Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gerdreg 03-12-06, 01:20 AM	Fist off, it has been a great read so far. I love all 3 systems and I think the they will quickly become a common part of these boards. I realize that many will not have it for awhile but I am already excited to see what kind of great builds will pop up as more people get their copies. Perhaps others who also grab a copy early will share their thoughts here too. The classes I will quickly summarize each of the new base classes for those who are curious. I will compare them to common classes but know that the systems are totally new (think about your first look at MoI). The Binder - The binder's role will strongly depend on what vestiges he uses. They seemed to be designed to be a jack of all trades. I think most of the builds for this class will be combat builds. Most of their abilities are useable all day long but many of the powerful ones are restricted to once every 5 rounds. The Shadowcaster - This class seems to be most like an arcane caster though a few of the PrCs are melee oriented. There are rules for using exisiting caster PrCs and trading Sorc or Wiz levels for Shadowcaster levels as you advance. They are limited in how many times per day they can use their "mysteries", though they eventually get some of their abilities useable at will. The Truenamer - This class seems to be most like a divine caster based on what they can do. They have access to some decent healing and buffing powers in the later levels. They require a successful skill roll to use their "utterances". They are not limited to how many times per day they can use their abilities but the skill roll becomes harder with each successful use. Here are some optimization tidbits I that jumped out at me during my first pass thru the book. Like MoI, the new stuff is not for the new base classes only. Their are new feats that I think will fit into many builds. Many of the PrCs can be entered by standard classes but give the character access to some of the new abilities of their respective system. The Pact and Shadow Magic sections each include a dual progession PrC like the MT, but the Truename Magic section does not. The Shadow Magic section has a monster template, "Dark Creature". It's very similar to the Shadow Creature template from LoM and MotP but it's different enough that I'm not sure if it is an update or not. What jumped out at me is that it grants HiPS as a racial ability (along with other stuff) but is only +1 ECL. For those that want early HiPS, I think this is going to be popular. The Binder can get upto a 6d6 Sneak Attack from the Adromalius vestige and a 5d6 Sudden Strike from the Malphas vestige. I'm sure a strong combat build will eventually pop up using the two. The Anima Mage PrC from the Pact Magic section, gets an ability called Vestige Metamagic. It will allow the caster to eventually apply any metamgic feat known to spell 3 times per day. I'm sure this will end up in some persistent spell madness build. So far I'm really liking the Binder class due to their versatility and I will probably write a guide for them down the road if the book becomes popular. That's all for now. I'll add more stuff as I have time if people are interested.
NekoWorldOrder 03-12-06, 02:46 AM	I'm only through the sections on binders right now, but also of note: -The capstone ability of the Anima Mage, Vestige Casting, lets you, once per day, cast any spell as an immediate action and modifies said spell with both Silent and Still Spell...that's just too awesome. -If you get into Knight of the Sacred Seal as early as possible, you can change your type to Outsider by 10th level. There's gotta be a use for that. -Look at the Karsite in the monsters section. Has all human traits, +2 Con and Cha, DR of 5/magic, SR of 10+class levels, every melee attack has a chance to supress magical items for a round, they regain HP everytime their SR stops a spell, proficent in martial weapons and light/medium armor for an LA of +2. They may never be able to use divine or arcane spells, but they can still use spell-likes, magic items and psionic powers... Oh, and on the trading in of sorc/wiz levels for shadowcasters...could one go something like Bard 1/Wizard 5/Shadowcaster 4, go into Sublime Chord and then trade in all your Wizard levels for Shadowcaster levels and still use Sublime Chord? It says you can't lose a class ability or level that you need to qualify for a PrC, but it seems like I remember a trick to do something similar with Nar Demonbinder.
PhoenixInferno 03-12-06, 03:12 AM	Oh, and on the trading in of sorc/wiz levels for shadowcasters...could one go something like Bard 1/Wizard 5/Shadowcaster 4, go into Sublime Chord and then trade in all your Wizard levels for Shadowcaster levels and still use Sublime Chord? It says you can't lose a class ability or level that you need to qualify for a PrC, but it seems like I remember a trick to do something similar with Nar Demonbinder. I find it very interesting that they spell that out. I wonder if they mean something specific by that, as if to say that this is the exception to the rule or this is a clarification to the rule. Would you mind terribly if you quoted the text?
Slyver 03-12-06, 03:22 AM	Anymore specifics on the Dark-creature? Both shadow walker and shadow creature are two of my favorite templates. This sounds like an interesting addition to one of my favorite themes. Can't wait to get my hands on this book. Slyver
Gerdreg 03-12-06, 09:04 AM	Anymore specifics on the Dark-creature? Both shadow walker and shadow creature are two of my favorite templates. This sounds like an interesting addition to one of my favorite themes. Can't wait to get my hands on this book. Slyver I don't wanna post anything that will get me booted but I think a few more details won't hurt. I did find a passage saying it is a streamlined version of the template from LoM and MotP, but I'm still not sure if that means it's an update. It appears to be mostly the same as the Shadow Creature minus the selection of special abilities from increasing HD (and that the LA is reduced to +1). I hope that helps a bit more. Another optimization tidbit. The Binder and Shadowcaster have access to feats that are essentially the swift metamagic feats from CA (i.e. useable once per day). The Truenamer metamagic feats can be used at will, at the cost of raising the DC of the skill roll required to successfully "cast" the utterance. I'm sure, once someone figures out how to get a sky-high Truespeak roll, we will see some potent metamagic combination involving the Truenamer and it's PrCs.
Gerdreg 03-12-06, 09:18 AM	I find it very interesting that they spell that out. I wonder if they mean something specific by that, as if to say that this is the exception to the rule or this is a clarification to the rule. Would you mind terribly if you quoted the text? I am afraid to quote exact text but I'll try to answer. They cannot qualify directly for a PC that specifies that it requires or advances divine or arcane caster levels, but they can qualify for PrCs that require or advance generic "caster levels", such as the Alienist. As an exception to the above, they can also quaify for the MT. As for trading Sorc or Wiz levels for Shadowcaster levels, It specifically states that you cannot trade in any levels that would cause you to lose a feat or class ability that would make you ineligible for a feat or PrC you already have. I hope that helps.
NekoWorldOrder 03-12-06, 11:47 PM	I find it very interesting that they spell that out. I wonder if they mean something specific by that, as if to say that this is the exception to the rule or this is a clarification to the rule. Would you mind terribly if you quoted the text? I'm a little braver than Gerdreg. Or dumber. For the sake of generating interest in a new book that seems to add some excellent, well thought out systems, it reads: -You can't lose a feat of class abiltiy that would make you ineligible for any other feat or prestige class you already have, even if this means you can no longer take advantage of the creeping darkness feature. The level switch out doesn't quite work the same as the blackguard/paladin trade. However, I'm not willing to provoke the wrath of the WizO's by posting anymore. Also, Gerdreg, since you've read a bit about the shadowcaster, can you try to clarify something for me? The three fundamentals of shadow you start with...am I right in assuming you can use each of them three times a day, or do you only have a single use of all three? I really shouldn't read stuff like that at 3AM, it never sinks it. :embarrass
Gerdreg 03-13-06, 07:22 AM	Also, Gerdreg, since you've read a bit about the shadowcaster, can you try to clarify something for me? The three fundamentals of shadow you start with...am I right in assuming you can use each of them three times a day, or do you only have a single use of all three? I really shouldn't read stuff like that at 3AM, it never sinks it. :embarrass I read it to be that they are each useable 3 times per day and that at level 14 they are each useable at will. Also, I think it's worth noting that some are quite a bit more useful than cantrips.
Otto the Bugbear 03-13-06, 08:50 AM	I just wanted to add that, so far, the is the best D&D purchase I've made in quite some time. By so far, I mean I'm not finished with the binders section. Yet, the overall product is an A+, both from a game rules use, and the presentation of it. I foresee this being used a lot more than MoI, both in my games, and on this board. Then again, foreseer isn't a bugbear's favored class, so I could be wrong. Cheers Otto :)
Tweedledope 03-13-06, 09:11 AM	I agree with Otto. The last book I purchased was the Races of Dragon which somewhat disappointed me but, this makes up for it. The Pact Magic section is by far the best. It is similar to the Chameleon but in a 20 level fashion. The mechanics are very sound and VERY interesting. With the ability to change your role on a day to day basis, it is a very versatile class. -=TD=-
Gerdreg 03-13-06, 09:46 AM	I agree also. This has been my favorite release in awhile. I am hoping to begin playing a Binder soon so I can get an early jump writing a guide. I plan on focusing on what vestiges combine for the best synergies. Here is a quick example... Focalor and Shax - combined they give Water Breathing and a Swim Speed, a good start for an underwater adventure. Buer and Tenebrous - combined they make for a reasonable back-up priest including healing and turning. Add in Andras and you have a close facsimile to a (non good) paladin. Andromalius and Malphas - together they are a good start as a party rogue, though they do not grant the valuable Trapfinding ability. Add in Marchosias for big bonuses to Hide and Move Silently Sarvok and Eurynome - these two are an obvious pick for any session thats starts the characters without their items, as together they grant a weapon and an armor summoning.
belthazzar1113 03-13-06, 11:34 AM	love the book, i really do. I think the art is fantasic, i think the fac that each of the three sections has its own style and feel was a brilant and subtle touch, and i think that the binders rock. shadowmages are awsome, and truenamers are one of the greatest ideas of all time. the only thing that REALLY REALLY bothers me is the fact that the truename mechanic seems totally and utterly busted. I have spent a week in teh bookstore reading and i can't find a way that this mechanic isn't just flat broken. i think haveing a skill check based spell system is actually a great idea. but having a dc that goes up by multiplication is the single greatist flaw i have ever seen put into a dnd product (and i played 2nd ed psions) your dc goes up by two points per level, your check goes up by 1.... you get worse at your magic as you get higher level. This is absolutly horrible. after ninth or tenth level you don't have a prayer of buffing your friends, or youself or hitting an enemy with a spell. your magic becomes useable only on a natrual twenty, and even then only if you use to popular houserule that a natural 20 always succeeds. I am sorry but this is one of those oversights that i think should have been caught pre publishing. I have two good house rules to fix this problem, but seriously folks, unless there is something inthe errata about this then the entire system is pretty much brought low in my opinion. and i dont want that... i really like the idea of namer magic. but i don't want to have to spend every single feat, and get magic items, just to actually have a chance to use my class abilities.... i haven't heard of a wizard or a sorc that had to spend 3 feats and get a custom built magic item to cast 8th or 9th level spells... they just do it. but a namer is going ot have to do just that. and even then its a stretch to see if you can actually get things off. I eagerly await errata on this, otherwize i am going ot have to go with one of two houserules to fix this GLARING oversight.... 1) speak language is added to the namer skill list. for every two languages you speak you get a +1 synergy bonus on truespeak. Each language contains fragmented parts of the truespeech and by learning how to speak the tongues of all races you grow in understanding of the fragments of truespeech contained therein. 2) Unnamed bonus equal to half your namer level on truespeak checks. Not as flavorfilled, but it addresses the numerical problem in a numerical way, and in my opinion does solve alot of the problems with single classed namers. Doesn't help PrCs, but for those i would say you should get a competence bonus on saying your own truename equal to half your level (or +2), not a flat +4. that would help the recitation based PrCs and solve i think most of the problems.... but seriously... why should ihave to houserule something right out of the box just to fix such an obviously flawed mechanic. I love this book, but this one error really brings it down. pact magic = awsome, shadowmagic = flavor and fun. those are great. I think shadowmagic is a little weak, but its chocked full of flavor fun so it can be forgiven. please please please fix namer magic and the book can get its perfect 10/10 rating. right now even the french judge is shaking his head at the namers...
Gerdreg 03-13-06, 01:03 PM	My biggest gripe so far is that I cannot find any refences to the Illumian race in either the Shadow Magic or Truename Magic sections. I'm kind of shocked actually, as the Illumians are a race whose main city is on the Plane of Shadow and their entire race is based on a magical language. [edit]Please disregard the above. There is a nice little write-up of an Illumian Truenamer organization in the organization section. I am back to giving the book a 10. As an optimization tidbit, a Neankrau Illumian get s a +2 with Int-based skill checks (like the Truespeak skill) and a +2 caster level with spell-like abilities (such as utterances). They also always have speak language as a class skill, which is useful for some of the PrCs.
Kraydak 03-13-06, 01:03 PM	love the book, i really do. I think the art is fantasic, i think the fac that each of the three sections has its own style and feel was a brilant and subtle touch, and i think that the binders rock. shadowmages are awsome, and truenamers are one of the greatest ideas of all time. the only thing that REALLY REALLY bothers me is the fact that the truename mechanic seems totally and utterly busted. I have spent a week in teh bookstore reading and i can't find a way that this mechanic isn't just flat broken. .... 1) speak language is added to the namer skill list. for every two languages you speak you get a +1 synergy bonus on truespeak. Each language contains fragmented parts of the truespeech and by learning how to speak the tongues of all races you grow in understanding of the fragments of truespeech contained therein. I really like this fix, although I'd cap the bonus at 1/truespeeker level, and eliminate *any other* modifiers to the roll (no silvertongue amulets, no buffs, nothing). Only using the items in core+ToM, the bonuses are too low, but skill checks are historically the easiest thing to break and as written other sources for bonuses have to be allowed for Truespeakers to be worth anything at high levels... In the Pact section, the vestige whose name begins with an N (don't have my book on me) is very interesting for anyone using Diplomacy. In the Shadow section, you can spend cash for the Outsider type... And its cheap for what it gives, even ignoring Polymorph fun. -Kraydak
Gerdreg 03-13-06, 01:20 PM	love the book, i really do. I think the art is fantasic, i think the fac that each of the three sections has its own style and feel was a brilant and subtle touch, and i think that the binders rock. shadowmages are awsome, and truenamers are one of the greatest ideas of all time. the only thing that REALLY REALLY bothers me is the fact that the truename mechanic seems totally and utterly busted. I have spent a week in teh bookstore reading and i can't find a way that this mechanic isn't just flat broken. i think haveing a skill check based spell system is actually a great idea. but having a dc that goes up by multiplication is the single greatist flaw i have ever seen put into a dnd product (and i played 2nd ed psions) your dc goes up by two points per level, your check goes up by 1.... you get worse at your magic as you get higher level. This is absolutly horrible. after ninth or tenth level you don't have a prayer of buffing your friends, or youself or hitting an enemy with a spell. your magic becomes useable only on a natrual twenty, and even then only if you use to popular houserule that a natural 20 always succeeds. I am sorry but this is one of those oversights that i think should have been caught pre publishing. I have two good house rules to fix this problem, but seriously folks, unless there is something inthe errata about this then the entire system is pretty much brought low in my opinion. and i dont want that... i really like the idea of namer magic. but i don't want to have to spend every single feat, and get magic items, just to actually have a chance to use my class abilities.... i haven't heard of a wizard or a sorc that had to spend 3 feats and get a custom built magic item to cast 8th or 9th level spells... they just do it. but a namer is going ot have to do just that. and even then its a stretch to see if you can actually get things off. I eagerly await errata on this, otherwize i am going ot have to go with one of two houserules to fix this GLARING oversight.... 1) speak language is added to the namer skill list. for every two languages you speak you get a +1 synergy bonus on truespeak. Each language contains fragmented parts of the truespeech and by learning how to speak the tongues of all races you grow in understanding of the fragments of truespeech contained therein. 2) Unnamed bonus equal to half your namer level on truespeak checks. Not as flavorfilled, but it addresses the numerical problem in a numerical way, and in my opinion does solve alot of the problems with single classed namers. Doesn't help PrCs, but for those i would say you should get a competence bonus on saying your own truename equal to half your level (or +2), not a flat +4. that would help the recitation based PrCs and solve i think most of the problems.... but seriously... why should ihave to houserule something right out of the box just to fix such an obviously flawed mechanic. I love this book, but this one error really brings it down. pact magic = awsome, shadowmagic = flavor and fun. those are great. I think shadowmagic is a little weak, but its chocked full of flavor fun so it can be forgiven. please please please fix namer magic and the book can get its perfect 10/10 rating. right now even the french judge is shaking his head at the namers... Hmm...unfortunatley I see your point. The DC to buff a level 14 ally (assuming you are 14 as well) is 15 + (14 x 2) or 43. According to the players handbook, this is harder than "Nearly Impossibe (DC 40)" and is harder than "tracking a squad of orcs across hard ground after 24 hours of rainfall". I wouldn't wait around to long for that buff. To make the roll on a 19, the player would have to have an Int bonus of +7 (17 skill ranks + Int bonus of 7 + roll of 19).
Khan the Destroyer 03-13-06, 01:33 PM	I don't have the book, but I am assuming that things like Skill Focus and items that grant competence bonuses to skill checks will help bring that number down. The Truename may still not be a 50/50 shot, but you will have higher than a 10% chance to utter it. I'm thinking those DC's are close to the Incantatrix DC's.
Warlock33 03-13-06, 02:24 PM	Eh, you shouldn't have to optimize a mechanic just to make it work...
Gerdreg 03-13-06, 02:28 PM	I don't have the book, but I am assuming that things like Skill Focus and items that grant competence bonuses to skill checks will help bring that number down. The Truename may still not be a 50/50 shot, but you will have higher than a 10% chance to utter it. I'm thinking those DC's are close to the Incantatrix DC's. Your right, there's other ways to pump it up. I'll try to create an extreme situation and see if it balances. A level 20 character buffing another level 20 character. Truespeak DC = 15 + (CLx2) = 55 23 ranks in Truespeak A greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue, +10 Enhancement Bonus Skill Focus - Truespeak, +3 unamed bonus Illumian with Naen power sigil with Enhanced Power Sigils feat, +3 unamed bonus Int bonus for 34 Int (18 +5 from levels, +6 enhancement bonus item, +5 inherent bonus from tome), +12 Int bonus [edit: added tome] 23+10+3+3+12 = 51, so a character would need to roll a 4 (7 for a non-Illumian) or better to land the buff, with an increase of 2 DC each time he successfully casts it again that day. If buffing yourself, subtract 2 (+2 for the exact Truename, -4 because it is your own) from the DC. Can anyone else (with or without access to the book) think of more ways to boost the skill roll (assuming a 20th level Truenamer)?
Trance Kuja 03-13-06, 02:35 PM	I'll assume by going off your formula above that the formula for determining the skill check for a 20th lvl guy buffing another lvl 20 is 15+(20*2)= DC 55. At 20th assuming you started with an 18 int you can get up to a 34 int with tomes, level ups, and items. That is +12. You can have a max of 23 ranks in your truespeak skill. Get skill focus for an additional +3. And get an item that gives a +20 competence bonus. 23 ranks + 12 int + 3 skill focus + 20 item bonus = 58 modifier on your truespeak check. Edit: The two post above me where made while I was typing this. So yay to me for guessing the DC right. Now what type of bonus does the silver tounge thing grant. Will it stack with a generic +20 competence bonus item?
jedrious 03-13-06, 02:38 PM	Your right, there's other ways to pump it up. I'll try to create an extreme situation and see if it balances. A level 20 character buffing another level 20 character. Truespeak DC = 15 + (CLx2) = 55 23 ranks in Truespeak A greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue, +10 Enhancement Bonus Skill Focus - Truespeak, +3 unnamed bonus Illumian with Naen power sigil with Enhanced Power Sigils feat, +3 unnamed bonus Int bonus for 29 Int (18 +5 from levels +6 enhancement bonus item), +9 Int bonus 23+10+3+3+9 = 48, so a character would need to roll a 7 (10 for a non-Illumian) or better to land the buff, with a increase of 2 DC each time he successfully casts it again that day. If buffing yourself, subtract 2 (+2 for the exact Truename, -4 because it is your own) from the DC. Can anyone else (with or without access to the book) think of more ways to boost the skill roll (assuming a 20th level Truenamer)?aside from the competence bonus item, and the Marshal cohort?
hogarth 03-13-06, 02:40 PM	Just curious: are you allowed to take 10 or take 20 on the Truespeak roll?
Gerdreg 03-13-06, 02:47 PM	Just curious: are you allowed to take 10 or take 20 on the Truespeak roll? It says in the description you cannot. The bonus from the amulet is an enhancement bonus (one of three magic item in the section, the other 2 are artifacts that cannot be made by players) so it should stack with a competence bonus. Can someone give me an example of a +20 competence bonus item? If these are readily available then I think the DC is probably right on as some of the metamagic you can apply add upto 20 (for Quicken Utterance) DC to the roll.
amalcon 03-13-06, 02:54 PM	It says in the description you cannot. How much does it say you cannot? (Basically, what I'm asking is if a level of Exemplar is in order).
Gerdreg 03-13-06, 03:00 PM	How much does it say you cannot? (Basically, what I'm asking is if a level of Exemplar is in order). "Because saying a Truename is such an idiosyncratic, exacting task, you can't take 10 or take 20 on Truespeak checks."
amalcon 03-13-06, 03:16 PM	Hmm...looks to me like Skill Mastery would probably work just fine. The first level of Exemplar saves the day again! Edit: Upon reviewing Skill Mastery, it doesn't actually work, and nor does a fairly common application of it I've seen on these boards. Oh well.
Kraydak 03-13-06, 03:20 PM	Gerdreg nicely illustrates the problem. If you use Core+ToM, and your DM rules that the Truespeak boosting items in ToM are the only options (capping at +10), then the Truespeaker is useless at lvl 20. If he allows for +20 items and non-core things (skill check bonuses abound, as they are usually "safe"), then the Truespeak requirements become irrelvant. For Truespeach magic to work well, the Truespeak modifier needs to be reliably within a small range... which simply won't happen with skills. The fact that excluding non-core modifiers leaves Truespeach magic woefully underpowered just makes it worse. -Kraydak
Gerdreg 03-13-06, 03:59 PM	It just occured to me (unless I am reading it wrong) that there is no downside to trying to speak a Quickend utterance every round. The Quickend utterance has a DC increase of 20 but the only price of failure is that nothing happens. There is no increase in DC if you try to speak another utterance in the same round. If you play that a 20 always succeeds, there is no sense in not trying every round if you have this feat (except that the DC goes up by 2 for the day if you succeed, of coarse). I think truenamers are all going to be blabbermouths!
Docrailgun 03-13-06, 04:22 PM	It's probably a good thing that these systems are difficult to use... or there won't be any more clerics or wizards being played. Eh, you shouldn't have to optimize a mechanic just to make it work...
belthazzar1113 03-13-06, 04:32 PM	Eh, you shouldn't have to optimize a mechanic just to make it work... bingo!!! got it in one! BUMP finally, someone else said it. this is my single and one gripe with this book. Yes i know i can MAKE it work. i know i can grab skill focus, skill synergy, grab a plus 20 skill check item, make an illumian, and manage to force the level twenty check to 3. but do i really want to have to optimize a class just to make it work?! no. I want a normal human truenamer without a starting int of 18, without having to spend more than half his feats focusing truename mage to actually be able to cast utterances at level twenty, with a check of 13 or higher. about the same as you should be at first level. I am fine with having a 50/50 shot of getting your utterance off. I think thats just one of the prices you pay for playing a truenamer. but seriously, i don't want to have to sit here and have a "build" just to make the class workable. I mean forget about optimizing, i am having to minmax to make it playable and there is something drastically wrong with that. i love the utterances, i like the idea of being able to speak a word and have the effects done. I think namers have some really unique abilities and some very subtle and interesting play styles. I like that damage and healing are linked so that you ahve to choose between cursing and damaging, or buffing and healing. I like that alot of the words have fixed durations that can be counted on, i think the metaword feats are a great idea and a great way to modify words. I really like the flavor of the class, i like the abilities, i think truename research could be modified a bit, but its kinda cool the way it is. the class just has so much awsome potential, but this mechanic is dragging it down. a simple fix and then people can really enjoy an alternative to the stodgy wizards or charismatic sorc. you can split the stats and have the acedemic linguist, studying a language both ancient and powerful, who speaks to the world and the world listens. Someone that knows the name of demons and angels alike, and who can weild those names as others weild swords. Its a great idea, and a great addition to the game. just need to make it work. :)
Esponer 03-13-06, 04:43 PM	It's probably a good thing that these systems are difficult to use... or there won't be any more clerics or wizards being played. Of course, we don't want it completely replacing the core classes, but it seems like a basic 20th level truenamer is the equivalent of a 20th level wizard who used disjunction on a major artifact, got unlucky, and has lost all his spellcasting abilities. Is it possible, for those who've read Tome of Magic, to decrease the DC to succeed on an utterance by only using low-level ones and choosing to have them treat your level as lower than it is?
