Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gastrocnemius 07-16-05, 04:04 AM	Hi Guys ! I am started on a build for a new campaign. Starting at level 7 and 32 ability buy-system. May only use DMG, PHB and Forgotten Realms books. Start gold: 19000 and one item may max cost 9000 gp. I come up with this build and will like help to optimise it. The main focus is on AC and I what to be a Duellist. Race: Elf Bard 1 / Ranger 2 / Fighter 4 / Duellist up to level 7 / there after ? The reason for the bard level is skill point and tumble and perform is class skill for a bard and I need this to become Duellist. Bonus: Bardic knowledge and Bardic music. Abilities at level 7: Str. 10 Dex. 19 Con. 12 Int. 16 Wis. 10 Cha. 10 All increases go in Dex. Progression: Bard 1: Bardic knowledge Feat: Twin sword style Bard 1/ Ranger 1: Favoured enemy, Track, Bard 1/ Ranger 2: Two-weapon fighting Feat: Weapon finesse B1/R2/Fighter 1: Feat: Dodge B1/R2/Fighter 2: Feat: Combat expertise B1/R2/Fighter 3: Feat: mobility B1/R2/Fighter 4: Feat: Two-weapon defence B1/R2/F4/Duelist 1: Canny defence B1/R2/F4/Duelist 2: Improved reaction +2 Feat: B1/R2/F4/Duelist 3: Enhanced mobility B1/R2/F4/Duelist 4: Grace B1/R2/F4/Duelist 5: Precise strike +1d6 Feat: B1/R2/F4/Duelist 6: Acrobatic charge B1/R2/F4/Duelist 7: Elaborate parry I don’t know what to do after level 7 Duellist and what feats worth taking at level 9 and 12 so any suggestions are welcome. Items/equipment: I thought that he will use to short swords but am open for input. Gloves of dex. +2 4000 gp Braces of armour +3 9000 gp Amulet of natural armour +1 2000 gp Ring of protection +1 2000 gp Total: 17000 gp At level 10 will I try to buy a headband of int. +2 for my AC. Any other suggestions for equipment ? My AC at level 7: AC: 10 + 5 (dex) + 3 (braces) + 1 (nat.) + 1 (ring) + 2 (twin) + 1 (dodge) + 1 (two. Def.) = 24 When using combat expertise: AC 25 to 29 So any suggestions are more then welcome to how I can optimise this build or another duellist builds are also welcome. Just remember I may only use: PHB, DMG and forgotten realms books.
PlutoniumKnight 07-16-05, 04:33 AM	Look at the Swashbuckler Class in complete warrior, it's quite nice for this. Also you might want to look into the Champion of Correlion Larethion for a two level dip and dervish is a nice class, use scimitars.
DBoot 07-16-05, 05:07 AM	Duelist's best bonuses come from weilding a single one handed piercing weapon. As a result, the Ranger's Combat Style is largely wasted. Also, you need to worry about Multiclassing penalties. Go Straight Fighter 7. If you take my suggestions on race, you will have the skills you need to qualify. As far as elf choice goes, Sun Elf (if limited only to Forgotten Realms Elves) or Grey Elf (if allowed Monster Manual Elves). The Sun Elf gives you bonuses to Int, not Dex. While Dex is your main combat stat, consider that without a racial modifier, you can hit a 34 (+12). The extra skill points will help you in the long run, and you'll save some money raising that stat. Grey Elf is better still. +2 to Dex and Int, though at the penalty of some Str. Not to hard to get around. I strongly suggest you take all of Duelist. If for no other reason than that the limitations of your game pretty much give few, if any, better options for this character type. Happy stabbing.
X-Codes 07-16-05, 05:13 AM	EDIT: Forget I said anything for now. Theres much better advice on the way from me. I just found a pretty neato loophole... Ok, here it is. Get a rapier for your main hand and a dagger for your off-hand. Don't attack with the dagger, just use it for Two-Weapon Defense. (Not Twin Sword Style. TSS likely won't stack with TWD and it's far inferior for a regional feat, anyway.) You will still get the 1d6 (and eventually 2d6) from precise strike. Even if the DM kills this particular loophole, it's still sometimes better to sacrifice that 2d6 damage for higher AC (and all sorts of other special goodies if only you could use Complete Warrior).
