Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Grizzled Gryphon 11-08-05, 04:39 PM	Hi, everyone. I need a level 20 guy for a game that I have been asked to join. The characters are all Gestalt, and I know there is a Warlock/ Hexblade, and a Hexblade/ Sorcerer. I don't know what the other guy is going to be, but any ideas you have for him would be nice, too, as I can relay the suggestions to him. As for books we have available, we have the core books, CA, CD, CAdv, CW, Sandstorm, Dragonomicon, BoVD, BoED, and MM1,2, and 3. Oh, and Savage Species and XPH. If we want to use a race, it has to less than ECL 4 before class levels are added. In other words, our racial hit die and level adjustment has to be 4 or less. I guess we are in need of a rogue, cleric, and another tank. Any ideas? I am considering the ever popular rogue/ fighter. I would like to try something different, though. The DM assures me that if there we are lacking any of the 'core' classes, that it will be fine. That may be, but I still think there should be someone with some healing abilities. Please, if you have a great build, but it doesn't ONLY use the afore mentioned books, don't add it. Thanks.
MeleeMonster 11-08-05, 07:00 PM	So not a build but some general suggestions: Feral template from SS. But going with a 3 level hd creature that will compleement this well may be difficult. (Not sure but I think the line for advantages in SS is 3 HD for better stuff. So perfect for you. Is the GM totally opposed to online as well? Because Mineral Warrior is always a classic. Though it would have to be worked in from above if he is counting templates as ECL, which I think he should. If you only have a couple of levels for template think about stone dwarven (Unearthed Arcana) 1/2 troll or stone dwarf 1/2 minotuar. These guys make mean melee fighters. (Again other sources though but you get the idea) If you want a melee cleric that is really unique I would suggest a Stone Dwarf Feral 1/2 Minotuar on one side and cleric up the rest all the way. Then go with Monk for a beast of unarmed (remember improved grab from feral). Or go with barbarian fighter combo to unleash hell with weapons. I have also found that a monk 7(?) to Kensai for 10 to ??? for 3/Cleric 20 is a beast and gives you healing and lethal abilities for a cleric. So is the Fighter or Paladin 5 to Kensai 10 to ??? for 5/Cleric 20.
Zemyla 11-08-05, 07:54 PM	You could always go for an archivist/wizard gestalt.
Grizzled Gryphon 11-08-05, 08:34 PM	You could always go for an archivist/wizard gestalt. Where is the Archivist at? Unless it is one of the books I stated as having above, then it isn't available to me. That would be why i put that part in the post
Jandor1 11-08-05, 09:05 PM	for a spell heavy, but really nasty combination, try warmage 20//favored soul 20. pick healing and buff spells for favored soul, and then destroy all opposition with warmage. they both use charisma, so you're set there. another fun build is a fighter//cleric archer build; put all kinds of stat points into wisdom, wear heavy armor, have lots of fun archer feats AND room for the persistant metamagic brokenness, and slaughter everything. and have healing. throw in hierophant for 4 levels, and you can get +2 caster level and touch spells with 60 ft reach. great for battlefield healing. lets see... wizard//psion. nuff said. LN druid//monk might be nice too, depending on whether or not your DM lets you use your monk damage for wild shape attacks... anywho, hope that helps you out.
serow_#R 11-08-05, 09:16 PM	would a cleric/psychic warrior gestalt be useful ?
tsuyoshikentsu 11-08-05, 09:51 PM	I'm going to tell you the same thing I tell anyone who has access to Completes and the Draco: make a supermount. On the other side, be something that riding is good with.
batstek 11-08-05, 09:54 PM	Agreed with the above poster. Pal20//Supermount build would be incredibly sweet, especially if you could handle doing it with a small race and keeping a relatively small dragon for use in close quarters areas.
