Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cael 11-22-06, 07:53 PM	Hi, guys. I was just mucking around with a build today, and sort of got stuck. I was hoping that you can help me with it. What I am looking for is making a spellcasting Slyph (+5LA, I know...). I have got a few questions regarding that: 1) The slyphs special ability states that it gets it HD+4 in Sorcerer caster levels. If I, for example, take Sorcerer to continue its progression, does it that make a Slyph 3/Sorcerer 1 have a Sorcerer equivalent caster level of 8 or 9 (HD=4, +4 ability, +1 Sorcerer)? 2) I was thinking of making a Mystic Theurge type of character, but neither a Cleric or a Druid really fit the bill. Also, it would introduce MAD into the mix. So, my question is: Is there a good Cha-based caster-type out there besides the Sorcerer and the Favoured Soul? Oriental types (e.g., Shunenja) is not allowed. 3) Is there a class or PrC ability that would allow a Slyph character to grow permanently or at will until dismissed to Medium size? I would prefer not to rely on items for this. If you can get me past these initial hurdles, I would be back with a build that you can help me tweak. Thanks for your help.
Endarire 11-22-06, 08:11 PM	Your DM may allow a permanencied enlarge person. As for your sorcerer levels, they should stack. -EE
Cael 11-22-06, 08:15 PM	Your DM may allow a permanencied enlarge person. As for your sorcerer levels, they should stack. -EE That is a Sorcerer equivalent of 9? Just making sure... Enlarge won't work. Slyph is an outsider :(
Balthanon 11-22-06, 09:03 PM	Hi, guys. I was just mucking around with a build today, and sort of got stuck. I was hoping that you can help me with it. What I am looking for is making a spellcasting Slyph (+5LA, I know...). I have got a few questions regarding that: 1.) The best method of advancing a Sylph's caster level is actually Sylph hit dice while you are able to do this. They get better base attack bonus, hit die, and skill points than almost anything else you'll be able to pick up. To answer your question though, only racial hit dice would advance the spellcasting. (Though sorcerer levels will stack-- they just won't count double.) 2.) Spirit Shaman might be appropriate-- they still have partially Wisdom based casting though (bonus spells, ability score required to cast). The important bit, i.e. DC, is determined by Charisma though. 3.) First Sylph's are small, so if a spell were dismissed it would return them to that state. Ignoring that though, I can't think of anything permanent.
Cael 11-22-06, 09:07 PM	1.) The best method of advancing a Sylph's caster level is actually Sylph hit dice while you are able to do this. They get better base attack bonus, hit die, and skill points than almost anything else you'll be able to pick up. To answer your question though, only racial hit dice would advance the spellcasting. (Though sorcerer levels will stack-- they just won't count double.) The entry states it is their HD+4, not just racial HD? 2.) Spirit Shaman might be appropriate-- they still have partially Wisdom based casting though (bonus spells, ability score required to cast). The important bit, i.e. DC, is determined by Charisma though. This is the opposite of the Favoured, Soul, correct? 3.) First Sylph's are small, so if a spell were dismissed it would return them to that state. Ignoring that though, I can't think of anything permanent. I was trying to stay away from spells as they don't have the duration I was looking for (thinking of hours/days).
Balthanon 11-22-06, 09:13 PM	The entry states it is their HD+4, not just racial HD? It says the sylph's Hit Dice-- however, the entry was originally written without the intention of it being a playable race. It was only when the 3.5 conversion manual was released that they were given a level adjustment. I think it is safe to say that the intention is racial hit dice-- and even if it isn't, you aren't going to find many DMs that are going to let you take 2 caster levels with each level. I believe that is correct with regards to Favored Soul and Spirit Shaman.
Cael 11-22-06, 09:17 PM	It says the sylph's Hit Dice-- however, the entry was originally written without the intention of it being a playable race. It was only when the 3.5 conversion manual was released that they were given a level adjustment. I think it is safe to say that the intention is racial hit dice-- and even if it isn't, you aren't going to find many DMs that are going to let you take 2 caster levels with each level. Good point on the DM thing. I have seen DM's go red in the face and wreck the room for less. Thanks for your input. So, currently, I have one vote for stack and one for not stack.
fil kearney 11-22-06, 09:32 PM	1.) The best method of advancing a Sylph's caster level is actually Sylph hit dice while you are able to do this. They get better base attack bonus, hit die, and skill points than almost anything else you'll be able to pick up. I think the point here, cael, is that the sylph advancing hit dice is effectively a SoD... a Sorceror of Destruction. full sorceror progreession, fighter BAB, strong will and fort saves, decent skills and feats. I can't find the thing.. would a 20 hd sylph retain sorceror spellcasting if shapechanged into a solar for clerical access? is spell casting considered supernatural for the sylph, and thus inaccessible when shapechanged... ooh! and if it IS considered supernatural, would it not still operate within an antimagic zone?