Kraydak 03-13-06, 04:51 PM	Of course, we don't want it completely replacing the core classes, but it seems like a basic 20th level truenamer is the equivalent of a 20th level wizard who used disjunction on a major artifact, got unlucky, and has lost all his spellcasting abilities. Is it possible, for those who've read Tome of Magic, to decrease the DC to succeed on an utterance by only using low-level ones and choosing to have them treat your level as lower than it is? The DC is set by your *target*, and is independent of the level of utterence/lcaster. This also means the Truespeakers, if reasonably able to buff their own party, will prove impotent against the BBEG (at CR=party's lvl+3 or 4, which is a +6 or 8 to the DC). Weenie killers unite! -Kraydak
Tweedledope 03-13-06, 04:59 PM	Man, I can't figure out how to work Truename Magic. It kills me.
Esponer 03-13-06, 05:01 PM	The DC is set by your *target*, and is independent of the level of utterence/lcaster. This also means the Truespeakers, if reasonably able to buff their own party, will prove impotent against the BBEG (at CR=party's lvl+3 or 4, which is a +6 or 8 to the DC). Weenie killers unite! -Kraydak Oh Christ… now I see the full magnitude of the problem.
belthazzar1113 03-13-06, 11:49 PM	Oh Christ… now I see the full magnitude of the problem. welcome to my world. This also means the Truespeakers, if reasonably able to buff their own party, will prove impotent against the BBEG (at CR=party's lvl+3 or 4, which is a +6 or 8 to the DC). Weenie killers unite! unfortunitly you are unable to help your party members anymore than you can hurt the monsters you face. the DC to target the party member is the same as to target a monster of your CR.... and thats still impossible at higher levels.... and unfortunitly you can just sit there trying over and over and over till you get a nat 20. the buffs only have a duration of 1-5 rounds (that doesn't increase with your caster level) so you have to put them on the round before or the first round of combat... no sitting around in the morning putting on hr/level buffs... we don't get any. and there is no persistant word feat, nor should there be. also, its worth noting that the area spells (from the final lexicon) are area spells with no check dc. its not clear what check or what formul you use to cast them. unless i missed their listing somewhere there is no way to know what kind of check your facing if you want to speak and earthquake like the guy in the pictures... more things to make namers cry. :hoppingma
TheOne 03-14-06, 12:51 AM	Just a quick question. I don't have the book (but from hearing the good reviews, I will pick it up), but has anybody reported the truename conumdrum to cust service yet...If anything maybe they can speed up the errata.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-14-06, 01:03 AM	Curses, I pre-order the book and still I'm behind the times! I guess minnesota just isn't with it... Well, good to hear that people like it. I'll reserve judgement on this truenaming DC business until I get the book... are there any true-name spells w/ no save?
robinscw 03-14-06, 03:24 AM	Save DC is 10+(1/2 truenamer level)+CHA mod for all utterances....if this is too much to put on here please let me know and don't boot me. It results in a pretty good progression...at lvl 20 you can, VERY EASILY, have a save dc of 25 which is standard for wizards and sorcerers before you minmax them
Tonpa 03-14-06, 03:53 AM	So the caster makes the check and the target gets a save, is there any system for knowing the exact truename of target/s? It would make sense if you got some bonus (for skill DC and/or for save DC) for hitting a Ogre war hulk named Truuga.
robinscw 03-14-06, 04:14 AM	You can research a personal true name for a VERY slight bonus that doesn't seem remotely worth the time and money it takes to research it....especially when you're just going to kill the creature anyway....It would probably be worth the bonus to research your teammates personal truenames as you'd be helping rather than harming but when faced with spending thousands to learn the truename of the BBEG to get a +1 to DC I'd rather spend the thousands on a wand of fireball or something and Use Magic Item(class skill for truenamer) to just fire away
Seeker of Undeath 03-14-06, 05:41 AM	I can't agree more that needing to minmax just to be able to use your class' primary ability is wrong. Sadly I'm also not coming up with a better equation for the save DC. I recall someone suggesting something like 15+(1.5*CR) or 10+(1.5*CR), but I know it'll eventually outstrip the skill. Ideally I'd like to find something that scales smoothly, even into epic play. As it stands...*shudder* At level 100-- Check: 103 ranks + 16 Int modifier + 3 Skill Focus + 10 Epic Skill Focus = 132 DC: 15 + (2*100) = 215 [IMPOSSIBLE without magic items/spells] or DC: 10 + (1.5*100) = 160 [closer but still IMPOSSIBLE without magic items/spells] I'd like to see the system turned into some sort of opposed check. I'm just having trouble figuring out what the target would use instead of ranks in Truespeak. Simply using their HD or CR wouldn't be enough for someone who'd minmaxed out a Truenamer. Maybe a Truespeak check versus a target's HD/CR check with the target's will save modifier figured in could do it? The better part of that style would be the ease of buffing allies. Friendly targets could just choose to fail their check. Sadly I'm sure this won't be satisfying in the end. Any other ideas?
Gerdreg 03-14-06, 07:11 AM	also, its worth noting that the area spells (from the final lexicon) are area spells with no check dc. its not clear what check or what formul you use to cast them. unless i missed their listing somewhere there is no way to know what kind of check your facing if you want to speak and earthquake like the guy in the pictures... more things to make namers cry. :hoppingma I assumed that they counted as non-magical objects so the Truespeak DC is set at 25.
colm_l 03-14-06, 07:15 AM	The better part of that style would be the ease of buffing allies. Friendly targets could just choose to fail their check. Sadly I'm sure this won't be satisfying in the end. Any other ideas? Well, we could always just go with something like a DC of: 15+HD+Wis modifier. Assuming we want the Truenamer to have roughly the same number of possible "spells" as a wizard of equivalent level before items (& I think someone mentioned the DC increases by two for every use after the first). However I haven't seen the Truename rules, since the book won't arrive over here for another few weeks, & so am not the best qualified to mess about with it
Gerdreg 03-14-06, 07:20 AM	Sadly I'm sure this won't be satisfying in the end. Any other ideas? I'm thinking the problem is the (x2) part. If you reduced the Truespeak DC to 15 + HD or CR, then at least the DC would scale at the same rate as your skill. Other bonuses, such as those from Int, skill focus, and items could then be used to directly offset increases in DC for metaspeak feats or repetitive successes. As Bel pointed out, I think the problem lies in the fact that DC increases at twice (for HD, slightly less for CR) the rate of your skill increases per level. Alternately, If you added a skill bonus equal to the characters truenamer level, it would have the same effect for Truenaming classes, but still keep the DCs high for dabblers who only learn a few utterances from feats.
Todd 03-14-06, 08:20 AM	You guys might want to look here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=603945 I'd say that the issues you raise don't really come up until higher levels. Once the truenamer does reach mid- to high levels, consider the amulet of the silver tongue. It greatly enhances the truenamer's checks. I'll take the liberty of quoting myself ;) from ENWorld: Indeed, the truenamer seems to need both Int-boosting items and the amulet of the silver tongue. However, I'd suggest that the truenamer isn't the only class that needs such items to function at high levels. A high-level fighter with no magic weapon and no Strength-boosting item is going to be nigh unto useless against most critters of appropriate CR. If you really want the truenamer to function without those, however, just give him a +1 to Truename checks when "casting" utterances at every even level. This will eventually equal out to the equivalent of the greater amulet at high levels. If you do this, though, you should remove the amulet from the game, as stacking the two would get overpowered. And I hope you find the shadowcaster satisfying. :) I'm eager to start hearing people's thoughts on it.
belthazzar1113 03-14-06, 08:31 AM	mabey you could change the formula from x2 to something else, but honestly i don't want to do that. It seems like if that was what needed to be done WotC would have done it. they must have at least playtested the mechanic and seen what it can and can't do. what gets me is intent. I think at low levels the goal is really to make you need to roll somewhere between a five and fifteen to get your power to acticate. set your needed d20 right in the middle range of your roll. and then i really honestly thing that to affect a target of your level it should stay right in the five to fifteen range. this way affecting a target higher level than you would be possible but difficult, and affecting a lower level target would be realitivly easy, but would cost you some buildup on your spells. I even think that if you minmax and can manage to drive your DC down to 5 at level 20 its still not a bad thing. A wizard is going to have in the neighbour hood of 36+ spells they can cast each day before things like specilization, high int, magic items, ect come into play. A sorc is going to have 54+... thats a boatlod of potential. so at level twenty if you can use the truename utterances 5 or 6 times each then you are going to have 25 or so useful utterances per day, 25 semi useful utterances per day, and then 15 not useful at all utterances. the lower level spells don't scale so they do get rendered mostly inoffective. you can probly have close to a sorcerers number of utterances per day when you take into account all the different utterances you know, but then your going to have increasing spell failure with every casting so once you pass the number of spells a wizard could cast, your going to be spending alot of time swearing at the dice before you get to what a sorc could do. i don't think you need to give a namer a bonus equal to their level. I think that it would be foolish to ignore the fact that you ARE going to spend some abilities to augment your base skill ranks. half the namer level is acceptable if your just going to drop an unnamed bonus on them. level twenty. average dc 55... average check 1d20 + 23 skill ranks +5 ability mod +10 unnamed bonus. 17 needed without counting for skill boost magic items, ability enhancing magic items, feats, or any other mod you can come up with. assuming your saying your truename that puts the check right at 15 where it needs to be. chances are your ability mod is going to be higher, your going to have at least two magic items that give a bonus to int and skill check respectivly, and most truenamers are going to take at least skill focus truespeak... so even with half your level your check will probly be around 2. almost a garentee to get off your first utterances... but the day wears on and your going to start running into signifigant resistance. just how it should be i think. if you go with the houserule that every two languages (beyond your native) gives a +1 synergy bonus, then you will probly pick up about one language a level which would give you the same results. if your willing to spend more of your skill points you can get a higher check, if you don't want to spend as many you don't get as much help. I rather like giving the players the option. but thats my opinion. does anyone have an opinion on that fix? i am presenting it to my dm and would like some perspectives other than mine, if people have ideas.
Gerdreg 03-14-06, 09:03 AM	I really don't think the system is working the way they intended, maybe they did something different in playtesting. Take a second look at my example... A level 20 character buffing another level 20 character. Truespeak DC = 15 + (HDx2) = 55 23 ranks in Truespeak A greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue, +10 Enhancement Bonus Skill Focus - Truespeak, +3 unamed bonus Int bonus for 34 Int (18 +5 from levels, +6 enhancement bonus item, +5 inherent bonus from tome), +12 Int bonus 23+10+3+12 = 48, so a character would need to roll a 7 or better to land the buff, with an increase of 2 DC each time he successfully casts it again that day. If buffing yourself, subtract 2 (+2 for the exact Truename, -4 because it is your own) from the DC, for a DC of 53. This is the best case scenario you can have at level 20 using core and ToM. At best, you can get a self-buff roll down to a 5 or greater. You add a +20 DC if you try to speak a Quickend Uterance. This becomes absolutely impossible, as you would need to roll a 25, without house rules. They might have assumed you need optimization to get the system to work but I doubt they intended poeple to have to make up house rules just to get the new feats they presented to work. Either we are missing something or something is wrong.
hogarth 03-14-06, 10:20 AM	This is the best case scenario you can have at level 20 using core and ToM. You're leaving out core spells like Good Hope/Heroism/Prayer that give bonuses to spell checks. It seems like the sensitive issue is that every +2 skill bonus gives another opportunity to use truespeech every day. In that case it makes sense to have fairly high DCs (at least for abilities which are useable out of combat where there is no penalty for failure). I'm not sure why it should be so much easier to give the same buff to your cohort rather than to yourself, though. edit: Forgot to mention Guidance, Greater Heroism and Moment of Prescience.
Tweedledope 03-14-06, 10:43 AM	I can't agree more that needing to minmax just to be able to use your class' primary ability is wrong. Sadly I'm also not coming up with a better equation for the save DC. I recall someone suggesting something like 15+(1.5*CR) or 10+(1.5*CR), but I know it'll eventually outstrip the skill. Ideally I'd like to find something that scales smoothly, even into epic play. As it stands...*shudder* At level 100-- Check: 103 ranks + 16 Int modifier + 3 Skill Focus + 10 Epic Skill Focus = 132 DC: 15 + (2*100) = 215 [IMPOSSIBLE without magic items/spells] or DC: 10 + (1.5*100) = 160 [closer but still IMPOSSIBLE without magic items/spells] I'd like to see the system turned into some sort of opposed check. I'm just having trouble figuring out what the target would use instead of ranks in Truespeak. Simply using their HD or CR wouldn't be enough for someone who'd minmaxed out a Truenamer. Maybe a Truespeak check versus a target's HD/CR check with the target's will save modifier figured in could do it? The better part of that style would be the ease of buffing allies. Friendly targets could just choose to fail their check. Sadly I'm sure this won't be satisfying in the end. Any other ideas? I emailed CustServ about this (Using level 20 as an example). It is still very poorly written at level 20 where you have a 10% chance to even cast a spell (19 - 20 on your skill check). I'll keep ya'll updated. -=TD=-
Gerdreg 03-14-06, 11:20 AM	You're leaving out core spells like Good Hope/Heroism/Prayer that give bonuses to spell checks. It seems like the sensitive issue is that every +2 skill bonus gives another opportunity to use truespeech every day. In that case it makes sense to have fairly high DCs (at least for abilities which are useable out of combat where there is no penalty for failure). I'm not sure why it should be so much easier to give the same buff to your cohort rather than to yourself, though. edit: Forgot to mention Guidance, Greater Heroism and Moment of Prescience. Good addition Hogarth but I strongly doubt that buffs from another class were factored into their system. I will ammend my "best scenario" to mean the best achievable by a level 20 truenamer alone. Also, most (almost all actually) of the utterances last only 1-5 rounds so using them between combats would only raise the DC.
robinscw 03-14-06, 11:22 AM	Spells do give boosts to spell-checks...but the Truenamer shouldn't need another party member with the proper spell to constantly buff him so that he can speak. I think the big issue here is that at lvl 20, against a lvl 20, a quickened utterance is DC 15+40+20 and that's impossible. Also, the lower level utterances don't scale, so there has to be a way to get multiple uses out of them at higher levels otherwise a lvl 1 character heals 1d8 with a lower dc than a lvl 20 character trying to heal the same 1d8 amount. For that matter...it kinda sucks that the highest damage you can get is 8d6, with 8d6 the next round...assuming the foe doesn't move out of range, and you haven't already used the utterance to heal an ally....at level 20 I want to dish 8d6, 8d6 at least 5 times a day reliably...a sorceror or wizard can launch 5 20d6 fireballs without even trying to minmax. I think it speaks very highly of this book that the standard "OMG WotC is just trying to get money for a subpar product...I'm never buying another book" threads haven't started yet. This is really the best book I've seen in awhile and I'll happily throw sheets of errata in the back to get this system working properly.
tsuyoshikentsu 03-14-06, 11:33 AM	Here's my question: how powerful are these utterances as compared to normal spells? IE, are they worth this much effort?
robinscw 03-14-06, 11:39 AM	The lower ones can harm or heal, speed or slow, which is a fun effect but they're nowhere near the power of spells. They have set durations, set numerical effects, and can only be used once or twice a day before the DC is too high to actually meet. The possibility of metamagic is basically nonexistant because the +20 DC for Quicken Spell, for example, renders an utterance impossible to speak. The most healing you can hope for is 5 rounds of fast healing 15 and the max damage is 8d6, with another 8d6 if you maintain concentration for the next round....there's no obvious way to up this damage as none of the numeric effects are really variable
Esponer 03-14-06, 12:08 PM	So essentially, in just about every regard, Truename Magic is awful? (Note: I consider the flavour of it awful, from everything I've heard.)
Gerdreg 03-14-06, 12:57 PM	So essentially, in just about every regard, Truename Magic is awful? (Note: I consider the flavour of it awful, from everything I've heard.) Actually, despite my problems with the dice system I still like it. I like the flavour alot. I'm not going to comment yet on how powerful or weak it is without trying it first (after some erratta). No amount of coolness will get people to play it if it's too hard to use though.
Gerdreg 03-14-06, 01:07 PM	The lower ones can harm or heal, speed or slow, which is a fun effect but they're nowhere near the power of spells. They have set durations, set numerical effects, and can only be used once or twice a day before the DC is too high to actually meet. The possibility of metamagic is basically nonexistant because the +20 DC for Quicken Spell, for example, renders an utterance impossible to speak. The most healing you can hope for is 5 rounds of fast healing 15 and the max damage is 8d6, with another 8d6 if you maintain concentration for the next round....there's no obvious way to up this damage as none of the numeric effects are really variable Actually you missed a level there. It's fast healing 20 or 10d6+10d6 damage max. 100pts. of healing or 20d6 damage isn't terrible, especially after level 17 when you can do it to everyone in the room (assuming you can make the monstrous roll). As for quicken, after you get it, there is no reason no to try to use it every round as there is no penalty for failure (aside from the utterance not working of coarse), and it doesn't change the DC of any other utterance you speak that round. If they fix the DC system, truenamers could end up being the kings of quick cast...err speaking.
Morrowner 03-14-06, 03:09 PM	The examples with a +20 competence bonus really get my goat. I'm supposed to spend hundreds of thousands in gold pieces to use my Truename abilities, the only reason for me exsisting? Its bull. If any other caster had to blow a feat, be shackled to a race, and spend hundreds of thousands of gold pieces to get their spellcraft up and still be subject to a 5-20 percent spell failure they'd be gimped for sure. How did Wizards not catch this? I think they're slipping.
robinscw 03-14-06, 06:47 PM	Maybe the formula's a misprint...because with 15+HD/CR you would always have a hit or miss chance of casting the spell....and items etc would allow for steady use of metamagic and more uses of the spell per day...I'm just going to let my player use 15+HD until I hear otherwise because even the nastiest builds on here can't cast a quickened spell on a lvl 20 villain DC 15+40+20=75...impossible....ever but DC 15+20+20=55....crap but still possible...does anyone else think the +10 bonus from the silver tongue amulet should just be built into the class?
Sigma34561 03-14-06, 07:10 PM	I dont think using 15+HD is a good idea against monsters, CR would be more like it. Some monsters have lower hit dice compared to others of same CR because of special abilities. It would makes sense because it would eventually get easier to use your powers as you progressed. So much so that it would be second nature and you might not even have a chance to fail, then you can dabble in metamagic. Kinda like every other class there is. You get better at casting spells, and then you can afford to "waste" some slots and stuff on metamagic. Gasp! perhaps you could even use feats and gold on things besides granting you the ability to use the abilites of your class? Of corse the RAW is the opposite where the longer you spend doing it, the more you suck at it. Kill yourself at level 6 and be done with it. Optomizing your character should be optional, not manditory.
Milo HoBo 03-14-06, 07:19 PM	I'm definately going with the 15 + CR. I would think that you should be able to not only have better utterances but also more per day. This formula strictly does the opposite. Not only that, but the fact that you have to roll everytime as well as the opponent always gets a save is REALLY unfair to the truenamer. Something has to give, and the formula should be the first thing to go. Then, if you learn something's true name, they don't get a save against your utterances. It shouldn't cost so much to research either. I haven't even had a chance to read it, but this is what makes the most sense to me. From everything I've heard, this is the most bugged system. Even psionics in 3.0 wasn't this bad. Nor are the few problems with incarnum. Are there any problems like this in the other systems? I hope not.
Sigma34561 03-14-06, 07:45 PM	its a good system and we dont want to go overboard. I think thats on the right track but you might have overstepped. Go for 15+CR Raise the +4 to DC to say someones truename. Its harder and I'll admit that. However the DC to resist the utterance is +4. Thats signifigant enough to make it worthwhile researching. No save is brutal against Utts (new word) that are Save or Die. A feat or class ability improves this by +1 or +2. Perhaps some class abilites like... 11th Level - What's In a Name... The trademark of a good Truenamer is the power he has over those whose names are in his book and on his tounge. At 11th level, any utterance cast by a truenamer who knows the targets name has the DC increased by 5 instead of 4. 17th Level - ...Everything Woe be to anyone who should cross a Truenamer who knows thier true name. At 17th Level the increased saved DC bonus for knowing a targets truename increases to +6. Instead of class abilites perhaps feats? That would work too. Also... A feat inspired by Hellboy. Truename Warding Prerequisites: 9 Ranks in Truespeak Effect: If you inscribe the True Name of someone on an object, the break DC and Hardness increases by one half your Truespeak Skill Ranks rounded down. This effect only applies to the person who's truename is inscribed upon the surface. This ability is best used upon manacles or portals which you do not wish the aforementioned to exit or enter respectivly.
ressurrector 03-14-06, 09:05 PM	double post, ignore
ressurrector 03-14-06, 09:09 PM	I have an idea: stay with me here, since this is only an idea. A: have static DCs which you make a caster level check against, and have the higher level'd utterances with higher DCs. ex: easy utterance, DC12 (+1-2 per use) B: have charisma checks for each utterance, and the DC for utterance is based on your level, going down as you get higher level. ex: easy utterance, DC15-(1/2 caster level) (+1-2 per use) This does mean that at higher levels it would become easier to use all utterances, but the higher powered ones would be more difficult. It also removes the problems with easily broken skill checks as it's no longer skill dependant. Any thoughts?
robinscw 03-14-06, 10:10 PM	Sorry for the confusion..I said 15 + HD/CR meaning whichever was appropriate according to the breakdown in the book. I think this pretty much puts the truespeaker on the same level with everyone else. Sure you can use items to up your skill check but that's like using periapt of wisdom +6 to get extra bonus spells or rings of wizardry. ONE THING WE"RE FORGETTING Use Magic Device is a class skill.....which gives additional versatility...not alot...but some
robinscw 03-14-06, 10:12 PM	The problem, Resurrector, is that the whole point of the truespeech system is skill-based magic... I"m not really sure you can just take the skill check out without destroying the new idea of a non-vancian way to cause magical effects
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-14-06, 10:28 PM	[disclaimer: I don't have the book yet... so rules regarding bonuses are unknown to me] Would potions of divine insight help (2nd level cleric spell from CAdv)? You could get up to a +15 insight bonus on any given skill check with that spell. If there is a theurgic class (truespeaker + divine) that spell might just be the way to go. (From what I gather a +15 bonus would grab you another 7 utterances per day).
robinscw 03-14-06, 10:41 PM	I think it would definitely work....maybe even a wand...Use Magic Device is a class skill
Lokiyn 03-14-06, 10:44 PM	I looked at the book. i'm impressed by the demon controller, it kicks the teeth out of the nar demon binder, That prc sells the book for me. Or at least i'll buy it used first chance i get ;) Unname is delightful, as well as the fact that they have finally updated genesis is nice as well. Also its wonderful that they increase the dc. it makes sense the stronger something is the more reisistant its ture name is to manipulation.
robinscw 03-14-06, 10:51 PM	It does make sense for the DC to increase....just not as fast as it does
Tweedledope 03-14-06, 11:25 PM	I have e-mailed CustServ and this is our current rantings: I recently bought the new Tome of Magic and I feel that there is something very wrong with Truename magic. It seems insanely difficult to use your utterances at higher levels. For instance, if we're 20th level we could look like: 23 Ranks + 13 (Int) + 3 (Skill Focus: Truespeek) = 37 + 20 = 57 The DC to use an Utterance on yourself is 15 + (20*2) = 55 Therefor, you have a 10% chance to buff yourself (With a roll of 19 or 20). In other words, the way this mechanic is set up, you get WORSE at casting your spells as you level thus making you terribly weak. I HOPE that I'm missing something here but, this seems VERY VERY poorly written. Thank you for contacting us. Actually, a Truenamer gets a +4 to use utterances on themselves. That and your math is off on your example. 23 ranks + 13 (Int) +3 SkF + 4 (affecting yourself) = 43 + 20 = 63. This means you only need a 12 to Utter your own name, and subtracting the +4 to Utter another creature's truename means you only need a 16. Not bad if you ask me. Take Care! I have sense responded with an update to my quote as follows: Okay, well, what if we take a look at the need to quicken an utterance which adds an outrageous +20 onto your necessary roll. Even at lower levels that becomes outrageously difficult to speak. I just feel that there is a very, very, poorly written mechanic built in here. You never hear of a Wizard/Sorcerer or cleric or a druid or any other spellcasting class having a 50%+ chance of failing to "cast" his or her spell. It seems this is a bit outrageous and there is alarge following of mine on the CO Boards and Class boards as well. Do you suspect there will be any errata for this? -=TD=-
Bladenite78 03-14-06, 11:46 PM	I don't think that customer service understands what they are saying or perhaps I don't. Do you mean to tell me that given that example when using truespeak on another creature you fail 75% of the time without outside assistance via magic items, spells, optimization etc and that's "not bad if you ask me"? What is bad...failing 100% of the time without assistance? I mean..am I missing something, you need a 16 or better?