Gastrocnemius 07-16-05, 07:28 AM	EDIT: Ok, here it is. Get a rapier for your main hand and a dagger for your off-hand. Don't attack with the dagger, just use it for Two-Weapon Defense. (Not Twin Sword Style. TSS likely won't stack with TWD and it's far inferior for a regional feat, anyway.) You will still get the 1d6 (and eventually 2d6) from precise strike. Even if the DM kills this particular loophole, it's still sometimes better to sacrifice that 2d6 damage for higher AC (and all sorts of other special goodies if only you could use Complete Warrior). The reason we have the restriction on books is that we just have stopped one campaing where we got some power builds. Played a Dwarven figther/kensai (at level 12 could I give 333 HP in damage in one round) I hope the DM allow my to be a Gray elf or else I go for the Sun elf. Also I go for the loophole with a Rapid/dagger. Straight Fighter (level 7) with a int 18 gives my 60 skill point where 16 goes on tumble and perform to meet the requirements for Duelist. Got 3 feats and 4 bonus feat. Where 3 is sure: dogde, mobility and weapon finess. 4 is open for debat. Maybe: combat expertise two-weapon fighting two-weapon defense or is ti waste of two feats for one in AC Is there a feat there can make some cross-class skills to class skill ?
Skadrian 07-16-05, 07:47 AM	in a "summer so just have fun" game I am going to play I will play swashbuckler3/fighter4/duelist x swashbukler gives tumble, wpn finnese and int to dmg, so I will play grey elf. I do use 2wpn fighting, only duelist 2 for now, and I dont think I will get to 5th, so losing sudden strike isnt a problem, and I think I would rather have some attacks with my second rapier. I went with fighter 4 for wpn specialization, 2 extra dmg on my 4 attacks is rather nice, better then an extra duelist lvl. My AC will be rather low, equipment isnt really great, dm rolled a list I could buy from, but I will manage, maybe with spring attack, still havent picked my lvl 9 feat. I thought about imp crit, but I have a keen rapier already, so it won't be as good, so maybe spring attack and take the CV feat to give me an attack with my off hand wpn in a spring attack instead of improved 2 wpn fighting, since that will be rather useless
Gastrocnemius 07-16-05, 08:10 AM	Is there a feat there can make some cross-class skills to class skill ? Found the feat: Cosmopolitan from Forgotten realms campaign setting. If I take this and make tumble to a class skill becomes Duelist posibly from level 7. So the builds goes something like this: Fighter 1 Feat: Cosmopotitan (tumble) Fighter 2 Feat: Weapon finess Fighter 3 Feat: dogde Fighter 4 Feat: mobility Fighter 5 Fighter 6 Feats:Combat experties,(Two-weapon fighting) ??? Fighter 6/duelist 1 Fighter 6/duelist 2 Fighter 6/duelist 3 Feat: (Two-weapon defense) ??? Fighter 6/duelist 4 Fighter 6/duelist 5 Fighter 6/duelist 6 Feat: Fighter 6/duelist 7 Still not sure about my feats at level 6 and so on.
Skadrian 07-16-05, 08:58 AM	sry, didnt see the tight book restriction, that build might be best, but isnt there a full bab class with tumble at all in the FR books?
Gastrocnemius 07-16-05, 09:37 AM	sry, didnt see the tight book restriction, that build might be best, but isnt there a full bab class with tumble at all in the FR books? I haven't find one yet.
X-Codes 07-16-05, 09:47 AM	Found the feat: Cosmopolitan from Forgotten realms campaign setting. If I take this and make tumble to a class skill becomes Duelist posibly from level 7. Cosmopolitan was "updated" in the Player's Guide to Faerun. It's completely different now. And it's not 1 AC, it's 2. You do a -2 on Combat Expertise and you are considered fighting defensively for the effects of a number of feats and items (unwritten rule that sometimes pops up like in the Broadblade Shortsword item description, I think it's very reasonable since you can then actually get a benefit from Combat Expertise itself...). But anyway, yeah. Don't even bother with Improved TWF because all the feats I would suggest don't require it (TWD line and Pin Shield.) Basically you have a guy that controls the AC of himself and everything around, often getting in a nice, painful poke with his rapier.