Vaelan 11-08-05, 10:31 PM	My favorite little gestalt trick is to use one half of the progression to take classes that offer limited spellcasting or no spellcasting yet give significant bonuses to spellcasters. For example, the Sybil PrC from Savage Species lets you add your class level to your Wisdom score for the purposes of determining bonus spells and save DCs. The catch? It doesn't offer a single caster level throughout ten levels. With gestalt, you could take Cleric and Sybil for boosted save DCs. The prerequisites aren't too bad; a Gnome only has to sacrifice one feat to enter at level 8. Working in Divine Metamagic (Quicken), Limited Wish as a divine spell (Spell domain :yuck: ), and five levels of Fatespinner would allow you to throw save-or-dies that even dragons fear (DC 43 with the option of throwing a quickened limited wish for a -7 to the save). There's also the humor involved in being a cross between a magic 8-ball and a sphinx... The Metamind from the Expanded Psionics Handbook grants some extremely nice abilities, but is considered worthless because it only offers half manifesting progression. However, with gestalt you can use Free Manifesting to augment powers to ridiculous levels and Font of Power to nova for free without sacrificing manifester levels. The Master Transmogrifist also has some interesting possibilities when you can fill in the four missing caster levels to use shapechange with Infinite Variety. By going this route, you sacrifice most of the benefits of gestalt, but it allows you to really push the boundaries in whatever field you specialize in.
Neb Rybel 11-08-05, 11:25 PM	Answer to Thread Title: Yes it is. It is hard to find a gestalt that can do everything. The reason it is easy to find a good gestalt build is because there are a lot of builds that benefit from a simple side progression. Example: A Druid that wants to be a great wild shape warrior, could easily be a nature's warrior and war shaper on the side. With a solid start of Fighter and Monk to get feats (Improved Unarmed Strike and Stunning Fist from Monk, and Improved Grapple from Fighter). The key to Gestalting is to accept that no matter what classes you get, you get the same number of 7 feats from levels (7: 1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th) and race, so you can't just take two good builds and slap them together. This means you have to take an idea you like, and then find what makes it better. Straight Monk makes for a fine character, but it still benefits from Fighter on the other side because it gives 11 more feats, a better Base Attack Bonus, and proficiency with ranged weapons! Or straight Paladin paired with a Ranger/Beastmaster/Animal Lord using the Devoted Tracker feat to get a mount that can take more damage than your actual character (or do something rediculous like a Tiger mount so that it can pounce on your ride-by attacks).
World Savers Inc. 11-08-05, 11:55 PM	Pyschic Warrior can be subpar because of the lack of high level powers and the key for a buffing tank Temporal Acceleration. Temporal Accleration wins in buffing matches one of the best buffers in the game is the Wilder. so I would think Wilder 20/Favored Soul 20. If going to prestige class I would recommend doing it on the favored soul side. The key to this build is the wild surged buffs which can get nasty as well as Expanded Knowledge: Dispelling Buffer. This is the Charisma Side of it. The downsides is limited versitility. You are building him with the purpose of a buffer tank with the Wilder and Favored Soul being excellent buffers. Favored Soul can take care of the healing and other spells as well as some more of the buffing. See this thread for the way to make wilders kick ass buffers. HERE (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=518120)
obrysii 11-09-05, 12:12 AM	I've found a Human (Lich) Dread Necromancer 20/Warmage 5/Sandshaper 8/Fiend-Blooded 7 works nicely. At level 20, you'll have an absurd number of spells per day, at least 720hd of undead to control, and be able to heal yourself and your undead using Mass Harm
tsuyoshikentsu 11-09-05, 01:37 AM	Maybe a Ranger 20//Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Tempest 10/Dervish 5?
Zathyr 11-09-05, 01:49 AM	Maybe a Ranger 20//Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Tempest 10/Dervish 5? I'm guessing you mean Dervish 10/Tempest 5 at the end there? I'd be far more tempted to use Scout instead of Ranger..
