Post/Author/DateTime	Post
EldonG 06-29-06, 04:07 PM	Disarming. Since you can interrupt the attack, why not just use that to take the weapon away from the other guy? The spiked chain (yet again) rocks, here, being both 2-handed and having a bonus to disarm. I've disliked Robilar's from the very get-go, because it meand you take more damage...plenty more, in most combats...but this technique means quite a bit LESS damage...of course you only set up against opponents that USE weapons...
Leugren 06-29-06, 04:32 PM	By "interrupt the attack", I presume you mean that you can interrupt an opponent who is about to make several attacks against you. You can't interrupt a single attack, because the AoO you receive from Robilar's Gambit takes place after your opponent makes his attack. Robilar's Gambit isn't all that great if you have a lousy AC and you tend to get hit all the time in combat. If this describes you, then you're better off going with Karmic Strike. If you rely on a high AC and other abilities that make you harder to hit, however, then Robilar's Gambit is vastly superior to Karmic Strike. Karmic Strike and AC-boosting strategies are anathema to each other. Robilar's Gambit fills this gap fantastically, and makes playing a martial character way more interesting then it used to be. In my opinion, it's the best feat for warriors in the entire PHBII. Combine it with trip, disarm, overpowering attack, or whatever, it just plain rocks.
Some Like It Hot 06-29-06, 04:34 PM	Yeah, a disarm might limit the severity of a full attack, especially if combined with sidestep, but it couldn't interrupt the attack that triggered it. -SLIH
EldonG 06-29-06, 04:40 PM	Hmmm...maybe I'm missing something...I would've sworn people were going on and on about how it gets off before the attack that triggers it lands...I'ma gonna re-read that almost worthless chunk of text, and if it is as ya say...pity the po fool that *ever* takes it... Edit: Just looked at it again and may I say...it SUCKS. Karmic is sooo much better.
Some Like It Hot 06-29-06, 04:53 PM	Edit: Just looked at it again and may I say...it SUCKS. Karmic is sooo much better. Depends on the character. Karmic is a wasted feat if you never get hit, so it's not so good for high AC characters. Robilar's, on the other hand, is great for high AC characters as it happens no matter the result of your opponent's attack roll. He swings and misses, you take your AoO and you're at the same place as you are with Karmic without having to take a hit. It basically opens up the retributive style of fighting to characters that are difficult to hit. -SLIH
Leugren 06-29-06, 04:59 PM	Depends on the character. Karmic is a wasted feat if you never get hit, so it's not so good for high AC characters. Robilar's, on the other hand, is great for high AC characters as it happens no matter the result of your opponent's attack roll. He swings and misses, you take your AoO and you're at the same place as you are with Karmic without having to take a hit. It basically opens up the retributive style of fighting to characters that are difficult to hit. -SLIH Wow. That sounds almost exactly like what I just said a couple of posts ago! I guess you can't overstate an important point. You can craft an entire character around the concept of avoiding blows and getting tons of attacks each round just because people keep swinging at you.
EldonG 06-29-06, 05:01 PM	You see, in the game I play in, we have a character that regularly runs around with an AC of a fair bit over 30, and he gets hit regularly. I'm not sure what AC is so high that it becomes less usable, but the nice thing is, if you're that friggin' good, whenever you *do* get hit, you get instant retaliation...and any character I build with it isn't going to be that good, as a rule...so...he'll be hit. That's not even in question, to me. Heck, my *wizard* runs around with a 22, with NO buffs...and even when he buffs, he gets munched...
EldonG 06-29-06, 05:06 PM	Wow. That sounds almost exactly like what I just said a couple of posts ago! I guess you can't overstate an important point. You can craft an entire character around the concept of avoiding blows and getting tons of attacks each round just because people keep swinging at you. You see, my only issue with the concept is this: every character I've seen that uses it ends up with an AC that is likely under 30...and then takes Robilar's and drops it by 4...and a 25ish AC is going to be hit regularly by any given 10th level fighter...and that just plainly sucks. After a round or two, you won't be swinging much as that puddle of goo on the floor.