Mad Wanderer 07-16-05, 10:07 AM	I really don't see the point in the duelist class :( You get a low AC because of the no armor rule that many of the class powers require, you get mediocre damage because of the rapier and low strength to booster int and dex...And you can't even take the class until level 7 :( At least the dervish class is more rewarding for high mobility fighters. (3.0 duelist was my first character and he frustrated me to no end... :rolleyes: )
LiquidDarkness 07-16-05, 10:54 AM	With an 18 Intelligence it seems like a waste not to have 3 levels of Swashbuckler which gives you Insightful Strike (Int bonus to damage) How bout Fighter4/Swashbuckler3/DuelistX? That way you could add you High Intelligence bonus to your AC and damage with your rapier.
Eyeless Blond 07-16-05, 11:18 AM	Everyone, check the list of allowed books. Most of these ideas are impossible, as the Complete series has apparently been outlawed because of a "broken" Drawf fighter/kensai build.
Gastrocnemius 07-16-05, 12:08 PM	Cosmopolitan was "updated" in the Player's Guide to Faerun. It's completely different now. And it's not 1 AC, it's 2. You do a -2 on Combat Expertise and you are considered fighting defensively for the effects of a number of feats and items (unwritten rule that sometimes pops up like in the Broadblade Shortsword item description, I think it's very reasonable since you can then actually get a benefit from Combat Expertise itself...). I have not that much XP as a roleplayer, so could you explan what you mean with this. Sorry. And it was not only a broken fighter/kensai, there was one build more that was totally broken. Big times
Nifft 07-16-05, 12:20 PM	Duelist is just a stinky PrC. It's got great flavor but lousy mechanics. Honestly, it's best for Monks & Rogues. Precise Strike works on Sai & Sianghams, with which one can Flurry. -- N
Gastrocnemius 07-16-05, 12:50 PM	Duelist is just a stinky PrC. It's got great flavor but lousy mechanics. -- N I like the flavor The lousy mechanics is, why I try hard to optimiz it so I have some sort of a chance in combat.
Nifft 07-16-05, 01:05 PM	The flavor is great, but it's not something to knock yourself out to get. You'd be better off playing a standard Ftr/Rog with a focus on Bluff and Improved Feint. The combo of Feint, Sneak Attack, Combat Reflexes and Trip can be brutal. You're lightly armored -- more swashbuckler like -- not a full-plate tank, but not an insane naked guy with a rapier either. IMHO, the no armor or shield thing kills half the flavor, too. What, no main-gauche style? No gladiatorial buckler style? No spearfighting tribal dual style? Duelist should be master of all mano-a-mano melee. The DMG version is simply lame. Keep your concept, drop that PrC. The job can be better done by Ftr2/Rgr2 or Ftr4 plus Rog16 (or at least Rog8 + Rogue PrCs). -- N
ninjarabbit 07-16-05, 01:11 PM	The flavor is great, but it's not something to knock yourself out to get. You'd be better off playing a standard Ftr/Rog with a focus on Bluff and Improved Feint. The combo of Feint, Sneak Attack, Combat Reflexes and Trip can be brutal. You're lightly armored -- more swashbuckler like -- not a full-plate tank, but not an insane naked guy with a rapier either. IMHO, the no armor or shield thing kills half the flavor, too. What, no main-gauche style? No gladiatorial buckler style? No spearfighting tribal dual style? Duelist should be master of all mano-a-mano melee. The DMG version is simply lame. Keep your concept, drop that PrC. The job can be better done by Ftr2/Rgr2 or Ftr4 plus Rog16 (or at least Rog8 + Rogue PrCs). -- N I'll second that. Without the swashbuckler available the duelist just flops. Just go with a rogue16/fighter4 or a rogue16/ranger2/fighter2 and you'll be much better off.
Gastrocnemius 07-16-05, 01:19 PM	Your guy's have rigth. I will try to talk to my DM and see what he says. Maybe he charge his mind or else I go for the halfling rogue/shadowdancer. Then he can see which one there can be must "broken". But thanks for all yours help everybody. Opdate: No complet at all. So now I wait a answar about how tough the campaign going to be. Then I desired what to do. If the campaign is going to be that tough I will stick on the Duelist or else I will transfer some of my back ground history to the rogue/shadowdancer build. Halfling, Hide in plan sight and sneak attack. Nice combo