A different kind of min\maxing... [Archive] - Wizards Community

A different kind of min\maxing... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ertai Planeswalker
06-23-03, 11:29 AM Hi all,

I was wondering about a different style of min/maxingthan jsut number crunching. What can you people do, in creating the best all rounded char for a party? (One man party so to speak). Can you come up with a build that allows the character to do as much as possible without getting sucky at it? Pleas try to keep it a bit normal when it comes to classes, especially Prc's so that i might even get to play it in one of my friend's campaigns. (they're quite picky on the role/rollplaying axis)

Let's say we do a build for 7th level, 14th level, and 20th level. Anything WotC goes. Point buy 28 for stats, Gp as per level according to the dmg. I'm not very good at this, so i'm not posting anything myself but i'm dying to see what you guys can come up with.
Sarol'Veldruk
06-23-03, 12:12 PM Vendui,

Well that sound like a nice idea, but I want the remember you, that D&D is "primarelly" a group game.... : teach:
To your charcter... I haven't build one, but it seams, that you have some possiblities:

For one there is the rouge, with a lot of skillpoints and a large skill selection
The Cleric is afaik the strongest chr in D&D, but also need the point to build it, what will be rather difficult with PB28...
And then of course there is the bard, which can almost everthing, but someone else does it better....

I general i would advise a high con score, that you would die after the first hit....

Aluve
Sarol'Veldruk

PS. Otherwise you could play NeverWinternights on PC, if you want have a single char campaingn..... :angel:
Kinson Shaldyr
06-23-03, 02:38 PM I would think about Ftr3/Rog3/Wiz1/Duelist2/Bladesinger10 as an Elf (thus negating the Wizard levels).

7th level - Ftr3/Rog3/Wiz1
You gain 2 fighter feats to help with acquiring the PrCs. Frankly if you can swing it past your DM, dump Fighter-3 and pick up Ranger-1 to gain Ambidexterity for Duelist plus Track. But this build doesn't emphasize two-weapon fighting at all. And this is still in theme with a foresty fighter/mage/thief type.
The 1st level arcane casting ability that is INT based for bladesinger. This also will let you gain shield to help a great deal with your required high AC.
Rogue trap detection & disabling. Never flatfooted, +2d6 sneak attack (you'll never flank, but you can surprise) and Evasion which you'll need since everything will be aimed at you.
Trick here is with Dodge (prereq), Shield, a high dex (+3?), a chain shirt (+4) you're likely to see an AC of around 24 intially. Also don't discount Expertise...here it's not only a prereq for Bladesinger, but almost vital.
Keep in mind that a loss in attack for a gain in AC is actually -more than- worth it in this situation as you'll likely always be outnumbered. Which is more valuable..you hitting them 1-2 times a round more easily or them missing you 4-5 times per round with flanking attacks?
14th level - Ftr3/Rog3/Wiz1/Duelist2/Bladesinger5
Now you can deal 2d6 straight damage with your rapier from the Duelist-2.
INT modifiers stacks with your AC twice from Duelist-1 & Bladesinger-1.
Bladesinger adds so many useful combat oriented spell buffs it's ridiculous and can start casting one per round as part of his full attack action for free at Bladesinger-6 (which you gain at lv15). Spells like haste, shield, mage armor (since you will not be using the chain shirt anymore), mirror image, blur, bull's strength, cat's grace & greater magic weapon will make you capable of standing alone against almost anything of your level.
Basically this isn't the damaging dealing build of all time, it's not even close, but it IS a very high AC build with readily available spell buffs for boosting your AC into the 40's by level 15 and 50's by level 21 (Duelist-7) with a very high BAB.
For 21st level...just finish out Bladesinger to 10, more spells & extra high BAB attack and start completing Duelist. Eventually you'll have a class that can effectively "1 them to death" with smaller attacks from a character that will likely only be hit on a 20 from equal level characters. Should give you an all around character as far as skills as well. You won't have healing spells though unless you change out the race for Half-Elf and the wizard-1 class for 2 levels of Bard.