Cael 11-22-06, 09:37 PM	I think the point here, cael, is that the sylph advancing hit dice is effectively a SoD... a Sorceror of Destruction. full sorceror progreession, fighter BAB, strong will and fort saves, decent skills and feats. I know that, my friend. But that is not what I am asking, as advancing as a Cleric could also potentially make her advance as a Sorcerer at the same rate (due to the whole HD+4 ability). Class levels are still HD.
Caelic 11-22-06, 10:39 PM	I actually played with this a while back, offering a particularly silly build that centered around a Sylph abusing Wild Shape to stack multiple Awakenings. There is, however, a problem by a strict reading of the rules. Take a look at the Sylph's description again. Note that, while her caster level varies with her hit dice, her number of spells per day and number of spells known are fixed. What you'd be dealing with, per RAW, is a character who never gains more spells, but has a progressively higher caster level when casting those spells.
Cael 11-22-06, 10:45 PM	I actually played with this a while back, offering a particularly silly build that centered around a Sylph abusing Wild Shape to stack multiple Awakenings. There is, however, a problem by a strict reading of the rules. Take a look at the Sylph's description again. Note that, while her caster level varies with her hit dice, her number of spells per day and number of spells known are fixed. What you'd be dealing with, per RAW, is a character who never gains more spells, but has a progressively higher caster level when casting those spells. Actually, it does. The entry describes the Slyph has having 3rd level spells, which is inline with a 7th level Sorcerer, which would be right if it is her HD+4 (i.e., 3+4). By the rules, she gets everything a Sorcerer does except the Familiar. This makes Shapechange kind of... (I hesitate to use this) broken for a Slyph. Instant doubling of caster level for 1 9th level spell...
JaronK 11-22-06, 10:46 PM	I can't find the thing.. would a 20 hd sylph retain sorceror spellcasting if shapechanged into a solar for clerical access? is spell casting considered supernatural for the sylph, and thus inaccessible when shapechanged... ooh! and if it IS considered supernatural, would it not still operate within an antimagic zone? Did you actually just ask if a Slyph loses their spellcasting ability within an antimagic zone? Think about that question for a moment. JaronK
Caelic 11-22-06, 10:55 PM	Actually, it does. The entry describes the Slyph has having 3rd level spells, which is inline with a 7th level Sorcerer, which would be right if it is her HD+4 (i.e., 3+4). By the rules, she gets everything a Sorcerer does except the Familiar. No. That's an assumption and an interpretation. A reasonable assumption and interpretation, granted, but an assumption and interpretation nonetheless. The fact that the Sylph's fixed number of spells per day and number of spells known happen to correspond to those of a seventh level spellcaster, and that the caster level of a typical Sylph is ALSO seventh level, does not mean that these two factors are correlated. Indeed, the way it's worded suggests that they are not. If the intent had been to give the Sylph the casting ability of a Sorceror of her hit dice +4, this would have been better and more easily accomplished by simply writing "The Sylph has the casting ability of a Sorceror with level equal to her Hit Dice +4." Discussing her caster level--which is established as being variable--seperately from her spells per day and spells known--which are NOT so established--the designers (whether they intended to or not) seperate these two factors. Again, reread the Sylph's description. The only thing that is described as being variable is caster level. Many DMs would likely houserule this as full Sorceror spellcasting equal to HD+4, but that's not what the description gives.