Some Like It Hot 06-29-06, 05:10 PM	Wow. That sounds almost exactly like what I just said a couple of posts ago! I guess you can't overstate an important point. You can craft an entire character around the concept of avoiding blows and getting tons of attacks each round just because people keep swinging at you Huh...indeed it does. I apologize for not giving props. Been a bit of a hectic day and I didn't remember reading it there. As for high armor classes getting munched, then you're right. Worthless for your game, unless you can put together a good miss chance. -SLIH
Leugren 06-29-06, 05:45 PM	In our campaign, we have a high-AC warrior type with magic platemail, magic shield, an amulet of natural armor, a ring of protection, Dodge, Mobility, Elusive Target, Combat Expertise, and racial bonuses to AC against giants. There are many combats in which none of our opponents are able to lay a glove on this character via their standard attack routines. I guess it all depends on who you have as a DM. Every group has a bell curve which represents the AC range for all members of the party. If you're a melee warrior who has invested feats, levels, and cash to ensure that you are at the top of your party's AC bell curve, and you have a DM who is still munching on you regularly, then I'd say that he's stacking the deck directly against you. It's possible that he's one of these nutty DMs who loves to micro-manage the actions of "uppity" chain-wielding warrior types, but who doesn't bat an eye when the wizard drops a roomful of monsters with a single spell. If this is the case, stay the heck out of melee and build yourself a spellcaster of some sort!
Some Like It Hot 06-29-06, 05:53 PM	Indeed, without an AC to back it up it sucks. You have to build a character around the idea of avoiding getting hit and retaliating with that feat. Creates a bit more of a defensive character, but that was the idea. Depending on the treasure/magic levels of your campaign, it may be spreading to thin to create a character with that sort of AC and the additional offensive might needed to force offending monsters to regard him as a threat and thus pay attention to him. If you're not playing in that sort of campaign, it can create a great tank. -SLIH
EldonG 06-29-06, 05:55 PM	In our campaign, we have a high-AC warrior type with magic platemail, magic shield, an amulet of natural armor, a ring of protection, Dodge, Mobility, Elusive Target, Combat Expertise, and racial bonuses to AC against giants. There are many combats in which none of our opponents are able to lay a glove on this character via their standard attack routines. I guess it all depends on who you have as a DM. Every group has a bell curve which represents the AC range for all members of the party. If you're a melee warrior who has invested feats, levels, and cash to ensure that you are at the top of your party's AC bell curve, and you have a DM who is still munching on you regularly, then I'd say that he's stacking the deck directly against you. It's possible that he's one of these nutty DMs who loves to micro-manage the actions of "uppity" chain-wielding warrior types, but who doesn't bat an eye when the wizard drops a roomful of monsters with a single spell. If this is the case, stay the heck out of melee and build yourself a spellcaster of some sort! Lol...actually, in that game, I play a wizard...my brother plays the fighter...and lemme tell ya, with his 30is AC, he's the big meatshield...and he gets hit a LOT. The other guy is a swasher...dodges like a madman, without a stitch of armor...but still takes at least 50-60 damage every significant combat...even though most last maybe 2-3 rounds! As a side note, my wizard took close to 100 points in one round, recently. An invisible monk crept up to me before combat ensued, and caught me flat-footed and unbuffed. I was dead in an instant. He's pretty darn tough, too, with 80 hp at 14th level...
Leugren 06-29-06, 05:58 PM	Note also that Karmic Strike causes you to effectively lower your AC by 4, which means that you'll be easier to pulp as well. Also, if optimizing AC doesn't cut it in your game, you can try a Cloak of Major Displacement or some other item that drastically reduces the number of times you get hit in combat. The thing about Robilar's Gambit is that it can effectively more than double the number of attacks you get in a round, which also allows you to end the combat a lot sooner. If the ratio of your attacks to your opponent's attacks is 2:1 thanks to Robilar's Gambit, does it really matter that each of his attacks is going to do 4 more points of damage? Consider that, over the entire duration of the fight, he's only going to get half as many attacks against you as he would have before you drop him with your flurry of AoOs.