I hope that all helps :)
LordShade
06-23-03, 02:43 PM I developed some fairly strong Fighter/Mage/Cleric builds. You can find them on the old boards. Good melee combat, spell selection, direct damage, healing, and special abilities, all rolled up into one. Your only weakness is sneaking around and disarming traps, but since you'll have a really high charisma, getting a rogue cohort shouldn't be hard.
Snow Savant
06-23-03, 05:50 PM Two of the most solid, although not spectacular builds for an all-around character are the following:

Bard20

Bard10 / TempleRaider10

The latter build gives the base Bard the Traps ability, full UMD skill progression, +3d6 SA, Clerical spells, strong saves along with bonuses, and a continuation of tons of skill points. You miss out on high Bard spells, but you do get up to the level Clerical spells. BAB is +14. Take Cosmopolitan: Perform to amp your Bard Song, and you are that much more powerful.

Again, a solid JOAT build that's even more well-rounded than a trad Bard .... but instead of dumping WIS, you need to have a WIS of 14.

Snow :cloud9:
Neonsamurai
06-23-03, 06:15 PM Cleric

Domains : magic, any

wield skill is your best friend. with your spells you can either be an artillery platform, melee machine, utility spellcaster or even a formidable archer !

magic domain grants you access to all scrolls and spell trigger items. if you take the education feat you can take any knowledge skill as class skill, though the knowledge domain might be a better choice.

the only thing that a plain cleric lacks off are skill points ...
LordShade
06-23-03, 06:20 PM Hey,

Not bad, Snow. I'll remember that Bard/Temple Raider - it's a good one! Decent fighting, arcane magic, divine magic, and sneak attack/traps all rolled into one.

What if we tweak it:

Ranger1/Bard8/HL3/Temple Raider8

Now a +16 BAB, but you lost some magic from your bard.

Another one that could work:

Rog3/Brd7/AT2/HL8

Less SA dice, but more miscellaneous abilities. A celestial companion can be very useful for a char travelling solo.
Funny Slaughter
06-23-03, 07:12 PM Rog3/Brd7/AT2/HL8

HL8 is just sub-par, quitting at 5th and advancing caster-level via more trickster to 7th is much better and gives you an additional level to play.

i would like to whrow my actual build into the pit:

feral rogue3/barb2/DM2/HL3/RSB9

especially the spellcasting aspect of the RSB makes it a superior class.
its a more direct approach and less skilly compared to the trickster, but with a huge amount of firepower.

good at level 7, great at level 14...
( i think the bard/trickster would have a really hard time at lvl7)

on the other hand:
try to keep it a bit normal when it comes to classes, especially Prc's

ehm, next point please :cool:

i think one should decide in one direction, there is not much beside a fighter/HL-approach that can survive alone and secondary spellcasting has to be included.

the other option is going for skillpoints, and thats the bard.

its questionable that a bard/trickser will survive long time against my fighting machine, but another question would be how long my barbarian could talk with the kings guests without getting executed.
and one-man-party-play is sometimes a bit different from slaughtering everything...

gs
Funny (slaughters everything, even if solo)
MikeN
06-23-03, 09:03 PM Shugenja4(fire)/Paladin2/Hospitalier3/Windwalker10/Contemplative1 (or Mindbender if a DM balks at being extremely devoted to a chaotic deity as a lawful character...)

FR rules let only paladins of Sune break the "one step" alignment rule of the setting, but I think Shaundakul would be a good choice as well -- you are the knight errant type, traveling around to find injustice and smite it...

