Post/Author/DateTime	Post
the_narrator 02-02-06, 02:10 AM	So this may be a rather dumb question, but I'm working on a character for some upcoming game, and since you guys are way better at this optimizing deal, I was hoping one or some of you could take some time to give me a hand. The whole concept for the character is that he's a sellsword, and prizes flexability over all in his fighting style. To this end, he carries a bastard sword, since he can easilly use it two-handed for large damage, or one-handed if need be. He also uses a polearm for some reach, but that's not important. This character likes to move around while he fights, and uses dexterity to dodge attacks rather than heavy armor. My problem is effectively optimizing this character. Normally, I could go the standard swash/fighter/CoCL build and get some hefty damage with a rapier or thinblade, but this guy carries around a big chunk of man-metal. Basically I'm looking for a build that can combine nice dodginess with a fairly good damage output. Books available are core, complete, and anything online I can show my GM. Race isn't a big issue, but I'd like to stay with something semi-human, and I'm leaning more towards the "fair" races (Human, Elf, etc. Not a big fan of half-orc and trolls, but whatever). Being a sellsword, a high BAB would be nice. Some preliminary thoughts of my own are fighter (featy goodness)/ scout (mobility is nice)/ Iajitsu master (if his abilities work with a bastard sword).
Kuroi Kenshi 02-02-06, 02:50 AM	Otto the Bugbear has a bastard sword + buckler dextrous fighter build that can go from TWF to THF to sword and board on the fly, and do it all pretty well. I know it uses at least 1 level of exotic weaponmaster...You might be able to google it or PM him asking for it :O
WCH 02-02-06, 03:26 AM	Forget bastard sword. You want true flexibility? Check out this build (currently to lvl 12. I had a lvl 20 build that included Giantbane, Cavalry Charger and Formation Expert because it was just an exercise in squeezing tactical feats into one build, but I decided those three suck and left them out). Fighter 1 Dodge, Mobility, Power Attack Fighter 2 Improved Sunder Fighter 3 Improved Bull Rush Fighter 4 Spring Attack Fighter 5 Fighter 6 Elusive Target, Combat Brute Fighter 7 Fighter 8 Shock Trooper Fighter 9 Raptor School Fighter 10 Combat Expertise Fighter 11 Fighter 12 Whirlwind Attack, Improved Trip The sheer amount of combat options you get out of this is staggering. The only reason it comes close to working is lack of specialization -- once you take Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Improved Critical you end up pushing back some of the good stuff about 5 levels, and that just blows. A character using my build can do anything at any time. He will likely carry around 4 different weapons and use whichever he feels will best serve the situation. Note that if actually playing this, it's a good idea to get Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip early on. An adamantine halberd plus imp trip and imp sunder is freaking godly at lvl 6, but that means no combat brute, elusive target or shock trooper until a little later, and that sucks.
ff6shadow 02-02-06, 08:18 AM	Iajitsu master master works just fine with a bastard sword, since the rules consider a masterwork bastard sword and a Kanatan to be equivalent.
rilem 02-02-06, 09:54 AM	I do remember Otto's build was great, but can't recall the details. Iajutsu Master is a natural here: It allows you to finesse a katana (bastard sword), allowing you to add Int. to damage through Swashbuckler's Level 3 ability. You'll need Iajutsu Focus as a class skill, which means either OA Samurai, Sohei or Human Paragon. OASamurai4/Swash3/ExoticWeaponMaster1/IajutsuMaster10/ChampionofCorellon2 BAB 20, Int+Dex+(2xStr) to damage, Int + Dex to AC, Dex+Cha to Initiative.. Requires pretty high stats to really make it work, but does the job. If non-elven, sub the CoC levels for either Paladin (Cha to Saves) or Fighter (for feats).
the_narrator 02-02-06, 10:51 AM	Rilem, that's just the sort of thing I was looking for. Thanks alot!
