Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kaladin 05-29-04, 04:33 PM	A Diplomatic Solution needed? I have an idea for a character concept but I need some help with the build. The character is going to be focusing on diplomacy and spell casting. Spells and feats that aid diplomacy are what I'm Aiming for. The character should be of Good Alignment but Neutral is ok. Stats Rolled: (I can choose one of these sets) 9,11,12,15,15,17 or 10,13,14,15,15,16 Spells I'm Looking for: Charm Person Charm Monster Hold Person Hold Monster Dominate Person Dominate Monster Mirror Immage Minor Image Major Image Shadow Conjuration Shadow Conjuration, Greater Shadow Evocation Shadow Evocation, Greater Blur Displacement Polymorph Summon Monster ? (any 2, one high level the other low) The idea behind this is I want the character to have things fight for him like charmed, convinced, summoned or Illusionary creatures. I also don't want this guy to be useless to the rest of the party while they’re in combat. I don't mind it not being my strong suit. Basically I don't want "Ok I'll sit here you guys fight" thing happening. BAB is the least of my concern so 1/2 is fine; in fact I picture this guy having 1/2. Skills I'm Looking For: Spellcraft* Concentration* Know(arcana)* Diplomacy * Bluff SenseMotive Know(Nobil) * Are important to me, the others provide a synergy and need not be maxed out. I was also thinking of taking Use Magic Device if I went the bard route but it is not important. ----------- Basically what class(es) do you suggest I take? I'm debating between Bard, Sorcerer and Wizard. Bards progress way to slow, Wizards don't have diplomacy and sorcerers... Well Sorcerer I can manage to squeeze Diplomacy into a class skill if I ask my DMs. Feat-wise I think Skill Focus (Diplomacy) then other than that I'm not sure. As far as prestige classes are concerned I'm looking at maybe 1 level of mind bender. Thx in advance for any help.
Ramses III 05-29-04, 04:44 PM	If you have Unearthed Arcana you can take Human Paragon and at the cost of a caster level get Diplomacy (or any one other skill) as a class skill for all of your classes.
amalcon 05-29-04, 04:52 PM	Sounds like you're definitely looking for a bard. You've got most of the stuff you're looking for in that spell list. Notable losses are Polymorph and a couple of higher level spells; gains include this is the only way you're getting the skills + most of the casting you want. Nobody's going to complain about attack/damage bonuses. A cleric might also be a good choice -- diplomacy is a class skill for them. Pick a god of trade or something.
Ramses III 05-29-04, 05:06 PM	I had considered a cleric too, but cleric has almost none of the spells on your list. As to taking a bard, also note the synergy of Charisma being your casting stat, and that (IIRC) Eagle's Splendor is on your spell list for Bard. And finally, fascinate/Suggestion using bardic music can be pretty powerful without even having to cast a spell.
Kaladin 05-29-04, 08:52 PM	Yeah that is pretty much what I thought that bard was the best choice for me. The only other alternative was Sorcerer be cause we are lenient with them. With Sorcerer I could pick up Diplomacy or Use Magic Device with them in trade for bluff as a class skill. But I still think Bard is the better way. Polymorph I could just use from scroll or wand with use magic device, the wand being the better option, our party has a Mystic Thurge Item Creator so eventually that wont be a problem. Also the greater shadow spells I don't need them that baddly. So I guess my next question is how would you suggest I build the guy? What race, feats and prst. classes should I look at.