Subedei 06-29-06, 06:03 PM	I'd have to disagree greatly with this idea that Robilars Gambit isn't good, it's fantastic. Who cares which one's better? You take both of them and perhaps top it off with defensive through. I'm currently playing a character with both defensive throw and Karmic strike and so far it's mopped the floor with just about every melee threat it's encountered. At 13th level I'll gain access to robilars gambit and I really don't see how that'll be anything but a boon. -4 AC and 4 more damage is a small price to pay for the gains.
EldonG 06-29-06, 06:09 PM	Note also that Karmic Strike causes you to effectively lower your AC by 4, which means that you'll be easier to pulp as well. Also, if optimizing AC doesn't cut it in your game, you can try a Cloak of Major Displacement or some other item that drastically reduces the number of times you get hit in combat. The thing about Robilar's Gambit is that it can effectively more than double the number of attacks you get in a round, which also allows you to end the combat a lot sooner. If the ratio of your attacks to your opponent's attacks is 2:1 thanks to Robilar's Gambit, does it really matter that each of his attacks is going to do 4 more points of damage? Consider that, over the entire duration of the fight, he's only going to get half as many attacks against you as he would have before you drop him with your flurry of AoOs. Well, 2 things, here...CustServ has said that they don't stack, so it's one or the other...and yes, the +4 does matter...bunches. With the reduced AC (already a little problem with Karmic), you're wide open for *anybody* that wants to take potshots at you...like archers. They don't have to do a lotta damage, either...you've just equipped the ALL with 18 Str mighty bows! You can easily be hit by loads of little attacks that never would've bothered you before, in any sort of big fight, many of which you can't return an attack on. All that said...displacement, or something like it, granting a 50% miss chance does surely help...and if I was to ever use Robilar's, it would definitely be in combination with that effect.
EldonG 06-29-06, 06:12 PM	I'd have to disagree greatly with this idea that Robilars Gambit isn't good, it's fantastic. Who cares which one's better? You take both of them and perhaps top it off with defensive through. I'm currently playing a character with both defensive throw and Karmic strike and so far it's mopped the floor with just about every melee threat it's encountered. At 13th level I'll gain access to robilars gambit and I really don't see how that'll be anything but a boon. -4 AC and 4 more damage is a small price to pay for the gains. Don't ever use it when any opponents have ranged attacks...they'll slaughter you so fast you won't know what hit you...
Sita Ram 06-29-06, 06:12 PM	This is also great for the peeps who don;t care about getting hit. If a wilder takes vigor and gambit, he/she can boost up hit points then whack toe to toe with whoever or whatever he/she pleases. Pretty brutal IMO. :cool:
EldonG 06-29-06, 06:16 PM	This is also great for the peeps who don;t care about getting hit. If a wilder takes vigor and gambit, he/she can boost up hit points then whack toe to toe with whoever or whatever he/she pleases. Pretty brutal IMO. :cool: Yeah...psis do have the edge on this one. I'd do it with a Psychic Warrior, now that I think about it...with all the damage avoidance, self-healing, and AC pumping stuff they get...
PhoenixInferno 06-29-06, 06:21 PM	Well, 2 things, here...CustServ has said that they don't stack, so it's one or the otherPlease provide the response.
EldonG 06-29-06, 06:28 PM	Please provide the response. I didn't get it, but I've seen it referenced in Caelic's Jack B. Quick build thread. Sorry, but I can't help much on that.
