Post/Author/DateTime	Post
deathwishjoe 06-11-06, 01:57 AM	So I started playing a beholder mage in a campaign the other day as per LoP's dirty trick #1. Dont worry I made sure the DM was okay with it and understood what kind of power level I'd have. besides it synergized really well thematically and mechanically with master transmogrifist. and it occured to me how broken the spell was at lower levels. With a rather unoptimized choice like a beholder I still had an 10 STR 14 DEX 18 CON 17 INT and +15 natural armor bonus. AT level 3 nothing could touch me with such a high AC and my hitpoints were higher then the fighter in the group. the following is an excerpt from the SRD for the PaO spell. I've bolded important pieces of the text. Polymorph Any Object Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 8, Trickery 8 Components: V, S, M/DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One creature, or one nonmagical object of up to 100 cu. ft./level Duration: See text Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (object); see text Spell Resistance: Yes (object) This spell functions like polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another. The duration of the spell depends on how radical a change is made from the original state to its enchanted state. The duration is determined by using the following guidelines. Changed Subject Is: Increase to Duration Factor1 Add all that apply. Look up the total on the next table. Same kingdom (animal, vegetable, mineral) +5 Same class (mammals, fungi, metals, etc.) +2 Same size +2 Related (twig is to tree, wolf fur is to wolf, etc.) +2 Same or lower Intelligence +2 Duration Factor Duration Example 0 20 minutes Pebble to human 2 1 hour Marionette to human 4 3 hours Human to marionette 5 12 hours Lizard to manticore 6 2 days Sheep to wool coat 7 1 week Shrew to manticore 9+ Permanent Manticore to shrew Unlike polymorph, polymorph any object does grant the creature the Intelligence score of its new form. If the original form didn’t have a Wisdom or Charisma score, it gains those scores as appropriate for the new form. Damage taken by the new form can result in the injury or death of the polymorphed creature. In general, damage occurs when the new form is changed through physical force. A nonmagical object cannot be made into a magic item with this spell. Magic items aren’t affected by this spell. This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine. It also cannot reproduce the special properties of cold iron in order to overcome the damage reduction of certain creatures. This spell can also be used to duplicate the effects of baleful polymorph, polymorph, flesh to stone, stone to flesh, transmute mud to rock, transmute metal to wood, or transmute rock to mud. Arcane Material Component Mercury, gum arabic, and smoke. from the text I bolded in the table you can see that the spell breaks the HD no larger then the targets rule. now wether or not this means it also breaks the 15 HD max cap I dont know as such I will devide the information I present by things with higher then 15HD and those with less. the other information I bolded shows that we gain the intellegence of the new form as well. this can be good or bad *shrugs*. some fo the forms are quite studpid and some are quite intellegent. keep this in mind when making the character. you should be able to change into any creature you want with only two castings of PaO and make it perminant if your creative enough. so at level 3 with 2,700 GP you should have enough to have the spell cast once at caster level 15 and again at caster level 18. more information about these choice and why they're so good to come laters. MMI astral deva (looks human aside from wings and has great stats) MMIII arrow demon (archer builds) MMIII mountain troll huge (huge sized) MMI barbed devil (great grappler) MMI ice devil (good stats large sized) FF steal predator (not human looking but has good AC pounce) MMI Leonal (humanish looking and pounce) FF Kelvezu (sneak attack and good stats) Edit> creatures with more then 15 HD have been deleted. need a new high int for spell casters though.
Nightingale 06-11-06, 05:27 AM	The thing i find stupid about Polymorph Any Object is that Transmute Rock to Lava, a ninth level Wu Jen spell, turns a 10ft cube of rock into lava, whereas PAO transforms 100 cubic feet per level of pretty much anything into lava. PAO is an 8th level spell. Since this change is only likely to last for the duration of a very long encounter, about 2 minutes, your enemies still die horribly, but you don't have any lava to clean up afterwards. I was also wondering how long the change would last if you decided to turn the air around someone into acid. Might be worth giving that a go if you're into the whole offensive battlefield control uses of Polymorph Any Object.
Pinky's brain 06-11-06, 07:07 AM	It can be combined with a metamagic rod of chaining too. Of course abusing polymorph is no sport at all :)
skydragonknight 06-11-06, 08:01 AM	Polymorph any object says: This spell functions like polymorph, except it changes one object or creature into another. Polymorph says: The assumed form can't have can't have more HD than your caster level(or the subject's HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. Using the "examples" to justify it doesn't change the actual text, which says it functions like polymorph, except with no limitations to what type of creature or object. It never says in the text that there are no Hit Die limitations, so we have to go by the spell it references: polymorph.
Caelic 06-11-06, 11:00 AM	I agree with skydragon here. The examples imply that the cap is not in place, but it isn't stated anywhere. PaO is already overpowered enough that going out of the way to interpet still MORE power into it is, IMO, unjustified. Otherwise, why would there ever be human adventurers of fourth level or higher in the "Optimized World?" There'd be first and second level characters, and then there'd be 15-HD monsters with class levels.