Grizzled Gryphon 11-09-05, 01:57 AM	Jandor1: that is a lovely idea... I like it! The favored Soul/ Warmage, that is. I am not so keen on the cleric archer idea, though. (although, I have this crazy image of him healing comrades in combat by shooting them with arrows...) Lets see, the Psion/ Wizard IS a nice idea... I could go with Thrallherd on the psion side, and effigy master on the wizard side. Yes, this has been very helpful, thanks. Serow#R: That is a nice combo, isn't it? However, i do kinda agree with World Savers Inc., though. Hmm, I have always liked the Psychic Warrior, though... Tsuyoshikentsu: What is the Supermount? Sounds interesting, as I do have a soft spot in my heart for the Pally... Batstek: Well, same question to you... Vaelan: Very interesting ideas you have there, I will have to check them out. Neb Rybel: Who said anything about doing everything? I want an interesting character, not one with levels in fifty classes, and 60 special abilities. I find those types just bog down play. I try to specialize in something. I do like the pally idea you have, there. World Savers Inc.: I have seen some of the Wilder optimizations, and they are quite impressive. Orbrysii: I don't recall seeing the Dread Necromancer in any of the books I mentioned as having. I am pretty sure it isn't, and if so, I really can't use it. That is why I stated that in the first post.
X-Codes 11-09-05, 02:23 AM	Bard 20 | Paladin 2/Fighter 2/Rogue 4/Spellsword 1/Sublime Chord 2/Eldrich Knight 9 (taking one level of Eldrich Knight before entering the Sublime Chord class, granting full spellcasting). Race can really be anything. Star Elf would be good for the charisma buff. You might also want to use the Paladin of Freedom variant from UA to save yourself a feat. Definately pick up Words of Creation. You have +18 BAB and with Bardsong active you could have a +9 bonus to attacks and damages on top of that. Favored Soul 20 | Paladin 5/Pious Templar 4/Divine Crusader 1/Fist of Raziel 10 Again, race can really be anything. Star Elf is a strong choice again, but Orog is also notable if LA buyoff is allowed. Archivist 3/Church Inquisitor 4/Divine Champion 4/Contemplative 6/Sacred Exorcist 3 | Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5 Sun Elf is preferred here with Human coming a close second. Thankfully you get a LOT of bonus metamagic feats, so Divine Metamagic could be taken once or twice for persistent and/or twin. Until then, this is your uberblaster. Ninja 20 | Warlock 4/Ranger 3/Rogue 3/Shadowdancer 10 Here, Human is actually preferred. The bonus feat and skills will help this character get all the required abilities as soon as he can. He will be using Greater Manyshot as much as he can, and Zen Archery might also be a good menu item in the case of the stat rolls being unable to handle the MAD.
Grizzled Gryphon 11-09-05, 03:13 AM	Well, don't worry about MAD, as my DM has an, shall we say, interesting mode of stat rolling. He has us roll 4D8, and drop the lowest... Also, we don't have the UA available, so anything out of that is out. I should ahve asked this before, but if you all would be so kind as to list where all the classes are for your build, that would be muchly appreciated. Also, please keep in mind that there are 2 characters being built here, so if there are two that really work together nicely, please post them.