amalcon 05-29-04, 11:50 PM	If you're going to use this in an actual campaign, I'd suggest doing races and feats according to the character concept you've got in mind. Coincidentally, that means Human race (it's tough to be a diplomat as a minority), which is probably the best one mechanically. There are no real good diplomat prestige classes (spymaster maybe could probably be used for diplomacy). I'd suggest going with straight Bard--your allies will love the attack/damage bonuses. Feats are entirely up to you. Some fitting ones for you are Skill Focus: Diplomacy, several of the two-in-two feats, Leadership, and Eschew Materials (sometimes you might have to leave behind your weapons, including component pouch, to go into a diplomatic situation. If it gets ugly, having spells anyway is handy). You do want some combat potential. It's my opinion that, though melee bards got the hookup in 3.5, archer bards are still better. First level, take Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot (otherwise your comrades will not be happy until you get precise shot). If you really want to make this build as powerful as possible, I'll provide this for you, but again I don't suggest that you use it in a real game, unless it's the sort of setting where this is encouraged. PGtF = Player's Guide to Faerun S&S = Song & Silence CD = Complete Divine Patron: Mystra Human 1. Bard - Dodge, Combat Casting 2. Cleric - Magic and Illusion domains 3. Cleric - Mobility 4. Cleric - 5. Cleric - 6. Cleric - Endurance 7. Spelldancer - I've heard this is reprinted in CD, but the version I know is in Magic of Faerun 8. Virtuoso - From S&S. Note that it doesn't say that you have to raise an ARCANE spellcasting class with Virtuoso levels 9. Virtuoso - Initiate of Mystra (PGtF) 10.Virtuoso - 11.Virtuoso - 12.Virtuoso - Extend Spell 13.Virtuoso - 14.Virtuoso - 15.Virtuoso - Persistent Spell 16.Virtuoso - 17.Virtuoso - Fill in the last 3 levels with pretty much anything You'll need decent wis and cha, and half-decent int (some pretty steep skill req's). With this build, you have lots of persistent spells (thanks to spelldancer+lesser restoration). Persistent Divine Power gives you full BAB. You've got 19th level clerical spellcasting, with some extra illusions to boot, and Anyspell in your main list to pick up sorc/wiz spells of 5th level and below. Under any reasonable 3.5 conversion of Virtuoso, you've got most of the bardic music abilities, plus some cool extra ones. Again, I'd suggest not using this build, as your character concept was probably not a dancing cleric.
Kaladin 05-30-04, 01:07 AM	Thanks for the build I enjoyed looking at it, but your correct I pretty sure I wont use it. My focus is: - 0 combat - Range combat minimal - Summoning - Extreme focus on Charming/Dominate - Extreme focus on Diplomacy - Minor spell casting combat wise - The bard song will come in handy for the summon monsters. What is the best perform skill to take do you think? I see my guy much more of a talker than a singer but we already have a bard that give speeches. (Our group still likes combat but we're at the stage where we're transitioning to RP focus).
Dauntless 05-30-04, 02:32 AM	FOR GOD'S SAKE MAN, PSIONICS! The Psion[Telepath] is exactly what you want. Bluff, diplomacy, sense motive are all class skills, plus all the knowledge skills like the wizard gets. 3rd level psion[Telepath] Feats- Psycrystal Affinity [Friendly] (+3 Diplomacy) Improved Psicrystal [Liar] (+3) Bluff Expanded Knowledge [Astral Construct] Powers: 1- Astral Contruct (extra power) 1- Attraction 1- Charm, Psionic 1- Energy Ray 1- Mindlink 1- Telempathic Projection 2- Read Thoughts 2- Suggestion, Psionic Feats: Your psicrystal will give you an unnamed +3 to both major 'face' stats. This will stack with later skill focus or any other buffs. Expanded knowledge gives you access to the very powerful and versatile (and most importantly, eminently scalable) Astral Construct (think summon monster 1-9 all rolled into one!) Powers: Combat- Energy Ray and Astral Construct are your main forms of combat. Touch attack with no save using energy ray, augmentable as much as you like, 1pp per d6+1 of damage. You can do ANY kind of energy damage with it. Non-combat. You can charm and suggest, read people's thoughts, implant subconsiouc attractions, alter people's moods... what more could you want?? Planning ahead: Pick up Inquisitor (blow your psionic focus to get +10 sense motive checks) at level 5 and you are set to take Thrallherd at level 6, getting you loyal followers. Your thrall will make a great bodyguard.
