Post/Author/DateTime	Post
colm_l 11-03-06, 12:48 PM	So, the acid test for a Gish used to be BAB 16 & 9th level spells. The point of this thread is something slightly different: with the plethora of Gish classes released in this edition (& specifically prompted by the release of the complete mage & the Abjurant Champion [a 5 level full BAB & CL Prog class] it contains) - , I’ve been wondering if a true caster (no loss of spell progression) with a BAB of 16 is possible. For obvious reasons I’d prefer to limit this to the standard spellcasting class types (no Battle-sorceror or accelerated casting classes, since these kind of defeat the point of the thread). Limits: Standard spellcasting class as a base (the usual ½ BAB type). No Accelerated Spell Progression class Classes of note Full BAB/Full Prog Abjurant Champion (5 level, one feat entry – prob. One of a kind) ¾ BAB/Full prog. Sacred Exorcist Ruathar Raumathari battlemage Full BAB/Full Prog only for the first level Bladesinger 1, Requires 5 BAB, Elf or Half Elf Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Weapon Focus (Longsword)–or– Weapon Focus (Rapier). Dragon Slayer 1, Requires 5 BAB, Dodge, Iron Will SpellSword, Requires 4 BAB & armour proficiencies Thrall of Demogorgon, Requires 4 BAB, CE Alignment, Willing Deformity Feat, Thrall to Demon Feat. Thrall of Orcus, Requires 4 BAB, Any E Alignment, Lichloved Feat, Thrall to Demon Feat other notable things Greater Draconic Rite of Passage – allows us to leave a one level gap in spellcasting prog. in classes by giving us an additional level of spellcasting.
fnord 11-03-06, 01:10 PM	Bladesinger would work for one level, but is rather feat intensive and requires you to be an elf. Neraph gives all weapons and all armor, which could save some feats. However, only Thrall of Demogorgon gives +1 BAB/caster level, of the thrall classes.
rilem 11-03-06, 01:18 PM	Elf Wizard6/Dragonslayer1/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion5/RaumanthariBattlemage4/SacredExorcist3 BAB 15, CL20 or Elf Wizard5/Battlemage10/AbjurantChampion5 (This is simpler and this avoids the Dragonslayer cheese) but you only get BAB14 and CL19 (but 20 with sword focus)
HelloRaptor 11-03-06, 01:25 PM	I'm partial to: Wizard 6 Dragonslayer 1 Runesmith 2 Abjurant Champion 5 Eldritch Knight 6 BAB 16 / Caster Level 19 Spellcasting in Adamantine Full Plate for the win! ;D
SKB 11-03-06, 03:02 PM	Elf Wizard6/Dragonslayer1/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion5/RaumanthariBattlemage4/SacredExorcist3 BAB 15, CL20 or Elf Wizard5/Battlemage10/AbjurantChampion5 (This is simpler and this avoids the Dragonslayer cheese) but you only get BAB14 and CL19 (but 20 with sword focus) Dragonslayer1 requires BAB +5 ...Wizard6 = BAB +3 Wizard6/Ruathar3/Dragonslayer1/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion5/EldritchKnight4 BAB 16 / CL 19
rilem 11-03-06, 03:16 PM	Ah — Not really an issue, though, you can put Raumanthari Battlemage in front of everything else to get the BAB up. That's easily enterable at level 7 for a wizard.
ninjarabbit 11-03-06, 09:58 PM	battlesorcerer15/abjurantchampion5, 16 BAB and 20 CL
X-Codes 11-03-06, 11:16 PM	battlesorcerer15/abjurantchampion5, 16 BAB and 20 CL Nevermind how craptacular Battlesorcerer is... If you want to gish without losing CL's then take multiple Innate Spell (PGtF version) feats and 5 Spell-Like Ability abilities from Archmage and just repeatedly cast Tenser's Transformation.