Trance Kuja 03-14-06, 11:48 PM	So far, not depending on any particular int score, we can get: 23 ranks, +10 enhancement, +15 insight, and +20 competence = 58 A +20 competence bonus item is 40,000. A 2nd lvl wand is 4,500. How much is the amulet that gives the enhancement bonus? As it is it's not looking too expensive to up your skill checks. If you really focus on getting the check on uo there you can be an illumian, max int, and devote a skill focus. Then your are really getting the check on up there. 23 ranks + 12 int mod + 2 racial bonus + 3 Skill Focus + 10 enhancement + 15 insight + 20 competence = 75 That means you can make the roll for a quickend truespeak even with a 1. Plus its easy to pull off numerous uses of the same utterance. I can see Truespeakers being fairly broken as long as you invest the money in keeping their equipment on par with their levels. I assume that truespeaking incurs no ASF so you can be a fully armored caster on top of this. This looking to be a fairly overpowered class. I can't wait till my copy comes in. Since this thread is on Tome of Magic all together, how is shadowcasters looking in terms of power. The noctumancer prestige class looks pretty nice and since mysteries aren't considered spells, this maybe an instance where precocious apprentice can help you qualify early. Sorc 2/ Shadowcaster 8/ Noctumancer 10 would net you 6th lvl spells which ain't bad and top tier mysteries, along with the nice countering abilities of the prestige class.
Tweedledope 03-14-06, 11:55 PM	Trance, the problem here is that it takes the will and brainpower of Optimizers to make good use of Truespeech. The "normal" player isn't going to think of all the things we have thought of (especially the wand of xx). It's not very hard for a "normal" player to make a good Wizard with two PrC (Archmage and Incantatrix). However, even with the simplest of builds, such as Truenamer 20, we're running into some serious gaming issues. It's a wonderfully written class with poorly written mechanics. -=TD=-
Kraydak 03-15-06, 12:20 AM	Even that isn't really the problem. The problem is that skill totals cannot help but vary wildly. If a Truenamer-20 is balanced with a total of +50, say, then he *needs* non-core items (the core+ToM items only go up to +10). If he *gets* non-core items/effects though, he can soar past +50. There is *no* way to constrain a skill total to a limited range at high levels, and for the Truenamer to work, his Truespeak total *must* be tightly constained (+/- 2 is probably about the limit). For the Truenamer class to work, the Truespeak cannot be a skill (or at least has to have an adequate number of special rules that it no longer really counts as one). -Kraydak
Sigma34561 03-15-06, 12:26 AM	i think that with the 15+CR formula, that problem can be solved simply. The Truespeak skill should be changed so that it cannt benefit from a competence, enhancement, synergy, divine, or profance bonus. Mortal Magic does not mesh with cosmic forces such as theese. I know this probably leaves a gap for min maxing through classes and whatnot but thats a gap that you min-maxers love and cherish, so dont complain about it. Now your limited to your skill cap, your int bonus, and skill focus feats. You can raise your int, but that pales in comparison to all the other sources of bonuses. I think ony headbands of int could help you there.
Kraydak 03-15-06, 12:50 AM	i think that with the 15+CR formula, that problem can be solved simply. The Truespeak skill should be changed so that it cannt benefit from a competence, enhancement, synergy, divine, or profance bonus. Mortal Magic does not mesh with cosmic forces such as theese. I know this probably leaves a gap for min maxing through classes and whatnot but thats a gap that you min-maxers love and cherish, so dont complain about it. Now your limited to your skill cap, your int bonus, and skill focus feats. You can raise your int, but that pales in comparison to all the other sources of bonuses. I think ony headbands of int could help you there. Sure, but then, why call it a skill? It is using very different mechanics after all. Just make it a d20+int+namer lvl+assorted specific bonuses roll, and it might work. Much like binding a vestige. Heck, *keep* Truespeak (giving a synergy bonus to Utterance rolls) for spells requiring Truespeak components... Just make sure the DC varies at most 1 to 1 with CR, because those BBEGs are often at party+4, and 4*2=8 is painful indeed.
Mommy was an Orc 03-15-06, 12:55 AM	Trance, the problem here is that it takes the will and brainpower of Optimizers to make good use of Truespeech. The "normal" player isn't going to think of all the things we have thought of (especially the wand of xx). It's not very hard for a "normal" player to make a good Wizard with two PrC (Archmage and Incantatrix). However, even with the simplest of builds, such as Truenamer 20, we're running into some serious gaming issues.- I don't know about that - remember, this is a class, which in theory is being played from 1-20. When you notice the problem in RL, you'll start to think of ways to solve it. If you know you're not hitting anything and that's your job, you don't spend a feat on skill focus. Same thing goes for a Truenamer - as soon as they realize that their DCs are skyrocketing, they'll start hunting for skill bonuses that will stack. What I suspect people might be missing here(haven't read the book yet, but this seems to be screaming out to me) is that while it might be extremely difficult to buff your party, it probably isn't that difficult to buff lower level things that still pose a threat to higher level things. Such as summoned monsters, small armies, or other such things - as an example, an Avoral is a 7HD monster that results from Summon Monster VII - it is quite decent, as it has the ability to heal in the ballpark of 80 hp from someone with Augmented Summoning. But a 13th level Truenamer who has 16 ranks and a 24 Int(with no items or feats) only needs a 5 to buff it. That's a 2 with Skill Focus. That's not only doable, it is nearly automatic - and the Truenamer is likely to be able to buff it for 3-4 rounds before he fails a check - without the use of resources. Start doing any of the various optimization tricks and the Truenamer can likely buff the monster through the entire combat...an Avoral might not be a huge threat, but if it is fast healing 30 something hit points per round, it is going to be able to cause some trouble.
ressurrector 03-15-06, 02:56 AM	i think that with the 15+CR formula, that problem can be solved simply. The Truespeak skill should be changed so that it cannt benefit from a competence, enhancement, synergy, divine, or profance bonus. Mortal Magic does not mesh with cosmic forces such as theese. I know this probably leaves a gap for min maxing through classes and whatnot but thats a gap that you min-maxers love and cherish, so dont complain about it. Now your limited to your skill cap, your int bonus, and skill focus feats. You can raise your int, but that pales in comparison to all the other sources of bonuses. I think ony headbands of int could help you there. Sure, but then, why call it a skill? It is using very different mechanics after all. Just make it a d20+int+namer lvl+assorted specific bonuses roll, and it might work. Much like binding a vestige. Heck, *keep* Truespeak (giving a synergy bonus to Utterance rolls) for spells requiring Truespeak components... Just make sure the DC varies at most 1 to 1 with CR, because those BBEGs are often at party+4, and 4*2=8 is painful indeed. What did I say further up the page? If they took the (in my mind) ridiculous use of a skill check (easily broken with effort, horribly difficult without) it would be a fairly easy class to work with. I say to just ditch the skill checks, make it a more random version of wizard casting, and stop whining.
belthazzar1113 03-15-06, 07:02 AM	i noticed alot of people complaining about the BBEG dc being a good 4-8 points higher than the others... yes this is true, but for those of you that don't have the book, one of the biggest powers of the binder is the ability to buff allies. either with fast healing, or other abilities. on a BBEG your not going to be casting your damaging curses, your going to be assisting your allies. very similar to how wizards arn't going to be unloading their best save or die spells on a higher level boss, because chances are he is going to save every time. you fall back to your smaller more relable spells. clerics are an even better example. flamestrike won't do so well on the BBEG, but healing is still healing and will work just fine... so i am not objectionable to truenamers being hard pressed to hurt the BBEG. Originally Posted by CustServ Thank you for contacting us. Actually, a Truenamer gets a +4 to use utterances on themselves. That and your math is off on your example. 23 ranks + 13 (Int) +3 SkF + 4 (affecting yourself) = 43 + 20 = 63. This means you only need a 12 to Utter your own name, and subtracting the +4 to Utter another creature's truename means you only need a 16. Not bad if you ask me. Take Care! actually a truenamer gets +2 to use utterances on themselves, since the DC also goes up by two. ahh our math is off... so all we need is a 36 intelegence and we are able to use our abilities... of course, how silly of me not to see that the namer apparently gets +1 int every level.... because i started with a 16 int, and somehow now i have 36 to get a +13 skill bonus.... and of course... having greater than 50% spell failure (effectivly) is not too bad... i mean we all know most wizards are tromping around in full plate with tower sheilds anyway, so we should be right on par with them. yeah custserv is right, what were we thinking. everything is working perfectly as intended. truenamers are just wizards that run around in fullplate with towersheilds.... we are just as strong as them.... :uh-huh: :nonono: :censored::censored: :headexplo *suicide*
hogarth 03-15-06, 07:03 AM	Such as summoned monsters, small armies, or other such things - as an example, an Avoral is a 7HD monster that results from Summon Monster VII - it is quite decent, as it has the ability to heal in the ballpark of 80 hp from someone with Augmented Summoning. But a 13th level Truenamer who has 16 ranks and a 24 Int(with no items or feats) only needs a 5 to buff it. That's a 2 with Skill Focus. Note that an Avoral has 7 HD, but a CR of 9, so your calculation is slightly off (for monsters it's based on CR, not HD, I believe).
Gerdreg 03-15-06, 07:24 AM	Ugh...that customer service response hurts my head. They think that having to roll a 16 to get an ability to work is "not bad if you ask me"? I feel bad for Dave Noonan. His section of the book is way cool, but it's gonna get less playtime than a green slime wizard.
Mommy was an Orc 03-15-06, 08:58 AM	Note that an Avoral has 7 HD, but a CR of 9, so your calculation is slightly off (for monsters it's based on CR, not HD, I believe). That's still going to be pretty easy to achieve for most Truenamers - with that +10 item of Truename boost, he's going to be able to hit it on a -1, -4 with Skill Focus...
Trance Kuja 03-15-06, 09:25 AM	Trance, the problem here is that it takes the will and brainpower of Optimizers to make good use of Truespeech. The "normal" player isn't going to think of all the things we have thought of (especially the wand of xx). It's not very hard for a "normal" player to make a good Wizard with two PrC (Archmage and Incantatrix). However, even with the simplest of builds, such as Truenamer 20, we're running into some serious gaming issues. It's a wonderfully written class with poorly written mechanics. -=TD=- The thing is, as I showed above, even without optimizing your race, int, and choices of feats toward boosting your check the class is still usable as is. Its perfectly acceptable for a chr to have to invest wealth in items in order to maintain effectiveness. Even the lowly fighter must continually strive for bigger, shinier swords to remain effective (and they still tend to lag behind at higher levels unless one of the psycho damage multiplying builds are used), wizards spend their cash on wands, staves, phylacteries, and building pimped out giant towers from which to hurl massive fireballs in order to compensate for their small :censored: . The second level wand is cheap at 4,500 and the competence bonus item can start at a +5 for 2,500 and be improved with levels and the accumulation of more wealth. I'd rather have a nice class that only works when you collect items that mesh with you abilities, than one thats nerfed so people can buy vorpal butter knives and other stupid stuff for their characters and still have them functioning at top power.
belthazzar1113 03-15-06, 09:40 AM	The thing is, as I showed above, even without optimizing your race, int, and choices of feats toward boosting your check the class is still usable as is. Its perfectly acceptable for a chr to have to invest wealth in items in order to maintain effectiveness. Even the lowly fighter must continually strive for bigger, shinier swords to remain effective (and they still tend to lag behind at higher levels unless one of the psycho damage multiplying builds are used), wizards spend their cash on wands, staves, phylacteries, and building pimped out giant towers from which to hurl massive fireballs in order to compensate for their small . The second level wand is cheap at 4,500 and the competence bonus item can start at a +5 for 2,500 and be improved with levels and the accumulation of more wealth. I'd rather have a nice class that only works when you collect items that mesh with you abilities, than one thats nerfed so people can buy vorpal butter knives and other stupid stuff for their characters and still have them functioning at top power thats some real bull. a 20th level fighter isn't going to be relying on a +5 sword of asskickery to do damage. sure he will be able to do more. but even with a stcik he is still goin gto kick ass and take names. +20 base atack will do that for a fella. a wizard donsn't need a single magic item. they have 4 ninth level spells to play with. wishes, meteor swarms, disjunctions, and then of course 4 spells of every other level... fireballs, lighting bolts, invisibility, haste, slow, wall of force... they don't NEED a wand to be cool. they don't need any items to be freaking powerful. but if your a truenamer... at level 20 unless you have spent at least half your "expected" wealth on items just too boost your truename skill, then you are going to be UNABLE to use even a single class ability. thats beyond messed up. you play a wizard thats unable to cast any spells, or a cleric with no armor or spells, or a fighter with no feats, and no arms. or mabey a theif that is nothing more than a head with a foot growing out of the neck. because those characters will still be more useful than a level 20 truenamer. and what about games that don't use the standard wealth progression? like for example the worlds largest dungeon? or a dark sun style game, or a savage coast style game. if your going to be dependant on magic items JUST TO play a class then they need to be a class feature of the class, not something you have to figure out you need. wizards don't HAVE to have a wand, which is why the class doesn't automatically get one. But take a look at monte cooks magister class. they are wizards that require a staff to cast spells. so you know what? their staff is a class feature. its described in the class. if truenamers needed to have a magic item to make them able to speak the true names, then it needs to be a class feature, not an "option" optimization should be an option, not a requirment to useing a class. It is in this regard that the truenamer fails.
Scud-O 03-15-06, 10:10 AM	Now, I just picked the book up last night and ran through about half of the Truename Magic section, but it seems to me that the problem here is that Utterences from The Lexicon of the Evolving Mind [the ones that affect creatures and are subject to the 15 + (2xCR/HD)] are meant for use at low levels, when the DCs are right in the 5 to 15 sweet spot. In mid-levels, your Truenamer gains access to Utterences from The Lexicon of the Crafted Tool - these affect items and (although i could be wrong, since I don't have the book here at work with me) have a static DC to acheive (DC25, I think). At high levels, you gain access to Utterences from The Lexicon of the Perfected Map, which are area effect (more or less) and (although I could be wrong again, being without the book currently) are ALSO subject to a static DC (DC25?). It seems to me that, like 0 and 1st-level spells, Utterences from The Lexicon of The Evolving Mind are supposed to become less useful as time goes on and a Truenamer is assumed to be focusing on the Utterences from the other Lexicons, which are easier to use (and have a much greater effect) at higher levels.
robinscw 03-15-06, 10:24 AM	First off, yes the BBEG is at a CR that no Truenamer will ever affect....but you can't buff your allies either because their hit dice are too high for you to ever affect them at high levels. And the higher level utterances are something bordering on useless....and before I get flamed let me explain. Affecting items to suppress or add a weapon feature for a few rounds is useful....but hardly exciting at level 12 The utterances that affect the environment have some great utility like gate, astral lock, and move terrain.....but these are doable by any spellcaster with half the levels....and at some point the truespeaker has to be able to deal damage. IMHO...affecting people is the strongest ability the utterances have....plus the idea of being able to speak or unspeak to allow two different effects from each utterance was genius....Too bad the idea of speaking and unspeaking completely disappeared in the later utterances.
Kraydak 03-15-06, 11:04 AM	The thing is, as I showed above, even without optimizing your race, int, and choices of feats toward boosting your check the class is still usable as is. Its perfectly acceptable for a chr to have to invest wealth in items in order to maintain effectiveness. Even the lowly fighter must continually strive for bigger, shinier swords to remain effective (and they still tend to lag behind at higher levels unless one of the psycho damage multiplying builds are used), wizards spend their cash on wands, staves, phylacteries, and building pimped out giant towers from which to hurl massive fireballs in order to compensate for their small :censored: . The second level wand is cheap at 4,500 and the competence bonus item can start at a +5 for 2,500 and be improved with levels and the accumulation of more wealth. I'd rather have a nice class that only works when you collect items that mesh with you abilities, than one thats nerfed so people can buy vorpal butter knives and other stupid stuff for their characters and still have them functioning at top power. Your build is full of non-core+ToM stuff. Again, core+ToM limits the competance bonus to +10. The listed varients for the items change only the slot used, not the bonus. *NO ONE* is arguing that if you allow for non-core and custom items, you can't break the Truespeak skill DC into tiny, tiny pieces. It isn't a solution. It is *PART* of the *PROBLEM*. -Kraydak
Trance Kuja 03-15-06, 11:58 AM	thats some real bull. a 20th level fighter isn't going to be relying on a +5 sword of asskickery to do damage. sure he will be able to do more. but even with a stcik he is still goin gto kick ass and take names. +20 base atack will do that for a fella. a wizard donsn't need a single magic item. they have 4 ninth level spells to play with. wishes, meteor swarms, disjunctions, and then of course 4 spells of every other level... fireballs, lighting bolts, invisibility, haste, slow, wall of force... they don't NEED a wand to be cool. they don't need any items to be freaking powerful. but if your a truenamer... at level 20 unless you have spent at least half your "expected" wealth on items just too boost your truename skill, then you are going to be UNABLE to use even a single class ability. thats beyond messed up. you play a wizard thats unable to cast any spells, or a cleric with no armor or spells, or a fighter with no feats, and no arms. or mabey a theif that is nothing more than a head with a foot growing out of the neck. because those characters will still be more useful than a level 20 truenamer. and what about games that don't use the standard wealth progression? like for example the worlds largest dungeon? or a dark sun style game, or a savage coast style game. if your going to be dependant on magic items JUST TO play a class then they need to be a class feature of the class, not something you have to figure out you need. wizards don't HAVE to have a wand, which is why the class doesn't automatically get one. But take a look at monte cooks magister class. they are wizards that require a staff to cast spells. so you know what? their staff is a class feature. its described in the class. if truenamers needed to have a magic item to make them able to speak the true names, then it needs to be a class feature, not an "option" optimization should be an option, not a requirment to useing a class. It is in this regard that the truenamer fails. You show me a 20th level fighter with a stick and no armor and I'll show you a dead fighter. How does he expect to overcome things like damage reduction? Thankfully wizards don't need much in terms of items because of their wonderful brokenness, however, many of their better spells require costly material components (stoneskin costing 250 gp a pop is one example) and many other options commonly taken by wizards, such as setting up strongholds to keep their clones safe, or becoming a lich and securing the phylactery in a way that insures their immortality. Every class has wealth and their own way of spending it (except VoP monks and druids, but what does wealth matter when you have insane super powers and eventual divine rank to look forward to). The items listed are no where near the total of expected character wealth for a 20th level chr. And you can pick up lesser versions of the items I used and scalle them up as you level. +2 headband of int 4,000 gp, +5 competence bonus item of whatever slot your dm wants (my dm is standing next to me as I type this saying "goggles slot") 2,500 gp. Me defending myself against whiners Priceless. Your build is full of non-core+ToM stuff. Again, core+ToM limits the competance bonus to +10. The listed varients for the items change only the slot used, not the bonus. *NO ONE* is arguing that if you allow for non-core and custom items, you can't break the Truespeak skill DC into tiny, tiny pieces. It isn't a solution. It is *PART* of the *PROBLEM*. -Kraydak First of all this is the CO boards, so you should expect custom items built with in the rules to show up in the posts here, and the spell in question is in the Spell Compendium I believe, which most decent gaming groups will be using. Even just using core + ToM you can get an 18 starting int with 5 from levels and 5 from a tome and a +6 enhancement item ( all core!) you get a +12 int mod. Skill Focus (duh also core!) gives a +3. The item from ToM gives a +10 ENHANCEMENT bonus (which stack with the +20 COMPETENCE BONUS ITEM I suggested, but then again I guess no one here ever uses magic items that don't show up in the DMG). Add all this together with a maxed out skill rank of 23 and you get 23+12+3+10= 48 mod, which with a DC 55 only requires a 7 or higher. If you went with a Grey Elf (from the MM which I'm pretty sure is CORE) you can boost the int by anoter 2 points for another int mod to the check. You say this is optimized, but I'd love for you to show me a wizard with an int less than 16 and no feats devoted to using his power and I'll show you a weenie in robes waiting to die. :evillaugh
Todd 03-15-06, 12:10 PM	Trance Kuja, the point is not that a fighter 20 with a club and no armor is as good as a fighter 20 with all his gear ... it’s that a naked fighter 20 with a club can still do *something* of use in combat. Yes the gear loss hurts a lot but it doesn’t cripple him. This is not true for a Namer. And while custom items are suggested for many things here it is *never* assumed that they are going to be allowed. By definition custom items require DM approval and you don’t always get that. If a class *requires* a custom item to be effective them something is just not right. Optimized characters are by definition better than unoptimized ones. However most classes don’t require you to optimize just to do *anything* in your core class abilities. In a non-optimized group every core class will be playable if not very good ...and the same is true for most other new classes. The Namer is an exception. If you don’t optimize you can’t use it at all.
Subedei 03-15-06, 12:16 PM	Now admittedly I haven't actually seen the class and there does seem to be a real scaling issue but at low to mid levels all seems fine. I guess this being the CO board and all people are perhaps disapointed in the power level but I rather enjoy its apparent restrictedness. The class should be very restricted in what it can do with true names most of the time but true names should be VERY effective when they do work. I think this whole research aspect needs a bit more fleshing out. Someone learning your true names should be something that takes a lot of time but something you REALLY want to stop.
Trance Kuja 03-15-06, 12:24 PM	It seems you ignored the last section of my post where I listed core ways of boosting your check to a reasonable lvl. You seem to have a very wide definition of optimizing. It seems according to you a wizard who devotes the majority of his wealth to upping his int is optimizing, to me it seems like common sense. How many people do you know who leave their wizard with a starting int of 16, or who get it to 19 so they can cast 9th level spells and then leave it there. Pumping you int and buying items designed specifically for your class and listed in the book your class comes from isn't optimization. Its freaking common sense. :rant:
Tweedledope 03-15-06, 12:26 PM	Just so you know...CustServ told me later that "We do NOT expect errata for this book because we feel the mechanics are sound. However, we will keep your concerns in mind." What a crock of ****.
GrimPunx 03-15-06, 12:29 PM	Trance Kuja, the point is not that a fighter 20 with a club and no armor is as good as a fighter 20 with all his gear ... it’s that a naked fighter 20 with a club can still do *something* of use in combat. Yes the gear loss hurts a lot but it doesn’t cripple him. This is not true for a Namer. Ok I may be the newist Member to the op bords or any other bords here...... but I have to say the fighter that dosen't have his gear, Could only happen in one of three ways. 1) asleep and attacked in the inn where your haveing....*insert good time here*.... and their hubsband walked in and smited you. 2) your in a party with a KENDER....self explaned 3) You own a cursed stick that pops in your hand when ever you look at someone with Hostile intent and are focred in to a rage. other wise your only use is to DIE for good of the party :schemes:
TheOne 03-15-06, 01:16 PM	Just so you know...CustServ told me later that "We do NOT expect errata for this book because we feel the mechanics are sound. However, we will keep your concerns in mind." Okay maybe NOW we flood them with e-mails...
Kraydak 03-15-06, 01:22 PM	First of all this is the CO boards, so you should expect custom items built with in the rules to show up in the posts here, and the spell in question is in the Spell Compendium I believe, which most decent gaming groups will be using. Even just using core + ToM you can get an 18 starting int with 5 from levels and 5 from a tome and a +6 enhancement item ( all core!) you get a +12 int mod. Skill Focus (duh also core!) gives a +3. The item from ToM gives a +10 ENHANCEMENT bonus (which stack with the +20 COMPETENCE BONUS ITEM I suggested, but then again I guess no one here ever uses magic items that don't show up in the DMG). Add all this together with a maxed out skill rank of 23 and you get 23+12+3+10= 48 mod, which with a DC 55 only requires a 7 or higher. If you went with a Grey Elf (from the MM which I'm pretty sure is CORE) you can boost the int by anoter 2 points for another int mod to the check. You say this is optimized, but I'd love for you to show me a wizard with an int less than 16 and no feats devoted to using his power and I'll show you a weenie in robes waiting to die. :evillaugh So, taking everything available from core (you can get another point or two from various items) you have 25%ish chance of failing your action against an equal foe, BEFORE SR and BEFORE he gets his save, which is charisma based. You just burned a huge fraction of your cash, a natural 18 and all your level up stat points in int. Bets on whether or not your foe is going to save? We aren't even talking about a BBEG, for which you are looking at an effective 75% spell failure, before counting the fact that Utterances are weak to begin with. Sure, you can use your utterances a decent number of times, but because their duration is pathetic, and you still can't really use them more often than a freaking wizard, when it counts (under time pressure). Oh, and have you seen the "defensive casting" monstrosity that Truenamers labor under?! Pure core+ToM, Truenamer=gimp. Other sources/HR, Truenamer=has a chance. He is still gimped by a pathetic list of Utterances, but hey, he can use them virtually infinite numbers of times a day! Because he is skill based though, you *simply will not be able* to hit the balanced center. -Kraydak
MysteryGilgamesh 03-15-06, 01:53 PM	Okay maybe NOW we flood them with e-mails... Okay, I'm now officially bleepin' bleeped. Whats the e-mail for Custserv?