X-Codes 11-09-05, 03:19 AM	Well, don't worry about MAD, as my DM has an, shall we say, interesting mode of stat rolling. He has us roll 4D8, and drop the lowest... Also, we don't have the UA available, so anything out of that is out. I should ahve asked this before, but if you all would be so kind as to list where all the classes are for your build, that would be muchly appreciated. That doesn't make sense, the rules for Gestalt characters are IN UA. If it isn't noted below, it's in the PHB or DMG. Anyway... here goes for the rest of the stuff: Spellsword: CWar. You can use something else, I just threw that in for filler. Sublime Chord: CArc Favored Soul: CDiv Pious Templar: CDiv Divine Crusader: CDiv Fist of Raziel: BoED Archivist: Heroes of Horror, new book. Sacred Exorcist: CDiv Church Inquisitor: CDiv Divine Champion: PGtF (but very non-Faerun specific) Contemplative: CDiv Incantatrix: PGtF (again, very non-Faerun specific) Ninja: CAdv Warlock: CArc
tsuyoshikentsu 11-09-05, 03:32 AM	Supermount is a normal build using certain classes and feats that let you have a Celestial Dragon Animal Companion Mount with al of the highest-level abilities of an Animal Companion AND a Mount. In gestalt, if you have a nice GM, that becomes a Celestial Stiched-Flesh Dragon Familiar Animal Companion Mount. Here's a fun one: Stoutheart Halfling Sorcerer 18/Paladin 2//Paladin 6/Beastmaster 1/Wild Plains Outrider 2/Halfling Outrider 10/Arcane Hierophant 1. TakeDevoted Tracker, Dragon Mount, Celestial Mount and Spell-Stictched Familiar to get the thing to work. If you have one of those fun DMs that lets you gestalt PrCs together, replace five levels of Sorcerer with Alienist. Then you get to add Pseudonatural as well. And yes, I did mean Dervish 10/Tempest 5. I was tired when I wrote that.
Grizzled Gryphon 11-09-05, 03:36 AM	I know, we don't have the UA anymore, but the DM and I remember all the info about gestalt, so we still use it.
tsuyoshikentsu 11-09-05, 03:41 AM	He has us roll 4D8, and drop the lowest... WHY IS IT THAT I NEVER GET DMS LIKE THIS?!?!
Squirrelloid 11-09-05, 04:11 AM	Druid 20/Wiz(PrCed as appropriate) 20 - what cant you do that you'd care about? Seriously. Note on a previous build: Archivist/Wizard is silly - Archivist can get all S/W spells a number of ways (including scrolls made by a wizard using Alternate Source Spell, a geomancer casting them as divine, etc... Archivists can learn any divine spell, not any spell off a divine spell list, so if the scroll is scribed as divine, he can learn it.) Of course, if you had access to do it, the logical extrapolation for the best gestalt build ever is Artificer19/Marshal1/Archivist20. For the build that can do everything, twice. Its so much broken it makes my head hurt. (Make it even better...(?) by substituting some of that artificer for Nanobot boy - the exemplar - ow my head)
NineInchNall 11-09-05, 11:47 AM	WHY IS IT THAT I NEVER GET DMS LIKE THIS?!?! Well, because most of the time they are the result of PCs that can't hold their own in combat without that kind of boost.
the_narrator 11-09-05, 12:03 PM	you say you need a tank, healer, and rogue? fighter//cleric? rogue//cleric? fighter/rogue//cleric? favored soul//rogue? i've alway wanted to do something like fighter/kensai//warmage, just for the hell of it.
Medicelious-Melharmonac 11-09-05, 12:13 PM	Cleric can tank as well as a Fighter at high levels with buffs. Cleric Side: Cleric 3 / Divine Inquisitor 3 / Seeker of Misty Isle 4 / Contemplative 8 / Heirophant 1 / Saint (+2) Ninja Side: Ninja 8 / Shadow Dancer 10 Saint (+2) You need the following feats: 1) Extend Spell (Planning Domain) 1) Dodge 3) Mobility 6) Power Attack 9) Combat Reflexes 12) Persistent Spell 15) DM(P) 18) Chain Spell Heirophant Special: Divine Reach If you are allowed Feat Rogue from UA. Take 8 Levels of Feat Rogue and forgoe the SA damage for Bonus Feats.
reytheist 11-09-05, 12:36 PM	I just thought I'd pimp the Great Gestalt Guide. There's lots of builds and ideas there (as well as the text for Gestalting, as UA is considered OGL). Link's in the sig. I like something like the Cleric 20//Rogue19/Heirophant one from the list. Cleric//Rogue is a great base, using the Travel and Trickery domains. Talk about useful and fun. You could decide to be more roguely, and go with Rogue PrCs, or improve your divine abilities with PRCs on that site. Tumbling in and healing, going invisible and sneak attacking at full die progression with 3/4 BAB (before buffing). All the while with full spell casting. That's good times right there.