Phoenix00 11-04-06, 12:13 AM	Okay our goal is 16 BAB and full caster level correct? 8 1/2 BAB, 12 1 BAB 6 1/2 BAB, 4 3/4 BAB, 10 1 BAB 4 1/2 BAB, 8 3/4 BAB, 8 1 BAB Easy 1 BAB classes I can think you an get into easly. Abruant Champion 5 levels, Requires 5 BAB, Combat Casting Swordsage 1 level, Requires 4 BAB Bladesinger 1, Requires 5 BAB, Elf or Half Elf Combat Casting,Combat Expertise, Dodge,Weapon Focus (Longsword)–or– Weapon Focus (Rapier). Dragon Slayer 1, Requires 5 BAB, Dodge, Irown Will Thrall of Demogorgon, Requires 4 BAB, CE Alingment, Willing Deformity Feat, Thrall to Demon Feat. Thrall of Orcus, Requirees 4 BAB, Any E Alingment, Lichloved Feat, Thrall to Demon Feat Can somebody find a 3/4 BAB class(es) that also advances you can enter in after 6 level or 4th level (Most likely you have to put your low BAB requirements classes first thus you need to enter it with 6 or 4 levels of wizard and sorcerer). On another note what is the BAB given by the White Dragonspawn template?
fnord 11-04-06, 01:19 AM	On another note what is the BAB given by the White Dragonspawn template? None. Big bonuses to attributes and natural armor. Can somebody find a 3/4 BAB class(es) that also advances you can enter in after 6 level or 4th level (Most likely you have to put your low BAB requirements classes first thus you need to enter it with 6 or 4 levels of wizard and sorcerer). With the Sanctum Spell trick, you can get into Rauther at 4, Wizard 4/Rauthar 3/Thrall of Orcus 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Thrall to Demogorgon 1/Dragon Slayer 1/Spell Sword 1/Everskan Tomb Guardian 3 Feats needed: Sanctum Spell, Thrall to Demon, Lichloved, Combat Casting, Willing Deformity, Dodge, Iron Will, Combat Expertise, WF: Longsword or Rapier, Alertness, Track Which, unless one of those classes gets some bonus feats, is too many, even with flaws.
Phoenix00 11-04-06, 01:38 AM	If you don't mind being a sorcerer and a kobold, you can easily do Sorcerer 1/Kobold Paragon 3 as your first 4 levels. You will be 1 caster level behind until level 6 when you perform the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage which advances you 1 additional spells known level for the cost of a feat and 3 hps. This combo nets you a bab of 2.75 in 4 levels, meaning you only need 13.25 bab over 16 levels.
fnord 11-04-06, 02:37 AM	Wouldn't it be better to use Greater Draconic Rite of Passage to take a full BAB 1/2 advancement class for 3 levels? If it works: Kobold Sorcerer 6/Ruather 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Dragon Slayer 1/Spellsword 3/Thall of Orcus 1/Thrall of Demogorgon 1 Feats: Combat Casting, Iron Will, Dodge, Thrall to Demon, Willing Deformity, Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. Casts as a 20th level Sorcerer, +16 BAB! Nice find on Greater Draconic Rite of Passage.
WombleHunter 11-04-06, 05:55 AM	I didn't think combining more than one Thrall class was legal.
colm_l 11-04-06, 07:25 AM	<Snip> BAB 16 / Caster Level 19 Not a bad build - but not what this thread is about Okay our goal is 16 BAB and full caster level correct? That's the one - I think I may not have been very clear in my original post. I was typing in a hurry. Wouldn't it be better to use Greater Draconic Rite of Passage to take a full BAB 1/2 advancement class for 3 levels? It could also be used to patch the standard BAB16 CL 19 gish (Sorc 6/(either EK or KP 10)/SE 4) up to CL 20. Kobold Sorcerer 6/Ruather 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Dragon Slayer 1/Spellsword 3/Thall of Orcus 1/Thrall of Demogorgon 1 Yep that works. Nice find on Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. Indeed.
FriendlyFrog 11-04-06, 07:38 AM	I used to think this vary same thing some time ago. Elf Wizard 6/Thrall of Eltab 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant champion 5/Bladesinger 1/Dragonslayer 1/Raumathari battlemage 4 was the best I could come up with. It's still one +1 casting and +1 BAB dip away from spells as a 20th level Wizard and +16 BAB. Though I have no idea if you can actually meet the feat requirements...
Mordar 11-10-06, 04:50 PM	how 'bout Battle sorcerer 8/Abjurant Champion 5/Dragonslayer 1/spellsword 5/Thrall of Demogorgon 1 CL 18 BAB 18 with whitedragonspawn template you get +1 CL if you go elf you sacrifice a bonus feat but instead you take 1 lvl of bladesinger and you are just perfect Battle sorcerer 7/abjurant champion 5/dragonslayer 1/spellsword 5/thrall of demogorgon 1/bladesinger 1 BAB 18 CL 18 this gives you +4 AC from the bladesinger when wielding just a longsword in one hand or battle sorcerer 7/abjurant champion 5/dragonslayer 1/spellsword 5/thrall of demogorgon 1/thrall of orcus 1 for more evil tricks although, still needs feats to pull everything perfectly :( edit: kaiza noticed my build was already lvl 20, sorry for that
kaiza 11-10-06, 04:55 PM	Actually your build is already 20th level. :) k.