Broblawsky0 06-29-06, 09:45 PM	Adding in a Retributive Amulet helps avoid dying in melee combat. Even better is a Wrathful Healing weapon, assuming your GM allows 3.0 sources (Enemies & Allies).
raineym 06-29-06, 10:47 PM	Please provide the response. Here's the response to me when I asked CustServ a couple weeks ago: In regards to your question and example about the feats Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit providing two Attacks of Opportunity, the damage caused by a successful attack is the resulting continuation of the attack, and thus the attack itself and the damage caused by the attack are inclusive, meaning that the attack and the damage are not two separate triggers for Attacks of Opportunity. You may still have both feats active. However, you would only gain the benefits of the feat that would activate first due to the Attack of Opportunity created by an opponent. And here's the post I put it on a little while back: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9499929&postcount=28
Corzat_the_Gray 06-29-06, 11:27 PM	did a build with robilar's that used a goliath fighter using a goliath great hammer with the Crushing Strike feat (PHB2), which causes +1 on attack after each successful hit with bludgeon until the end of the turn, that ended up having some crazy high AC and attack bonuses that even pre-buffing his AC it would be highly unlikely for him to be hit, and if they did (after his full attack) then, if they were still anything other than a puddle of mush after his AoOs deserved to be causing him some pain... I think when we went through the MM this build was taking out young adult and/or adult dragons in I want to say two or three hits... granted that was just by looking at hp as is in the MM... Makes me wish that I hadn't let my buddy borrow that build to show to another DM to make him cry so that I could give you actual stats on this guy, but i can't remember to save my life what this guy's stats were...
EldonG 06-29-06, 11:34 PM	Corzat...what kind of AC are we talking about, here? That would take at least a 40 (minus Robilar's) in our 14th level game...come to think of it, our last big opponent had like a 42...maybe a 44...
Corzat_the_Gray 06-29-06, 11:43 PM	Like I said, I can't remember for sure but after going against the goliath's racial tendency to wear little to no armor and be wearing magical mountain plate or one of the other higher AC armors from races of stone and an animated tower shield this guy was around 45 but I'm not sure... lack of sleep and too long since looking at this guy, I think I made him up the first day I got PHB2... and now that you bring this to my attention I may have flubbed it b4 by saying pre-buffed but I know I had used one of the armors from RoS and an animated shield along with the armor specialization... man, I wish I had this guys write-up with me... edit: better yet wish I could just drop him into a 20th level campaign and see how he would fare
Corzat_the_Gray 06-30-06, 12:10 AM	EldonG: Now that I think on it more, my buddy and I made up this build for the Iron DM at GenCon (that we didn't get into :weep: ) and since we didn't know what to expect we made an epic level breakdown through level 25 just to be safe as to what we wanted when. So I may be remembering this guy's stats as he looked at 25th rather than at 20th level. So now I'm REALLY REALLY wishing I had this write-up to check for you.
EldonG 06-30-06, 12:16 AM	Well...if he's 20th...that's an extra +6 to hit...45 is on the low end...
PhoenixInferno 06-30-06, 12:29 AM	Hmm...interesting CustServ note. The difference in wording seems intentional to me and CustServ's "dealing damage is part of the attack" seems like a construct. I don't see what's abusive about it - you have to leave yourself exposed and have a big DEX to take advantage of it. If you were to believe CustServ and you had both Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit, then you would never get to use Karmic Strike because Robilar's Gambit triggers first (the attack, as opposed to the damage). But thems the rules.
raineym 06-30-06, 01:09 AM	Hmm...interesting CustServ note. The difference in wording seems intentional to me and CustServ's "dealing damage is part of the attack" seems like a construct. I don't see what's abusive about it - you have to leave yourself exposed and have a big DEX to take advantage of it. If you were to believe CustServ and you had both Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit, then you would never get to use Karmic Strike because Robilar's Gambit triggers first (the attack, as opposed to the damage). But thems the rules. Also, at the same time, I sent an email to The Sage with the exact same thing I sent CustServ, but have yet to get any response on that. But, until they issue errata or put something about it in the FAQ, people can interpret the interaction of the feats the way they want.