(plagiarized from LordShade's version and modified slightly)

For your ride skill, take ride (dragon) and then get Leadership and a gold dragon cohort. Since you're lawful with really high charisma, you should get along fine -- and since you're into fire spells but worship a deity of the air and travel, this is very appropriate as gold dragons have affinities for fire and also fly and travel...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ertai Planeswalker 06-23-03, 11:29 AM	Hi all, I was wondering about a different style of min/maxingthan jsut number crunching. What can you people do, in creating the best all rounded char for a party? (One man party so to speak). Can you come up with a build that allows the character to do as much as possible without getting sucky at it? Pleas try to keep it a bit normal when it comes to classes, especially Prc's so that i might even get to play it in one of my friend's campaigns. (they're quite picky on the role/rollplaying axis) Let's say we do a build for 7th level, 14th level, and 20th level. Anything WotC goes. Point buy 28 for stats, Gp as per level according to the dmg. I'm not very good at this, so i'm not posting anything myself but i'm dying to see what you guys can come up with.
Sarol'Veldruk 06-23-03, 12:12 PM	Vendui, Well that sound like a nice idea, but I want the remember you, that D&D is "primarelly" a group game.... : teach: To your charcter... I haven't build one, but it seams, that you have some possiblities: For one there is the rouge, with a lot of skillpoints and a large skill selection The Cleric is afaik the strongest chr in D&D, but also need the point to build it, what will be rather difficult with PB28... And then of course there is the bard, which can almost everthing, but someone else does it better.... I general i would advise a high con score, that you would die after the first hit.... Aluve Sarol'Veldruk PS. Otherwise you could play NeverWinternights on PC, if you want have a single char campaingn..... :angel:
Kinson Shaldyr 06-23-03, 02:38 PM	I would think about Ftr3/Rog3/Wiz1/Duelist2/Bladesinger10 as an Elf (thus negating the Wizard levels). 7th level - Ftr3/Rog3/Wiz1 You gain 2 fighter feats to help with acquiring the PrCs. Frankly if you can swing it past your DM, dump Fighter-3 and pick up Ranger-1 to gain Ambidexterity for Duelist plus Track. But this build doesn't emphasize two-weapon fighting at all. And this is still in theme with a foresty fighter/mage/thief type. The 1st level arcane casting ability that is INT based for bladesinger. This also will let you gain shield to help a great deal with your required high AC. Rogue trap detection & disabling. Never flatfooted, +2d6 sneak attack (you'll never flank, but you can surprise) and Evasion which you'll need since everything will be aimed at you. Trick here is with Dodge (prereq), Shield, a high dex (+3?), a chain shirt (+4) you're likely to see an AC of around 24 intially. Also don't discount Expertise...here it's not only a prereq for Bladesinger, but almost vital. Keep in mind that a loss in attack for a gain in AC is actually -more than- worth it in this situation as you'll likely always be outnumbered. Which is more valuable..you hitting them 1-2 times a round more easily or them missing you 4-5 times per round with flanking attacks? 14th level - Ftr3/Rog3/Wiz1/Duelist2/Bladesinger5 Now you can deal 2d6 straight damage with your rapier from the Duelist-2. INT modifiers stacks with your AC twice from Duelist-1 & Bladesinger-1. Bladesinger adds so many useful combat oriented spell buffs it's ridiculous and can start casting one per round as part of his full attack action for free at Bladesinger-6 (which you gain at lv15). Spells like haste, shield, mage armor (since you will not be using the chain shirt anymore), mirror image, blur, bull's strength, cat's grace & greater magic weapon will make you capable of standing alone against almost anything of your level. Basically this isn't the damaging dealing build of all time, it's not even close, but it IS a very high AC build with readily available spell buffs for boosting your AC into the 40's by level 15 and 50's by level 21 (Duelist-7) with a very high BAB. For 21st level...just finish out Bladesinger to 10, more spells & extra high BAB attack and start completing Duelist. Eventually you'll have a class that can effectively "1 them to death" with smaller attacks from a character that will likely only be hit on a 20 from equal level characters. Should give you an all around character as far as skills as well. You won't have healing spells though unless you change out the race for Half-Elf and the wizard-1 class for 2 levels of Bard. I hope that all helps :)