Ed-Zero 03-15-06, 02:38 PM	It seems that a lot of people are forgetting about the Item Familiar, having an extra +23 to the rank seems like it would help a lot. I know it's not "core" but it is something that can be achieved (the item familiar that is) at 3rd level.
erc1971 03-15-06, 02:52 PM	Customer Service has received an email from me. I remained polite, but made it quite clear that I am very unhappy with such a shoddy product, and that I am amazed such an oversight slipped through Quality Control. On the bright side, I think WotC beat everyone in the forum for trying to optimize the most useless character ever :D
Some Like It Hot 03-15-06, 04:21 PM	Don't have the book yet, probly won't for awhile, but I do agree that being forced into optimization in order to use your primary class ability is a bit foolish. But, out of curiosity, do Dark Speech or Words of Creation make it into any of the Truenamer abilities, descriptions etc. Seems like they would at least warrant mention, what with such synergetic flavor and all. -SLIH
erc1971 03-15-06, 05:25 PM	I did get a response from customer service, regarding thier previous responses of the book working as intended and no errata was planned. Thier response was... " The best we can do here in Customer Service is to pass your concerns along to the proper departments so that they may see the input of our Customer Base and learn how you feel about a certain subject. This is exactly what I am going to do, pass this feedback along. Beyond that we in customer service do not make decisions to errata any of our books and cannot say whether or not we will or will not be adding specific errata to a source book. As of now, with the information we have, and the fact that this is a new source book, I can say that there are no current plans for errata. This does not mean that it may not be errata'd in the future, it just means that the book just came out and errata has not been posted for it as of now." At least this sounds a bit more promising. No errata being planned really means that no information concerning errata has been passed on to the customer service department; it does not mean they are leaving it as is.
MysteryGilgamesh 03-15-06, 05:49 PM	I sent my own complaint to CustServ as well, just to add another voice to the slowly growing masses, and to express my distinct displeasure at seeing such a shoddy mechanic make it into an otherwise high-quality product. "2 out of 3 isn't bad" is not acceptable to me, as a gamer. Politely worded, of course.
Sigma34561 03-15-06, 05:51 PM	i agree with customer service. the truename magic is mechanically sound given the current trend of every player to min-max thier character. however I DONT WANT TO PLAY A FREAKIN GAME THAT IS "SOUND"!!!!!!!! I WANT TO PLAY A GAME THAT IS FUN!!!! The truename magic system has fallen to mechanic politics. They had two options, make a good class that can be easily abused, or make a crappy class that could only be used if it was optimized in every way. I dare someone to pimp out this charcter in every way possible. Min-Max the hell out of it. Then do the same with any other character class and comapre. Its like beeing a minority in the workforce!! I know what its like to be a woman now because I have seen the truenamer. I have to work harder just to be considered an equal. The truenamer has to jump through all the hoops the other casters do... but his are higher, on fire, and given teeth and animated so they try and bite him as he leaps through! I WILL NOT BOW DOWN TO MECHANICS! **pant, pant pant*** sorry about the rant
Taliesin52 03-15-06, 06:22 PM	On the plus side, as best as anyone can tell elsewhere on here or on another major forum, Utterances of the (somethingoranother) Map use the unattended item DC. So while I may not be able to to give my friend the fighter a +1 to hit, I can apparantly Earthquake or Gate (I belive gate was one of the abilities) all the live long day with relative ease.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-15-06, 06:37 PM	:nonono: Do y'all want some cheese with your whine? There's absolutely zero point in arguing about how "difficult" something is to "optimize." If you're not "up for it" you can pick one of the many other options available to you. Writing to Cust-Serv won't change a damn thing... I have never seen a "core mechanic" changed in any errata. So it looks like you'll just have to suck it up and figure out how to get around the uber DC checks. Once I get the book, I'll give my best crack at the problem. Complaining alone never solved anything.
Sigma34561 03-15-06, 06:48 PM	well in addition to my complaining, ive sent e-mails and have called them. as far as im concerned, unless this is fixed, this is the worst mechanic ever... any game i run is going to use DC 15+CR Truespeak cannot benefit from Enhancement, Competence, Synergy, Morale, Profane, or Divine Bonuses. Using someones truename increases the DC to speak it, the saving throw, and caster lvl vs SR by +4 At 11th and 16th or 17th level the bonuses granted by knowings someones truename increase each time by +1 This is what makes most sense to me, and it leaves little room for cheese, and extra space for metamagic stuff.
xvthreetwoonevx 03-15-06, 07:51 PM	I dunno, I think with a small amount of work the crazy Truespeak DC's can be hit. I don't own the book, but do Speakers use Cha as a primary stat? If so, I don't see any reason for them not to just take Leadership and just have a whole cult of truespeakers dedicated to the "Aid Another" action in battle. Homunculi and other assorted constructs can help too, if you give them that feat in the EbCS (I think) that gives them a new class skill. All in all doesn't seem terribly hard to hit the DC's, but I do think it deserves errata, but is at least moderately playable with a small amount of work involved until it receives some.
Sigma34561 03-15-06, 08:02 PM	correction.... you dont own the book and havent read all of this thread. Truespeak is based on intelligence, the saves are based on charisma. You cant aid someone in truespeak check. If you take time out of your Truespeaker class to take 4 levels of artificer, you are already way too far behind to even care about truespeaking against anything tough. The bottom line is that at higher levels you NEED magic items to be able to use your class abilites. It is impossible for you to make a check without a silver tounge amulet and a headband of intellect. As long as people buy the book, wizards doesnt care if it works or not. Lucky for them 2/3rd of the book is buyable, people are gonna get it, and we are gonna get screwed.
TwoSix26 03-15-06, 08:30 PM	correction.... You cant aid someone in truespeak check. Page reference for that? I see nothing in the Truespeak description to that effect. If you take time out of your Truespeaker class to take 4 levels of artificer, you are already way too far behind to even care about truespeaking against anything tough. Why? If anything, Truenamer is a great class to multiclass. You only need to increase your skill to keep up with the checks. You lose out on the high level utterances, but that's not as bad as losing a full caster level is to a wizard. The bottom line is that at higher levels you NEED magic items to be able to use your class abilites. It is impossible for you to make a check without a silver tounge amulet and a headband of intellect. That's the downside to a skill-based magic system. It's tough to balance...too little magic items, and none of your abilities work. Too much, and you never stop casting. Doesn't mean it's a bad system. The prestige classes are wonderful, as is the mechanic of various truename spells. It's just a shame the truenamer isn't quite where I would hope it would be, although I'd still play one. Except that I really want to play a binder. :D
Sigma34561 03-15-06, 08:51 PM	well if you want to waste more of your resources on it, you CAN spend a feat to make Truespeak a class skill, otherwise you will have to cross class. But as we can see, we need all our truespeaking resources just to tread water. AND... as per PHB You cannt aid someone in a task that you could not accomplish yourself. The example is that someone couldnt help a rogue find a trap if they dont have the trapfinding skill. So if all of your assitants can use utterances, and of the apropriate utteranaces from the correct lexicons, then you can start to make a case to your DM (see below). Also, it suggests that aid another wont work in "many" cases becaue other characters help just wont be beneficial. I dont know how many people have ever helped you speak before... As for a group of people trying to assist your speaking, as a DM I would rule that all those speaking while you are would be very counterproductive. In fact you might be deafened by all that noise and suffer a 20% failure chance from being deaf. This is pretty close to the ruling that three people cant help someone stabalize a dying person. and now we are back to the beginning.
Tweedledope 03-15-06, 09:16 PM	I REALLY want to see this fixed. When I first started to read the section on Truename Magic, I started to salivate at the idea of an Illumian Truenamer...it is PERFECT flavor. We're trying to find out how to remedy the situation in our current campaign. What does everyone think of 15 + (1.5 x HD/CR) for the DC? That seems fairly sound to me with a DC in the 40s at 20th level. To me, the DC 15 + CR/HD is way too week with DCs easily met in the 30s. -=TD=-
hogarth 03-15-06, 09:32 PM	I REALLY want to see this fixed. When I first started to read the section on Truename Magic, I started to salivate at the idea of an Illumian Truenamer...it is PERFECT flavor. We're trying to find out how to remedy the situation in our current campaign. What does everyone think of 15 + (1.5 x HD/CR) for the DC? That seems fairly sound to me with a DC in the 40s at 20th level. To me, the DC 15 + CR/HD is way too week with DCs easily met in the 30s. -=TD=- Honestly, why not try playtesting it first? If it doesn't work out, then you would have more data to propose various fixes. It seems like a lot of people have posted very strong opinions based on not much practical experience to date.
Encard 03-15-06, 09:42 PM	well if you want to waste more of your resources on it, you CAN spend a feat to make Truespeak a class skill, otherwise you will have to cross class. But as we can see, we need all our truespeaking resources just to tread water. Just hopping in to note that this isn't all that bad - since it's a skill, as long as you have at least one level of Truenamer, you can still get maximum ranks in the skill. It'll cost you two points per rank without Able Learner or something similar, but in a lot cases that doesn't really matter - for many builds/classes skills aren't really relevant anyway, so this is as good a place as any to spend them, and better than many. Able Learner is often a worthwhile investment anyway, though. *hops back out wishing he had the book*
Seeker of Truth 03-15-06, 09:45 PM	I REALLY want to see this fixed. When I first started to read the section on Truename Magic, I started to salivate at the idea of an Illumian Truenamer...it is PERFECT flavor. We're trying to find out how to remedy the situation in our current campaign. What does everyone think of 15 + (1.5 x HD/CR) for the DC? That seems fairly sound to me with a DC in the 40s at 20th level. To me, the DC 15 + CR/HD is way too week with DCs easily met in the 30s. -=TD=- I think lowering the DC to 1.5xCR will prove to be a mistake if you don't limit some of the easy ways to boost skills. If you disallow competance and/or circumstance bonuses. DnD has a problem with skill scaling. It's why UMD can be brokenly powerful when emulating caster level. It's why noone can ever reasonably expect to save vs bardic fascinate of a half optimized bard. I believe that in playtesting they finally discovered this with trunaming so they "fixed" it by upping the DCs so high. These high DCs basically force some characters to use some of these methods to boost their naming if they want to be an effective truenamer. Even with the DCs as high as they are I expect we'll see a build that can routinely make DC 100 naming checks on these boards by the end of the month. My caution to you is that if you lower the DCs significantly and don't restrict the means of boosting the skill ... well be prepaired for trunamers that hurl around basically unlimited numbers of quickened utterances.
belthazzar1113 03-15-06, 10:59 PM	to the people complaining that we are just trying to "optimize" the class, get over yourself. This disscussion might be taking place on the CO boards, but thats because people here are very good at seeing the numbers behind the fluff. Most of the people on this thread arn't trying to break the system. thats pretty easy to do. most of us are trying to find a way to balance the system. so we can just ditch the "would you like some cheeze with your whine" stuff now eh? secondly i don't like just changing the core mechanic out of hand. I would rather give a bounus on the check rather than have the mechanic reworked. my solutions that i have worked out with my fellow gamers are to give the namer class a bonus on its truespeak checks equal to its base attack. this gives them a 2/3rds bounus which makes most of the checks attainable for a namer. and seems like a good mechanic
Mouseferatu 03-15-06, 11:30 PM	secondly i don't like just changing the core mechanic out of hand. I would rather give a bounus on the check rather than have the mechanic reworked. my solutions that i have worked out with my fellow gamers are to give the namer class a bonus on its truespeak checks equal to its base attack. this gives them a 2/3rds bounus which makes most of the checks attainable for a namer. and seems like a good mechanic Heh. I just suggested the exact same thing over on ENWorld, for people who don't want to rely on magic items at high levels. :) Haven't tested it yet, of course.
Sigma34561 03-16-06, 12:38 AM	Adding BAB to the check would solve the problem, i belive, but then it would tip the balance back in the other direction. Now something that was ok when maxed out is now overpowered when maxed out. Dont forget that the class can still gate and earthquake at only a DC 25. I do agree that I would be hesistant to change a core mechanic, but if there was one time to do so?..
Mouseferatu 03-16-06, 12:48 AM	Adding BAB to the check would solve the problem, i belive, but then it would tip the balance back in the other direction. Now something that was ok when maxed out is now overpowered when maxed out. Dont forget that the class can still gate and earthquake at only a DC 25. My suggestion over on ENWorld was that if you add in a bonus to utterance checks, you also use the following modification to the area effect rule: "The DC to cast an area effect utterance equals 25 or the DC to affect the highest CR creature in that area, whichever is higher."
Sigma34561 03-16-06, 12:52 AM	i can dig that. what about True Name reasearch. It hardly seems worth the time. Suggestions?
xanadu 03-16-06, 01:51 AM	I for one am glad the Truename mechanic is too hard rather than too easy. Wizards is learning. If a spellcasting mechanic were too easy to have unlimited uses, lots of folks cry "BROKE!" Now, about only keeping core in mind. I'm glad they didn't because they know damn well they have to keep splatbooks in mind to balance things. Divine Metamagic is a cool idea, but with splat nightsticks every damn cleric walks around with persistant divine might. That is stupid, boring, broken, etc. You honestly think that within two weeks, someone here wont find a way to easily get a string of utterances with virtually 100% chance of success? I'd say you underestimate the creativity of these boards. I see use magic device scores in the 200s and handle animal checks which can train collosal vermin in seconds and now all of a sudden a DC check of 60 is a challenge? The first thing I would suggest it to use a competence item of +30 rather than +20 (I believe that is the highest value possible and I think I saw some +20 items in the calculations). Now, I kind of like the idea of getting away from # of days and instead making it progressively more difficult, though I wouldn't not have done it with a skill check since the boards have figured out a way to get them in the 200s. One other thing. Is it not a safe assumption the the three authors noticed the DC check. I'm going to go out on a limb and say "yes" :rolleyes: Customer service is not going to give you the answer you seek nor are they going to go to these authors and say, "Yeah, the character optimisers cant figure it out, should we dumb it down and issue errata?" I think it is a waste of time to email customer service because it is not their jobs to tell you how to play truenamers. I will admit that it is somewhat awkward that one must optimise a class to play it effectively and perhaps the way it was meant to be played, but that is *far* better than the alternative - where optimising breaks the class.
Otto the Bugbear 03-16-06, 10:09 AM	I think it is a waste of time to email customer service because it is not their jobs to tell you how to play truenamers. What kind of nonsense is this? It's their job to provide a service to the customers of WotC. Answering questions about how the mechanic works and passing on concerns to the design team is the very essense of their job. That's why custserv exists. Or do you have a different vision of what custserv is supposed to do? Perhaps you could share it with us. Cheers Otto :)
Taliesin52 03-16-06, 10:26 AM	I for one am glad the Truename mechanic is too hard rather than too easy. Wizards is learning. If a spellcasting mechanic were too easy to have unlimited uses, lots of folks cry "BROKE!" In some ways it is "balanced." While it may be impossible for a Lvl. 20 to give a Lvl. 20 ally an AC bonus with Defensive Edge (DC 55) without creating your own magic items, it is easy to cast Earthquake or Gate (DC 25) many times without fail. Unfortunately, I don't understand the reasoning behind +1 AC being more than twice as powerful as either of those two spells.
Ignatius Metamorphic 03-16-06, 10:55 AM	I only got the book yesterday, but I think the Truenamer should do fine at 20th level. Let me explain. Assume a reasonable 20th level truenamer. +23 (ranks) +5 (Int bonus) -- Start at 15 + 5 level bonuses +3 (Skill Focus) +3 (Headband of Intellect +6) +10 (Greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue) +44 Total People are right when they say that the Truenamer won't be able to reliably affect the BBEG (Level 20, DC 55 (15+ 2x20)) directly. But the Truenamer is not an evoker, he still has lots of options. For example, using the Lexicon of the Perfect Map RND 1: Speak Quickened Deny Passage (DC 45 (25 base +20 quicken)) and trap the BBEG in one place for one minute. I will automatically make the 45 DC. If I feel lucky I can boost the DC by 5 (DC 50) to eliminate spell resistance. Then Speak Thwart the Traveller (DC 25 or 30 to eliminate spell resistance) so the BBEG can't teleport away. Again, I can automaticaly make the roll. RND 2: Speak empowered Energy Vortex (DC 40 (25 base + 10 empowered + 5 automatically make spell resistance) delivering 3D6 energy damage (no save, no sr) for 1 minute. That's 30D6 damage (105 hp). and/or Speak Conjunctive Gate (DC 25) and Gate in some really nasty creatures to attack the BBEG. If I want, I could quicken this (DC 45 (25 base + 20 quicken)) and hit the BBEG with both the Empowered Energy Vortex and the Conjunctive Gate. Again, I'm automatically making these rolls. and/or Speak Anger of the Sleeping Earth (DC 25). At DC 25 I can Speak this utterance every round for 10 rounds. He's not going anywhere so I can keep speaking until he fall in a fissure and is killed. Again, I'm automatically making these rolls. Even if I don't have the Greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue, I can still do most of what I listed above. I just won't be able to reliably quicken or empower my utterances. But, I'm hardly useless. If you don't like the above strategy, I could use the Lexicon of the Crafted Tool to Mess with the BBEG's weapons and armour. Let's say the BBEG is wearing +5 armour. With a DC 45 (15 + 2 x 15 (caster level)) I can supress his armour bonus. If I'm worried about Spell resistance I increase the DC by 5 to 50. The fighter in the party will love me as he power attacks the BBEG into oblivion. Those are just two quick examples of what a 20th level Truenamer could do to a BBEG. I'm sure that as people actually play the class even more tactics will spring to mind. I'm not sure the mechanic is broken, I think we haven't figured out how to play it yet. Ignatius
Nairalimis 03-16-06, 11:27 AM	Another problem is that a lot of Utterances don't allow saving throws, which means the Truespeak check is supposed to be the chance of failure for the effect. Unfortunately, if you use the system as written, with magical aid it becomes impossible to fail Lexicon of the Map or Tool checks, even if they're meta-utteranced and SR bypassing out the wazoo. You can just keep tossing them out left and right. Even without custom magical items, doing that isn't hard, since a DC of 25 is 18 below a reasonably focused Truenamer's base bonus. For Truename research, why not allow it to bypass SR (as taking +5 on a truespeak check) and either double the Truenamer's natural Charisma bonus for the save DC, or allow a free utterance feat (limit which ones perhaps) to be applied chosen at the time research is successful. Against a target, you take a +2 DC to naming, but save +7-+12 for the time and money spent against that one target, since you get the advantages of ignoring SR (usually a +5 to DC), and a metautterance (+5-+10, if you leave out Quickened Utterance). That said, here's an attempt to break the Truenamer. Let's assume a 20th level truenamer with a natrual Int of 20, Skill Focus Truespeak, a maxed out skill, a greater amulet of the silver tongue , and +30 circumstance item, say ring of the divine lungs, and a +6 headband of intellect, and +6 Cloak of Charisma with our 18 Charisma. Thus, we have a +73 to our truespeak checks, and a save DC of 27. To affect a creature of equal CR, we need a 55, which we can always make, although we'll want to be careful with meta-utterances. To affect the landscape or non-magical items, we need a 25, which we can always make quickened, and otherwise enchanced. Using Lexicon of the Evolving Mind, we can quickly make a reversed Greater Word of Nuturing (10d6 damage) Empowered, Extended, and bypass SR for a DC of 73. That's 15d6 untyped damage with no SR and save allowed, which can be done 3 times (inital utterance, second round, and third round). That same round, use a Quickened Deny Passage that automatically overcomes SR (DC 50). So, your target is trapped and taking damage. Or use Shockwave to knock down a target, but that allows a save. Fog From the Void is probably a better way to keep pesky ranged people from shooting at you while you kill them. Any of those three will have a DC of 50, so pick the most applicable. While you're concentrating, toss out a Quickened, Empowered (Acid) Energy Vortex that bypassed SR with a mere DC of 60. That's 3d6 Acid damage per round in the area, so we've got 15d6 for round 1, 18d6 for round 2, Round 3 just needs a Quickened Critical Word of Healing (DC 75, our highest yet) which means there's potentially 26d6 damage (if the target hasn't escaped the acid storm, or has acid resistance) and another 8d6 in the fourth round. After that, use another maxed out reversed Greater Word of Nuturing (DC 75), and if the target's still in the Acid Vortex, quicken reversed Energy Negation (DC 75) to add another 2d6 damage onto that. Switch off to a maxed out (though not quickened) reversed Critical Word of Healing three rounds later. Flipping between the two of them, you should have a pretty good shot at killing stuff good. Especially if they're trapped via Deny Passage and lack the acid resistance or fast healing to deal with the Acid Energy Vortex, since you can quicken and repeat another Deny Passage and Energy Vortex when the first fails. With just a greater amulet of silver tongue, a +10 circumstance bonus item, and the headband, your +53 truespeak should be enough to use Empowered Extended SR bypassing Energy Vortices, along with a Quickened Extended SR bypassing Deny Passage to just trap and kill anything without a type of energy resistance or fast healing/regen. That's a DC of 45 for the vortex, and 55 for the Deny Passage. As long as your target lacks those, or dispell magic/anti-magic, you can just use those two utterances (along withThwart the Traveller if they have teleportation) to trap and wear them down. You can even steal items (Seize Item) or use a regular reversed Greater/Critial Word of Nuturing while they're trapped. [Edit: Beaten to the punch for the Deny Passage, Energy Vortex trick. Though stealing BBEG's equiptment is almost as fun as supressing it, assuming BBEG doesn't have a massive attack bonus.]
Scud-O 03-16-06, 11:51 AM	I think that's the core problem, REALLY. I posted this a few pages back, but was mostly ignored - A Truenamer is supposed to be using more Utterences from The Lexicon of the Crafted Tool and The Lexicon of the Perfected Map at higher levels (with their static DC of 25). Giving your 20th Level ally a +1 to AC is much less desireable than using a Gate-equivalent. Do wizards complain that their 0 and 1st-level spells become less useful as time goes on? Nope. AND...it says, right in the book, that EVERY SERIOUS TREUNAMER buys an Amulet of the Silver Tongue. EVERY ONE. They are cheap. You can afford the lesser version at 2nd-3rd level, the greater version at 6th-7th level (using the DMG's Estimated PC Wealth table). Everyone is screaming, "But I shouldn't HAVE to use a magic item to effectively use my class abilities!" (You don't. Not the ones that Wizards of the Coast assumes you would be focusing on in later levels.) Well, welcome to the world of skill-based magic - as has been pointed out SEVERAL times, skills are WAY TOO EASY to abuse. So, in order to balance it, you have to err on the side of too tough, then introduce a non-skill-point based form of remediation (the Amulet of the Silver Tongue). The "necessary" magic item is part of balancing a skill-based magic system.
Ignatius Metamorphic 03-16-06, 12:14 PM	I think that's the core problem, REALLY. I posted this a few pages back, but was mostly ignored - A Truenamer is supposed to be using more Utterences from The Lexicon of the Crafted Tool and The Lexicon of the Perfected Map at higher levels (with their static DC of 25). Giving your 20th Level ally a +1 to AC is much less desireable than using a Gate-equivalent. Do wizards complain that their 0 and 1st-level spells become less useful as time goes on? Nope. AND...it says, right in the book, that EVERY SERIOUS TREUNAMER buys an Amulet of the Silver Tongue. EVERY ONE. They are cheap. You can afford the lesser version at 2nd-3rd level, the greater version at 6th-7th level (using the DMG's Estimated PC Wealth table). Everyone is screaming, "But I shouldn't HAVE to use a magic item to effectively use my class abilities!" (You don't. Not the ones that Wizards of the Coast assumes you would be focusing on in later levels.) Well, welcome to the world of skill-based magic - as has been pointed out SEVERAL times, skills are WAY TOO EASY to abuse. So, in order to balance it, you have to err on the side of too tough, then introduce a non-skill-point based form of remediation (the Amulet of the Silver Tongue). The "necessary" magic item is part of balancing a skill-based magic system. Mea Culpa. I actually read your post yesterday, which got me thinking when I picked up the book. That's why I posted a set of tactics that an average (non-optimized) Truenamer could effectively use at level 20. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that the Truenamer would have decent magic item for his level. At level 20 everyone has a headband or a periapt or a cloak to boost their primary stat. Even without ANY magic items a Truenamer can expect to have at least a +31 on Truename checks (23 ranks +5 ability bonus +3 skill focus). This would allow him to speak any utterance from the Lexicon of the Perfect Map (modified to ignore spell resistance) without being able to fail the roll. He could pump out 4 Anger of the Sleeping Earths before having to roll. What I think people have missed is that a Truenamer has three sets of tools. For low CR targets, he uses the Lexicon of the Evolving Mind. For mid CR targets, he uses the Lexicon of the Crafted Tool, and against high CR targets he is using the Lexicon of the Perfect Map. A reasonably constructed Truenamer can be effective at all levels. Sometimes he is dealing damage directly to his enemies and buffing his allies. Sometimes he is boosting his allies items and negeting those of his enemies. Sometimes he is pins his enemies to the ground and rains hellfire down on them. I think a lot of people are also forgetting that many utterances have no saving throw and with a +5 to the DC, the Truenamer can automatically overcome the targets spell resistance.