nastynate 02-02-06, 11:38 AM	Swashbuckling, samurai, iajutsu duelist, elven champion. Wow, that guy gets around! I love the quirky builds like that, with great mechanical synergy, but nearly impossible back-ground stories. Start thinking about how you intend to put this guy's history together, unless you want your DM to lay the smack down. That's the really fun part in my eyes, tying the whole thing together in a coherent background that actually makes sense. Good luck. :D
Lord Likk 02-02-06, 12:20 PM	has anyone ever played one? you buy some skill items and one for cha (or worse yet, you've an artificer in the party), and suddenly your doing way, more sneak atk dmg than a rog of your lvl (you've still got all those nifty abilities and full b/a), and to EACH D6 you can add your cha mod. at 34 cha and a mediocre total of 10 dice from iaijutsu that's +120 dmg, double that since you can attack twice in a surprise round. get as many dice as you should be able to (not sure, myself, but +50 or so to iaijustsu focus is entirely feasible at lvl.20), and you're doing spell dmg twice in every surprise round. hell, it's epic spell dmg! if only to challenge yourself, i recommend the elven courtblade over the bs/katana (it's much more of a true katana, i think), and just combine high dex with weapon finesse from swashbuckler with power attack (leaping charge, too, if you can), dip into cocl, but concentrate more on scout and fighter. and for a primary prc . . . perhaps chameleon?
PhaedrusXY 02-02-06, 12:53 PM	The Shou Iaijutsu Swashbuckler in my sig might interest you.
Che 02-02-06, 02:03 PM	the Elven Courtblade is a two handed Greatsword that can be Finessed. Combined with either Swashbuckler (Int to damage) or Champion of Corellon (Dex to damage) it can be pretty lethal.
Khazra Reborn 02-02-06, 03:39 PM	The problem with courtblade is that it can't be used 1 handed IIRC making the thinblade (races of the wild & CW) better IHMO. And dont forget they both have a tasty 18-20 crit.
Otto the Bugbear 02-02-06, 07:05 PM	Thanks for the props guys. Lesser Tiefling - Ranger 2 / Fighter 2 / Cobra Strike Monk 2 / Thief-Acrobat 4 / Shou Disciple 3 / Dervish 7 was the original build. As you can see, no levels of EWM in there. However, dropping T-A back to 2 would work just fine and allow that level or two of EWM. Feats = Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Elusive Target, TWF, ITWF, Power Attack, Leap Attack. Remember, using unarmed strikes allows you to gain bonus damage on off-hand attacks with power attack. There's still room for Improved Buckler Defense as well, just at a later level. The other version involves using a Greatsword with unarmed strikes as the TWF attacks. Technically, you can use a buckler, a greatsword, and unarmed strikes all at once. This is using the FAQ statement involving TWF with greatsword and armor spikes, just extrapolated for unarmed strikes instead. This one can drop the fighter levels down to 1, and have room for one more class level somewhere. The one with EWM is the version I'm currently playing. Due to campaign restrictions, it'll end up as Ranger 6 / Monk 4 / Thief-Acrobat 4 / EWM 1. I'm not planning anything after that, as I'm not sure if the campaign -- or character -- will even make it that high. The levels are not in that order of course. Cheers Otto :)
Kuroi Kenshi 02-03-06, 01:07 AM	Cool. Thanks Otto!
Sang-Drax 02-03-06, 08:11 AM	Technically, you can use a buckler, a greatsword, and unarmed strikes all at once. This is using the FAQ statement involving TWF with greatsword and armor spikes, just extrapolated for unarmed strikes instead. This one can drop the fighter levels down to 1, and have room for one more class level somewhere. Maybe I've asked this before to you, otto, but, if I did, I don't remember what you said. Don't you think that the existence of the Axespike feat (RoS) more or less nerfs this tactic? I mean, it's a feat that allows you to make a secondary attack with your armor spikes while wielding a greataxe.