Kaladin 05-30-04, 09:58 PM	Originally posted by Dauntless FOR GOD'S SAKE MAN, PSIONICS! ... Well that does sound very interesting; we play 3.5 and I barely have access to the 3.0 psionics book (i.e. I don't own it). I'm also very unfamiliar with psionics in general. We tend to keep psionics out of our games because we don't want to deal with another set of sub-rules. I know they are extremely similar but to be fun for the player the DM would need to explain the psionics character, insert psi items and other psi NPCs. However I wouldn't mind giving it a try; if you’re up to it could you explain the basics of the psionics rules pertaining to this character concept. Basically what would I need to know? (I've read the psionics book (3.0) a little less than a year ago. I understand the points but I understand in 3.5 they got rid of psi attacks and defenses. What exactly does astral construct do and how does it work?
crazysamaritan 05-30-04, 11:50 PM	There are two methods I'm aware of for diplomacy, the one is perfect good diplomacy, which is basically making everyone like you, therefore agree with you. The second is evil domination, where spells like dominate are used, Mindbender "Makes Friends" ability, and the psionic Thrallherd is found. Good Diplomacy: Human Bard (H)uman, (C)haracter Level, (P)overty feats H1 Sacred Vow C1 Vow of Poverty P2 Nymph's Kiss C3 Skill Focus(Diplomacy) P4 Nimbus of Light C6 Leadership P6 Vow of Nonviolence (+4 to non-damage spells) P8 Vow of Peace C9 Spell Focus (Enchantment) P10 Words of Creation 5 ranks in Bluff, Sense Motive, Knowledge(Royalty & Nobility), Intimidate Max on Diplomacy Take 1 level of Mindbender when you get 3rd level spells (+6 to one skill) This build (Assuming 17 Cha) gives you a Diplomacy of +37. +37 Diplomacy means you can take a full-round action during combat, roll an 8, and make 1 enemy friendly. As well as a High Spell Save and an additional +4 to Facinate. As for the Evil version, I'm trying to make a non-psionic version myself. edit: miscounted Diplomacy bonus
handforged 05-31-04, 12:35 AM	crazysamaritan, you also left out the fact that a VoP build gets an extra Exalted feat at first level. Nymph's Kiss would be optimal here for skill points. ~hf
crazysamaritan 05-31-04, 12:37 AM	No, I'm not, it's at every even level. First chance is 2nd level.
Kaladin 05-31-04, 12:59 AM	Originally posted by crazysamaritan No, I'm not, it's at every even level. First chance is 2nd level. Actually handforged is correct if you manage to get VoP by level 1 (i.e. Human) you get a Exaulted Feat at level 1. Book of Exalted Deeds Bonus Exalted Feats: At 1st level, an ascetic gets a bonus exalted feat, and another bonus feat at 2nd level and every 2 levels thereafter. (Later it says) Thus, the bonus feat gained at 1st level is available only to humans who take both Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty at 1st level.