Zathyr 11-09-05, 01:48 PM	Here's a fun one: Stoutheart Halfling Sorcerer 18/Paladin 2//Paladin 6/Beastmaster 1/Wild Plains Outrider 2/Halfling Outrider 10/Arcane Hierophant 1. If the GM's crazy enough to allow Arcane Hierophant in a gestalt game, take that bad boy to 10! By the normal gestalt rules, though, it wouldn't be allowed since it's one of those "combination of two classes" classes.
tsuyoshikentsu 11-09-05, 09:39 PM	If the GM's crazy enough to allow Arcane Hierophant in a gestalt game, take that bad boy to 10! By the normal gestalt rules, though, it wouldn't be allowed since it's one of those "combination of two classes" classes. I'd argue that one level should be allowed. Or maybe tweaked so that it doesn't have dual caster progression. (Something like +5/+5 instead of +10/+10.)
SoulGamit 11-09-05, 10:50 PM	Ranger 18 / Paladin 11 / Beast Master 1 / Halfling Outrider 10 Would be the most powerful gesalt build I can think of. You'll get an animal companion that is epic before you. Basically, as long as you choose a semi-decent mount (a dragon comes to mind) it'll be able to anihalate things well above twice your CR... mostly because it'll be more then twice your ECL. You'll have an animal companion as a 22nd level druid and a 21st level paladin. You'll get at least +20 HD, not even counting your effective druid and paladin level above 20, as your DM may limit you to an effective level of 20 until your actually epic. Your paladin levels will give you some healing abilities. Just carry around a wand of cure x wounds. If you can use LA buyoff, I'm a fan of the half-fey or saint templates. Otherwise, don't touch anything with LA. As for what mount you should choose and what feats you and it should get, I have no idea. I wander if using Ashworm Dragoon would yield a higher amount of HD... My ratio of ranger and paladin is also probably off a lil. Sorry if it is, I'm not too familier with gesalts. If your DM actually allows this build... I'd REALLY hate to see what's gonna be on the other side of the table. Perhaps punpun... with his greatest minions, the Prime Minister of Smack and the Uber Charger... all in gesalt form.
World Savers Inc. 11-10-05, 12:09 AM	Paladin of Freedom 4/Bard 16// Bard 4/Marshal 1/Rogue2/Warchanter 3/Seeker of the Song 10, or Sublime Cord 2/Virtouso 8 or even Warchanter 10/Pious Templar 1/Sublime Cord 2/ OR Warchanter 10/Half Elf Paragon 3 Play a half elf for the Level One Half Elf Bard Subsititution Level found in the Races of the Wild. This will cover your face problems, your rogue problems, bards can heal with the UMD as well as own spells. Tank with Divine Might and Snowflake Wardance (frostburn)
Jandor1 11-10-05, 12:48 AM	something i've always liked for flavor, and it works well as a tank, is teh warlock 20|fighter 6/blackguard 4/thrall of demogorgon 10 is nice. born of demons, and servent to their prince! the dual actions that thrall gets doesn't hurt, especially not when you are shooting 10d6 eldritch blasts that hit AoE and deal negative levels... for really fun evil cheese, if you're GM is being fun, try this: fighter 6/monk 2/ blackguard 3/lifedrinker 9|vampire 8/vampire lord 10/ ??? 2 is fun fun fun. we ruled that players can take LA up one side of the gestalt; as you can see, it makes for some good cheese. the fun part about the vampire lord build, aside from being a vampire lord, is you'll have some good grapple feats and a decent attack bonus, plus Cha to saves (nice for those fort saves you might have to make (disintigrate, anyone?) not to mention the ability to add like +40 or something equally rediculous to your str every day if you have enough peons around (take leadership; have a coven of goths whose blood you suck to get stronger!) anywho... keep in mind under the normal gestalt rules you can only have 1 PRC at any time on either side of the build (i.e. no incantatrix//contemplative levels; gotta be wizard//contemplative or incantatrix//cleric). That nerfs you somewhat, but not enough to really matter. finally... Psion/Wilder. more. powerpoints. than. an elder brain. :D
tsuyoshikentsu 11-10-05, 01:28 AM	Ranger 18 / Paladin 11 / Beast Master 1 / Halfling Outrider 10 I'm 99% sure my build is more powerful than this one. You would do this Ranger 18/Paladin 2//Paladin 9/Beastmaster 1/Halfling Outrider 10, in no partucular order?