EldonG 06-30-06, 01:21 AM	Also, at the same time, I sent an email to The Sage with the exact same thing I sent CustServ, but have yet to get any response on that. But, until they issue errata or put something about it in the FAQ, people can interpret the interaction of the feats the way they want. Heck, I've noticed people interpreting the FAQ as they wanted...or even RAW, sraight from the SRD. I predict it won't change much, either way.
saru 06-30-06, 01:40 AM	and how will interact counterattack (fighter 12 ability) with robilar or karmic strike ? counterattack is not an AoO, it's an immediate action.
raineym 06-30-06, 04:37 AM	and how will interact counterattack (fighter 12 ability) with robilar or karmic strike ? counterattack is not an AoO, it's an immediate action. Counterattack takes place whenever you want it. After all, it is an immediate action.
Leugren 06-30-06, 12:09 PM	Note also that Karmic Strike causes you to effectively lower your AC by 4, which means that you'll be easier to pulp as well. Also, if optimizing AC doesn't cut it in your game, you can try a Cloak of Major Displacement or some other item that drastically reduces the number of times you get hit in combat. The thing about Robilar's Gambit is that it can effectively more than double the number of attacks you get in a round, which also allows you to end the combat a lot sooner. If the ratio of your attacks to your opponent's attacks is 2:1 thanks to Robilar's Gambit, does it really matter that each of his attacks is going to do 4 more points of damage? Consider that, over the entire duration of the fight, he's only going to get half as many attacks against you as he would have before you drop him with your flurry of AoOs. Well, 2 things, here...CustServ has said that they don't stack, so it's one or the other...and yes, the +4 does matter...bunches. With the reduced AC (already a little problem with Karmic), you're wide open for *anybody* that wants to take potshots at you...like archers. They don't have to do a lotta damage, either...you've just equipped the ALL with 18 Str mighty bows! You can easily be hit by loads of little attacks that never would've bothered you before, in any sort of big fight, many of which you can't return an attack on. All that said...displacement, or something like it, granting a 50% miss chance does surely help...and if I was to ever use Robilar's, it would definitely be in combination with that effect. Hilarious that you're quoting the CustServ ruling back to me when I'm the one who originally asked CustServ about this and then posted it to the Jack B. Quick thread! :) My point had nothing to do with stacking Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit. What I was really trying to say is that, if you activate Robilar's Gambit when you are engaged with one or more melee opponents, you will get about twice as many attacks per round as you normally would because you'll get an attack of opportunity every time someone takes a swing at you. If you get twice as many attacks per round, it stands to reason that, on average, your fight will last about half as long as it normally would. If your fight lasts half as long as it normally would, it stands to reason that your opponents will get about half as many opportunities to hit you as they normally would over the entire course of the fight. If your opponents get half as many opportunities to hit you as they normally would over the entire course of the fight, it stands to reason that, on average, you'll probably take about half as much damage as you normally would over the entire course of the fight. With the -4 AC and the +4 damage from Robilar's Gambit, let's say you'll probably take about two-thirds as much damage over the entire course of the fight. This means that you still come out well ahead in terms of damage received by using Robilar's Gambit, and you had a hell of a good time doing it! This is not a perfect syllogism, mind you, and many factors can influence the results (such as the presence of many ranged combatants, as you stated), but the basic principal holds true for a lot of combats. Remember that you can always choose whether to activate Robilar's Gambit or not in any given round. If the situation doesn't favor the use of Robilar's Gambit, then just don't use it. Remember also that Karmic Strike also effectively grants your opponents a +4 to their attack rolls. This +4 bonus can easily be converted to +8 points of damage per hit by any typical power attacker unless you've got Elusive Target. I'm curious why you consider it acceptable to make yourself vulnerable to damage via Karmic Strike, but not via Robilar's Gambit. With Robilar's Gambit, you may take a bit more damage per round, but you also get an assload of AoOs if you have the right type of character. This means that, over the duration of the entire fight, you are apt to take less damage overall in many cases.
