A good Savage Species race for a rogue [Archive] - Wizards Community

A good Savage Species race for a rogue [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BlueOgre
03-02-05, 08:53 AM Hi all,

I am planning to play rogue in our next campaign and I have Savage Species book available. The rogue would be built around Spring Attack feat (or Fly-by attack) and to do a lot of meleeing. So far I have considered simply taking orc as a race. Low starting ECL would be good, since I would like to have lots of skill points and sneak attack. Otherwise I have around 12-15 levels to design with.

Any ideas?
lostone
03-02-05, 09:10 AM Lots of good choices in the Anthropomorphic template with varying ECLs, or just look through the racial progression classes, anything with high dexterity (Fey types are good for that usually). I don't have the book with me or I'd get more specific.
lokkesmadr
03-02-05, 09:17 AM Have you considered Fey'ri (Races of Faerun)? A +2 LA gets you +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Con, 40' fly speed with poor manouverability, Darkvision, Alter Self as a spell like ability useable at will and a few demonic spell-like abilities.

And, of course, there's Pixies... Particularly Pixies with the Improved Flight feat (and thus, perfect manouverability)
BlueOgre
03-02-05, 09:42 AM Fey'ri seems quite nice, but we play 3.0 and RoF is 3.5. Pixie is rather good, but starting ECL 5 is rather a lot, though I would get quite a lot in exchange.

Anthropomorphic animals have many good choices, but there always is low Str or higher ECL and I would like to avoid both. I would like the character to hit rather consistently, so I looked mainly small ones.
lostone
03-02-05, 10:07 AM You said you're going to play a rogue. Ignore strength, go for max dexterity and weapon finesse. When you sneak attack strength damage is pretty pointless for a straight rogue.
carnivore
03-02-05, 10:10 AM Pixie :dancin: go Pixie :cheer:
Warchicken
03-02-05, 01:36 PM Have you thought about using the Winged Template?
You get +4 Dex, +2 Wis, all with LA+2
As long as your Dex is over 17 you have Fly (Base +20 ft) Perfect

It worked pretty nicely in a monsters only game my DM ran once. I had a Winged Wood Elf Fighter based around being an uber archer. :thinks:
PhaedrusXY
03-02-05, 04:31 PM I was browsing through my Fiend Folio the other day, and thought that the Mongrelfolk would make a great race for a combat oriented rogue. They get +4 Con and -4 Cha, have rogue as a favored class, are LA +0, and can use any magic items that are exclusive to any humanoid race as if they were a member of that race. They also get a bonus on emulating other races using UMD. They'd also be fun to roleplay, as they look messed up and most people wouldn't recognize their race. The picture reminds me of Sloth from the goonies.

The Skulk is a good form for a sneaky rogue, with their high racial bonuses to Hide and Move Silently. Of course, you can always Alter Self into one to get those, and play a more combat ready race instead.
Paradisio
03-02-05, 04:52 PM Play an awakened twig
BlueOgre
03-03-05, 03:39 AM You said you're going to play a rogue. Ignore strength, go for max dexterity and weapon finesse. When you sneak attack strength damage is pretty pointless for a straight rogue.

Yes, it seems to me too, that I am trying to do a bit too much with one character. So I will give up Str.

A kind of low LA (maybe max +2), high Dex, with Weapon finesse and Spring Attack would be nice. Small size with wings would help too.

I now looked at the winged template too. It seems rather good. I am not sure about the rules, but if I take the Winged template for example with human, could I get (8+Int bonus)*4 as skill points at first level?
BlueOgre
03-03-05, 04:00 AM I was browsing through my Fiend Folio the other day, and thought that the Mongrelfolk would make a great race for a combat oriented rogue. They get +4 Con and -4 Cha, have rogue as a favored class, are LA +0, and can use any magic items that are exclusive to any humanoid race as if they were a member of that race. They also get a bonus on emulating other races using UMD. They'd also be fun to roleplay, as they look messed up and most people wouldn't recognize their race. The picture reminds me of Sloth from the goonies.