Todd 03-16-06, 12:16 PM	Do wizards complain that their 0 and 1st-level spells become less useful as time goes on? Nope. Yes Cure Light Wounds is much less potent at 20th level than it is at 1st ... but the Cleric can still cast it and it still situationally useful. It’s not like the mechanics take away that spell or actually make it harder to cast at higher levels the way naming does. The basic IDEA of skill based magic and it being harder to affect a higher level character than a lower one is perfectly OK. I’m even good with the idea of a namer needing an amulet to do useful things against a BBEG or whatever. What I don’t like is that the Namer can cure a few of his own HP at 1st level but effectively can’t do it at 20th even if he has his “required” amulet.
Scud-O 03-16-06, 12:38 PM	What I don’t like is that the Namer can cure a few of his own HP at 1st level but effectively can’t do it at 20th even if he has his “required” amulet. Not true. SITUATION: Level 20 Truenamer using Word of Nuturing, Greater on himself. TRUESPEAK DC: 15 + [2 x 20] + 2 (using his own Personal Truename) = 57 TRUESPEAK MODIFIER: (Assuming a starting INT of 16) 23 (ranks in Truespeak) + 5 (INT 21 [all 5 stat bumps]) + 4 (pronouncing his own Personal Truename) + 10 (Greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue) = 42 D20 ROLL NEEDED TO SUCCEED: 15 Easy? Nope. Impossible? Nope. Add a Headband of Intellect +4 and the needed roll drops to 13. Start with INT 18, and the roll drops to 12. No, he isn't always going to say the Utterence correctly. But there is no negative (outside losing the action) to trying. And again, the problem here is that the TRUENAMER's role shifts throughout his career - early on, he is an ally buffer and secondary blaster/controller; mid-levels he is an item buffer/debuffer; high-levels he is more a blaster/controller. Yes, your Lexicon of the Evolving Mind Utterences are harder to use, but they are supposed to be because they are lesser word of power, unable to make large scale changes in creatures. The more I argue about this (and subsequently put mor thought into the class) the more I am sure that my next character will be a Truenamer. It's truly a brand-new category of character.
MysteryGilgamesh 03-16-06, 12:42 PM	A Truenamer is supposed to be using more Utterences from The Lexicon of the Crafted Tool and The Lexicon of the Perfected Map at higher levels (with their static DC of 25). Everyone is screaming, "But I shouldn't HAVE to use a magic item to effectively use my class abilities!" Well, welcome to the world of skill-based magic - as has been pointed out SEVERAL times, skills are WAY TOO EASY to abuse. The "necessary" magic item is part of balancing a skill-based magic system. So you're supposed to ignore your primary lexicon? The entire class is just supposed to go "Oops, this is too hard, lets now stop using anything with a scaling DC and concentrate only on these 9 abilities we get by 20th level"? I find that to be a pretty bad assumption at best. It's pretty obvious the core of the class is the Evolving Mind, considering that you get 20 of them by 20th. And therein is the problem: You shouldn't have to powergame to use your core class abilities. You also can't afford to dump everything into Int, because the class is more than just Utterances, it's also decently combat-ready, and focused towards plenty of buffing, and Utt's are Cha-based for DC anyway. For instance, here is an example as if we're 20th level, using a modest, non-powergamed example, and without custom items, or items from a dozen different sources. The problem here, is you're not thinking on a solely core+ToM level, with a modest PB or non-uberized stats/races. So let's see: 23 Ranks+6 Int mod (Base Int of 16+6 enhancement bonus to Int)+10 enhancement from Amulet of the Silver Tongue=39. Thats it. The only other possible addition is Skill Focus. And you'll fail your checks 80% of the time, before you even start to factor in the penalty for using an Utt more than once, or SR, or metautt's, or saving throws. And if you don't have an Amulet? You'll never make any LEM utt's. And it's blatently absurd for you to say "Well, you're just gonna have to ignore 20 of your abilities.". Even wizards and clerics still get great use out of low level powers at any level (Scorching Rays, Magic Missiles, Divine Favors, Blesses, and more!) Should a wiz/cleric be forced to walk around with an 80%+ failure rate for 75%ish of the spells they know? Because thats what it's like with a Truenamer, as is. And the notion that skills are too hard to balance is also completely absurd, unless you're the sort of GM who allows anything without even questioning it's relative level of power and how it will affect your game. Any skill is going to be stupidly broken when you allow someone a +10 enhancement+10 competance+15 insight+50 guys aiding you+a marshal cohort+a race that synchs up well with the skill+X insert bonus here from half a dozen items items/wands to any skill. This should be common sense. You can't balance a class based on the idea that someone, somewhere, might, maybe go to stupid lengths to abuse it, because then we have a situation like we have now, where a normal, non-optimized guy cannot possibly use the class at high levels. Simply put, an average, non-optimized to the hilt truenamer, will be neutered of 20 out of 29 of his abilities. This. Is. Not. Right. The class shouldn't need an item to get by. Items are meant to enhance...Not be a requirement for you to even function or use your own class abilities you spent all that time slaying hordes of beasties to get. A fighter with just a stick can still use all of his abilities, and so can a buck naked wizard with just a component pouch. So why should a truenamer be forced to cling desperately to items for fear he won't be able to use his vaunted "names=power" powers?
Taliesin52 03-16-06, 01:18 PM	I only got the book yesterday, but I think the Truenamer should do fine at 20th level. Let me explain. Assume a reasonable 20th level truenamer. +23 (ranks) +5 (Int bonus) -- Start at 15 + 5 level bonuses +3 (Skill Focus) +3 (Headband of Intellect +6) +10 (Greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue) +44 Total People are right when they say that the Truenamer won't be able to reliably affect the BBEG (Level 20, DC 55 (15+ 2x20)) directly. But the Truenamer is not an evoker, he still has lots of options. For example, using the Lexicon of the Perfect Map RND 1: Speak Quickened Deny Passage (DC 45 (25 base +20 quicken)) and trap the BBEG in one place for one minute. I will automatically make the 45 DC. If I feel lucky I can boost the DC by 5 (DC 50) to eliminate spell resistance. Then Speak Thwart the Traveller (DC 25 or 30 to eliminate spell resistance) so the BBEG can't teleport away. Again, I can automaticaly make the roll. RND 2: Speak empowered Energy Vortex (DC 40 (25 base + 10 empowered + 5 automatically make spell resistance) delivering 3D6 energy damage (no save, no sr) for 1 minute. That's 30D6 damage (105 hp). and/or Speak Conjunctive Gate (DC 25) and Gate in some really nasty creatures to attack the BBEG. If I want, I could quicken this (DC 45 (25 base + 20 quicken)) and hit the BBEG with both the Empowered Energy Vortex and the Conjunctive Gate. Again, I'm automatically making these rolls. and/or Speak Anger of the Sleeping Earth (DC 25). At DC 25 I can Speak this utterance every round for 10 rounds. He's not going anywhere so I can keep speaking until he fall in a fissure and is killed. Again, I'm automatically making these rolls. Even if I don't have the Greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue, I can still do most of what I listed above. I just won't be able to reliably quicken or empower my utterances. But, I'm hardly useless. If you don't like the above strategy, I could use the Lexicon of the Crafted Tool to Mess with the BBEG's weapons and armour. Let's say the BBEG is wearing +5 armour. With a DC 45 (15 + 2 x 15 (caster level)) I can supress his armour bonus. If I'm worried about Spell resistance I increase the DC by 5 to 50. The fighter in the party will love me as he power attacks the BBEG into oblivion. Those are just two quick examples of what a 20th level Truenamer could do to a BBEG. I'm sure that as people actually play the class even more tactics will spring to mind. I'm not sure the mechanic is broken, I think we haven't figured out how to play it yet. Ignatius I don't have my book with me, but regarding LotCT abilities, isn't the DC regarding caster level of the item ONLY for unattended items? I was under the impression that if the BBEG (or your ally) is holding the item, the DC goes back to our 15+(2xCR).
MysteryGilgamesh 03-16-06, 01:27 PM	I don't have my book with me, but regarding LotCT abilities, isn't the DC regarding caster level of the item ONLY for unattended items? I was under the impression that if the BBEG (or your ally) is holding the item, the DC goes back to our 15+(2xCR). Thats a good question...If you're right, the Truenamer is in even more trouble than previously thought. Also, you can't re-use the same utterance when it's in effect already.
dougemes 03-16-06, 01:30 PM	OK, I don't have this book, but am I misreading post #12? 1) speak language is added to the namer skill list. for every two languages you speak you get a +1 synergy bonus on truespeak. Each language contains fragmented parts of the truespeech and by learning how to speak the tongues of all races you grow in understanding of the fragments of truespeech contained therein. I'm assuming this is not in the book (the bonus from languages known,the original poster doesn't make it extremely clear), because this would be SERIOUSLY broken. For example, Tongues (A level 5 wizard could cast it or a 4th level bard with a high enough stat, it could be a potion by the core) would give you a bonus of --> (Num_spoken_languages_in_your_campaign div 2)
Ignatius Metamorphic 03-16-06, 01:31 PM	I don't have my book with me, but regarding LotCT abilities, isn't the DC regarding caster level of the item ONLY for unattended items? I was under the impression that if the BBEG (or your ally) is holding the item, the DC goes back to our 15+(2xCR). No, here is the quote from the Lexicon of the Crafted Tool, pg. 247 second column. "It you target an item wielded or carried by a creature with spell resistance, the item gains the benefit of that ability. However, any item targeted by one of those utterances -- weilded or not -- does not get to save to avoid the effect." So -- with Utterances from the Lexicon of the Crafted Tool -- the item gets NO SAVE and the spell resistance of the wielder. With a +5 to your Truespeak check you can AUTOMATICALLY make your spell resistance check. This is powerful.
Ignatius Metamorphic 03-16-06, 01:33 PM	Thats a good question...If you're right, the Truenamer is in even more trouble than previously thought. Not to mention Ignatius' example has a slight flaw: You can't re-use the same utterance when it's in effect already. So you can't continue throwing out Earthquake's, you need to let the whole duration run it's course, first (which is 1 min. long, I think? I forget...). No, the duration of Anger The Sleeping Earth is 1 round. You can speak it every round if you want.
Nairalimis 03-16-06, 01:45 PM	Originally Posted by Scud-O I think that's the core problem, REALLY. I posted this a few pages back, but was mostly ignored - A Truenamer is supposed to be using more Utterences from The Lexicon of the Crafted Tool and The Lexicon of the Perfected Map at higher levels (with their static DC of 25). Giving your 20th Level ally a +1 to AC is much less desireable than using a Gate-equivalent. Do wizards complain that their 0 and 1st-level spells become less useful as time goes on? Nope. I agree, at high levels a Truenamer using his Lexicon of the Crafted Tool and Perfected Map can be useful at various lvels, but I think it's wrong that the Lexicon of the Evolving Mind was meant to only be used at low levels. A truenamer doesn't get access to 6th level utterances in Evolving Mind until 18th level, and they seem to be the sort of thing that is supposed to be used at high levels. If LOW level utterances were less useful due to their miniscule effects, that would be fine, but seemingly potent effects are almost useless. The other Lexicons are also very limited in their selection, both how many a namer can have and how many exist. You get 5 of 10 Crafted tool utterances, and 4 of 12 Perfected Map utterances, unless you use feats to pick up low level utterances. A Truenamer can't use Deny Passage and Conjunctive Gate until 25th level, since they get a new Map utterance every 4 levels, and don't get access to 4th level utterances to level 20. Yes, if you build a truenamer around Deny Passage, Energy Vortex, and Thwart the Traveller, you're an excellent traper-killer, but that's almost all you can do. I don't mind if the role of a truenamer changes, as long as it doesn't invalidate most of the class features, like MysteryGilgamesh noted. I'll also admit a high level namer is an exceptionally good buffer of mid level allies. Our CR 20 namer can, with minimal magical enhancement beyond headbands of intellect and amulets of the silver tongue make a Dire Tiger into a Celestial, Fast Healing 20, blind fighting, with Greater Knights Pussiance in 2 rounds. Toss on some of that Fog from the Void, and you've probably made it something that can fight your enemies for you. Great, and if the class had said it was supposed to be some sort of familiar/minion buffer, I might not mind. Heck, the idea of playing a namer with trained pets of lower CR, which he buffs while using the other utterances to blast/bother enemies is a fun one. But the classes utterances are clearly designed to have the option to hurt enemies or buff allies, even at high levels. The problem is, enough of the Utterances lack any save, that they need a chance of failure to be fair to enemies. But most of the utterances scale too quickly, which makes them useless outside of a small sweet spot, while at high level the static utterances are ripe for abuse. I'd prefer if Lexicon of the Evolving Mind was the one that lacked saves, and scaled with enemies, where Lexicon of the Perfected Map has the saves, but low base DCs to speak. Drop all the enhancements that you can use to tweak out your truename score, and reduce the enemy DC to something reasonable. You've got a balanced class which has options about what utterances to use. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea behind the truenamer, and I could even play one as it's currently set up. I'd rather see a class that I can play without abusing their powers though. You can do it with any of the other alternate magic systems, Binders are easy to get working at a fair level, and Shadowcasters are a little harder, but not impossible if you plan out your paths. Truenamers require too much work to get to work, especially for a someone who's not going to number cruch, or number crunch without abusing the system early on and dominating the low level game. Which is really sad, because I'd like to try and run a game with just True Name magic, and slightly modified Binders (for spirit summoning).
Kraydak 03-16-06, 01:49 PM	I must admit I find the argument that because a mechanic that makes the LEM virtually unusable ALSO allows for nigh-infinite *GATE* spells it is adequately well designed to be... bizarre, at best. I don't have my book in front of me, but remember that you can only affect *1* item with any given Utterance at a time, and the lexicon of the crafted tool will have no effect on GMW/MV (which would have high Truespeak DCs as they have full casterlevels). -Kraydak
Ignatius Metamorphic 03-16-06, 02:01 PM	So you're supposed to ignore your primary lexicon? The entire class is just supposed to go "Oops, this is too hard, lets now stop using anything with a scaling DC and concentrate only on these 9 abilities we get by 20th level"? I find that to be a pretty bad assumption at best. It's pretty obvious the core of the class is the Evolving Mind, considering that you get 20 of them by 20th. No, you don't ignore your primary lexicon. You just don't use it against the BBEG or the really high CR creature. At 20th level you are still going to face multiple lower CR creatures. Let's take the average Truenamer from my previous example with a total bonus of +44 on his truespeak skill. He can still automatically affect any creature of CR 15 of lower. He can affect higher CR creatures with a roll. You do face masses of lower CR creatures. You can also use your utterances on cohorts, NPCs, summoned creatures. Once you are outside of combat, low chances of success are not an issue. For example, You can use your LOEM healing abilities between combats. Who cares if you only have a 5% chance of success? Over the course of 2 minutes you can try 20 times. You only have to make the roll once. Let the cleric heal in combat. You can heal between combats and save his spells. And therein is the problem: You shouldn't have to powergame to use your core class abilities. You also can't afford to dump everything into Int, because the class is more than just Utterances, it's also decently combat-ready, and focused towards plenty of buffing, and Utt's are Cha-based for DC anyway. I think I've shown that a Truenamer can be effective without massively min/maxing. The +44 is core only and requires no special items. I assumed the caster started with a 15 in his INT. Hardly powergaming. Of course in actual play party members buff each other. I haven't time to think about the implications of this, but I'm sure there are plenty of tricks that will further help the Truenamer. For instance, here is an example as if we're 20th level, using a modest, non-powergamed example, and without custom items, or items from a dozen different sources. The problem here, is you're not thinking on a solely core+ToM level, with a modest PB or non-uberized stats/races. So let's see: 23 Ranks+6 Int mod (Base Int of 16+6 enhancement bonus to Int)+10 enhancement from Amulet of the Silver Tongue=39. Thats it. The only other possible addition is Skill Focus. And you'll fail your checks 80% of the time, before you even start to factor in the penalty for using an Utt more than once, or SR, or metautt's, or saving throws. And if you don't have an Amulet? You'll never make any LEM utt's. And it's blatently absurd for you to say "Well, you're just gonna have to ignore 20 of your abilities.". Even wizards and clerics still get great use out of low level powers at any level (Scorching Rays, Magic Missiles, Divine Favors, Blesses, and more!) Should a wiz/cleric be forced to walk around with an 80%+ failure rate for 75%ish of the spells they know? Because thats what it's like with a Truenamer, as is. How often do high level casters cast 1st level spells on high level enemies? When was the last time you saw a wizard cast charm on a 20th level BBEG? Between the spell resistance and the low save DC, chances are the spell will never get cast. High level spells get cast against high level creatures because that's what is most effective. You'll still use your Lexicon of the Evolved Mind utterances. Just in different situations. And the notion that skills are too hard to balance is also completely absurd, unless you're the sort of GM who allows anything without even questioning it's relative level of power and how it will affect your game. Any skill is going to be stupidly broken when you allow someone a +10 enhancement+10 competance+15 insight+50 guys aiding you+a marshal cohort+a race that synchs up well with the skill+X insert bonus here from half a dozen items items/wands to any skill. This should be common sense. You can't balance a class based on the idea that someone, somewhere, might, maybe go to stupid lengths to abuse it, because then we have a situation like we have now, where a normal, non-optimized guy cannot possibly use the class at high levels. Simply put, an average, non-optimized to the hilt truenamer, will be neutered of 20 out of 29 of his abilities. This. Is. Not. Right. I disagree. The class shouldn't need an item to get by. Items are meant to enhance...Not be a requirement for you to even function or use your own class abilities you spent all that time slaying hordes of beasties to get. A fighter with just a stick can still use all of his abilities, and so can a buck naked wizard with just a component pouch. So why should a truenamer be forced to cling desperately to items for fear he won't be able to use his vaunted "names=power" powers? A buck naked Truenamer can speak the Anger of the Sleeping Earth or the Conjunctive Gate utterance 4 times before he has to start rolling. That's as good as a wizard. And, he can keep trying speaking utterances long after the wizard has run out of spells.
Tweedledope 03-16-06, 02:01 PM	The arguments I have seen posted recently seem to be in favor of the "powerlessness" of the Truenamer. However, this is entirely contradictory as to the reason to even level up and gain power. The Truenamer effectively loses his ability to use lower level Utterances which are virtually all of his buffs and direct-effect attacks. You people think this is okay??!! If that is your arguement then I want you to play a 20th level Wizard with no access to any buffs or attack spells. With that, you might as well give up all of your 4th level and lower spells. It is nonsensical and needs to be fixed. There was an argument earlier where they thought that the original designers "knew" this was going to happen. I think that is a crock of crap. If they DID playtest this stuff, they would have very easily seen how it does not work for higher level adventurers. It is a terrible oversight that needs to be fixed as soon as possible. However, I feel that for the next few months, we will be without errata. In addition, we may never see an errata because the designers are complacent with their views of this class and it's loss of 60%+ of its' as-written power. This is total lack of thought on part of the designer of this system and it either needs to be fixed or replaced. It is also VERY ridiculous that the only two powers that are of note that can be effectively spoken at 20th level are Earthquake and Gate...outrageous. Two abilities to speak of...makes me sick. -=Tweedledope=-
Dnjscott 03-16-06, 03:23 PM	One thing that would've really helped (and was odd in its lack) was some of the usual skill boosters: Where's a +2/+2 skill nameless bonus type feat a la Negotiator, Stealthy, etc, or a Soulmeld?
Ignatius Metamorphic 03-16-06, 03:44 PM	It is also VERY ridiculous that the only two powers that are of note that can be effectively spoken at 20th level are Earthquake and Gate...outrageous. Two abilities to speak of...makes me sick. This is not true. A 20th level Truenamer can use LOEM abilities. They are not useless. If he wants to use them on high powered enemies he has to roll. A Truenamer with a +44 (easy to get a 20th level), has a 50% chance of effecting a CR20 creature. So he can 1. Speak Word of Nurturing, Critical to heal 75 points of damage to an ally between combats. He basically can do this automatically, since outside of combat he can keep making checks until he succeeds. 2. Speak Word of Nurturing, Critical Reversed in combat to deal 16D6 damage to a CR20 enemy over two rounds. He has a 50% chance of success and the target gets no save. 3. Speak Universal Aptitude to grant his allied a +5 on any skill check. He basically can do this automatically, since outside of combat he can keep making checks until he succeeds. With this utterance, you've just become the rogue's best friend. 4. Similarly use Speed of the Zephyr to overcome obstacles, Singular Mind to remove curses from your friends, Seek the Sky to overcome obstacles, Essense of the lifespark to remove negative levels, Hidden Lore to grant your allies a +10 bonus on knowledge checks or bardic lore checks, or Breath of recovery to remove negative effects from your allies. In fact, outside of combat you will be using your LOEM utterance all the time. The fact that you can keep rolling skill checks until you make the roll is hugely powerful. Even if you only have a 10% chance of success, take two minutes and make 20 rolls. Your DC only increases when you are successful. Let your cleric save his spell for combat. Between combats you'll be doing all the healing. You'll be helping the rogue as often as possible. You'll be boosting the Wizard's knowledge checks or the Bard lore checks. In combat, you'll either be making rolls or using more reliable abilities (like those from the Lexicon of the Crafted Tool and the Lexicon of the Perfect Map). This is not so different than the 20th level cleric who casts Healing and Mass Cure spells in combat, saving the Cure Light Wounds for between combats.
Tweedledope 03-16-06, 03:49 PM	A Truenamer with a +44 (easy to get a 20th level), has a 50% chance of effecting a CR20 creature. Does this not sound WRONG to you? That's like a Wizard running around with Full Plate +15% spell failure. That is OUTRAGEOUS! 50% chance to FAIL an utterance...the mechanics are broken and nothing you can say will convince me otherwise. The character is efficient at lower levels if optimized and very poor at higher levels. -=TD=-
Stratovarius 03-16-06, 04:01 PM	Given that I would have infinite uses per day, it sounds perfectly acceptable to me.
Scud-O 03-16-06, 04:11 PM	Does this not sound WRONG to you? That's like a Wizard running around with Full Plate +15% spell failure. That is OUTRAGEOUS! 50% chance to FAIL an utterance...the mechanics are broken and nothing you can say will convince me otherwise. The character is efficient at lower levels if optimized and very poor at higher levels. -=TD=- 50% for near-infinite uses (and yes, I know the DC goes up by 2 each time). If it was 100% assured and could be done all day, you'd be hollering about that. The truth is, this is balanced. This is supposed to compare but be ENTRIELY different from the Vancian Spell Slot system, which limits resource use through uses per day. Truename magic limits resource use through failure chance. That's the mechanic, and it is balanced. My high-level Utterences from The Lexicon of the Perfected Map are comprable to your 9th-level spells, but I'll be able to use them far more often per day than you will. Your lower level spells will always take effect (barring a failure to cast defensively, and anti-magic field, or counterspelling) but will often be blocked by SR or ineffective in other ways at higher levels; my low level Utterences can easily bypass SR (+5 DC), will always have the same effect, but might not always work. Seems balanced to me.