Mordar 11-10-06, 05:04 PM	oh damn sorry, just got exited with the +1/+1 classes :( although if you take white dragonspawn template you could be CL 19 easily, also greater draconic rite of passage sorry again, didn't notice the lvl 20 already made build although....now that I think about, if you give up the channel ability and the battle sorcerer stuff you can get BAB 18 and CL 19 if you take two thrall of...prc's Fighter or paladin 1/Sorcerer 6/AC 5/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1/Thrall of Orcus 1/Thrall of Demogorgon 1/Phantom Knight or Eldricht Knight 5 this according to some "vague" calculations gives 18 BAB, CL 19 (CL 20 with white dragonspawn) and casting in light armour (if you take phantom knight)
FriendlyFrog 11-10-06, 05:34 PM	You can only be a thrall of one demon, so no Thrall of Orcus and Thrall of Demogorgon on the same build.
Mordar 11-10-06, 06:08 PM	then in that case the character could always be an elf or half elf thus entering bladesinger and take of one of the thrall of prc's although from you have to look closely for the lots of feat requirements
ChristopherGroves 11-10-06, 07:00 PM	The +1 casting is rough. With the FR militia feat you can achieve a -1 CL with good BAB, but that last one is tough.
The_Shaman 11-10-06, 08:38 PM	I don't know if it helps, but an elf with a few rangerish feats (alertness, track) and a few ranks in various skills can qualify as evereskan Tomb Guardian (3.5 PGtF, 3/4 attack, full casting). It requires 2 lvl arcane spells and 4+ BAB.
Slyver 11-10-06, 09:43 PM	Wouldn't it be better to use Greater Draconic Rite of Passage to take a full BAB 1/2 advancement class for 3 levels? If it works: Kobold Sorcerer 6/Ruather 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Dragon Slayer 1/Spellsword 3/Thall of Orcus 1/Thrall of Demogorgon 1 Feats: Combat Casting, Iron Will, Dodge, Thrall to Demon, Willing Deformity, Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. Casts as a 20th level Sorcerer, +16 BAB! Nice find on Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. Very good idea, but why not use EK instead of spellsword and free up a couple of feats? Kobold (or white dragonspawn) Sorcerer 6/Ruathar 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Dragon Slayer 1/Spellsword 1/EK 4 Feats: Combat Casting, Iron Will, Dodge, Greater Draconic Rite of Passage BAB 16, Sorcerer casting 20 Slyver
ChristopherGroves 11-10-06, 11:15 PM	Does one of those make up for the EK first level lack of a caster progression?
Slyver 11-10-06, 11:56 PM	Both the kobold with greater draconic rite of passage, and the white dragonspawn (with LA buy-off) grant +1 level sorcerer casting without actually having to level. So, short answer, yes. Slyver
ChristopherGroves 11-11-06, 12:08 AM	Ah sweet. Well if that's the case you don't have to work so hard ... just start with EK 10, Spellsword 1, Dragonslayer 1, Abjurant Champion 5 and work your way backwards ... those would only have a single sorc casting level to make up and be full BAB the entire way. How quickly can you get into Abjurant Champion? I don't have the book and have no idea what its pre-reqs are... So, a Kobold can buy it off. Nice. Not alot of full BAB/casting classes even at low levels. Isn't Ruathor a 3 level class?
Slyver 11-11-06, 12:31 AM	Ah sweet. Well if that's the case you don't have to work so hard ... just start with EK 10, Spellsword 1, Dragonslayer 1, Abjurant Champion 5 and work your way backwards ... those would only have a single sorc casting level to make up and be full BAB the entire way. How quickly can you get into Abjurant Champion? I don't have the book and have no idea what its pre-reqs are... So, a Kobold can buy it off. Nice. Not alot of full BAB/casting classes even at low levels. Isn't Ruathor a 3 level class? The problem is, in order to get into any of those classes, you have to have sufficient BAB. Thus the reason for Ruathor. It provides you with BAB 5, which is what it takes to get into either dragonslayer or AC. Both of which are necessary for the other two classes. Slyver
Endarire 11-11-06, 03:13 AM	Generic Caster 5/Ruathar3/Arcane Trickster6/Dragonslayer1/Abjurant Champion5/Spellsword1/Raumathari Battlemage3 Requires Combat Casting, Iron Will, Dodge, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), and one metamagic feat. This requires heavy planning, but you can get it in time. BAB: 17 normal or 18 fractional (2.5+2.5+4.5+1+5+1+3) CL: 20 -EE
FriendlyFrog 11-11-06, 04:08 AM	Generic Caster 5/Ruathar3/Arcane Trickster6/Dragonslayer1/Abjurant Champion5/Spellsword1/Raumathari Battlemage3 Just, what? First, that's 24 levels. Second, Generic caster and Arcane trickster have 1/2 BAB, and Ruathar and Raumathari battlemage have 3/4 BAB, so even if you'd get normal BAB in epic, that would be 16. Currently the build has a BAB of only 13 before epic.