EldonG 06-11-06, 11:10 AM	OTOH, Arcane Thesis: PAO looks like fun. :)
Thannin 06-11-06, 03:36 PM	I agree with skydragon here. The examples imply that the cap is not in place, but it isn't stated anywhere. PaO is already overpowered enough that going out of the way to interpet still MORE power into it is, IMO, unjustified. Otherwise, why would there ever be human adventurers of fourth level or higher in the "Optimized World?" There'd be first and second level characters, and then there'd be 15-HD monsters with class levels. No need to say that you need to interpret it one way or the other. The simple interpretation. Is the shrew in the above example, has the same hit dice as whatever it's turning into! Simply put: If D&D stats are based off of real world examples, take a cat and a brownbear. Normally in D&D and the real world, the cat will get owned by the brown bear. But now take this news article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5067912.stm Showing a clearly advanced cat taking on a black bear. Sure, the example doesn't state how many hit dice that shrew has,but it doesnt contradict the rules if you assume that they have the same hit dice. Btw, I know this was a rather pointless post, but I just read that news article and I figured it'd fit this thread well
_J_ 06-11-06, 03:48 PM	:rofl:
deathwishjoe 06-12-06, 01:05 AM	No need to say that you need to interpret it one way or the other. The simple interpretation. Is the shrew in the above example, has the same hit dice as whatever it's turning into! QUOTE] cats with levels of barbarian and frenzied berzerker aside if this is so how does the Marionette have any HD at all? [QUOTE]Otherwise, why would there ever be human adventurers of fourth level or higher in the "Optimized World?" There'd be first and second level characters, and then there'd be 15-HD monsters with class levels. imagin how hard it would be to get a date with the inn keepers daughter when you look like a balor. or imagin how the two warring tribes of barbarians will react to your diplomatic mediations when you look like a barbed devil. how are you going to fit in the castle to to see the king for your next quest if you can fit in the door because your a huge sized mountain troll? or maybe theres no roll playing in the optimized world. if this is so why would a wizard not take several levels in incantatrix? or why wouldnt a cleric take at least 4 levels in dwoemer keeper? or for that matter why doesnt everyone with access to the shapechaneg spell in the optimized world become pun-pun? this is one of the reasons astral deva is up there. they look human aside from there wings and have great bonuses. PaO is already overpowered enough that going out of the way to interpet still MORE power into it is, IMO, unjustified. considering that you get it at the same level as your HD cap of 15 HD is reached its not really making it any more powerful aside from the ability to use it on things whoes HD arent as high as your caster level. where the real kick of this trick comes in is when its used by a high level caster NPC on a low level character. Polymorph any object says: This spell functions like polymorph, except it changes one object or creature into another. • The assumed form still can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level), but the secondary limit of the subject’s original HD doesn’t apply. A pebble (with no HD) or a lizard (with 1 HD) can be D&D FAQ v.3.5 54 Update Version: 5/24/06 transformed into any form whose HD don’t exceed 15 or the caster’s level, whichever is lower. (Arguably, polymorph any object should have a higher HD cap than polymorph, but that’s not how the spell is written.) The new form can even have no HD at all (as in the case of a creature polymorphed into an object). this is from the DnD faq version 3.5 on page 53. emphasis mine. I will update the forms listed to only show creatures up to 15 HD.
deathwishjoe 06-12-06, 11:59 PM	updated a few things more to come later
neth2 06-13-06, 01:02 AM	so what happens if you are level 20 and then get PaOed into say an astral deva, do you lose those other 5 class levels or what
Karm Hundredfists 06-13-06, 04:40 AM	Normally, a target retains its class and levels (i.e., Hit Dice) when transformed by polymorph*. An ogre transformed into an orc still has 4 HD and doesn’t gain any class levels (although he retains any he had ). This is true in all cases except when the new form is an object (which obviously can’t have HD or class levels). my emphasis
skydragonknight 06-13-06, 07:11 AM	So it's the FAQ that breaks PaO. Well at least the spell caster can say no. PC: Hey, Mr. Spellcaster, do you know Polymorph Any Object? NPC: Of course I know it. Why? You want to be a Kobold? Maybe a Half-Giant? PC: No! Make me an Astral Deva! NPC: Sorry. Can't do that. You don't have enough hit dice. PC: (shows NPC the text from the FAQ) NPC: What? I even get to keep my class levels? That's sick and broken....*begins casting Polymorph any Object to turn himself into an Astral Deva* *poof! NPC is now an Astral Deva* PC: So you gonna cast it on me? I've got gold right here! Please, pretty please. NPC: Nope. Gonna have to kill you now because I can't have my rivals become Astral Devas, now can I? SMACK!