Leugren 06-30-06, 12:17 PM	Here's the link to my original CustServ query from the Jack B. Quick thread, by the way: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9428634&postcount=50 As to whether we should disregard rulings that come from Customer Service, I full endorse the opinions espoused by Caelic in his "Rules as Written" versus "Rules As We Want Them To Be" (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=645291) thread.
Leugren 06-30-06, 12:24 PM	One additional thing to note is that all of the extra attacks you get from Robilar's Gambit are at full BAB, or even higher if you've got the Deft Opportunist feat! This means that, on average, you'll hit more than twice as often, and your fights will be even shorter than I originally projected two posts ago.
EldonG 06-30-06, 12:42 PM	Hilarious that you're quoting the CustServ ruling back to me when I'm the one who originally asked CustServ about this and then posted it to the Jack B. Quick thread! :) My point had nothing to do with stacking Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit. What I was really trying to say is that, if you activate Robilar's Gambit when you are engaged with one or more melee opponents, you will get about twice as many attacks per round as you normally would because you'll get an attack of opportunity every time someone takes a swing at you. If you get twice as many attacks per round, it stands to reason that, on average, your fight will last about half as long as it normally would. If your fight lasts half as long as it normally would, it stands to reason that your opponents will get about half as many opportunities to hit you as they normally would over the entire course of the fight. If your opponents get half as many opportunities to hit you as they normally would over the entire course of the fight, it stands to reason that, on average, you'll probably take about half as much damage as you normally would over the entire course of the fight. With the -4 AC and the +4 damage from Robilar's Gambit, let's say you'll probably take about two-thirds as much damage over the entire course of the fight. This means that you still come out well ahead in terms of damage received by using Robilar's Gambit, and you had a hell of a good time doing it! This is not a perfect syllogism, mind you, and many factors can influence the results (such as the presence of many ranged combatants, as you stated), but the basic principal holds true for a lot of combats. Remember that you can always choose whether to activate Robilar's Gambit or not in any given round. If the situation doesn't favor the use of Robilar's Gambit, then just don't use it. Remember also that Karmic Strike also effectively grants your opponents a +4 to their attack rolls. This +4 bonus can easily be converted to +8 points of damage per hit by any typical power attacker unless you've got Elusive Target. I'm curious why you consider it acceptable to make yourself vulnerable to damage via Karmic Strike, but not via Robilar's Gambit. With Robilar's Gambit, you may take a bit more damage per round, but you also get an assload of AoOs if you have the right type of character. This means that, over the duration of the entire fight, you are apt to take less damage overall in many cases. Because if I'm dead before the cleric can get to me, those AoOs mean nothing? Maybe...just a thought... That bit more damage a round adds up pretty quick. I'm VERY used to seeing the fighters in the game I play down to 10-20 hp, after a fight...and often, they were healed DURING it.
Leugren 06-30-06, 12:58 PM	Because if I'm dead before the cleric can get to me, those AoOs mean nothing? Maybe...just a thought... That bit more damage a round adds up pretty quick. I'm VERY used to seeing the fighters in the game I play down to 10-20 hp, after a fight...and often, they were healed DURING it. You win, EldonG; I guess Robilar's Gambit is not for you! If you don't mind, though, I'm going to keep using it and loving it in my game.