Endarire 11-11-06, 04:43 AM	Elf or Half-Elf Wizard or Sorcerer or Generic Caster4/Ruathar3/Raumathari Battlemage4/Dragonslayer1/Abjurant Champion5/Spellsword1/Bladesinger1/Thrall of Orcus1 Requires Sanctum Spell, Militia, Combat Casting, Iron Will, Dodge, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), one metamagic feat, Combat Expertise, and Weapon Focus (longsword or rapier). Everything before level 20 requires heavy planning and, if not a generic spellcaster, all your available feats and two flaws, but you can get it in time. Can you get all the feats in time? BAB: 16 normal and 16.5 fractional (2 + 2.5 + 3 + 1 + 5 + 1 + 1) CL: 20 -EE
Kuroi Kenshi 11-11-06, 04:56 AM	Elf or Half-Elf Wizard or Sorcerer or Generic Caster4/Ruathar3/Raumathari Battlemage4/Dragonslayer1/Abjurant Champion5/Spellsword1/Bladesinger1Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's 19 class levels.
Cambion76 11-11-06, 07:12 AM	Why so complicated? Bard1/Duskblade9/Sublime Chord2/Eldritch Knight8 BAB +18 9th level spells Caster Level:19 Not so many spells known and even less cancast, but plenty nice things in exchange. (i.e. quick cast 1/day, wear armor, channel spells) + its a good fighter even early in the game: +1 inspire courage, +2 bull's strenght; not to mention a leaping power attack with a two-handed-weapon under the influence of a quickened true strike. + its maybe a far shot too, but not as arkward as many other gishes with 6 or more classes, so you have a chance to persuade a DM to actually let you play it.
colm_l 11-11-06, 07:22 AM	Why so complicated? Bard1/Duskblade9/Sublime Chord2/Eldritch Knight8 how 'bout Battle sorcerer 8/Abjurant Champion 5/Dragonslayer 1/spellsword 5/Thrall of Demogorgon 1 Sorry, the point of this thread was to avoid non-standard casters & accelerated casting (otherwise it's fairly trivial). Anyone know if white-dragonspawn is a template or a race? - If it's a template we can push the Spell Prog up one level.
ChristopherGroves 11-11-06, 08:28 AM	It's a race.
Mordar 11-11-06, 01:48 PM	a race? last thing I knew it was a template (+1 LA) from dragonlance campaign Sorry, the point of this thread was to avoid non-standard casters & accelerated casting (otherwise it's fairly trivial). that's why I ideated this build Fighter or paladin 1/Sorcerer 6/AC 5/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1/Thrall of Orcus 1/Bladesinger 1/Eldricht Knight 4 this nets you BAB 18 and CL 18, 19 with white dragonspawn, the main problem here is being and elf or half elf and the feat intensive
Endarire 11-11-06, 04:09 PM	Elf or Half-Elf Wizard or Sorcerer or Generic Caster4/Ruathar3/Raumathari Battlemage4/Dragonslayer1/Abjurant Champion5/Spellsword1/Bladesinger1/Thrall of Orcus1 Requires Sanctum Spell, Militia, Combat Casting, Iron Will, Dodge, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), one metamagic feat, Combat Expertise, and Weapon Focus (longsword or rapier). Everything before level 20 requires heavy planning and, if not a generic spellcaster, all your available feats and two flaws, but you can get it in time. Can you get all the feats in time? BAB: 16 normal and 16.5 fractional (2 + 2.5 + 3 + 1 + 5 + 1 + 1) CL: 20 -EE
colm_l 11-11-06, 06:24 PM	this nets you BAB 18 and CL 18, 19 with white dragonspawn, the main problem here is being and elf or half elf and the feat intensive Yes, but the point is perfect spellcasting with a gish BAB - while your build isn't a bad gish it's still not right for this topic