Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Qaetar 03-23-04, 11:31 PM	The purpose of this post is to discuss the balance level of the Rokugan Ninja class since it shows up in many builds (including my own), but I'm unsure of how widespread the acceptance of this class is. Points to consider: Full BAB, Strong Will - Few classes other than holy warriors or the Hexblade give both a 1/1 BAB and a Strong Will Save. Full SA progression - Obviously another thing people take Ninja for is that first level SA die without loss of BAB. Dodge Virtual feat at Level 1 - If you're taking Dodge, this beats Fighter 1 due to the SA die. Poison Use at Level 2 - A minor consideration considering the cost of poisons. Uncanny Dodge at Level 3 - Along with a SA die and +1 to two saves, this is a good level to take as well. Speed of Darkness at Level 4 - Bonus to Initiative - Always nice to have. Skill points of 4 per level. Any armor check penalty worse than 0 causes the loss of many class abilities. Alignment restriction. Personally, I think the strict armor restriction and the lack of a good Reflex save give it enough impetus to have full BAB and a good Will save. Also, the alignment restriction and skill points are about worth giving up in favor of the benefit of Will over Reflex for saves. All in all, I think the class is a little too front-end loaded but no worse than the Ranger (even in 3.5) or Monk. (Qaetar)
izaegraa 03-24-04, 12:00 AM	i could have swore i read an errata somewhere that changed it from good will to good reflex...i hope someone can find this out, as i would like to use it in an upcoming game, but im not sure where i seen it. that ruling might vhange your views a bit. may as well put my 2$ in...i like the nija class, but the balance im not so sure. the only thing balancing about it is its skill list / pts, as they arent nearly as nice as say a rogue, and misses a few key rogueish skills like UMD and traps. and the dodge feat is fixed, where a fighter gets to chose, which is more versitile. there are also few weapon proficiencies than a fighter, and the no armor makes you at best a secondary attacker ( but possibly the main dmg dealer ) of most parties. but, for melee SA builds, its really hard to beat ( btw those are fun to play ) izaegraa
FireAge 03-24-04, 07:00 AM	quote from: http://l5r.alderac.com/rpg/rules_rokugan_errata.html Page 40: Swapped values for Ninja’s “Ref Save” and “Will Save” columns. And the ninja can be found here: http://l5r.alderac.com/rpg/rokugan_ninja.pdf So no good will save anymore, a good reflex save instead like izaegraa said. I like the class, although it is a bit frontloaded. The lack of UMD is indeed a problem. I also believe they can't disarm traps with a CR >20 because only rogue's can. But it is indeed a great addition to get sneak attack with higher bab. No simple rogue16/fighter4, instead go rogue16/ninja4. anyway, just mho
Dowanroden 03-24-04, 08:37 AM	If a ninja is doing their job of espionage and assassination what need have they for Use Magic Device? Don't most of them tend to do something that would give away a person Hiding in a shadow? I do agree that not being able to effectively disarm traps can be something of a hinderance but then diarming a trap can be just as much a giveaway of your presence in a heavily protected castle as anything else, often better to circumvent than to go right through. You are a ninja, if you are invading a castle with a party it's most likely that you will be leading a party of ninja who are just as capable of going around an obstacle or trap as you. Additionally I wouldn't call the class front-loaded, just front-heavy. At least I wouldn't as compared to some of the classes in 3rd Edition. The 3rd Edition Ranger practically got all it's class abilities in the first 4 levels. Here you don't get the last Ninja ability until 12th level. I'd also say this is a closer Ninja than the recently published Ninja in Dragon 318. Skimming it I felt that Ninja was more a Fighter/Monk/Psionicist with an inferiority complex. The Rokugani Ninja is balanced just fine in my book, much better than Dragon's Ninja for sure.
Funny Slaughter 03-24-04, 09:12 AM	i think in most cases the ninja is a very strong but not overpowered class. if you use its synergy within certain min/max builds it gets a bit out of hand, say if you need dodge and sneak attack anyhow. combined with the right classes a base of ninja, lets say 4 levels, can be very powerful but i dont think the class breaks the games balance in any way. rogue3/ninja4/swash3 would be a nice character with only base-classes for example and even with much synergy its not too strong imo. gs Funny
RabidWeasel 03-24-04, 12:08 PM	Ninja 5/Swashbuckler 3/Invisible Blade 5 is highly synergistic. 6d6 sneak attack damage, +int to damage, AC and initiative, and full BAB. I agree that the ninja is a good core class but not overpowered.
Dirty Dan the Laundry Man 03-24-04, 12:49 PM	Even though you get that nice fighter-like BAB, you sure as heck do not want to take that Ninja into front-line battle. You still have to fight like a rogue because your HPs are still flimsy like a rogue. The lack of Traps and the rather poor 4 skill ranks/level are a huge hit to a character that has rogue-like ambitions. all those speciall little goodies you get as a rokugan ninja are well worth the loss of those key components. for the most part, its a balanced core class. because you really cant fight or provide utility like a fighter or a rogue. you kind of have to find your own path or niche for success.
heretic888 03-24-04, 12:56 PM	I personally think the class is balanced. The main thing that most people seem to have a problem with is 1/1 BAB combined with 1/2 SA. But, when you take all the other things into account --- no Evasion or Improved Evasion, only a handful of weapon proficiencies, only one high save, d6 hit die, alignment restrictions, loss of class abilities when incurring a check penalty greater than 0, a rather large dearth of overall abilities (compared to the other classes), only decent skill points, and the "you're dead if anyone ever finds out who you really are" inherent to Rokugan --- then, no, its not unbalanced at all. If anything, I'd say the class is powerful, yet under-powered in certain areas.
CrusadeDave 03-24-04, 01:05 PM	Originally posted by FireAge quote from: http://l5r.alderac.com/rpg/rules_rokugan_errata.html Page 40: Swapped values for Ninja’s “Ref Save” and “Will Save” columns. And the ninja can be found here: http://l5r.alderac.com/rpg/rokugan_ninja.pdf So no good will save anymore, a good reflex save instead like izaegraa said. anyway, just mho This is wrong. The book was printed with a High Reflex save and low Will save. The errata for page 40 indicates they should be switched to a high Will save and low Reflex Save. The pdf on the site is the corrected version.
HoshiAdam 03-24-04, 01:54 PM	Originally posted by CrusadeDave This is wrong. The book was printed with a High Reflex save and low Will save. The errata for page 40 indicates they should be switched to a high Will save and low Reflex Save. The pdf on the site is the corrected version. Actually, I have a first printing of the Rokugan book, and it has a high will save, and should be changed to high reflex as per the errata. If your book prints a high Reflex save, it is from the second printing, and the errata has already been incorporated into it.
Qaetar 03-24-04, 03:59 PM	It's nice how the eratta just says to swap the columns even though two printings with different setups were issued and the eratta doesn't say which is supposed to be the good save. Anyway, it seems the consensus is the Ninja is a fair, though synergistic, class. Thank you all, I will continue to use her in my builds. (Qaetar)