Ignatius Metamorphic 03-16-06, 04:22 PM	Does this not sound WRONG to you? That's like a Wizard running around with Full Plate +15% spell failure. That is OUTRAGEOUS! 50% chance to FAIL an utterance...the mechanics are broken and nothing you can say will convince me otherwise. The character is efficient at lower levels if optimized and very poor at higher levels. -=TD=- No, it doesn't sound wrong to me. First, the example I'm using isn't optimized. If anything, it's underpowered for 20th level. If I were playing a Truenamer, I would expect to have at +47 or +49 on my Truespeak checks. That would mean my chance of failure would only be 25%. Second, the 50% chance is against a creature of equal CR. against anything of a lower CR, my power becomes much more effective. If I'm facing two CR 18 or four CR 16 creatures, I'm laughing. These are also CR 20 encounters, but my power is much more effective. Third, Do you really think low level wizard spells have that much better chance of success? Let's say that a 20th level wizard casts charm person on another 20th level character. The DC of the save will be DC 19 [10 + 1 (spell level) + 5 (Ability bonus from a 20 int) + 3 (Headband of intellect)]. A 20th level cleric probable can't fail. A 20th level wizard probably make it on a 5 or better (75% chance), a fighter will make it on a 13 or better (40% chance). Lots of powers don't scale well. Most 20th level wizards will use meteor strike before the use burning hands. Fourth, so what do I care if I have a 50% (or 25%) chance of failure if I can keep trying until I succeed? So I take two rounds to remove a curse instead of one, big deal, I'm not a cleric. Because I don't lose a spell if I don't succeed, I can try as often if I want. Finally, I have a whole suite of abilities (9 at level 20) that cannot fail. I can throw out empowered Energy Vortexes (That automatically bypass SR) and quickened Deny Passages without having to roll. I can encase my allies in fortified armour, give them maximized potions of healing, and arm them with adamantine, keen weapons. You are complaining because I only have a 50% of dealing 16D6 damage. Heck, I can deliver 30D6 damage with no save and no SR. The whole point of introducing new game mechanics is to change the way the game works. If Truenamers worked and felt just like other spellcasters, there would be no reason to introduce them to the game.
Ignatius Metamorphic 03-16-06, 04:26 PM	50% for near-infinite uses (and yes, I know the DC goes up by 2 each time). If it was 100% assured and could be done all day, you'd be hollering about that. The truth is, this is balanced. This is supposed to compare but be ENTRIELY different from the Vancian Spell Slot system, which limits resource use through uses per day. Truename magic limits resource use through failure chance. That's the mechanic, and it is balanced. My high-level Utterences from The Lexicon of the Perfected Map are comprable to your 9th-level spells, but I'll be able to use them far more often per day than you will. Your lower level spells will always take effect (barring a failure to cast defensively, and anti-magic field, or counterspelling) but will often be blocked by SR or ineffective in other ways at higher levels; my low level Utterences can easily bypass SR (+5 DC), will always have the same effect, but might not always work. Seems balanced to me. Well said! That's a great synopsis of the differences. Much clearer and more articulate than what I've been saying.
Some Like It Hot 03-16-06, 04:27 PM	That's like a Wizard running around with Full Plate +15% spell failure. It's not quite like having the wizard prancing around in full plate. The target gets no save. With a bit more effort, he doesn't get SR. I don't have the book, but it sounds to me like the Truenamer is sort of rolling multiple chances for failure into one big one. I'll be able to put in more when I do get the book, but I'm sort of feeling this "make one roll to affect the target with XX utterance" thing. -SLIH
xanadu 03-16-06, 04:36 PM	What kind of nonsense is this? It's their job to provide a service to the customers of WotC. Answering questions about how the mechanic works and passing on concerns to the design team is the very essense of their job. That's why custserv exists. Or do you have a different vision of what custserv is supposed to do? Perhaps you could share it with us. Cheers Otto :) Otto, It is their job to explain how mechanics work and pass on concerns, it is *not* their job to optimize or tell us how to best build, use, or play truenamers. That is not nonsense. They have explained the mechanics quite well and have said they will forward their concerns; thus they have done their job. It is not their job to write back saying, "You know if you taken X level, use X item, or try X tactic, the truenamer would shine." Nor is it their job to propose errata or hurry up the process. All I meant to suggest is it would be better off trying to think of ways that do not involve houserules to make truenamers viable. If you think it is "nonsense" to believe that Matthew Sernett, Ari Marmell, David Noonsn, and Robert J. Schwalb (the authors of ToM) had some clue as to the implication of the DCs and that we shouldn't bombard customer service claiming WOTC dropped the ball here until ohh, maybe a week after actually playing the class :rolleyes: , then that is your perogative. But it is one I find myopic and akin to a kneejerk reaction.
NekoWorldOrder 03-16-06, 05:40 PM	Keep in mind that with Anger the Sleeping Earth and Conjunctive Gate, you'll only obtain one of those abilities, and only at level 20. Also keep in mind that since Truespeak is a skill, you won't automatically suceed on a 20 (or automatically fail on a 1). That said, the more I think about it, the more the class does seem balanced, if in a slightly bizarre way...it just seems really odd that it's easier at level 20 to summon a pit fiend or cause an earthquake than it is to give an ally flight or daze the BBEG. However, once again, the Truenamer will probably get more uses of those abilities over the span of a day...it's kinda like a warlock with better abilities who can screw up his invocations; anyone remember how crazy people went over warlocks, thinking they were overpowered/underpowered? It also seems a little unfair that a Truenamer needs take Skill Focus and acquire a Silvertongue Amulet at higher levels...does anyone think it would be an unbalanced houserule to incorporate these into the class, replacing the bonus recitation feat at 8th with Skill Focus (Truespeak) and allowing the character to have a 'book of names' at second level that he can spend money on at every other level to gain a +1 bonus every time? It has pretty much zero effect on gameplay and ensures that an inexperienced player won't miss out on Skill Focus and that a player can't be gimped by a DM that does not allow him to find/purchase an Amulet of the Silver Tongue. I will admit, there is one thing I'd like to see; a level by level chart that shows exactly how hard it is for a Truenamer to use Evolving Mind, Crafted Tool and Perfected Map at each level, with and without gear, with and without skill focus. I'm curious to see how the Truenamer acts at mid-levels.
MysteryGilgamesh 03-16-06, 05:43 PM	First, the example I'm using isn't optimized. If anything, it's underpowered for 20th level. If I were playing a Truenamer, I would expect to have at +47 or +49 on my Truespeak checks. That would mean my chance of failure would only be 25%. Second, the 50% chance is against a creature of equal CR. against anything of a lower CR, my power becomes much more effective. If I'm facing two CR 18 or four CR 16 creatures, I'm laughing. These are also CR 20 encounters, but my power is much more effective. Third, Do you really think low level wizard spells have that much better chance of success? Let's say that a 20th level wizard casts charm person on another 20th level character. The DC of the save will be DC 19 [10 + 1 (spell level) + 5 (Ability bonus from a 20 int) + 3 (Headband of intellect)]. A 20th level cleric probable can't fail. A 20th level wizard probably make it on a 5 or better (75% chance), a fighter will make it on a 13 or better (40% chance). Lots of powers don't scale well. Most 20th level wizards will use meteor strike before the use burning hands. Fourth, so what do I care if I have a 50% (or 25%) chance of failure if I can keep trying until I succeed? So I take two rounds to remove a curse instead of one, big deal, I'm not a cleric. Because I don't lose a spell if I don't succeed, I can try as often if I want. Finally, I have a whole suite of abilities (9 at level 20) that cannot fail. I can throw out empowered Energy Vortexes (That automatically bypass SR) and quickened Deny Passages without having to roll. I can encase my allies in fortified armour, give them maximized potions of healing, and arm them with adamantine, keen weapons. "Assume a reasonable 20th level truenamer. +23 (ranks) +5 (Int bonus) -- Start at 15 + 5 level bonuses +3 (Skill Focus) +3 (Headband of Intellect +6) +10 (Greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue) +44 Total People are right when they say that the Truenamer won't be able to reliably affect the BBEG (Level 20, DC 55 (15+ 2x20)) directly. But the Truenamer is not an evoker, he still has lots of options."---Thats not optimized? It is, as much as core only can be. You literally took everything you could, by the RAW core, to up your truespeak. Thats the very definition of optimized, as far as I'm concerned. Not to mention, you can't really afford to stuff all points into Int, as Cha determines DC's. You say no Utt's require saves? Patently false. All of the LEM's that inflict some deficiency on someone do. And the idea that you can't affect the BBEG with them is simply insane, akin to telling the wizard "Here's all of your direct damage, SoD's, and penalizers. Now...None of them work at all. Have fun!". I feel you keep skirting the core issue here: That LEM's are not worth using as-is. A DC of 55 base is unacceptable, especially considering you can't, realistically, put all level points into Int in the case of a "split-casting" caster. A base 55% chance of completely failing to do anything, thus wasting your entire round (and no chance of quickening a LEM) is unacceptable. You say we can't compare it to wizards and clerics, but it really is comparable. Would you inflict a 55%+ chance of failure on them, for trying to use an effect that directly targets the BBEG? The DMG itself says that any DC of 40 should be nigh-impossible, and the base is a 55, here. That alone should tell you something is vitally botched with the system. As for low-level spells having a good chance of success? Yes. Many still do, because there's a ton of'em that require no save (Scorching Ray being the fan favorite), or still penalize someone even if they do save. And then there's the myriad of buffs, with tons of great ones 3rd level or less. Not to mention plenty of them scale well, especially in the case of buffs. But truenamer's buffs don't even scale, which makes it less effective than a spell in the first place! That coupled with a base 55% chance of failure (base!), and such pitifully short durations for all of them, is blatently crazy. Especially when you factor in SR and the fact they usually get a save with LEM's. You keep pointing at the other two Lexicon's as an example of nothing being wrong, but you're missing the point: Nothing is wrong with those Lexicons. It's the LEM's that are botched. And you keep skirting the issue saying "Well, just use your LEM's out of battle, they can't fail then!". Until you start using them more than once, or you want to buff in battle (which is almost the only way to use the majority of them, considering the class is very buff-loaded, yet all have miniscule durations). And if you want to buff more than one person at a time, the DC skyrockets. Same if you want to extend, or, the mother of all DC increases, Quicken. Your own arguments keep proving my point: LEM's are broken, in the bad, pitifully weak, unuseable way. You also completely ignore the issue of just standing around, trying to reuse LEM's in the first place: Allies might have their own buffs up and running, and might want to quickly assault the next monster in the dungeon before their duration craps out on them. They're likely not going to want to stand around while your Truenamer spills out a stream of gibberish like a guy with Tourette's for 2 minutes while you keep trying to roll that 20. You keep pointing at the other two Lexicons, when they're not the problem in the first place. Not to mention even those are fairly underpowered as is, in most cases. 2d6 elemental damage a round? Pitiful.
Sigma34561 03-16-06, 06:01 PM	How about a solution insead of everyone repeating thier arguments. The Mechanic was made with min-maxing in mind, and many people dont like to min-max. The class gets less heroic as it progresses. Lets just say hypothetically, everyone might agree that something needs changing. What would that change be?
MysteryGilgamesh 03-16-06, 06:09 PM	Lets just say hypothetically, everyone might agree that something needs changing. What would that change be? Your own quote is close to what is acceptable, in my mind. My personal fix (and the one I rally for) is DC 15+CR(+2 per additional use). And thats it. Problem solved. The DC now scales at the same rate your skill does, roughly. Your Int mod and any other factors (Silver Tongue Amulet, Skill Focus) make up what will offset you trying to metautt, or the increasing DC. This also takes into account that many Utt's are weaker than most spells, and also have short durations, plus don't scale. This sets a final DC of 55 for a Quickend Utt, which I feel is a good number. It's beyond high, but not entirely impossible as long as you haven't been abusing an utt over and over. And to note: Any attempts to stupidly abuse the skill system (stacking 5 kinds of bonuses culled from 10 different sourcebooks spells and items, for example) is met with a swift kick to the face for the player attempting it. This goes for all skill users, however, so it's hardly truename specific, as someone with a +200 hide skill is just as much of a problem as the +200 truename guy.
Esponer 03-16-06, 06:22 PM	It sounds like MysteryGilgamesh's suggestion has some merit to it, but rather than say "I'll slap you if you use lots of skill bonuses", it might be better to say that certain skill bonuses cannot apply to Truespeak. How would everything stand, in terms of balance, at 15 + CR for Lexicon of the Evolving Mind, and adding a scaling factor to the other Lexicons (as it sounds like you can use Conjunctive Gate far too much…), and then disallowing most bonus types to Truespeak? Allowing the item in the book, obviously, but not most other types of bonuses. I know that at this point there doesn't seem too much point in using Truespeak as a skill at all, but it's a "quicker" fix than something drastic, like turning it into Vancian magic. For the record, I can't know myself if this works or not. Ignatius Metamorphic presents an interesting suggestion on how a truenamer could win a fight, but this still sounds a little poorly designed to me. I won't know for myself until I've read it, of course, and I have no money. I think, by the sound of it, I'm even more worried by (effective) utterances/day than I am by initial chance of success. If it starts low and only gets more unlikely to work… Skill checks don't have natural success, after all, so after a while it will be impossible.
xanadu 03-16-06, 06:32 PM	...
Seeker of Truth 03-16-06, 06:37 PM	This goes for all skill users, however, so it's hardly truename specific, as someone with a +200 hide skill is just as much of a problem as the +200 truename guy. This just isn't the case. All skills are not created equal. +200 Hide isn't all that broken ... neither is +200 Balance, or jump, or escape artiist, or use rope. As a dm I wouldn't even blink if a player wanted to shell out the gold to get a +30 competance bonus to Hide ... the cost is appropriate to the effect. A +30 bonus to UMD ot Naming on the other hand I probably wouldn't allow. IMO the reason that boosting skills sky high is so cheap and easy is that boosting most skills won't break the game in any significant fasion. and designers tended to overlook or refuse to make ugly exceptions for those skills that do have the potential to break the game.
Germytech 03-16-06, 06:46 PM	Wow. Anything with this much controversy must be good. :cool: It seems like there are several concurrent issues. I do not have the book (yet), so I can say that my opinions 1) have no basis, 2) do not matter, and 3) will likely change several times. However, these are my observations: Requirement of min-maxing What I would like to see are the % chance of failure of a non-min-maxed truenamer and a non-min-maxed wizard/sorcerer. No headband, amulet, or Skill Focus for the truenamer. No headband, ioun stones, or metamagic for the wizard. How would these compare? Skill-based Mechanic This makes balancing difficult, agreed. Far easier to min-max then attack, AC, save DC, or the like: mainly because you are dealing with a much larger "range." Hence the "need" for the truename skill boosting items. To get a maximized (ie: strong access to all class abilities) Truename Skill check, you "sacrifice" a feat (Skill Focus), and two magic item slots (headband and amulet). How does this compare to an incarnate (sacrifce all magic item slots to gain access to all class abilities) or even a sorcerer (taking metamagic feats which are, arguably, better for a sorcerer than a wizard). I do not think it truenamers are worse off. Just different. Lexicon Usefulness Someone mentioned that when the lower-level Lexicon has less use coincides with the higher-level Lexicons. Some have pointed this out as a drawback. I disagree: I think having the role of a character develop and change over the course of their twenty levels is an intriguing idea. Instead of doing the same thing over and over, just with more powers or cooler effects, the character must evolve. I like that, and think it's a concept I would enjoy playing with. Repeat Tries This is a biggie. If something can be attempted multiple times without a negative consequence, then the truenamer becomes a lot more powerful. In essence, it sounds like the truenamer can indeed "take 20" on many of these utterences, only getting the +2 DC, out of combat. I can see this as a powerful role in the party for everything not expressly combat-related. The Warlock Effect The book has been out for less than a week. "OMFG, I can use eldritch blast an infinite number of times?!!?!?!? Its teh br0kn!" The mechanic is definitely strange, definitely unheard-of, and will definitely take some getting used to. Give it a couple months, and I'm sure people will come to realize how balanced it really is...
MysteryGilgamesh 03-16-06, 06:47 PM	This just isn't the case. All skills are not created equal. Yet all skills are equally broken with obscene mods. High hide and MS? Guess who is gonna be couping the BBEG in his sleep. High UMD? Can use anything with no trouble. High climb/jump? Walk on clouds and the like (Epic). High Spot/Listen? Guess who will never be ambushed by mundane means. Etc. Stacking too many skill bonuses is broken, no matter how "equal" a skills are or aren't.
MysteryGilgamesh 03-16-06, 06:55 PM	Requirement of min-maxing What I would like to see are the % chance of failure of a non-min-maxed truenamer and a non-min-maxed wizard/sorcerer. No headband, amulet, or Skill Focus for the truenamer. No headband, ioun stones, or metamagic for the wizard. How would these compare? Pretty easily. 20th level wizard with 19 Int (14 base+5 level up, which is as non-min/maxed as you can possibly get). Spells/day: 40 base, not counting Int mod. Chance of failing to cast a spell against an equal-CR: 0. Chance of the spell working: Too many factors to know (base saves, debuffs used first, focus, etc.). SR: Too many factors, but a pretty good chance of passing, if I do say so myself (1d20+20). 20th level TNer with 19 Int (same as wiz). Chance of failing to use a LEM Utt against an equal-CR: 100% (DC is 55. You have 23 ranks+5 Int). LEM Utt's known: 20. Other Utt's: No chance of failure until you've used an Utt at least 4 times, total. Other Utt's known: 9. Chance of spell working: As wizard, but with notably lower DC's for the TNer, due to the Int focus in a Cha=DC upping class. SR: As wizard.
Germytech 03-16-06, 07:05 PM	I would say that the "chance of spell working" for a truenamer is not "As wizard." From what I can tell, in most cirumstances, utterances bypass save DCs and SR. So where a wizard has to deal with these, a truenamer does not. A wizard has a %chance of failure based on these things. A truenamer bypasses these, but has a %chance that he doesn't make the check. How do the statistics for a truenamer making a check compare with those for a wizard overcoming saves and SR, for comparable effects?
MysteryGilgamesh 03-16-06, 07:10 PM	I would say that the "chance of spell working" for a truenamer is not "As wizard." From what I can tell, in most cirumstances, utterances bypass save DCs and SR. 1: Most Utt's do allow saves. The only one I can think of offhand that doesn't, are most of the 9 non-LEM utt's he might know (but most of those aren't things that allow saves normally anyway). 2: Bypassing SR for an Utt involves increasing the DC. For a LEM, it'll be impossible to do (on top of the already impossible DC to even use the LEM). For non-LEM's, the DC increase roughly gives them a 5% failure chance IIRC, using the above example, assuming you haven't used the Utt before, and aren't metautting it. Of course, those Utt's don't usually allow SR anyway, because they target things that wouldn't normally have SR (like the landscape).
Seeker of Truth 03-16-06, 07:13 PM	Yet all skills are equally broken with obscene mods. No ... They're not. I've never seen a game where a +200 in Hide or MS or climb or jump is really any more useful than a +50 ... certainly not worth the effort to build a character entirely around maxing those skills. Spot and listen woul dhave some effect in that you would detect things 1500 feet farther away than with a +50, but unless you're playing a goofy super ranged archer type that's not a worthwhile investment either. I admit I don't play in epic games, so possibly some of the intracasies of epic skill use might be eluding me, but in regular play I see nothing broken about maximizing bonuses to most skills (UMD being the most notable core exception). I think that wanting to make a character with the ability to jump over moderatly sized building is compleetly appropriate and not broken in the least. Using those same tricks or a skill lake naming that is considerably more potent could easily lead to an overpowered character.
Lokiyn 03-16-06, 07:24 PM	Truenamer aside whats everyones feelings on the Fiendbinder prc? From what i've seen browsing through it makes a delightfully flavorful prc with excellent capabilities. Plus i've always been a sucker for the unwilling minion, "ooh look master Meatbag it appears that you've been shot, does it hurt?"
Nairalimis 03-16-06, 07:50 PM	Actually, most LEM utterances also don't allow saves. Only 11 of the 43 LEM utterances allow saving throws, and oddly enough most of the damaging utterances don't offer one. The SR bit can be bypassed, but adds +5 to the utterance DC, which may or may not be a problem depending on utterance. Setting the DCs to 15+CR, and perhaps 25+(Utterance level) for Lexicon of the Perfected Map might be a way to balance things out. Though I would toss the Amulet of the Silver Tongue out then (since you still get 7 free gates) and replace it with something that offsets the DC for meta-utterance feats only, a -5 and -10 one. Crafted Tool and Perfected Map are still eaiser once you reach level 11-15 then affecting an enemy of equal CR, but affecting enemies is now at 15-30% failure chance for an equal CR enemy. Which isn't bad for the no save utterances. The ones that do allow a save are slightly less useful though. Since all the utterances scale, you've got a choice based on what seems most useful. LPM and LCT are better at levels 15-20, but not to the degree where they become the only tool a truenamer uses. In fact, assuming a +9 bonus (Int, Skill Focus, and maxed skill) beyond level, LEM have a 30% failure chance for an equal foe. Crafted tool has a much higher failure when you first get it (level 4), but by level 10 it's as easy a LEM, and past that it's eaiser, barring magic items. The addition of Utterance level for the DC of Perfected Map is to slow down that level 20 storm of gates /Deny Passage trick. The first one still automatically passes on even a 1 given a decent Int or Int enhancer, but then the possibility of failure comes up. I'm still in favor of allowing research with knowledge skills to help reduce DCs against a set of enemies, since it seems like a fair way to balance things out and keep it skill based. Offer a DC reduction or a save DC bonus, which might put some teeth back in the save LEM utterances. Although their usually good buffing might be worth it. Except for Eldrich Attraction, poor utterance. The Fiendbinder is quite nice...I'd like to see the rest of the usual demons and devils given a cost and DC to bind, so they've got a nice selection to pick from.
Lokiyn 03-16-06, 07:53 PM	possibly the Dc is based on some relation between CR and HD. However until i can get the book its all speculation on my part
Antendren 03-16-06, 08:03 PM	The DC is computed based on CR just like it is for any other creature. The price I can't speak to, though.
NilesB 03-16-06, 08:44 PM	Just so you know...CustServ told me later that "We do NOT expect errata for this book because we feel the mechanics are sound. However, we will keep your concerns in mind." What a crock of ****. I hope they have the sence to errata the truenamer/monk PrC that specificly gets improved flurry of blows and specificly does not get improved flurry of blows. On the subject of the truenamer, the discussion seems to assume that CR will equal Hit dice. Unless you are fighting Humaniods or Outsiders in most cases this is not true. edit: Pronunciation DC is based on CR, I had missremembered and thought it was based on level/hit dice , sorry.
Ignatius Metamorphic 03-16-06, 08:51 PM	"---Thats not optimized? It is, as much as core only can be. You literally took everything you could, by the RAW core, to up your truespeak. Thats the very definition of optimized, as far as I'm concerned. I said it was a reasonable build. People earlier in the thread were talking about characters with +20 competence items and tons of buffs. I tried to present what I thought was a "typical" truenamer. We are talking about a 20th level character who starts with a 15 in his INT and puts his level based stat increases there. He takes one feat to support his primary ability. At 20th level he has two items that support what he does. That hardly seems excessive. a 20th level character is hardly a dilettante. Not to mention, you can't really afford to stuff all points into Int, as Cha determines DC's. You say no Utt's require saves? Patently false. All of the LEM's that inflict some deficiency on someone do. And the idea that you can't affect the BBEG with them is simply insane, akin to telling the wizard "Here's all of your direct damage, SoD's, and penalizers. Now...None of them work at all. Have fun!". As someone else posted only a minority or LOEM utterance require saving throws. Even direct attack utterances like Word of Nurturing reverse, Word of Bolstering reversed, or Essense of Lifespark reversed don't recquire saving throws. For a Truespeaker, INT is far more important that CHA. And, I can directly affect the CR 20 BBEG with LOEM utterances. With a +44 I can hit a DC 55 Truespeak check 50% of the time. I can hit a DC 60 Truespeak check 25% of the time. And, with the right utterance my target doesn't get a save. There are lots of other CR 20 encounters where I will be even more effective with LOEM utterences. If I am fighting two CR 18 creatures of 4 CR 16 creatures my utterences all become more effective. I feel you keep skirting the core issue here: That LEM's are not worth using as-is. A DC of 55 base is unacceptable, especially considering you can't, realistically, put all level points into Int in the case of a "split-casting" caster. A base 55% chance of completely failing to do anything, thus wasting your entire round (and no chance of quickening a LEM) is unacceptable. See my previous points, I don't agree with your assessment. I think you can put all of your points into INT. Other spellcasters face similar problems. A wizard casting a save-or-die spell on a CR 20 enemy will have to punch through SR and the target has to fail it's save. This can result in the wizard wasting his entire round. You say we can't compare it to wizards and clerics, but it really is comparable. Would you inflict a 55%+ chance of failure on them, for trying to use an effect that directly targets the BBEG? The DMG itself says that any DC of 40 should be nigh-impossible, and the base is a 55, here. That alone should tell you something is vitally botched with the system. Sure, a Pit Fiend (a CR 20 enemy) has SR 32, fort +19, Ref +19, Will +21, Immunity to Fire and poison, Resistance 10 to cold and acid, Damage reduction 15, and can cast magic circle aginst good at will. Let's say our wizard has Spell penetration and greater spell penetration. He needs to roll an 8 or better to get his spell through the Pit Fiends SR. A 35% chance of failure. If our Wizard hasn't taken those two feats he needs to roll a 12 or better (55% chance of failure). If he bypasses SR (or uses a spell that bypasses SR) the Pit fiend still has a saving throw. The Wizard will have around DC 29 for 9th level spells. The pit fiend will make the save on a roll of 10 or better (55% of wizard's spell failing). My point is that lot's of characters face high chances of not succeeding. As for low-level spells having a good chance of success? Yes. Many still do, because there's a ton of'em that require no save (Scorching Ray being the fan favorite), or still penalize someone even if they do save. And then there's the myriad of buffs, with tons of great ones 3rd level or less. Not to mention plenty of them scale well, especially in the case of buffs. But truenamer's buffs don't even scale, which makes it less effective than a spell in the first place! That coupled with a base 55% chance of failure (base!), and such pitifully short durations for all of them, is blatently crazy. Especially when you factor in SR and the fact they usually get a save with LEM's. Of course no one is going to want to get 100 points of healing from Word of Nurturing Greater. You keep pointing at the other two Lexicon's as an example of nothing being wrong, but you're missing the point: Nothing is wrong with those Lexicons. It's the LEM's that are botched. And you keep skirting the issue saying "Well, just use your LEM's out of battle, they can't fail then!". Until you start using them more than once, or you want to buff in battle (which is almost the only way to use the majority of them, considering the class is very buff-loaded, yet all have miniscule durations). And if you want to buff more than one person at a time, the DC skyrockets. Same if you want to extend, or, the mother of all DC increases, Quicken. I'm looking at how the class is written and thinking about how to play it. At higher levels I think utterances from LOCT and LOPM are better choice because of the lower DCs. I think I've shown that the utterances for LOEM are not useless, they just have higher DCs. Your own arguments keep proving my point: LEM's are broken, in the bad, pitifully weak, unuseable way. You also completely ignore the issue of just standing around, trying to reuse LEM's in the first place: Allies might have their own buffs up and running, and might want to quickly assault the next monster in the dungeon before their duration craps out on them. They're likely not going to want to stand around while your Truenamer spills out a stream of gibberish like a guy with Tourette's for 2 minutes while you keep trying to roll that 20. Well, in that situation I wouldn't use LOEMs. Here are the situations where I would use LOEM (as a 20th level character) 1. When time is not an issue. 2. When facing lower CR creatures (2 CR 18, 4 CR 16) where I can reliably make the DCs. 3. When someone really needs a specific utterence. 4. When none of my LOCT or LOPM utterences are useful. 5. When I have no more uses of my LOCT or LOPMs. You keep pointing at the other two Lexicons, when they're not the problem in the first place. Not to mention even those are fairly underpowered as is, in most cases. 2d6 elemental damage a round? Pitiful. Except that I can empower, extend, enlarge, or quicken them at will. Empowered energy vortex delivers 3D6 elemental damage. No save; No SR. It's a DC 40 check which I'll automatically make. Quickened energy vortex is a DC 45 check again I can automatically make. Not too shabby.