The Skulk is a good form for a sneaky rogue, with their high racial bonuses to Hide and Move Silently. Of course, you can always Alter Self into one to get those, and play a more combat ready race instead.

I do not know exactly how to use Fiend Folio races. Do you just look at Abilities and determine there their bonuses? Skulk would be then +4 Dex, -2 Wis, -4 Cha with LA+2.

I do not know about Skulk, but Mongrelfolk seems pretty good for melee rogue.
zivpeled
03-03-05, 04:12 AM you dont need find folio for the skulk and the mongrol you got them both in races of destiny under other races and as much as i remember (dont have the book in front of me) they have there the progresion of those two.

if you go fly-by-atack then considere the scount insted of the rouge .
the skirmish is better if you plan to be in melle most of the time.
PhaedrusXY
03-03-05, 04:12 AM I do not know exactly how to use Fiend Folio races. Do you just look at Abilities and determine there their bonuses? Skulk would be then +4 Dex, -2 Wis, -4 Cha with LA+2.

I do not know about Skulk, but Mongrelfolk seems pretty good for melee rogue.It was published before they started printing the ability score adjustments separately for each monster. You just figure out what the adjustments should be based on how the scores given differ. Assume each score starts as a 10 or 11 before racial adjustments, and that racial adjustments are always even.

Also note that the level adjustments listed in the stat blocks of some of the monsters in the Fiend Folio are not correct. If you look later on in the description of the creature, it will give examples which contradict the given Level Adjustment. Basically, some of the authors were confused about the difference between Level Adjustment and ECL.

At the end of the listing for each creature, it gives an example of what that creature with one level of a class would be equivalent to in class levels. Use that value to figure out what the correct LA is for that creature. For example, if a monster has 3 racial hit dice and at the end it says that that creature with one level of fighter would be equal to a "normal" 7th level character, then the correct level adjustment for that creature is 3. (ECL = racial hit dice + class levels + level adjustment)
BlueOgre
03-03-05, 04:37 AM It was published before they started printing the ability score adjustments separately for each monster. You just figure out what the adjustments should be based on how the scores given differ. Assume each score starts as a 10 or 11 before racial adjustments, and that racial adjustments are always even.

Also note that the level adjustments listed in the stat blocks of some of the monsters in the Fiend Folio are not correct. If you look later on in the description of the creature, it will give examples which contradict the given Level Adjustment. Basically, some of the authors were confused about the difference between Level Adjustment and ECL.

At the end of the listing for each creature, it gives an example of what that creature with one level of a class would be equivalent to in class levels. Use that value to figure out what the correct LA is for that creature. For example, if a monster has 3 racial hit dice and at the end it says that that creature with one level of fighter would be equal to a "normal" 7th level character, then the correct level adjustment for that creature is 3. (ECL = racial hit dice + class levels + level adjustment)

Ok, but would Mongrelfolk have then also -2 Int, since it has Int 9? It seems rather good with Winged template added totaling +4 Dex, +4 Con, -2 Int, +2 Wis, -4 Cha and LA+2. If I also get that (8+Int bonus)*4 skill points at first level, I think I will do that.
PhaedrusXY
03-03-05, 04:45 AM Ok, but would Mongrelfolk have then also -2 Int, since it has Int 9? It seems rather good with Winged template added totaling +4 Dex, +4 Con, -2 Int, +2 Wis, -4 Cha and LA+2. If I also get that (8+Int bonus)*4 skill points at first level, I think I will do that.Ok, I'm home from work now. The Mongrelfolk in the Fiend Folio would have ability score adjustments of +4 Con, -2 Int, -4 Cha. The Winged Template (from Savage Species) adds +4 Dex, +2 Wis, wings, and changes your type to Winged Humanoid. It would also change your favored class to Fighter. You'd have a +2 LA. Your skill points would be determined by what class you pick, since the mongrelfolk only has 1 racial hit die, which is replaced by class hit die. Your Fly speed would be 50 with manuverabilty determined by your Dex on the chart in SS.