SoulGamit 11-10-05, 01:51 AM	In all honesty, I don't even know what your build is so I can't really compair. I also think I'm thinking of animal lord, not beast master, sorry. I allways get those 2 confused. As for the order, no. assuming I understand the rules for gesalts correctly It'd go like this: Ranger 5 / Paladin 5 (level 5) Ranger 6 / Paladin 5 / Animal Lord 1 (level 6) Ranger 6 / Paladin 7 / Animal Lord 1 / Halfling Outrider 2 (Level 8) Ranger 14 / Paladin 7 / Animal Lord 1 / Halfling Outrider 10 (Level 16) Ranger 18 / Paladin 11 / Beast Master 1 / Halfling Outrider 10 (Level 20) Here's an interesting thought though, isn't there a rule that disallows PrCs that advance the abilities of 2 classes at once, like mystic theurge. If so, then isn't halfling outrider illegal? A better build might replace those levels with ashworm dragoon, and many of the ranger levels with paladin. Actually, I'd lower the level of ranger by 1 or 2 and increase the level of paladin by 1 or 2, so your mount can stay around for a full 24 hours. Paladin 16 / Ranger 13 / Animal Lord 1 / Ashworm Dragoon 10 I'm sure you could tweak the paladin and ranger levels to get more out of it, but I don't feel like checking the numbers atm so this is all off the top of my head. Of course, this build is listed in no peticular order. My first 12 levels would probably be in paladin / whatever, then after that ranger.
tsuyoshikentsu 11-10-05, 02:10 AM	Okay, your progression confuses the #$% outta me. You take two class levels at a time, using the best attributes of each. You cannot combine two PrCs, and class combos are banned. Is this progression right? Pal//Rgr Pal//Rgr Pal//Rgr Pal//Rgr Pal//Rgr AmL//Rgr HOR//Pal HOR//Pal HOR//Rgr HOR//Rgr HOR//Rgr HOR//Rgr HOR//Rgr HOR//Rgr HOR//Rgr HOR//Rgr Pal//Rgr Pal//Rgr Pal//Rgr Mine's still better, then.
Grizzled Gryphon 11-21-05, 10:11 PM	:bump:
Iaimeki 11-22-05, 12:29 AM	I'm not going to give a specific build, because thinking about most gestalt combination makes my head hurt. Anyway, in gestalt, unlike normal builds, simplicity often _is_ power. Since you can't gestalt one PrC against another, the best gestalts tend to involve base classes that are worth taking to 20th level (while the other side takes PrCs). The other major general principle of gestalt construction is that high ability scores, bonus feats, and classes that grant high skills/level are more valuable because abilities, feats, and skills don't increase for gestalt characters. Because some things don't stack (BAB, favored saves, skills), you want cover the weaknesses of one class with the strengths of the other. Finally, since casters own at high levels, one side of a gestalt should _always_ have full casting or manifesting: with another class covering their weaknesses, casters have no liabilities. Classes worth taking to level 20: Druid: gestalts well with practically anything. Superior class features, good statistics, and full casting. Rogue: skills, decent class features, and bonus feats/special abilities. Scout: skills, good class features, and bonus feats. Ranger: full BAB, saves, bonus feats, skills, and some decent class features. Fighter: feats and full BAB. Useful only for heavy combat builds. Bard: skills, saves, decent class features, some casting. Monk: feats, saves, decent class features. Monk class features shine a lot more when backed up with full-casting on the other side, but taking 20 levels is still questionable. Psychic warrior: manifesting, bonus feats. Pick your favorite single-class build, pick one of the above classes that synergizes with it, and you'll get a strong gestalt character.