Sigma34561 03-16-06, 10:34 PM	wow... 3d6 damage.... sweet power for a 20th lvl character.
pyro_cat 03-16-06, 10:39 PM	I think the problem could be solved with a feat (Truename Training) and a Prestige Class (Exemplar). Take Truename Training at level 9, then enter Exemplar for level 10. A one level loss for Truenamer isn't a big deal, and this would basically guarantee success, due to the automatic "take 10" ability and the +4 bonus to the skill. Illumian (Vaulnaen) +23 (ranks) +9 (Int bonus) - Start at 18 + 5 level bonuses + 5 Inherent bonuses +3 (Skill Focus) +3 (Headband of Intellect +6) +10 (Greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue) +4 (Skill Artistry) +2 (Sigil) +1 (Enhanced Power Sigil) +1 (Pale Green Ioun Stone) +56 Total Combined with the "take 10" ability of the Exemplar, we get an auto-roll of 66. Sounds good to me. There might also be feats floating around that add to intelligence checks, which I believe would include this skill. This lets you ALWAYS hit something with a CR of 22, regardless of SR. It requires the investment of 2 feats and, assuming your DM lets you "upgrade" your Amulet of the Silver Tongue and Headband of Intellect, aproximately 214 000 gold. I think that's a reasonable amount to invest in your primary class ability. If you want to Extend or Enlarge your Utterance, you can; against a CR 20 foe. You lose out on your last level of Truenamer, however.
Subedei 03-16-06, 10:49 PM	How difficult would it be to grant truenaming as a class skill to NPCs? If you could grab 10 followers with it you'd pretty much always succeed with your assisted +20 bonus.
LogicNinja 03-16-06, 11:59 PM	Wait. Wait, wait. +1 synergy bonus for every two languages spoken... There's an Epic feat called Polyglot. It's SRD. How many languages are there in the multiverse, again? That's a hell of a synergy bonus, there... Edit: Wait, that was just someone's suggested house-rule. Whoops, never mind. Well, guess now we know why Speak Language doesn't affect Truenaming. ;)
jedrious 03-17-06, 12:16 AM	Wait. Wait, wait. +1 synergy bonus for every two languages spoken... There's an Epic feat called Polyglot. It's SRD. How many languages are there in the multiverse, again? That's a hell of a synergy bonus, there... that was a houserule he was proposing, I was going to recommend Master Linguist until I actually got the book and realized he had presentedhis houserules in a manner that looked like they were the actual rules, very annoying when all of this complaining got on here before my preordered copy arrived
Always-Late 03-17-06, 01:55 AM	Why don't we just make a class called: "The Simple Truenamer." At twentieth level, the rules would say: "You are a sorceror of a level equivalent to your truename check minus thirty-five, except you have an unlimited number of spells per day. If your sorceror level does not exceed twenty, make up the rest with commoner levels. For example, if you have a truename check of +55, you are a 20th level sorceror with limitless spells. If you have a truename check of +45, you are a 10th level sorceror / 10th level commoner with an infinite number of spells. If you have a truename check of +35, you are a commoner 20." If you optimize it, is it fine? Yes. Pretty dang good, in fact. If you are like most of the people in my group, who think +30 to a skill by level 15 is pretty good, you pretty much just lose at truenaming.
Ignatius Metamorphic 03-17-06, 10:24 AM	wow... 3d6 damage.... sweet power for a 20th lvl character. Actually, it's 3D6 per round for 10 rounds: 30D6 no save, no SR. Combined with some of the other LOPM utterances (Which can be quickened) it becomes an effective tactic.
Gerdreg 03-17-06, 10:35 AM	I think the problem could be solved with a feat (Truename Training) and a Prestige Class (Exemplar). Take Truename Training at level 9, then enter Exemplar for level 10. A one level loss for Truenamer isn't a big deal, and this would basically guarantee success, due to the automatic "take 10" ability and the +4 bonus to the skill. Illumian (Vaulnaen) +23 (ranks) +9 (Int bonus) - Start at 18 + 5 level bonuses + 5 Inherent bonuses +3 (Skill Focus) +3 (Headband of Intellect +6) +10 (Greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue) +4 (Skill Artistry) +2 (Sigil) +1 (Enhanced Power Sigil) +1 (Pale Green Ioun Stone) +56 Total Combined with the "take 10" ability of the Exemplar, we get an auto-roll of 66. Sounds good to me. There might also be feats floating around that add to intelligence checks, which I believe would include this skill. This lets you ALWAYS hit something with a CR of 22, regardless of SR. It requires the investment of 2 feats and, assuming your DM lets you "upgrade" your Amulet of the Silver Tongue and Headband of Intellect, aproximately 214 000 gold. I think that's a reasonable amount to invest in your primary class ability. If you want to Extend or Enlarge your Utterance, you can; against a CR 20 foe. You lose out on your last level of Truenamer, however. The +4 bonus for Skill Artistry isn't bad, but I'm not sure Skill Mastery allows you to take 10 on skills that specifically say you cannot take a 10 on rolls.
pyro_cat 03-17-06, 10:40 AM	The +4 bonus for Skill Artistry isn't bad, but I'm not sure Skill Mastery allows you to take 10 on skills that specifically say you cannot take a 10 on rolls. That's true, it only says that the ability mitigates distractions and adverse conditions. I guess this is a little more up in the air than I thought.
Feeb 03-17-06, 11:17 AM	The only mechanic I'd like to see introduced (for the Truenamer) is something that gives you a +2, maybe +4 check on your Truename spell when using utterances targetting friendly npc/pc's. Be it a feat or addendum to the Truename Reasearch bit, specific to an individual or not, it is something I would like to see. IMO, it would help preserve the Namers role as a buffer. FWIW, I'm reading the class as a low-level buffer/high level controller type, with auxillary blaster abilities. I don't see the Truenamer as a blater, so I don't think his blaster abilties (or some of the other LOEM abilties) really need scaling improvements with regards to DC difficulty against high CR/HD level targets.
sCRuLooSe 03-17-06, 12:05 PM	Lets see if I have this correct.... Min Stats (No feat optimization and no equipment) 20th Wizard Int 14+5(lvl mod)=19 Int No special feats, No special equipment Casts a 1st level spell at a CR 20 creature Assume the Wizard chooses the creatures weak save and the creature has no bonus to the save. Creatures save is approximately +6 (more or less if HD<>CR) Failure chance=60% If the wizard chooses a spell that bypasses SR or that the creature has no SR. Failure chance=0% If the wizard chooses a spell that bypasses SR but has a touch attack Failure chance=5% If the wizard chooses a spell that does not bypass SR against a creature with average SR (assume CR+11, more or less if HD<>CR) Failure Chance 50% Best case scenario failure=60%, Worse case failure=80% 20th Truenamer Int 14+5(lvl mod)=19 Int No special feats, No special equipment Uses a base lexington ability at a CR 20 creature Base skill 23+4Int=+27 versus DC 55 (targeting a CR 20 creature) Failure rate 100% Best case scenario failure=100%, Worse case failure=100% Avg Stats (one feat and some equipment) 20th Wizard Int 16+5(lvl mod)+6(Enh)=27 Int Spell Penetration feat, +6 Headband, A number of wands equal in cost to a silvertongue amulet. Casts a 1st level spell at a CR 20 creature Assume the Wizard chooses the creatures weak save and the creature has no bonus to the save. Creatures save is approximately +6 (more or less if HD<>CR) Failure chance=40% If the wizard chooses a spell that bypasses SR or that the creature has no SR. Failure chance=0% If the wizard chooses a spell that bypasses SR but has a touch attack Failure chance=5% If the wizard chooses a spell that does not bypass SR against a creature with average SR (assume CR+11, more or less if HD<>CR) Failure Chance 40% Best case scenario failure=40%, Worse case failure=64% 20th Truenamer Int 16+5(lvl mod)+6(Enh)=27 Int Skill Focus(Truename), +6 Headband, Silvertongue Amulet Uses a base lexington ability at a CR 20 creature Base skill 23+8Int+3Feat+10Amulet=+44 versus DC 55 (targeting a CR 20 creature) Failure rate 50% If the namer chooses to bypass SR against a creature with average SR (assume CR+11, more or less if HD<>CR) Base skill 23+8Int+3Feat+10Amulet=+44 versus DC 60 (targeting a CR 20 creature+5 for bypass SR) Failure rate 75% Best case scenario failure=50%, Worse case failure=75% Max Stats (multiple feats, support, and item use) 20th Wizard Int 18+5(lvl mod)+6(Enh)+5(Book)=34 Int Spell Penetration feat, Greater Spell Penetration, Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, +6 Headband, +5 Book, A number of staffs equal in cost to a the namers skill enhancing abilities Casts a 1st level spell at a CR 20 creature Assume the Wizard chooses the creatures weak save and the creature has no bonus to the save. Creatures save is approximately +6 (more or less if HD<>CR) Failure chance=10% If the wizard chooses a spell that bypasses SR or that the creature has no SR. Failure chance=0% If the wizard chooses a spell that bypasses SR but has a touch attack Failure chance=5% If the wizard chooses a spell that does not bypass SR against a creature with average SR (assume CR+11, more or less if HD<>CR) Failure Chance 30% Best case scenario failure=10%, Worse case failure=37% 20th Truenamer Int 18+5(lvl mod)+6(Enh)+5(Book)=34 Int Skill Focus(Truename), Leadership, +6 Headband, +5 Book, Silvertongue Amulet, +30 competence bonus item, +6 Charisma item (for cohort) Uses a base lexington ability at a CR 20 creature Base skill 23+12Int+3Feat+10Amulet+30Competence+7Ma rshall cohorts aura=+85 versus DC 55 (targeting a CR 20 creature) Failure rate 0% If the namer chooses to bypass SR against a creature with average SR (assume CR+11, more or less if HD<>CR) Base skill 23+12Int+3Feat+10Amulet+30Competence+7Ma rshall cohorts aura=+85 versus DC 60 (targeting a CR 20 creature+5 for bypass SR) Failure rate 0% Best case scenario failure=0%, Worse case failure=0% Analysis Failure Rate No optimization Wizards are superior Avg Optimization Wizards are superior Max Optimization Namers are superior Endurance (Reusability of powers) No optimization Wizards are superior (Namers cannot use their abilities) Avg Optimization Namers are superior Max Optimization Namers are superior Just comparing the characters 1st level abilities after scaling to a 20th level character, it looks like the Namer will be slightly weaker than the wizard in terms of flexibility and adaptability. The Namer is incapacitated without some equipment (more-so than any other class). However, even in this condition he is only slightly worse off then a naked, disarmed fighter or a wizard that has lost his spellbook (the fighter and wizard are either crippled or a few encounters from being disabled, but not completyely incapacitated). However, a Namer that has maxed himself out is considerably more likely to succeed with his abilities than a Wizard. Between the two extremes, the Wizard is better than the namer for avoiding spell failure and worse for reusability of spells. Maybe I am missing something, but while a player might want to avoid a Namer if he expects to be stripped of his magical items regularly (or in a low-magic campaign) and he might be more inclined to take the Namer in a game where the DM has no problem with rediculous skill optimization, it looks like the low level abilities scale well in an average campaign. For the extreme campaigns, of course the balances change, they do between any two classes. Overall the Namer does seem to be weaker than a wizard, but not so much weaker that they are brokenly weak compared to the non-spellcasting classes. A player that wants a more powerful character should stick with Wizards. A player that wants to play a flavorful class without as much power (but still enough power to match a fighter or rogue) may want to play a Namer. Did I miss anything or misunderstand it? Thanks
Ignatius Metamorphic 03-17-06, 12:32 PM	Lets see if I have this correct.... <SNIP a lot of great analysis> Overall the Namer does seem to be weaker than a wizard, but not so much weaker that they are brokenly weak compared to the non-spellcasting classes. A player that wants a more powerful character should stick with Wizards. A player that wants to play a flavorful class without as much power (but still enough power to match a fighter or rogue) may want to play a Namer. Did I miss anything or misunderstand it? Thanks I really like your analysis. I think it's a really shows how Utterances from the Lexicon of the Evolving Mind compare the wizard spells. Thanks for doing the work! The one thing you forgot is that the Namer has two sets of abilities (The Lexicon of the Crafted Tool and The Lexicon of the Perfect Map) that work off a different set of DCs. (The Lexicon of the Crafted Tool and The Lexicon of the Perfect Map affect items and areas respectively, so the DCs are either (15+ 2 x the item's caster level) for magic items or a flat DC25 for non-magical items. This means that the Truenamer has access to a number of abilities that have more easily accessible DCs. These abilities help balance the Truenamer against the Wizard. Also, since the DCs are lower, the Truenamer can use these abilities quite often. Take your average Truenamer, he can make a DC 25 check 10 times before having to roll, 19 times before it becomes impossible.
MysteryGilgamesh 03-17-06, 12:46 PM	Did I miss anything or misunderstand it? Thanks You missed a few things: Most powers for a TNer from the LEM allow saves when used against an enemy, which are based off of Cha. You should probably calc the failure rate of such things, assuming you went all-out for Int. Not to mention most LEM's are buff-related. The only exceptions from the LEM I recall are the ones that give a minor penalty to attack/damage, and the d6 damage dealers. Of course, a wizard far outstrips them in that respect, even with a mere scorching ray, and this is taking into account the higher tiers of LEM damage dealing. You should also take into account the increasing chance of failure when using any Utt more than once. And maybe the various metautt feats, too.
pyro_cat 03-17-06, 12:52 PM	I'm working on cranking up that skill check over here, if anyone has some suggestions. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=605786
Ignatius Metamorphic 03-17-06, 01:12 PM	You missed a few things: Most powers for a TNer from the LEM allow saves when used against an enemy, which are based off of Cha. You should probably calc the failure rate of such things, assuming you went all-out for Int. Not to mention most LEM's are buff-related. The only exceptions from the LEM I recall are the ones that give a minor penalty to attack/damage, and the d6 damage dealers. Of course, a wizard far outstrips them in that respect, even with a mere scorching ray, and this is taking into account the higher tiers of LEM damage dealing. You should also take into account the increasing chance of failure when using any Utt more than once. And maybe the various metautt feats, too. Most LOEM utterences don't require a save. Don't take my word for it. Actually, most LEM utterances also don't allow saves. Only 11 of the 43 LEM utterances allow saving throws, and oddly enough most of the damaging utterances don't offer one. I am increasing convinced that this class will prove to be playable from 1st to 20th levels. I would love to hear from people who have actually played the class. (Of course we'll have to wait a while for that to happen.) So far most of the controversy has revolved around the efficacy of LOEMs at high levels. The Truenamer other advantages. D6 hit die, Cleric BAB, the ability to wear light armour, 4 skill points per level. I think it would be fun to play a Truenamer.
Germytech 03-17-06, 02:08 PM	Again, having not actually yet seen the book (and having utterlyt useless opinions), I think Ignatius is right on the money. It is in all ways a viable class, but it requires a slightly different approach. Magic has always had a "chance of failure" with spell resistance and saving throws, which truename magic simply transfers to a skill check, instead. When you think of it, an un-optimized truenamer (though not naked: one feat and two magic items devoted to heightening class abilities) can effect a CR20 opponent with SR and a saving throw with roughly the same chance as a wizard. Except the truenamer is doing it with his lower level LOEM. A wizard probably has a harder time if he uses his lower level spells than the truenamer. Just an observation. :)
Encard 03-17-06, 04:47 PM	You know, I don't think that comparing the Truenamer to a wizard is the best way to measure if it's balanced. To contrast, let's just pull up the Fighter With A Stick that gets brought up so much, compared to a bare-naked Truenamer. Let's pit both against the most generic CR20 enemy I can think of, the DMG's sample Fighter 20. Fighter has Str 20 (assume starting 16 + 4 from level up bonuses), and the Truenamer has Int 20. The Stick-Fighter will have a +5 to attack from Str, and a -4 from using an improvised weapon (the stick). That's an attack routine of +21/+16/+11/+6 against AC 34, assuming the DMG's Fighter just stands there. In other words, the Stick-Fighter would have to roll a 13/18/20/20 to hit and inflict, oh, maybe 1d6+4 or so damage. The Truenamer has a +28 to his Truespeak check. Perfected Map utterances are DC 25. He can automatically make the check for any of his utterances up to three times in a row, and have a better than 50-50 chance of making it a number of times more - that includes ones like Breath of the Void, Conjunctive Gate, Energy Vortex, Deny Passage, Angered Earth and so on, unless I misunderstand/forget something. Now, let's compare - a less than 50% chance to deal 1d6+4 damage, or blasting the competition with some fairly heavy-duty magic. Equipmentless, the Truenamer still trumps the Fighter. Now of course, Fighter is weak... but then again, Wizard is strong, so that puts the Truenamer somewhere in between. Of course, a spellbook-less Wizard is also going to be much worse off then a Truenamer. Now, to make the Fighter viable, you need to give him a good amount of gear. For a Truenamer, you can make the character viable with what's probably a much smaller expenditure of gold. All this shows is that like many caster and pseudo-caster classes, the Truenamer is less dependant on equipment than a melee class - none of the classes are completely equipment-free; Druid and Monk come close and can function well without gear, but they're really exceptions, and Druid is the single most powerful core class anyway. Now, I don't have the book yet, so I may be wrong on some points, Feel free to correct me. However, I hope this helps put things into perspective a bit.
MysteryGilgamesh 03-17-06, 06:30 PM	Most LOEM utterences don't require a save. Don't take my word for it. ...I've repeated this a few times, now. The reason most LEM's don't allow a save...Is because they're buffs. Even the reverse form is often a buff effect.
Gerdreg 03-18-06, 10:54 AM	They have done a good job in this thread http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=605786 searching for ways to optimize the skill roll without house rules. For Core and ToM alone they are up to... At level 20 Truenamer +23 skill ranks +12 Int bonus (18 base Int + 5 level bonus + 5 Inherent bonus from tome + 6 Enhancement bonus from item) +3 unamed bonus (Skill Focus feat) +10 Enhancement bonus (Greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue) +1 Competence bonus (Pale Green Ioun Stone) +1 Luck bonus (Stone of Good Luck) +5 unamed bonus (Universal Apptitude utterance, lasts 5 rounds, 10 if Extended) +55 to the Skill Roll This will allow a Truenamer to always successfully speak one DC 55 utterance (unless you play that 1s always fail) and one Quickened DC 25 LotCT or LotPM utterance (DC45 total) a round. They are getting even higher bonuses if you allow non core feats and items. I am now willing to admit, with the liberal use of items, that the system may not be as broken as I thought.
pyro_cat 03-18-06, 11:01 AM	They have done a good job in this thread http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=605786 searching for ways to optimize the skill roll without house rules. For Core and ToM alone they are up to... At level 20 Truenamer +23 skill ranks +12 Int bonus (18 base Int + 5 level bonus + 5 Inherent bonus from tome + 6 Enhancement bonus from item) +3 unamed bonus (Skill Focus feat) +10 Enhancement bonus (Greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue) +1 Competence bonus (Pale Green Ioun Stone) +1 Luck bonus (Stone of Good Luck) +5 unamed bonus (Universal Apptitude utterance, lasts 5 rounds, 10 if Extended) +55 to the Skill Roll This will allow a Truenamer to always successfully speak one DC 55 utterance (unless you play that 1s always fail) and one Quickened DC 25 LotCT ot LotPM utterance (DC45 total) a round. I am now willing to admit, with the liberal use of items, that the system may not be as broken as I thought. Don't forget the +1 for the actual roll itself (the lowest you can get, of course). This gets it up to 56. This still isn't good enough, however. Assuming you have to overcome spell resistance, you need a to roll a 60 to guarantee a success against a CR 20 challenge. I would like guarantees, which means getting a +59 pre-roll. A work in progress, to be sure.
Dark Kyosuke 03-18-06, 11:47 AM	Don't forget the +1 for the actual roll itself (the lowest you can get, of course). This gets it up to 56. This still isn't good enough, however. Assuming you have to overcome spell resistance, you need a to roll a 60 to guarantee a success against a CR 20 challenge. I would like guarantees, which means getting a +59 pre-roll. A work in progress, to be sure. For what it's worth... If you're rolling against DC 60, and you have a check of 55, then you roll a success on 5-20 on d20, which is about 75%. The only place to go from there, really, is 100%.
pyro_cat 03-18-06, 11:53 AM	The only place to go from there, really, is 100%. :D You got it! I'm looking for 100% success here. It's entirely possible to make a Wizard who uses amazing spells with 100% success, so I want the same for a Truenamer.
Timlagor 03-18-06, 03:01 PM	I haven't read the whoel thread so this may have already been suggested but I thought I'd throw out. How about setting the skill check DC by opposing it to a Fort+Will save (1d20+both modifiers)
igotsmeakabob!! 03-18-06, 04:12 PM	Having just finished reading this entire thread, thanks to Ignatius and others, the fears I came in here with about Truename Magic sucking at high levels has been dispelled and I am now confident that Truename Magic is a well-thought-out very fluffy (I love it so much.. can't wait to try it in Eberron) awesometastic system. Its great, and I love it. Works fine. Awesome stuff. I'm happy.