I'm not convinced the Winged template is worth a +2 LA myself... but it's your character. ;)
LordOfHavoc
03-03-05, 04:50 AM slap the Half-fey template (Feind Folio I think) on a whisper gnome u can move uber-quiet over land or through the air. Whisper Gnomes are a steal at LA 0 and the Half Fey template gives u wings and a bunch of cool SLA's all for an LA +2.
Snicker-Snack
03-03-05, 04:56 AM One of my favorites races from Fiend Folio is the Shadar Kai: It has 3 fey HD and a +1 LA, but it gets 1d6 SA, Hide in Plain Sight, + 6 dex, +10 to hide in dark or shadowy conditions, and free EWP:Spiked Chain.

One of the problems of playing it is it's annoying Shadow Curse, but at your level, it can easily be overcome.
Null and Void
03-03-05, 05:18 AM You're small, so while you don't do as much damage, you hit more often. Not doing much initial damage is no big deal anyway. I've successfully played tiny rouges (the Grig or Imp); the sneak attack was good enough. Trying to find a diminutive creature that will work for Rouge next.

What makes a Pixie wonderful?

-4 strength (as if you need it)
+8 Dex (18+8=26 for a +8 Modifier! at level 1!)
+6 Int (Massive skill points here especially at first level)
+4 Wis (MANY rogue skills use Wis)
+6 Cha (Many Rogue skill also use Cha)

These skill bonuses are perfect for rouge.

Damage reduction 10/cold iron (ignoring first the 10 damage in melee is most useful. Ignoring the first 10 damage in ANY situation is most useful!)

Low light Vision (while it may not seem like a big deal a rogue can sure make use of it)

Nice spell like abilities at 1/day: lesser confuse, dancing lights, detect good/law/thoughts/evil, dispel magic, entangle, permanent image, polymorph.

Flight: 60 (Good) (feats can easily take it to perfect)

Bonus feat: Dodge (every bit helps)

Natural Armor +1 (every bit helps)

Special Arrows (EX):
- Memory loss (will negates, or lose memory). Remembers class, skills, languages, abilities, but forgets everything else until effected by a heal spell, or memory restoration via limited wish/wish/miracle
-Sleep: regardless of hit die must succeed on save or effected as if by the sleep spell.

The best thing: Greater Invisibility active at ALL times even when attacking, unless you suppress it (free action), you can then resume it (free action). This is a supernatural ability, so as far as I understand it Dispel Magic has no effect.

With a 26 Dex score you start out with an AC of 10+8(Dex)+1 (Natural armor)+1(size)+1(padded armor)=21

Padded armor is the only armor with as high as a max Dex bonus (+8) until you get to magic armors. Starting out with anything more then that is useless because you lose Dex bonus to AC. There is little worry about losing your Dex bonus because you will more then likely NEVER be caught off guard on account of your Greater Invisibility. With such a high Dex score you will more then likely be the one with the highest initiative roll.

Ultimate Rouge race? The only problem is that the level adjustment is +4, but considering the VAST amount of special abilities you get, and considering that they remain useful through out the life of the character, it is more then worth it.
BlueOgre
03-03-05, 06:31 AM I too think pixie might well be the ultimate rogue race. It just happens I have seen so many pixie assasins and wood elf archers, that I want to do something new.

I feel it would be good to be able to fly naturally in our campaign. It seems to take at least two levels to be able to fly, so I can get +4 Dex as compensation with Winged template. I also want to have quite a lot of levels for prestige classes.