World Savers Inc. 11-22-05, 01:20 AM	Wilder can be better than Psywarrior to level 20 depending on what you want to do. Wilder can tank better than a PsyWarrior due to Temporal Acceleration and fully Wild Surge Buffs. taking on the other side Charisma enhancing special abilities or spellcasting, or better melee stuff preferably charisma based. can be the face man and tank. Wilder gets some good skills.
Iaimeki 11-22-05, 01:45 AM	Wilder can be better than Psywarrior to level 20 depending on what you want to do. Wilder can tank better than a PsyWarrior due to Temporal Acceleration and fully Wild Surge Buffs. taking on the other side Charisma enhancing special abilities or spellcasting, or better melee stuff preferably charisma based. can be the face man and tank. Wilder gets some good skills. Wilder's manifesting is definitely better, but its strongest class feature (wild surge) is limited by the fact that you don't want to risk more than a certain chance of dazing yourself. Surging euphoria is nice, but hardly worth the levels it takes to get it. Thus, wilder is a class you want to PrC out of, and should put on the first side of your gestalt build.
Grizzled Gryphon 11-22-05, 02:36 AM	Actually, under the Gestalt option, you take the best of EACH save, not the best set of saves. thus a class with good will and ref combined with a class with good fort gives you all good saves. I am not entirely sure this is what you meant, Iaimeki, but in case it was, I thought I should clarify that for ya. Also, I think other classes are good for gestalt, too. For example, the hexblade is a good addition to any class. So is the Warlock. Say, what does everyone think of a Swashbuckler/ Wizard or Psion? I can see some good stuff, here. There are some very good synergies between these two. Hmm, a Swashbuckler/ Warmage might be even nicer than the wizard, as he then can wear armor. Of course, the Swashbuckler/Psion can already wear whatever armor the swashbuckler can. It seems to me, though, that the Fighter/ Psychic Warrior would be just wrong, due to all those feats. Wow, a human would have 6 feats at 2nd level!! That is a little crazy. Hmm, given the books I have (see my sig), I came up with a 'most feats possible' build, once, but that was without the gestalt option. That really would change things. With the build I did, I got 20 at level 20. That is with no PrC, either. I don't know if any give you bonus feats. I don't THINK any of the ones in the books I have do, anyway. I think it would be quite easy to surpass that, though.
tsuyoshikentsu 11-22-05, 02:54 AM	I think the record is 43 at 20. So add another 11 from Fighter 20... eek.
World Savers Inc. 11-22-05, 03:02 AM	some people actually did the math on this one and it still cost effective to Wild Surge fully until 20th level. second if you Wild Surge fully on your buffs in the telescoping temporal acceleration rounds, you can deal with a daze WITHOUT it really effecting you to any great degree at all. In that you will be dazed in the next Temporal Acceleration Round but if you got more Temporal Accelaration Rounds then dazing matters not. Fully Wild Surging your buffs with the power Dispelling Buffer will make any dispel except for Mordekainen's Disjunction USELESS against you. and you can defend against that. Third there is a divine spell called Favored of Ilmater which makes you IMMUNE to Psychic Evnervation, so no daze for you. Fourth. Wilder//Favoured Soul. Buff Master 2000. telscoping temporal accelaration rounds is something that happens when you augment Temporal Acceleration for two rounds as a swift action. than in your first temporal acceleration round you augment Temporal Acceleration for two rounds as a swift action. you keep doing this until you have all of your buffs up and running. and then go to town. At which point dazes are taken care of. Fifth. Daze can be taken care of by a feat in Lords of Madness which allows you to recover in a move equiv action. Quick Recovery i htink it is called. you want to single class Wilder on one side to get hte +6 Wild Surge and the full Surging Euphoria. and prestige on the other side. at multiple places in this board i have posted what looks like to my untrained eye as a decent Gestalt build for a Wilder and favoured soul. only the levels are there not the build itself. Not real compentant or patient for things like that. Here is the link to the battle between Wilder and Psy Warrior. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=7498267)