NineInchNall 03-18-06, 04:51 PM	20th Truenamer Int 18+5(lvl mod)+6(Enh)+5(Book)=34 Int Skill Focus(Truename), Leadership, +6 Headband, +5 Book, Silvertongue Amulet, +30 competence bonus item, +6 Charisma item (for cohort) Uses a base lexington ability at a CR 20 creature Base skill 23+12Int+3Feat+10Amulet+30Competence+7Ma rshall cohorts aura=+85 versus DC 55 (targeting a CR 20 creature) Failure rate 0% If the namer chooses to bypass SR against a creature with average SR (assume CR+11, more or less if HD<>CR) Base skill 23+12Int+3Feat+10Amulet+30Competence+7Ma rshall cohorts aura=+85 versus DC 60 (targeting a CR 20 creature+5 for bypass SR) Failure rate 0% ... Did I miss anything or misunderstand it? Thanks Actually, yes. The above character uses non-core material other than that from ToM, which has been acknowledged to raise the check to silly levels. The point that MystGilg and the others were making, however, was that a core & ToM Truenamer 20 is subpar, especially if unoptimized. Primarily this group of players is concerned by the fact that the player has to optimize his character not for enhancement of his character's abilities, but instead for the mere opportunity to use them on a regular basis. As I don't have the book myself, I'm not going to pass any judgments, but it does seem that many are having a hard time concentrating on this specific complaint. *shrug*
Gerdreg 03-19-06, 09:00 AM	Don't forget the +1 for the actual roll itself (the lowest you can get, of course). This gets it up to 56. This still isn't good enough, however. Assuming you have to overcome spell resistance, you need a to roll a 60 to guarantee a success against a CR 20 challenge. I would like guarantees, which means getting a +59 pre-roll. A work in progress, to be sure. I bounced back to your thread and found greater heroism. Though there is no greater heroism item, there are core rules in the DMG that allow for the creation of one. Here is what we are up to now using Core and ToM only... At level 20 Truenamer +23 skill ranks +12 Int bonus (18 base Int + 5 level bonus + 5 Inherent bonus from tome + 6 Enhancement bonus from item) +3 unamed bonus (Skill Focus feat) +10 Enhancement bonus (Greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue) +1 Competence bonus (Pale Green Ioun Stone) +1 Luck bonus (Stone of Good Luck) +5 unamed bonus (Universal Apptitude utterance, lasts 5 rounds, 10 if Extended) +4 Morale bonus (Greater Heroism - custom item if GM allows) +59 to the Skill Roll This gives the minimum roll of 60 we were looking for to overcome SR. Same as before, DCs are 2 lower when casting on yourself (so you get 4 auto successful uses of Universal Aptitude a day, or 2 Extended uses) and with non-core stuff (such as an Illumian with Enhanced Power Sigils) much higher bonuses are possible. Of the total bonus of +59, +22 come from items leaving an unequipped character with a +37 to the roll.
Dark Kyosuke 03-19-06, 09:41 AM	:D You got it! I'm looking for 100% success here. It's entirely possible to make a Wizard who uses amazing spells with 100% success, so I want the same for a Truenamer. This is going to sound standoffish and confrontational. It isn't meant to be this way. But let me ask: Have you ever, ever, played a wizard whose saves consistently triggered on anything but a d20? Or any charachter who consistently had a 100% chance of doing any act they took? (Not research rolls, I mean something like save DCs or Diplomacy checks.) And not have the DM weep into his hands or set fire to your charachter sheet? For that matter, has anyone in the studio audience? I really am curious.
pyro_cat 03-19-06, 09:58 AM	This is going to sound standoffish and confrontational. It isn't meant to be this way. But let me ask: Have you ever, ever, played a wizard whose saves consistently triggered on anything but a d20? Or any charachter who consistently had a 100% chance of doing any act they took? (Not research rolls, I mean something like save DCs or Diplomacy checks.) And not have the DM weep into his hands or set fire to your charachter sheet? For that matter, has anyone in the studio audience? I really am curious. Well, no, I haven't. To be honest, I've never had the opportunity to play more than a few sessions (2 or 3) with the same character, and never over level 4. Everything I know about D&D is conjecture on my behalf. There's no one to play with where I live. But we're not talking about saves, or most skill rolls, or attack rolls, or anything else. A Cleric can buff himself his party to hell and back with no chance of failure. A Wizard with Arcane Mastery, Spell Penetration, and Greater Spell Penetration can comfortably use the MANY spells avaliable that don't allow a save, and easily overcome any SR on a reasonable challenge. He doesn't HAVE to roll for a chance, he's got it all nailed down. My complaint is that a Truespeaker can't do these things. Admittedly, LotPM Utterances will still fulful a useful role, but if he cannot even buff himself or his allies with success, there is a problem. In my mind. But, that is just my (practically uneducated) opinion. (and don't worry, no standoffishness was evident, I perfectly undestand where you're coming from :thumbsup: )
Dark Kyosuke 03-19-06, 10:54 AM	I've been in the same boat, Pyro. There's nobody here to play with either. Been thinking of joining/running something online, but have met with little luck. Anyway... Oh right. The idiotic "I must roll to buff myself and my allies" thing again. I'd briefly forgotten about that. Whereas the Cleric or Wizard can buff people easialy at level 20, even (espically?) with lower-level spells, the Truenamer... Must overcome his own save DC? Great Cthulhu, what were they thinking? Ah, who knows? A month from now with some actual play time or more research, this guy could be a top-tier performer. And he's already shaping up due to the efforts of people here trying to optimize Truenaming. I know already that the Binder is potentially top-tier. Binder 20 is absurdly viable, from what little I've seen so far. The Binder PrCs are nasty too. If I had a game (and ToM), I would want to play a Binder, solely because I get NATURAL WEAPONS. I would be in heaven. Espically if I could then take Multiattack, possibly cross into Soul Eater... :evillaugh I know nothing about the Shadowcaster (or whatever she's called), but if it's anything like the other two systems, it may be worth looking into.
pyro_cat 03-19-06, 11:17 AM	I know already that the Binder is potentially top-tier. Binder 20 is absurdly viable, from what little I've seen so far. The Binder PrCs are nasty too. If I had a game (and ToM), I would want to play a Binder, solely because I get NATURAL WEAPONS. I would be in heaven. Espically if I could then take Multiattack, possibly cross into Soul Eater... :evillaugh I know nothing about the Shadowcaster (or whatever she's called), but if it's anything like the other two systems, it may be worth looking into. Personally, I can't stand the Shadowcaster, even though I love the other two. The whole class... the pictures, the flavour text, the abilities, the items.. they all scream "ANGRY EMO TEENAGER!". Spiked collars, dark clothing, excessive buckles, a preoccupation with the dark and gloomy, etc. I get enough of that at school. Also, it doesn't seem sufficiently removed from the standard D&D magic system. Sure, binding is close to Incarnum, but it's still original enough for my tastes, and Truespeech is alltogether different.
Glanoric 03-19-06, 12:31 PM	This is going to sound standoffish and confrontational. It isn't meant to be this way. But let me ask: Have you ever, ever, played a wizard whose saves consistently triggered on anything but a d20? Or any charachter who consistently had a 100% chance of doing any act they took? (Not research rolls, I mean something like save DCs or Diplomacy checks.) And not have the DM weep into his hands or set fire to your charachter sheet? For that matter, has anyone in the studio audience? I really am curious. I've got a ranger 1/fighter 4/deepwarden 2/dwarven defender 1 in my friday game who can hit an AC of 39 (43 against giants) and who has a base fort save of 18 (+2 against poison, spells or spell likes, and +1 if they're trap related. I openly scoff at magical poison traps) and dr 4/- and my character still lives, despite my constant egging on of the dm to kill me.
Taliesin52 03-19-06, 12:34 PM	Personally, I can't stand the Shadowcaster, even though I love the other two. The whole class... the pictures, the flavour text, the abilities, the items.. they all scream "ANGRY EMO TEENAGER!". Spiked collars, dark clothing, excessive buckles, a preoccupation with the dark and gloomy, etc. I get enough of that at school. Also, it doesn't seem sufficiently removed from the standard D&D magic system. Sure, binding is close to Incarnum, but it's still original enough for my tastes, and Truespeech is alltogether different. Really? I'm the reverse. The Truename mechanic is goofy (works well for the PRC's though) and the Binder is meh. However, I love the shadowcaster and most of the PrC's in that section. However, flavorwise, I'd like to see the mystery mechanic expanded a little and used to replace the sorceror. The Spl-Sp-Su scaling of abilities is interesting and would fit such a character better I think. I do see what you mean about it not being much different than the standard system.
Taliesin52 03-19-06, 12:40 PM	Back to the Truenamer for a moment. There's a PrC for monks called Disciple of the word. They get lots of nifty abilities and their "monk abilities" progression continues (including flurry, something I thought normally didn't progress in PrC's). Off hand, does anyone know if the PrC abilities follow the Law of Resistance? It seems like most abilities say if they do or do not follow it. Plus, it requires you to burn a stun use every time you activate one of the class abilities, so the LoR seems unnecessary.
Gerdreg 03-19-06, 04:30 PM	Back to the Truenamer for a moment. There's a PrC for monks called Disciple of the word. They get lots of nifty abilities and their "monk abilities" progression continues (including flurry, something I thought normally didn't progress in PrC's). Off hand, does anyone know if the PrC abilities follow the Law of Resistance? It seems like most abilities say if they do or do not follow it. Plus, it requires you to burn a stun use every time you activate one of the class abilities, so the LoR seems unnecessary. I believe (but could be wrong) that any truespeak roll you make suffers from resistance on repeated successes. [edit] Actually I have to take back what I just said. The Law of Resistance specifically says utterances, and the Truespeak abilities of the PrCs are all (I think) already limited in how many times per day they can be used (the Disciple is limited by his Stunning Fist uses per day, for example).
catharz 03-19-06, 04:54 PM	Same as before, DCs are 2 lower when casting on yourself (so you get 4 auto successful uses of Universal Aptitude a day, or 2 Extended uses) and with non-core stuff (such as an Illumian with Enhanced Power Sigils) much higher bonuses are possible. But remember that Greater Heroism increases your HD, making you harder to buff.
Gerdreg 03-20-06, 07:05 AM	But remember that Greater Heroism increases your HD, making you harder to buff. My Player's Handbook may be outdated because it does not list this. I'll consult the SRD. [edit] From the SRD. I do not believe Greater Heroism increases in HD. Heroism Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 3 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: 10 min./level Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) This spell imbues a single creature with great bravery and morale in battle. The target gains a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saves, and skill checks. Heroism, Greater Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] Level: Brd 5, Sor/Wiz 6 Duration: 1 min./level This spell functions like heroism, except the creature gains a +4 morale bonus on attack rolls, saves, and skill checks, immunity to fear effects, and temporary hit points equal to your caster level (maximum 20).
Subedei 03-20-06, 08:21 AM	Really? I'm the reverse. The Truename mechanic is goofy (works well for the PRC's though) and the Binder is meh. However, I love the shadowcaster and most of the PrC's in that section. However, flavorwise, I'd like to see the mystery mechanic expanded a little and used to replace the sorceror. The Spl-Sp-Su scaling of abilities is interesting and would fit such a character better I think. I do see what you mean about it not being much different than the standard system. And I'm completely different in that regard as well. Shadowcaster and Namer are good ideas but they just don't grab me. Now I love Binder, it's actually the kind of thing I like flavor-wise and rules-wise and with a little creative character building can become incredibly powerful and versatile.
Feeb 03-20-06, 10:14 AM	At level 20 Truenamer +23 skill ranks +12 Int bonus (18 base Int + 5 level bonus + 5 Inherent bonus from tome + 6 Enhancement bonus from item) +3 unamed bonus (Skill Focus feat) +10 Enhancement bonus (Greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue) +1 Competence bonus (Pale Green Ioun Stone) +1 Luck bonus (Stone of Good Luck) +5 unamed bonus (Universal Apptitude utterance, lasts 5 rounds, 10 if Extended) +4 Morale bonus (Greater Heroism - custom item if GM allows) +59 to the Skill Roll One could ditch the Ioun stone, pick up the leadership feat and grab a Bard as a cohort. That might save a bit of GP for other gear and net you a +3 competence bonus (via the Bard ability "inspire confidence.")
pyro_cat 03-20-06, 10:20 AM	One could ditch the Ioun stone, pick up the leadership feat and grab a Bard as a cohort. That might save a bit of GP for other gear and net you a +3 competence bonus (via the Bard ability "inspire confidence.") Welllllll... If we were going to pick up a cohort, I'd probably take a high-Cha race Marshal/Exemplar/Tattooed Monk and crank the skill check up by 50 or so. But I don't like the idea of relying on a cohort. Maybe someone interested could do the actual number-crunching to figure out what the best cohort would be.
Glimm 03-20-06, 11:16 AM	One item type that could prove useful is the shards from the XPH. These are one use items that give a competence bonus on a specific skill check. A bunch of shards, or similar items themed towards Truespeak specifically, could be great to have on hand for when a high check result is needed against a specific foe. Shards: These universal items are tiny fragments of cast-off crystal imprinted with minuscule bits of psionic power. Using a shard requires grasping it and projecting a command thought as a standard action (most shards telepathically whisper their command word into the minds of living creatures who handle them). A shard grants a temporary competence bonus on one specific skill, ranging from +1 to +10. The granted bonus lasts until the skill is used or 10 rounds pass, whichever comes first. Once its effect is activated, a shard disintegrates immediately, whether or not the bonus granted by the shard is eventually used. Moderate psychometabolism; ML 7th; Craft Universal Item, creator must have ranks in the specified skill at least equal to the imprinted bonus; Price 10 gp (+1), 40 gp (+2), 90 gp (+3), 160 gp (+4), 250 gp (+5), 360 gp (+6), 490 gp (+7), 640 gp (+8), 810 gp (+9), or 1,000 gp (+10).
TarlSS 03-20-06, 08:03 PM	SUMMARY: The problem with lowering Truespeak DC is that it allows the Truespeaker to spit out a million no save utterances a day. We regulate this by only allowing a few utterances per day that have a good chance of succeeding. FIX: For Lexicon of the Perfected Mind, Lower the DC to 15+CR+2*Utterance Level. Then, up the Law of Resistance to 2+Utterance Level. This limits the number of utterances per day, while giving the Truespeaker a good few shots before running out of steam. MAIN: The main problem with lowering the Truespeak DC is that it allows the Truespeaker to speak a ridiculous number of times perday. This isn't a problem if you simply up the law of Resistance. A +3 or +4 or something like that solves that problem. Maybe something interesting like 2+level of utterance even. That gives a Truespeaker 3/4 shots before he runs out, which is a good convention. All the Truespeak spells are either buffs (Which generally should always work...) or negs, and the enemy gets saves. Even if you could get Truespeak off 100% of the time with the optimized builds- They don't incorporate charisma into the equation. Essentially, even if you did get your Utterance off, the enemy still has a pretty damn good chance of saving, especially since most of them are will based. So here's how it goes. Up the Law of Resistance by a few to limit the times per day, and make the Truespeak DC easy to hit. 15+CR+2*Utterance Level sounds fine. Like every character, he'll have a decent time dealing with creatures of equal CR, wipe through those of lower CR, and have a chance at hitting characters with higher CRs. Being able to truespeak should really just...be a given. The Truespeaker still faces all the other problems wizards face- low hitpoints, poor armor, not enough turns, getting past saves, SR and wizard killers (Grapplers, rogues) and it's got poor saves and relatively fewer skills and an incredibly limited spell selection to boot. Thier highest 'spell level' is also 6, which makes them vulnerable to things like Rakshasas and invulnerability globes as well. If you look at it that way, maximized, extended and whatever have you utterances aren't that bad. A maximized Word of Naturing is laughable at 15th level. 60 damage for 2 rounds, with save? That's crap. Extend it! 60 damage over 4 rounds. That's sneezable. Any other character class can do that sort of damage at that level without even looking. Not only that, many effects are the SAME TRUENAME. If you want to heal your friend and deal damage, your DC increases TWICE. As for personal Truenames, maybe those you would leave the old DC caps on. Since they're all powerful and such, it makes sense. Going by the vanilla, This would allow an unoptimized truespeaker at level 20 with (+23 skill +3 Focus +4 Int +10 Amulet +5 Skill Utterance) = +45 To hit a CR 20 target twice before having to roll (DC 35, then Law of Resistance 2+Utterance level 5=42, Then 49) He gets three guaranteed shots, over three actions. Let's say he uses Knight's Puissance and Mystic Ramparts, or something, it's a -5 shot to AC saves and attack. He gets three more shots before casting that utterance becomes impossible. Let's say later the 20 level Truenamer fights some beholders. He's still ramping up his Truespeak DCs pretty high, but he can play some impressive games due to metamagic skills. Essentially, the Truespeaker turns into a spitfire spellcaster. His utterances don't do alot of damage, but they help buff the party. He can say less of them, but at least they work, and quickly. Like other spellcasters, he needs to conserve his utterances against lower creatures so they don't ramp up his DCs unneccessarily, and he can dish out lower level utterances like noones business. Super optimize the Truespeaker? He can throw out 6th level utterances at level 20 like candy. But wait- 6th level utterances aren't that powerful. Like every mage he's still limited by actions, and even then needs to divert feats and abilities into Charisma and Penetration to get past anything with good saves and SR. A wizard can deal massive damage and buff a hell of alot, create items and all that other wizard stuff. A fighter just flat out damages him. IF you don't superoptimize him, you could have really good DCs but have less casting chances (High Charisma) or you could multiclass and try to play cleric by buffing yourself! This is how things should work. Your utterances go off everytime- you just start to run dry of stuff, like every other character. What WOTC tried to do is go reverse- Give Truespeakers a hard time hitting things, but allow them to fire out millions of attempts ineffectually. This doesn't work if you're not playing marathon game sessions! The other lexicons seem to work fine, so leave the mechanics for those alone. Or if you want, just go ahead and apply the new Law of Resistance for all Utterances. It solves the superblaster problem, and generally shifts the Truespeaker into a much more moderate direction. This is only theory- I haven't done any hard calculation, 2+Level of Utterance might be a little too small. Someone do the math and figure out if it should be 3, 4 or whatever. ALTERNATIVE: Keep the same Truespeak -BUT The law of resistance applies to every Utterance- Or utterance attempt. Again, limiting the spitfire effect. I haven't thought that out much, so yeah.
Germytech 03-20-06, 11:54 PM	Hi, me again. Yeah, one of the many that has not yet recieved the book but is still willing to debate! The repeated disclaimer: I don't, in actuality, know what I'm talking about. :D It's looking like the truenamer is a completely satisfactory, though, different, kind of class. I imagine that it started out somewhat like this: Create a skill-based spellcasting stat. Starting from this point, it's obvious you are going to run into problems with spell levels, save DCs, and the like. Skills vary extremely wildly: Not only from 0-23 ranks over the course of twenty levels, but are also dependent on ability modifiers, circumstance bonuses (in general, not the specific type), and magic items. The spread is far larger than anything done before in 3.x spellcasting, and thus much more difficult to "balance." Yet, they (and we) still want a skill-based spellcaster. This, I imagine, was the reasoning for having multiple lexicons of various powers. It is impossible to have a simple, smoothly increasing spell system based on skill ranks. It cannot be done, and any attempt to do so will either create a character too weak at one end or too powerful on the other. So, the way I see it, the best solution is to have an incredibly difficult DC (15+CRx2), and introduce a different set of powers at higher levels, rather than attempt to have a set that scales through twenty levels. The truenamer, as far as I can tell, is perfectly fine. The designers realized you cannot create a single skill-based spellcasting mechanic, and they created a solution that I think is well-done, fascinating, and ingenius. Although, without any playtesting, I do believe that a DC of 15+HD might be more fun. ;) My thoughts, anyway. :cool:
Nairalimis 03-21-06, 01:19 AM	If you look at it that way, maximized, extended and whatever have you utterances aren't that bad. A maximized Word of Naturing is laughable at 15th level. 60 damage for 2 rounds, with save? That's crap. Extend it! 60 damage over 4 rounds. That's sneezable. Any other character class can do that sort of damage at that level without even looking. Just a point, the Words of Nuturing (and most damaging Utterances) don't allow saves. The majoirty of the evolving mind utterances are saveless.
TarlSS 03-21-06, 11:08 AM	Yeah. I looked back at a few of the utterances, and some of them are just nasty, particularly the one that grants negative levels with no save. So essentially you can kill something given enough rounds, seeing how the difficulty never increases. ( The DC goes down by 2 due to the negative level's effect on CR, and the DC goes up by two. ) But even then, 60 untyped damage per round at 15th level to a single target's not that impressive, especially considering how you can't heal during that time, nor can you recast it. The rate of increase on the Law of Resistance I suggested might be a bit low, but I still think the solution lies in hiking up the Law of Resistance and lowering the DC to hit. A truenamer also has access to spells, staves and all the other stuff casters get. What I didn't see is that Truenamers can just buy those Truename spells in the book and use them effectively (As they have the appropriate stats). Use Magic Device seems to be -very- integral in using a truenamer. It gives him access to all the spells of every class, and his truenames allow him to cast them metamagicked almost for free (Look at the Metamagic Item, Caster Lens and other mage boosting spells) The Truespeaker works far better as a UMD monkey than any bard, Rogue or Warlock because his abilities allow him to cast metamagicked. Any truenamer worth his salt can Caster Lens, Magic Contraction and Metamagic Item at least a few times per day thanks to the Personal Truename bonus. I really see a high level truenamer relying on getting off a -5 curse and maybe some negative levels, and then hitting the target with heightened/empowered spell items. It looks like Truenamers are going to be yet another 'artificier' type class that burns money for damage, using Truenames to supplement. As a note, Truenamers work best in parties with monster classes of course, as the DCs are based on Hit Die and not CR. This means you'll be the Werebear Elf Giant Lammasu Tiefling's best friend!
Ignatius Metamorphic 03-21-06, 02:05 PM	There's been a lot of great discussion on this thread. Here are some of my thoughts on some of the topics raised. Changing the Formulas: I would be very catious about modifying the Truespeak DC formulas until we have seen the class in actual play. I think that reducing the DCs will make the truenamer open to flagrant abuse. I am only just beginning to understand what a truenamer can do, how their abilities synergise, and how they fit into a standard game. Once people actually play the class, we will have a much better understanding of what it can and cannot do. Saving Throw Issue I agree with some of the previous posters (MysteryGilgamesh, Tarlss, and others) that most analysis so far has ignored the saving throw issue. Having said that, however, I don't think that saving throws are a huge deal for Truenames. Here is my thinking. 1. Truenamer saving throws scale differently. A wizards saving throws are (10+spell level+ability modifier) whereas a Truenamers are (10 + 1/2 casterlevel + ability modifier). This means that the saving throws on all the Truenamer's LOEM utterances increase as he goes up in level. A wizard's saving throws don't. For example, the saving throw for a 1st level spell is (11+ability modifier) and for a 9th level spell is (19+ability modifier). So, at 20th level a wizard has to contend with a range of saving throws. His lower level spells are less effective because of this. A Truenamer will find that all his utterances have a saving throw based on his level. Because of this ability scores are less important. 2. Like a wizard, the Truenamer can invest feats to boost his saving throws. Although the Truenamer gets fewer feats, he also doesn't need spell penetration and greater spell penetration. 3. The Truenamer also has many no-saving throw options: Coosing LOPM or LOCT utterances, choosing LOEM utterance that don't require a save, or (as wizards do) carefully matching his utterance to take advantage of his target's weak saving throws. 4. The Truenamer will almost certainly put his second best ability score into charisma to boost his saving throws. Damage Output Although 60 points of damage doesn't seem that impressive at 15th level, remember that it's no save, no SR damage. Compare it to a Wizard casting empowered Cone of Cold, a 7th level spell. Average Damage = 15D6 x 1.5 = 15 x 3.5 x 1.5 = 78.75 points of damage which is subject to saves, SR, and elemental resistance. Of course, Cone of Cold is an area spell. How does the Truenamer stack upat low and mid levels? Most of the discussion has focussed on Truenamers at 20th level. I think it's been shown that Truenamers are competitive with wizards at that level. Obviously, others disagree. There hasn't been a lot of comparison of Truenamers at low or mid levels. I would love to see more of that. What is the Role of the Truenamer? At first glance, everyone thinks of the Truenamer as another wizard/sorcerer class. I'm not sure that's accurate. A number of class features are different. Truenamers get 1. a D6 hit die 2. a cleric BAB 3. 4 skill points per level 4. proficiency with light armour 5. UMD as a class skill 6. Significant buffing and healing powers 7. Spontaneous "casting" These differences suggest to me that the Truenamer can do things a wizard can't. Are truenamers more like bards, clerics, or warlocks? Are they meant to be offensive casters, party buffers, generalists, or some other role? I'm not sure we've really figured out the Truenamer yet. Nothing I've seen has convinced me that the Truenamer needs to be "fixed". I think it's a very different class, but a perfectly playable class. Ignatius P.S. I don't have my Tome of Magic with me right now, so let me know if I've made any mistakes.
GalaGalaxia 11-18-06, 03:11 PM	Thank you for contacting us. Actually, a Truenamer gets a +4 to use utterances on themselves. That and your math is off on your example. 23 ranks + 13 (Int) +3 SkF + 4 (affecting yourself) = 43 + 20 = 63. This means you only need a 12 to Utter your own name, and subtracting the +4 to Utter another creature's truename means you only need a 16. Not bad if you ask me. Take Care! Where does that "+20" come from? Do you add your Truename level to the check?