So my rogue will be a mongrelfolk with a winged template. Thanks everyone :)
Otto the Bugbear
03-03-05, 07:00 AM :(

No bugbear? :(

You make me sad. :(

Cheers

Otto ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BlueOgre 03-02-05, 08:53 AM	Hi all, I am planning to play rogue in our next campaign and I have Savage Species book available. The rogue would be built around Spring Attack feat (or Fly-by attack) and to do a lot of meleeing. So far I have considered simply taking orc as a race. Low starting ECL would be good, since I would like to have lots of skill points and sneak attack. Otherwise I have around 12-15 levels to design with. Any ideas?
lostone 03-02-05, 09:10 AM	Lots of good choices in the Anthropomorphic template with varying ECLs, or just look through the racial progression classes, anything with high dexterity (Fey types are good for that usually). I don't have the book with me or I'd get more specific.
lokkesmadr 03-02-05, 09:17 AM	Have you considered Fey'ri (Races of Faerun)? A +2 LA gets you +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Con, 40' fly speed with poor manouverability, Darkvision, Alter Self as a spell like ability useable at will and a few demonic spell-like abilities. And, of course, there's Pixies... Particularly Pixies with the Improved Flight feat (and thus, perfect manouverability)
BlueOgre 03-02-05, 09:42 AM	Fey'ri seems quite nice, but we play 3.0 and RoF is 3.5. Pixie is rather good, but starting ECL 5 is rather a lot, though I would get quite a lot in exchange. Anthropomorphic animals have many good choices, but there always is low Str or higher ECL and I would like to avoid both. I would like the character to hit rather consistently, so I looked mainly small ones.
lostone 03-02-05, 10:07 AM	You said you're going to play a rogue. Ignore strength, go for max dexterity and weapon finesse. When you sneak attack strength damage is pretty pointless for a straight rogue.
carnivore 03-02-05, 10:10 AM	Pixie :dancin: go Pixie :cheer:
Warchicken 03-02-05, 01:36 PM	Have you thought about using the Winged Template? You get +4 Dex, +2 Wis, all with LA+2 As long as your Dex is over 17 you have Fly (Base +20 ft) Perfect It worked pretty nicely in a monsters only game my DM ran once. I had a Winged Wood Elf Fighter based around being an uber archer. :thinks:
PhaedrusXY 03-02-05, 04:31 PM	I was browsing through my Fiend Folio the other day, and thought that the Mongrelfolk would make a great race for a combat oriented rogue. They get +4 Con and -4 Cha, have rogue as a favored class, are LA +0, and can use any magic items that are exclusive to any humanoid race as if they were a member of that race. They also get a bonus on emulating other races using UMD. They'd also be fun to roleplay, as they look messed up and most people wouldn't recognize their race. The picture reminds me of Sloth from the goonies. The Skulk is a good form for a sneaky rogue, with their high racial bonuses to Hide and Move Silently. Of course, you can always Alter Self into one to get those, and play a more combat ready race instead.
Paradisio 03-02-05, 04:52 PM	Play an awakened twig
BlueOgre 03-03-05, 03:39 AM	You said you're going to play a rogue. Ignore strength, go for max dexterity and weapon finesse. When you sneak attack strength damage is pretty pointless for a straight rogue. Yes, it seems to me too, that I am trying to do a bit too much with one character. So I will give up Str. A kind of low LA (maybe max +2), high Dex, with Weapon finesse and Spring Attack would be nice. Small size with wings would help too. I now looked at the winged template too. It seems rather good. I am not sure about the rules, but if I take the Winged template for example with human, could I get (8+Int bonus)*4 as skill points at first level?