Some Like It Hot 06-30-06, 01:02 PM	Where is all that damage coming from? Is it spells, ranged attackers, melee combatants? The only ones that Robilar's should really hurt you with very often are ranged attackers who, I would think, should be focusing more on your party's ranged guys or spellcasters. Among the tanks, Robilar's doesn't carry the getting hit requirement, so even if they miss you can take your weapon from them. But if optimizing your AC/miss chance to the point where you're able to avoid the majority of the attacks leveled against you is cost prohibitive in your campaign, then don't use Robilar's. To pose a question, why do people push their AC into the 40's if they're still getting their teeth kicked in every fight? -SLIH
EldonG 06-30-06, 01:07 PM	You win, EldonG; I guess Robilar's Gambit is not for you! If you don't mind, though, I'm going to keep using it and loving it in my game. Gawd...I never expected to tell anyone else what to do, only make suggestions based on what I percieve. I do warn folks that, from my experiences, it's more trouble than it's worth...but...man, I've even been shown an example of how I could make it work, for me...and accepted that, right off. I hope it does work for ya...I hope you don't mind my skepticism, though?
EldonG 06-30-06, 01:13 PM	Where is all that damage coming from? Is it spells, ranged attackers, melee combatants? The only ones that Robilar's should really hurt you with very often are ranged attackers who, I would think, should be focusing more on your party's ranged guys or spellcasters. Among the tanks, Robilar's doesn't carry the getting hit requirement, so even if they miss you can take your weapon from them. But if optimizing your AC/miss chance to the point where you're able to avoid the majority of the attacks leveled against you is cost prohibitive in your campaign, then don't use Robilar's. To pose a question, why do people push their AC into the 40's if they're still getting their teeth kicked in every fight? -SLIH Yeah...I know how it works...and a disarm is a great idea...but what, then? By the way, nobody has AC in the 40s...in the party. It was a guy we fought. The mid to high 30s just isn't enough to assure not getting hit pretty regularly...in the 40s, right now, might be...but we're only 14th level. Mind you...the guy that regularly manages an AC in the mid-high 30s takes less damage than most...but dropping his AC by 4, and then taking an extra 4 damage per hit would be a LOT more damage.
Some Like It Hot 06-30-06, 01:30 PM	Yeah...I know how it works...and a disarm is a great idea...but what, then? He should be doing a bit less damage. If he draws another weapon, he's finished his action unless he has Quick Draw. If he tries to pick up his weapon, you attack him again and he's finished his action. Alternatively, you could trip him, reducing his attack rolls enough to eliminate the penalty you're taking for Robilar's. If you've got Improved Trip, you disarm him after he's on the ground. If you've got sidestep, you could move away from him now. As with most things, reach makes this better. -SLIH
Leugren 06-30-06, 01:33 PM	Because if I'm dead before the cleric can get to me, those AoOs mean nothing? Maybe...just a thought... That bit more damage a round adds up pretty quick. I'm VERY used to seeing the fighters in the game I play down to 10-20 hp, after a fight...and often, they were healed DURING it. I've gotta say, I'm with SLIH on this one, EldonG, so I'm going to turn this quote back around on you: how are the fighters in your game going be down to 10-20 hp if the melee portion of the fight only lasts for five rounds as opposed to ten thanks to Robilar's Gambit?
EldonG 06-30-06, 01:58 PM	I've gotta say, I'm with SLIH on this one, EldonG, so I'm going to turn this quote back around on you: how are the fighters in your game going be down to 10-20 hp if the melee portion of the fight only lasts for five rounds as opposed to ten thanks to Robilar's Gambit? Five or ten rounds? We'd be paste, on the average! I'm talking 2-3 rounds! I really don't see it as being THAT big of an effect, really. One character just can't make that much of a difference in a 12 character party...(which is why we regularly run across CRs we can barely touch. :rolleyes: )
EldonG 06-30-06, 02:00 PM	He should be doing a bit less damage. If he draws another weapon, he's finished his action unless he has Quick Draw. If he tries to pick up his weapon, you attack him again and he's finished his action. Alternatively, you could trip him, reducing his attack rolls enough to eliminate the penalty you're taking for Robilar's. If you've got Improved Trip, you disarm him after he's on the ground. If you've got sidestep, you could move away from him now. As with most things, reach makes this better. -SLIH My point here is this: Robilar's won't help, if he doesn't have a weapon...(Karmic won't either, but I tend to think I'd take less damage with Karmic...honestly.)