Cael 11-23-06, 03:07 PM	No. That's an assumption and an interpretation. A reasonable assumption and interpretation, granted, but an assumption and interpretation nonetheless. The fact that the Sylph's fixed number of spells per day and number of spells known happen to correspond to those of a seventh level spellcaster, and that the caster level of a typical Sylph is ALSO seventh level, does not mean that these two factors are correlated. Indeed, the way it's worded suggests that they are not. If the intent had been to give the Sylph the casting ability of a Sorceror of her hit dice +4, this would have been better and more easily accomplished by simply writing "The Sylph has the casting ability of a Sorceror with level equal to her Hit Dice +4." Discussing her caster level--which is established as being variable--seperately from her spells per day and spells known--which are NOT so established--the designers (whether they intended to or not) seperate these two factors. Again, reread the Sylph's description. The only thing that is described as being variable is caster level. Many DMs would likely houserule this as full Sorceror spellcasting equal to HD+4, but that's not what the description gives. Hmm... You are right. I don't doubt that I can convince my DM to go the full Sorcerer casting way, but this is actually just a thought exercise for me. Now, assuming that we can get full Sorcerer spellcasting for the Slyph, what would be good classes/PrCs for a casting Slyph to take (we will also assume that +arcane caster classes or PrCs do not stack with the HD+4 thing, because otherwise, it will just be too much). I was thinking of Favoured Soul, but that is just by default because it is a Cha based caster (house ruled to Cha only, not dual Wis/Cha), which would synergise well with Sorcerer. After that, I sort of got stuck, because I am not too sure which PrC (if any) to go for. Alternatively, I was also thinking of Warlock or Psion, but the former seemed a bit out of step with a carefree, curious sprite outsider, and the latter would introduce MAD...
fil kearney 11-24-06, 01:33 AM	cael... I misunderstood the inflection of your responses... of course. jaronk.. I was thinking supernatural abilities still operated in A< fields... yer right. gone crazy. don't sugenja use cha? there are elemental aligned... sylphn are water based, yes? that would seem theme-appropriate, as well as potent.
Zemyla 11-24-06, 06:24 PM	Did you actually just ask if a Slyph loses their spellcasting ability within an antimagic zone? Think about that question for a moment. JaronK It could be important. For example, if she wants to cast Invoke Magic or something.
Cael 11-26-06, 07:37 PM	cael... I misunderstood the inflection of your responses... of course. jaronk.. I was thinking supernatural abilities still operated in A< fields... yer right. gone crazy. don't sugenja use cha? there are elemental aligned... sylphn are water based, yes? that would seem theme-appropriate, as well as potent. Slyphs are air based. You are thinking of Selkies or Nerieds, which are water based. I was trying to avoid Shunenja because of the Oriental feel of the class. I am trying for the Western feel. Speaking of which, does anyone know if there are other ways of getting into Master of Many Forms other than Druid 5? In particular getting the Wildshape feature...
Caelic 11-26-06, 07:43 PM	Why not max out that Charisma synergy? Go with this: Sylph 4/Bard 1/Paladin 2/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 3 Or something similar. Use Devoted Performer or Paladin of Freedom to deal with the alignment issues. Decent BAB and hit points, decent skills, Charisma to saves, a full second set of Charisma-dependent 9th level spellcasting, and a little bit of bardic music.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 11-27-06, 09:08 AM	Would you two, stop arguing and be nice to each other. I'm still convinced you are the same person. Which makes me wonder why you're arguing with yourself? :looloo:
Prominence 11-27-06, 09:21 AM	If the intent had been to give the Sylph the casting ability of a Sorceror of her hit dice +4, this would have been better and more easily accomplished by simply writing "The Sylph has the casting ability of a Sorceror with level equal to her Hit Dice +4." Even though the description in MMII says (hopefully without OGL breaking) "A sylph can cast arcane spells as a sorcerer. Caster level = sylph's HD+ 4." Seems Sorcerer levels would progress their casting.
Cael 11-27-06, 04:22 PM	Would you two, stop arguing and be nice to each other. I'm still convinced you are the same person. Which makes me wonder why you're arguing with yourself? :looloo: LoL! I doubt that we are the same person, unless I am having blackouts... Hmm... Come to think of it... :D
Cael 11-27-06, 04:24 PM	Why not max out that Charisma synergy? Go with this: Sylph 4/Bard 1/Paladin 2/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 3 Or something similar. Use Devoted Performer or Paladin of Freedom to deal with the alignment issues. Decent BAB and hit points, decent skills, Charisma to saves, a full second set of Charisma-dependent 9th level spellcasting, and a little bit of bardic music. That is doable. Alignment is TN, though (as per Slyph in MM2), which nixes the Paladin idea. This is what I have come up with so far: Slyph 3/Druid 5/Master of Many Forms 7 All that fun Wildshaping. The enemies wouldn't know if the next tree they pass is going to send a Fireball up their bums or not :D
Caelic 11-27-06, 07:50 PM	There's always: Sylph 4/Druid 3/Arcane Hierophant 10 ...which should still net you Wildshape, as well as a broader range of spells.