BlueOgre 03-03-05, 04:00 AM	I was browsing through my Fiend Folio the other day, and thought that the Mongrelfolk would make a great race for a combat oriented rogue. They get +4 Con and -4 Cha, have rogue as a favored class, are LA +0, and can use any magic items that are exclusive to any humanoid race as if they were a member of that race. They also get a bonus on emulating other races using UMD. They'd also be fun to roleplay, as they look messed up and most people wouldn't recognize their race. The picture reminds me of Sloth from the goonies. The Skulk is a good form for a sneaky rogue, with their high racial bonuses to Hide and Move Silently. Of course, you can always Alter Self into one to get those, and play a more combat ready race instead. I do not know exactly how to use Fiend Folio races. Do you just look at Abilities and determine there their bonuses? Skulk would be then +4 Dex, -2 Wis, -4 Cha with LA+2. I do not know about Skulk, but Mongrelfolk seems pretty good for melee rogue.
zivpeled 03-03-05, 04:12 AM	you dont need find folio for the skulk and the mongrol you got them both in races of destiny under other races and as much as i remember (dont have the book in front of me) they have there the progresion of those two. if you go fly-by-atack then considere the scount insted of the rouge . the skirmish is better if you plan to be in melle most of the time.
PhaedrusXY 03-03-05, 04:12 AM	I do not know exactly how to use Fiend Folio races. Do you just look at Abilities and determine there their bonuses? Skulk would be then +4 Dex, -2 Wis, -4 Cha with LA+2. I do not know about Skulk, but Mongrelfolk seems pretty good for melee rogue.It was published before they started printing the ability score adjustments separately for each monster. You just figure out what the adjustments should be based on how the scores given differ. Assume each score starts as a 10 or 11 before racial adjustments, and that racial adjustments are always even. Also note that the level adjustments listed in the stat blocks of some of the monsters in the Fiend Folio are not correct. If you look later on in the description of the creature, it will give examples which contradict the given Level Adjustment. Basically, some of the authors were confused about the difference between Level Adjustment and ECL. At the end of the listing for each creature, it gives an example of what that creature with one level of a class would be equivalent to in class levels. Use that value to figure out what the correct LA is for that creature. For example, if a monster has 3 racial hit dice and at the end it says that that creature with one level of fighter would be equal to a "normal" 7th level character, then the correct level adjustment for that creature is 3. (ECL = racial hit dice + class levels + level adjustment)
BlueOgre 03-03-05, 04:37 AM	It was published before they started printing the ability score adjustments separately for each monster. You just figure out what the adjustments should be based on how the scores given differ. Assume each score starts as a 10 or 11 before racial adjustments, and that racial adjustments are always even. Also note that the level adjustments listed in the stat blocks of some of the monsters in the Fiend Folio are not correct. If you look later on in the description of the creature, it will give examples which contradict the given Level Adjustment. Basically, some of the authors were confused about the difference between Level Adjustment and ECL. At the end of the listing for each creature, it gives an example of what that creature with one level of a class would be equivalent to in class levels. Use that value to figure out what the correct LA is for that creature. For example, if a monster has 3 racial hit dice and at the end it says that that creature with one level of fighter would be equal to a "normal" 7th level character, then the correct level adjustment for that creature is 3. (ECL = racial hit dice + class levels + level adjustment) Ok, but would Mongrelfolk have then also -2 Int, since it has Int 9? It seems rather good with Winged template added totaling +4 Dex, +4 Con, -2 Int, +2 Wis, -4 Cha and LA+2. If I also get that (8+Int bonus)*4 skill points at first level, I think I will do that.