Dauntless 05-31-04, 02:27 AM	Originally posted by Kaladin Well that does sound very interesting; we play 3.5 and I barely have access to the 3.0 psionics book (i.e. I don't own it). I'm also very unfamiliar with psionics in general. We tend to keep psionics out of our games because we don't want to deal with another set of sub-rules. I know they are extremely similar but to be fun for the player the DM would need to explain the psionics character, insert psi items and other psi NPCs. However I wouldn't mind giving it a try; if you’re up to it could you explain the basics of the psionics rules pertaining to this character concept. Basically what would I need to know? (I've read the psionics book (3.0) a little less than a year ago. I understand the points but I understand in 3.5 they got rid of psi attacks and defenses. What exactly does astral construct do and how does it work? First and foremost, psionics was given a complete overhaul for 3.5 in the form of the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Lucky for you, it was also added to the SRD! Yay! [ Obligatory SRD Link! ] (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) The basics- Standard psionics assumes magic/psionics transparency. This means anti-magic fields affect psionics, Spell Resistance = Power resistance for avoiding psionic powers, etc. Easy to add in. The Psion uses intelligence as your primary manifesting (fancy word to replace "casting") stat, and instead of bonus spells, you get bonus power points. Augmentation! This is the biggest addition! To offset the low number of powers known, the concept of augmentation was added. Many low level powers will give you additional effects if you pump more power points into them! This means the first level "Energy Ray" which normally does 1d6 damage for 1 PP can do more damage if you spend more PP. How does this apply to your summoning? Simple! A sorcerer would have to learn summon monster 1-9 seperately, whereas the Psion only needs to learn one power! Astral Construct Metacreativity (Creation) Level: Shaper 1 Display: Visual; see text Manifesting Time: 1 round Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Effect: One created astral construct Duration: 1 round/level (D) Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: No Power Points: 1 This power creates one 1st-level astral construct of solidified ectoplasm that attacks your enemies. It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. As a free action, you can mentally direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. The astral construct acts normally on the last round of the power’s duration and dissipates at the end of its turn. Astral constructs are not summoned; they are created on the plane you inhabit (using ectoplasm drawn from the Astral Plane). Thus, they are not subject to effects that hedge out or otherwise affect outsiders; they are constructs, not outsiders. Augment: For every 2 additional power points you spend, the level of the astral construct increases by one. See the party about augmentation? The most PP's you can spend on one power is equal to your level. A 3rd level caster would spend 3 PPs to bring out an Astral Construct 2. A 7th level caster could bring out an Astral Contruct 4 for 7 PPs. And you still only need to learn one power! As for the rest of your character... One other concept is that of psionic focus. Using a full round action, make a concentration check DC 20 to gain "focus". To maintain your focus requires no effort, you just have to have at least PP available. Many psionic feats are powered by expending your focus. One of them is the feat I mentioned before, Inquisitor. Inquisitor gives you a +10 to one sense motive check by expending your focus. Part 2: Your psicrystal. It's kinda like a familiar, but you need to spend a feat to get it. It is a fragment of your personality embodied in a small stone. Depending on the personality it gives you +3 to one skill. You can take "Improved Psicrystal" to add more personality fragments and thus more +3 bonuses. The Friendly personality adds to diplomacy, the Liar personality adds to bluff. Another feat related to the psicrystal which you may want later is "Psicrystal Containment". This will allow you to add a second focus to your psicrystal, meaning you'll be able to use Inquisitor twice in the same encounter without having to spend a full round to regain focus. Part 3: Powers! This is the fun part. You gain 3 powers at first level, then two powers each additional level. Your maximum level power is limited like a wizard (second level powers at 3rd, 3rd level powers at 5th, etc). Like a sorcerer however, you need to choose wisely. You will only need a few combat powers due to their extreme versatility. With Astral Construct (granted via the Expanded Knowledge feat, since it isn't normally on the Telepath list) and any energy power, you have a wide variety of forms of attack available to you. This will let you pick all the fun telepathic powers (Charm, Suggestion, Read Thoughts, etc) which is really what your character is focused on anyways, right? Part 4: Prestige Classes Now I suggested before the Thrallherd. This may seem definately non-good, since you are basically gaining unwilling followers through your powers, but hey, you can't be TOO much of a stickler for morality if you're running around charming people. You trade one caster level at the start to gain something akin to Leadership, except they are 100% loyal, and easily replaced if they die. If you're a good character, you should probably treat them well regardless. If you're less than good, they are more of just a disposable and renewable resource. If you don't go Thrallherd, you're probably best off just staying straight psion, simply becayse most of the others lose out on too many manifester levels or are combat oriented. Hope all that helps!