Iaimeki 11-22-05, 12:43 PM	Actually, under the Gestalt option, you take the best of EACH save, not the best set of saves. thus a class with good will and ref combined with a class with good fort gives you all good saves. I am not entirely sure this is what you meant, Iaimeki, but in case it was, I thought I should clarify that for ya. Also, I think other classes are good for gestalt, too. For example, the hexblade is a good addition to any class. So is the Warlock. Say, what does everyone think of a Swashbuckler/ Wizard or Psion? I can see some good stuff, here. There are some very good synergies between these two. Hmm, a Swashbuckler/ Warmage might be even nicer than the wizard, as he then can wear armor. Of course, the Swashbuckler/Psion can already wear whatever armor the swashbuckler can. About the saves: that's what I meant. Hexblade is a dip class. After 3rd level, what do you get? A familiar, one of the most useless class abilities in the core? 4th-level arcane casting? Why bother, when you can have full arcane casting on the other side of a gestalt? Useless bonus feats? Hexblade is just a weak class, and not worth five levels except under unusual circumstances, much less 20. Swashbuckler is a dip class, for insightful strike. What do the upper levels of swashbuckler get that can't be simulated using magic items or rogue and rogue PrCs? Warlock's invocations and eldritch blast can be advanced by PrCs. The only other worthwhile class features above 4th-level are imbue item and damage reduction. While useful, neither class feature compensates for losing the benefit of PrCs. Warmage is a terrible class period. It's a full caster without any of the spells that make casters good and no useful abilities. Favored soul is another terrible class, with its spellcasting key ability split up between Wis and Cha, no turning, and useless class features. What self-respecting 17th-level full caster, especially in gestalt, can't manage a way to fly? With Quick Recovery, wilder is a more viable option, though you still lose the power points from enervating and the swift action/power points for hustle if you want to full attack.
World Savers Inc. 11-22-05, 01:14 PM	there are items to grant flight. Favoured Soul is good in the spontaenus department for encounters you have not prepared for. Wis is used ONLY for DC's not bonus spells. It depends on what you are making him for. a buffer/healer Favoured Soul does not need any wisdom what so ever. Cha determines level of spells and bonus spells. Turn Undead can be got through Prestige Classes such as Prestige Paladin or Sacred Exorcist. and ALL good saves. Wilder 20//Favoured Soul 5/Church Inquistor 5/Sacred Exorcist 3/Prestige Paladin 3/Contemplative 1/Pious Templar 1/ Divine Oracle 2. this is a fine gestalt build for the favored soul. it has synergy bonus with Divine Grace. immunity to charms and compulsions. Turn Undead for the Divine Metamagic cheese. Evasion in any armor. Mettle. 3 Domains as a Favoured Soul. Aura of Courage. This build is really about getting all your buffs in the first round of combat at any time or place. I went with the Favoured Soul because of the Spontaneus casting. Whether or not you know what is coming you are prepared for it.
AramilWindwalker 11-22-05, 05:47 PM	does he prohibit dual progressing classes as well? even so, you can fill the fighter/rogue/healer slot with Ninja20/cleric 20(insert PrCs to taste, I like skullclan hunter(mini's HB) but you don't have that do you...)you have 3 good saves, 3/4 bab evasion, 9th level spells(hello implosion)and many other things (divine metamagic hello)) or for pure sickly cheesyness Druid 20/cleric 20(insert Prcs to taste) 2x 9th level divine casting, Divine metamagic, wildshape, a good companion, and yep all you really need, but your weak spot is that ref save. oh well have fun....
Jandor1 11-22-05, 06:49 PM	wizard 5/incantatrix 10/archmage 5 | archivist 20. yowzah.