PhaedrusXY 03-03-05, 04:45 AM	Ok, but would Mongrelfolk have then also -2 Int, since it has Int 9? It seems rather good with Winged template added totaling +4 Dex, +4 Con, -2 Int, +2 Wis, -4 Cha and LA+2. If I also get that (8+Int bonus)*4 skill points at first level, I think I will do that.Ok, I'm home from work now. The Mongrelfolk in the Fiend Folio would have ability score adjustments of +4 Con, -2 Int, -4 Cha. The Winged Template (from Savage Species) adds +4 Dex, +2 Wis, wings, and changes your type to Winged Humanoid. It would also change your favored class to Fighter. You'd have a +2 LA. Your skill points would be determined by what class you pick, since the mongrelfolk only has 1 racial hit die, which is replaced by class hit die. Your Fly speed would be 50 with manuverabilty determined by your Dex on the chart in SS. I'm not convinced the Winged template is worth a +2 LA myself... but it's your character. ;)
LordOfHavoc 03-03-05, 04:50 AM	slap the Half-fey template (Feind Folio I think) on a whisper gnome u can move uber-quiet over land or through the air. Whisper Gnomes are a steal at LA 0 and the Half Fey template gives u wings and a bunch of cool SLA's all for an LA +2.
Snicker-Snack 03-03-05, 04:56 AM	One of my favorites races from Fiend Folio is the Shadar Kai: It has 3 fey HD and a +1 LA, but it gets 1d6 SA, Hide in Plain Sight, + 6 dex, +10 to hide in dark or shadowy conditions, and free EWP:Spiked Chain. One of the problems of playing it is it's annoying Shadow Curse, but at your level, it can easily be overcome.
Null and Void 03-03-05, 05:18 AM	You're small, so while you don't do as much damage, you hit more often. Not doing much initial damage is no big deal anyway. I've successfully played tiny rouges (the Grig or Imp); the sneak attack was good enough. Trying to find a diminutive creature that will work for Rouge next. What makes a Pixie wonderful? -4 strength (as if you need it) +8 Dex (18+8=26 for a +8 Modifier! at level 1!) +6 Int (Massive skill points here especially at first level) +4 Wis (MANY rogue skills use Wis) +6 Cha (Many Rogue skill also use Cha) These skill bonuses are perfect for rouge. Damage reduction 10/cold iron (ignoring first the 10 damage in melee is most useful. Ignoring the first 10 damage in ANY situation is most useful!) Low light Vision (while it may not seem like a big deal a rogue can sure make use of it) Nice spell like abilities at 1/day: lesser confuse, dancing lights, detect good/law/thoughts/evil, dispel magic, entangle, permanent image, polymorph. Flight: 60 (Good) (feats can easily take it to perfect) Bonus feat: Dodge (every bit helps) Natural Armor +1 (every bit helps) Special Arrows (EX): - Memory loss (will negates, or lose memory). Remembers class, skills, languages, abilities, but forgets everything else until effected by a heal spell, or memory restoration via limited wish/wish/miracle -Sleep: regardless of hit die must succeed on save or effected as if by the sleep spell. The best thing: Greater Invisibility active at ALL times even when attacking, unless you suppress it (free action), you can then resume it (free action). This is a supernatural ability, so as far as I understand it Dispel Magic has no effect. With a 26 Dex score you start out with an AC of 10+8(Dex)+1 (Natural armor)+1(size)+1(padded armor)=21 Padded armor is the only armor with as high as a max Dex bonus (+8) until you get to magic armors. Starting out with anything more then that is useless because you lose Dex bonus to AC. There is little worry about losing your Dex bonus because you will more then likely NEVER be caught off guard on account of your Greater Invisibility. With such a high Dex score you will more then likely be the one with the highest initiative roll. Ultimate Rouge race? The only problem is that the level adjustment is +4, but considering the VAST amount of special abilities you get, and considering that they remain useful through out the life of the character, it is more then worth it.
BlueOgre 03-03-05, 06:31 AM	I too think pixie might well be the ultimate rogue race. It just happens I have seen so many pixie assasins and wood elf archers, that I want to do something new. I feel it would be good to be able to fly naturally in our campaign. It seems to take at least two levels to be able to fly, so I can get +4 Dex as compensation with Winged template. I also want to have quite a lot of levels for prestige classes. So my rogue will be a mongrelfolk with a winged template. Thanks everyone :)
Otto the Bugbear 03-03-05, 07:00 AM	:( No bugbear? :( You make me sad. :( Cheers Otto ;)