the_narrator 02-04-06, 03:09 AM	Alrighty, so here is what I'm looking at for a build so far: Human Paragon2/Fighter2/Swash3/ExoticWeaponMaster1/IajutsuMaster10/ChampionofCorellon2 I subbed out Samurai in favor of Human Paragon and Fighter for feats, and because Samurai didn't really fit the flavor I was going for. My only real question now is why CoCL? With a bastard sword, I don't think one would get much out of it? Unless I somehow convinced my GM to modify the class for a different diety. Hmmm, I say! So, any suggestions on what to do instead of CoCL? Templates, maybe? Tiefling will net me some extra dex, and I could sacrifice a feat (via dropping a Human Paragon level) and pick up Half-Dragon, which would get me a pretty nice boost, since it buffs strength and inteligence (and dexterity, I think). Would I still qualify for Human Paragon if I took Half-Dragon (I know I qualify for Half-dragon Paragon)? EDIT: Stupid mistake on my part, CoCL would have to be modifyed to work with Human Paragon, or just be taken out completely from the build!
The Wild Rover 02-04-06, 03:56 AM	if you're allowed to use dragon magazine material then you could take monk 2 instead of champion and take kung fu genius, that way you'd have int to AC and evasion (and a random stunning fist here or there, if you wanna be the badass and take care of things without even touching your sword)
Sang-Drax 02-04-06, 10:00 AM	Just to ruin the party - bastard sword is not an elligible weapon for Elegant Strike. if you're allowed to use dragon magazine material then you could take monk 2 instead of champion and take kung fu genius, that way you'd have int to AC and evasion (and a random stunning fist here or there, if you wanna be the badass and take care of things without even touching your sword) Or you could just pick Carmendine (sp?) Monk from Champions of Valor, which is not only an official source, but also better than Kung Fu Genius.
fnord 02-04-06, 11:59 AM	Just to ruin the party - bastard sword is not an elligible weapon for Elegant Strike. Iajutsu master makes Katana (aka MW bastard sword) Finessable, so it works.
Slyver 02-04-06, 12:50 PM	Just to ruin the party - bastard sword is not an elligible weapon for Elegant Strike. You could house rule the katana to be finnessable, as imo, it most definitely should be. 1 level of Iajitsu master is awesome, more is not bad, it is a good class, there are better though. You can not take human paragon and CoCL in the same build without at least one level of half-elf paragon. Also, CoCL does not allow the dex to damage with a bastard sword, the class is completey incompatible with the build. I also see no reason to not take a 3rd level of human paragon if you already have two (although I think OA samurai 2 is better). +2 to any stat, +1 to fort and reflex, good skill points, +1 BAB d8 hd. Thats a damn good level. Take it. Slyver
fnord 02-04-06, 01:59 PM	I would replace CoCL with the 3rd level of Human Paragon and something else; +2 ability score and +1 BAB, especially combined with the good skills, is too good to pass up. For the other level, Monk (with Kung-Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk) is a good option. If you REALLY don't want the last Human Paragon level, then 2 levels of Paladin (for Cha to saves) is possibly the best class choice. Phrenic, Shadow Creature, Half-Fey, and (BoED) Half-Celestial are good templates +2 LA templates. 1 level of Iajitsu master is awesome, more is not bad, it is a good class, there are better though. "there are better"? While strictly true, IM is probably the best class for his style of charater, bar none. The classes better than IM are mostly full caster.