Kaladin 05-31-04, 03:12 AM	Originally posted by Dauntless ...Hope all that helps! Wow totaly did, thanks!!! Right after I posted the message asking for details, I went to look at the psionics portion of the SRD. Thanks to you I now understand most of what I read. Question is there a polymorph type psionics power? What about illution type spells, such as Minor/Major Image. Again thanks!
Cormulan 05-31-04, 04:35 AM	Polymorph style power = yes. Metamorphosis - 4th level Shaper Power Metamorphosis, Greater - 9th level Shaper Power However the use of either of these powers as a Telepath would require taking another Expanded Knowledge feat at an appropriate level. Illusion spells don't really appear in the Psi classes (correct me if I'm wrong).
Bond, James Bond 05-31-04, 07:09 AM	May i also suggest the "Smooth Talk" feat (Players guide to Faerun). With it, u just get a -5 penalty when trying to make a diplomacy check as a full round action (which you have to do basicialy in every combat or any situation where combat is about to break out) instead of the standard -10 penalty. And, BTW, nice work Dauntless on explaining the basics about psionics. Now I feel ready for my first psionic chracter as well:D
carnivore 05-31-04, 07:30 AM	i would also suggest that you use a template , preferably 1/2 fey as it is only a LA+2.But mainly for the fact that you get 14 spl like abilities by 20th lvl. The one you are looking for is right at the start, CHARM PERSON at will at 1st lvl!!!! it has many other benefits: 1)flight 2)ability increases(+2dex,+2wis,+4CHA -2con) check it out,with the level buyoff fron UA you would finish at lvl20just fine. dauntless is right about psion and astral construct,if you use psion with this template you are able to use psionics and have magic spl like abilities.
crazysamaritan 05-31-04, 07:39 AM	Originally posted by Kaladin Actually handforged is correct if you manage to get VoP by level 1 (i.e. Human) you get a Exaulted Feat at level 1. I had to go back to the Book, and I know what the problem is. In the text under Bonus feats, it lists being able to gain one at 1st level, but the authors forgot to include that as part of the table. Apologises all around. :bow: I don't have PGtF, so if Bond is right (and with a name like that, I'm not gonna argue;)) then if you roll an 18, they'll become Helpful instead.
catharz 05-31-04, 11:59 AM	Originally posted by Dauntless First and foremost, psionics was given a complete overhaul for 3.5 in the form of the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Lucky for you, it was also added to the SRD! Yay! [ Obligatory SRD Link! ] (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) Thanks, I dodn't know it had been updated! Lots of great stuff in there, and it is all considered both open and offician now... Including the DotF version of the Madness domain! There is also Hardening (a great spell, no crude puns please) and Undeath to death in its full glory. Epic material is now apparently core too :)
Kaladin 05-31-04, 03:22 PM	Originally posted by carnivore i would also suggest that you use a template , preferably 1/2 fey as it is only a LA+2.But mainly for the fact that you get 14 spl like abilities by 20th lvl. The one you are looking for is right at the start, CHARM PERSON at will at 1st lvl!!!! ... I don't have UA; didn't they do a web article on half-templates though somewhere on wizards.com? If anyone knows where I can find this half fey could you let me know, thanks.Originally posted by Bond, James Bond May i also suggest the "Smooth Talk" feat (Players guide to Faerun). ... Do you happen to know if this was released on the wizards site or where it came from in 3.0? Thanks!
Kaladin 05-31-04, 03:54 PM	Actually I just found the Smooth Talker feat in FRCS(3.0) and it is totaly different. Does it still have the same pre-reqs (i.e. none, besides regions)? Oh and I also found the article for the half-fey I was looking for, I was meaning Faytouched you can find it here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040319a [Edit: This is only a conversion to half-fey, I misunderstood the article.] The only thing I see wrong with this template (probably the half-fey as well) is that they gain butter-fly wings and having wings all the time doenst fit the RP behind this character. Other-wise I'd snap up the idea. Then I supose there is always the hat of disguise... lol. Actually now that I think about it, it would be a neat idea. The way I invision this person is a character looking to infiltrate governments and organizations. Work his way up to advisor to the king, why he does this is unclear in my my background history as of yet. Another interesting point is I was trying to figure out a way to work in the fact I had psionic powers and with the template it will make it a fun task explaining it.