LordShade 06-23-03, 02:43 PM	I developed some fairly strong Fighter/Mage/Cleric builds. You can find them on the old boards. Good melee combat, spell selection, direct damage, healing, and special abilities, all rolled up into one. Your only weakness is sneaking around and disarming traps, but since you'll have a really high charisma, getting a rogue cohort shouldn't be hard.
Snow Savant 06-23-03, 05:50 PM	Two of the most solid, although not spectacular builds for an all-around character are the following: Bard20 Bard10 / TempleRaider10 The latter build gives the base Bard the Traps ability, full UMD skill progression, +3d6 SA, Clerical spells, strong saves along with bonuses, and a continuation of tons of skill points. You miss out on high Bard spells, but you do get up to the level Clerical spells. BAB is +14. Take Cosmopolitan: Perform to amp your Bard Song, and you are that much more powerful. Again, a solid JOAT build that's even more well-rounded than a trad Bard .... but instead of dumping WIS, you need to have a WIS of 14. Snow :cloud9:
Neonsamurai 06-23-03, 06:15 PM	Cleric Domains : magic, any wield skill is your best friend. with your spells you can either be an artillery platform, melee machine, utility spellcaster or even a formidable archer ! magic domain grants you access to all scrolls and spell trigger items. if you take the education feat you can take any knowledge skill as class skill, though the knowledge domain might be a better choice. the only thing that a plain cleric lacks off are skill points ...
LordShade 06-23-03, 06:20 PM	Hey, Not bad, Snow. I'll remember that Bard/Temple Raider - it's a good one! Decent fighting, arcane magic, divine magic, and sneak attack/traps all rolled into one. What if we tweak it: Ranger1/Bard8/HL3/Temple Raider8 Now a +16 BAB, but you lost some magic from your bard. Another one that could work: Rog3/Brd7/AT2/HL8 Less SA dice, but more miscellaneous abilities. A celestial companion can be very useful for a char travelling solo.
Funny Slaughter 06-23-03, 07:12 PM	Rog3/Brd7/AT2/HL8 HL8 is just sub-par, quitting at 5th and advancing caster-level via more trickster to 7th is much better and gives you an additional level to play. i would like to whrow my actual build into the pit: feral rogue3/barb2/DM2/HL3/RSB9 especially the spellcasting aspect of the RSB makes it a superior class. its a more direct approach and less skilly compared to the trickster, but with a huge amount of firepower. good at level 7, great at level 14... ( i think the bard/trickster would have a really hard time at lvl7) on the other hand: try to keep it a bit normal when it comes to classes, especially Prc's ehm, next point please :cool: i think one should decide in one direction, there is not much beside a fighter/HL-approach that can survive alone and secondary spellcasting has to be included. the other option is going for skillpoints, and thats the bard. its questionable that a bard/trickser will survive long time against my fighting machine, but another question would be how long my barbarian could talk with the kings guests without getting executed. and one-man-party-play is sometimes a bit different from slaughtering everything... gs Funny (slaughters everything, even if solo)
MikeN 06-23-03, 09:03 PM	Shugenja4(fire)/Paladin2/Hospitalier3/Windwalker10/Contemplative1 (or Mindbender if a DM balks at being extremely devoted to a chaotic deity as a lawful character...) FR rules let only paladins of Sune break the "one step" alignment rule of the setting, but I think Shaundakul would be a good choice as well -- you are the knight errant type, traveling around to find injustice and smite it... (plagiarized from LordShade's version and modified slightly) For your ride skill, take ride (dragon) and then get Leadership and a gold dragon cohort. Since you're lawful with really high charisma, you should get along fine -- and since you're into fire spells but worship a deity of the air and travel, this is very appropriate as gold dragons have affinities for fire and also fly and travel...