Otto the Bugbear 02-05-06, 08:11 AM	Maybe I've asked this before to you, otto, but, if I did, I don't remember what you said. Don't you think that the existence of the Axespike feat (RoS) more or less nerfs this tactic? I mean, it's a feat that allows you to make a secondary attack with your armor spikes while wielding a greataxe. Well, small tangent for this thread... Hmm. No you didn't mention it that I've ever noticed. (Which is to say you may have, and I just didn't see the post.) This is very interesting. It certainly seems to imply that a feat would be required, which is a direct contradiction to the FAQ statement on this issue. However, seeing as it's in a book and not just the FAQ, I'd lean toward this nerfing the tactic. Now, instead of the tactic being available to everyone, you'd need a feat (likely custom unless you want to use a Great Axe) to do what used to be available to everyone. Everyone with the proper feat selection anyway (TWF). Thinking about it, Axespike makes no mention of requireing TWF. So, in a build that couldn't qualify for TWF, this would be a good way to get that extra attack. So, the worst part is that there's only one feat that allows this to work. And that requires you use a Great Axe, and spend a feat on Weapon Focus: Armor Spikes. :yuck: It's easy enough to copy this feat for other weapons, but there are too many rules sticklers to count on that. Cheers Otto :)
Galahad_Knight 02-05-06, 08:23 AM	I always loved the way the bastard sword ends up working out in the game. "I think I'd like to spend a feat in order to do less damage." Think about it. Using the bastard sword in both hands nets you an extra 50% of your strength bonus and double power-attack benefit. Whereas using up a feat ot use it one handed gets you...nothing. +1 point of average damage over a longsword. You're better off keeping the longsword and specializing in it. One feat traded for two points of damage. Plus you can still use a longsword in both hands. Seriously, if you want flex, drop the bastard sword. The longsword isa just as versitile and only does 1 less point of damage on average. This frees up a feat you can devote to adding flexability to yoru character design.
Sang-Drax 02-05-06, 04:44 PM	Well, I'm about to leave, so, I'll leav just a short post. Elegant Strike is the CoCL power to add Dex to damage. i wasn't referring to Insightful Strike from Swa3. Otto, we'll talk over the spikes issue later on. Cheers!
the_narrator 02-05-06, 08:21 PM	Gallahad: One word: flavor. A bastard sword fits this character concept better than a long sword, easy as that. Plus, the Exotic Weapon Master gives you the ability to do TWICE your str. mod in damage with a one-handed exotic weapon wielded in two hands. Combine that with all the other stuff from iajitsu master and swashbuckler, and it's deffinitely a better choice than a long sword for this build. Add in the fact that an enchanted bastard sword is a much more reasonable thing to find than an enchanted katana, and you see why I'm going for this build.
FiestFan 02-05-06, 10:26 PM	If you're set on Bastard Sword, you might try to wriggle a couple levels of Ronin into the build. Human Paragon 2/Fighter1/Swash3/ExoticWeaponMaster1/IajutsuMaster10/Ronin 3, for example. :)
mellowship 02-06-06, 01:25 AM	So this may be a rather dumb question, but I'm working on a character for some upcoming game, and since you guys are way better at this optimizing deal, I was hoping one or some of you could take some time to give me a hand. The whole concept for the character is that he's a sellsword, and prizes flexability over all in his fighting style. To this end, he carries a bastard sword, since he can easilly use it two-handed for large damage, or one-handed if need be. He also uses a polearm for some reach, but that's not important. This character likes to move around while he fights, and uses dexterity to dodge attacks rather than heavy armor. My problem is effectively optimizing this character. Normally, I could go the standard swash/fighter/CoCL build and get some hefty damage with a rapier or thinblade, but this guy carries around a big chunk of man-metal. Basically I'm looking for a build that can combine nice dodginess with a fairly good damage output. Books available are core, complete, and anything online I can show my GM. Race isn't a big issue, but I'd like to stay with something semi-human, and I'm leaning more towards the "fair" races (Human, Elf, etc. Not a big fan of half-orc and trolls, but whatever). Being a sellsword, a high BAB would be nice. Some preliminary thoughts of my own are fighter (featy goodness)/ scout (mobility is nice)/ Iajitsu master (if his abilities work with a bastard sword). What level are you starting at, and what are your stats? If your character concept is a guy who moves all around the battlefield, here's a thought: Scout 8/Fighter 2/Dervish 10. With Oversized TWF, you can dance around with two bastard swords, doing an extra 2d6 skirmish damage on every attack. This build gets +18 BAB and lots of skillmonkey goodness. Only catch is, you need a Str about as high as your Dex.