jameswilliamogle 11-27-06, 08:54 PM	Even though the description in MMII says (hopefully without OGL breaking) "A sylph can cast arcane spells as a sorcerer. Caster level = sylph's HD+ 4." Seems Sorcerer levels would progress their casting.In the PGtF web enhancement, it describes the Phaerimm as doing just that (sorcerer levels stack w/ HD for determining casting). Why it would be different for the Sylph, I don't know, but maybe it is. It seems kind of silly if they intended for the casting not to advance w/ more HD.
Caelic 11-27-06, 09:13 PM	Even though the description in MMII says (hopefully without OGL breaking) "A sylph can cast arcane spells as a sorcerer. Caster level = sylph's HD+ 4." Seems Sorcerer levels would progress their casting. ...except that you left out the rest of the description of their ability, Prominence. You know, the part where it specifically spells out how many spells per day they have, and how many they know, and does so independently of their caster level. If they'd truly meant for the Sylph to have the casting ability of a Sorceror with a level equal to her HD+4. they could've (and should've) just stopped at the part you quote. They didn't. And, of course, this is irrelevant to the thread at hand; we've established that, for purposes of this thread, the Sylph may be considered to work that way.
Cael 11-27-06, 10:17 PM	There's always: Sylph 4/Druid 3/Arcane Hierophant 10 ...which should still net you Wildshape, as well as a broader range of spells. Thanks for that. I was seriously considering it, to be honest, except that there is really no point, since Arcane Heirophant won't increase the Sorcerer caster levels (i.e., the Slyph HD and the AH will overlap, not stack). This is to prevent the double tapping and gaining of 2 caster levels/HD thing. Straight Druid would be more practical in this sense, as you get the abilities plus the larger HD and better saves. Remember also that I was looking for a way to make the Slyph be Medium sized at will (basically look human) without using items, and the Master of Many Forms seem to allow that (more or less).
Caelic 11-27-06, 10:22 PM	Well, there's always Shapechanger from Oriental Adventures. As per the 3.5 update, a one-level dip apparently nets you Wildshape with a hit dice cap equal to your character (not class) level.
Cael 11-27-06, 10:24 PM	Well, there's always Shapechanger from Oriental Adventures. As per the 3.5 update, a one-level dip apparently nets you Wildshape with a hit dice cap equal to your character (not class) level. :eek: Caelic, you are a genius! I'll look into it and be back with a build...! Dang. It is in Dragon Mag. Sorry, man. Won't work, since that is not considered kosher in these parts...
skydragonknight 11-27-06, 10:27 PM	:eek: Caelic, you are a genius! I'll look into it and be back with a build...! Now he's calling himself a genius. ;)
Cael 11-27-06, 10:33 PM	Now he's calling himself a genius. ;) Hmm... You remind me of a little guy in one of the MUDs I used to frequent... Well, your handle do :D
Cael 12-12-06, 04:26 PM	Finally, the rough version (&*#^&#*$*@ exams...!): Sylph; AL N Outsider 3/Druid 3/Beastmaster 2/Arcane Hierophant 2/Master of Many Forms 1/Druid 5 Small Outsider Special Abilities: Slyph – Darkvision 60ft, Innate Spellcasting (HD+4), Greater Invisibility, Spell Resistance 14+class levels (SR 27), Summon Elemental 1/day, Wild Empathy (13+Cha) Druid – Animal Companion 18, Nature Sense, Resist Nature’s Lures, Trackless Step, Wildshape 4/day, Wildshape (large), Woodland Stride Arcane Hierophant – Ignore Arcane Spell Failure Master of Many Forms – Improved Wildshape (humanoid), Shifter’s Speech Feats: Slyph – Simple Weapons, Martial Weapons Beastmaster – Alertness Levels: 1 – Empower Spell 3 – Natural Bond 6 – Endurance 9 – Quicken Spell 12 – Improved Initiative 15 – Chain Spell Cast as a level 20 Sorcerer and a level 10 Druid. Companion Familiar with level 18 Druid companion and level 20 Sorcerer familiar abilities BAB = 12 Base Saves = Fort +14, Ref +10, Will +12 *********************************** Thoughts? Comments? Critiques?