Kaladin 05-31-04, 09:00 PM	Originally posted by carnivore i would also suggest that you use a template , preferably 1/2 fey as it is only a LA+2. Dang, the one I found I thought was the fey-touched but it is a conversion to half-fey. What does fey-touched get? I was planning on using the conversion template in the link I posted above.
Mel Kio 05-31-04, 10:09 PM	Herald and Joy cleric domains in the BOED both offer +4 sacred bonus to diplomacy as granted powers. Herald domain also gives fairly diplomatic spells. You also might look into the Emissary of Barachiel PrC, which is part diplomat and part alignment converter. Not sure if those are the direction you want to go but just another option. *just noticed Community domain in same book offers +2 competence bonus to diplomacy and calm emotions once per day too*
Kaladin 06-01-04, 02:16 AM	Actually over the course of these posts I think he'll end up being NN posibly with (NE tendancies). He doesn't seek to do evil however by dominating the mind of others, I can't see him as good. He seeks to become someone important, but is willing to wait. He also doesn't want to cause anyone any permenent harm or misfortune. He might only if there is realy absolutely no other way and only if the task is important enough to warant it.
Dauntless 06-01-04, 02:48 AM	Kaladin, just go Thrallherd then and treat your thralls nicely. Having a bunch of followers who revere you will do wonders for a telepath's self esteem! :angel:
Bond, James Bond 06-01-04, 08:29 AM	Originally posted by Kaladin Actually I just found the Smooth Talker feat in FRCS(3.0) and it is totaly different. Does it still have the same pre-reqs (i.e. none, besides regions)? Yes, they changed it (like most regional feats) in 3.5`s Players guide. Are not entirely sure about the prereqs, since I dont have books nows, but I think it still has only a regional prereq. Note that all regional feats in the Players Guide now can just be taken at level one, and that every character is only allowed to have one regional feat now.
catharz 06-01-04, 08:43 AM	Originally posted by Kaladin Dang, the one I found I thought was the fey-touched but it is a conversion to half-fey. What does fey-touched get? I was planning on using the conversion template in the link I posted above. By the Savage progressions articles, Half-fey Feytouched really rock. LA+0 = +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, +2 Charisma. Fey Type Medium size. Speed: 30 feet. Low-Light Vision Saving Throw Bonuses: A feytouched has a +4 racial bonus on saving throws against mind-affecting effects. Automatic Languages: Common, Sylvan. Bonus Languages: Elven, Gnome, Halfling. Favored Class: Bard or rogue. LA+1 = Charm person, immunities, skill bonuses LA+2 = Wis +2, Cha +2, immunity to enchantments, spell-like abilities, wings. Much better then either alone, and with no additional LA!
Kaladin 06-01-04, 12:13 PM	Originally posted by catharz By the Savage progressions articles, Half-fey Feytouched really rock. LA+0 = +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, +2 Charisma. Fey Type Medium size. Speed: 30 feet. Low-Light Vision Saving Throw Bonuses: A feytouched has a +4 racial bonus on saving throws against mind-affecting effects. Automatic Languages: Common, Sylvan. Bonus Languages: Elven, Gnome, Halfling. Favored Class: Bard or rogue. LA+1 = Charm person, immunities, skill bonuses LA+2 = Wis +2, Cha +2, immunity to enchantments, spell-like abilities, wings. Much better then either alone, and with no additional LA! I thought they only got charm after taking the full thing, since it is listed under spells. (i.e. spells is part of the first level). Unless FeyTouched get charm.