Leugren 06-30-06, 02:09 PM	Five or ten rounds? We'd be paste, on the average! I'm talking 2-3 rounds! I just threw those numbers out to showcase the fact that Robilar's Gambit can cut the duration of a fight in half. Since I am a software architect for a major software product development company, I think I'm going to create a computer program over the week-end to simulate some typical combat scenarios in an effort to see the impact that Robilar's Gambit has on the duration of a fight and on the amount of damage that you take over the duration of the fight. I'll play with the variables and report the results next week sometime. That way, we'll have a real basis for argument, instead of just a bunch of theories.
Some Like It Hot 06-30-06, 02:14 PM	My point here is this: Robilar's won't help, if he doesn't have a weapon...(Karmic won't either, but I tend to think I'd take less damage with Karmic...honestly.) Robilar's helps when you have the ability to reduce an opponents attack rolls by any significant margin. Say for a second that you render an opponent unable to get his weapon back using sunder or something along those lines. Assume that he joined combat using his weapon of choice. If he's a straight melee fighter, you've forced him to fall back to a presumably lesser weapon. He should be hitting you less, making Robilar's more valuable than Karmic here. If he doesn't have another weapon to use, you've greatly reduced his threat to you and the rest of the party. In addition to these would be any advantages he gained for using a reach weapon and what-not. If you're fighting a monk, monster, etc. then Karmic will have the edge unless you have some way of reducing those attack rolls, such as ability damage and the like. At any rate, I'd wager you're campaign is not exactly typical if you're taking that much damage in that short a combat. It seems like having both might not be such a bad thing given the various situations outlined.
EldonG 06-30-06, 02:14 PM	I just threw those numbers out to showcase the fact that Robilar's Gambit can cut the duration of a fight in half. Since I am a software architect for a major software product development company, I think I'm going to create a computer program over the week-end to simulate some typical combat scenarios in an effort to see the impact that Robilar's Gambit has on the duration of a fight and on the amount of damage that you take over the duration of the fight. I'll play with the variables and report the results next week sometime. That way, we'll have a real basis for argument, instead of just a bunch of theories. Er...ok...but make sure you do it with a dozen PCs, and often as many...or more...enemies, if you want to cover my specifics...
EldonG 06-30-06, 02:17 PM	Robilar's helps when you have the ability to reduce an opponents attack rolls by any significant margin. Say for a second that you render an opponent unable to get his weapon back using sunder or something along those lines. Assume that he joined combat using his weapon of choice. If he's a straight melee fighter, you've forced him to fall back to a presumably lesser weapon. He should be hitting you less, making Robilar's more valuable than Karmic here. If he doesn't have another weapon to use, you've greatly reduced his threat to you and the rest of the party. In addition to these would be any advantages he gained for using a reach weapon and what-not. If you're fighting a monk, monster, etc. then Karmic will have the edge unless you have some way of reducing those attack rolls, such as ability damage and the like. At any rate, I'd wager you're campaign is not exactly typical if you're taking that much damage in that short a combat. It seems like having both might not be such a bad thing given the various situations outlined. You're right...it's far from typical...and lately here, almost all we've been fighting have been monsters...and monks. Crazy, huh?
Leugren 06-30-06, 02:51 PM	Er...ok...but make sure you do it with a dozen PCs, and often as many...or more...enemies, if you want to cover my specifics... I'm sorry, did you just say a dozen PCs? Yeah, that is far from typical, and under those circumstances, I can understand some of your skepticism. If you've got 12 PCs in your party, you can't expect any one of them to appreciably reduce the duration of a fight by using Robilar's Gambit. If the fights aren't any shorter, and you're easy to hit to boot, then you'll likely get creamed if you activate Robilar's Gambit. In a normal-sized party of 4 PCs, however, using Robilar's Gambit can appreciably reduce the duration of the fight, which balances out the extra damage per round you receive.
EldonG 06-30-06, 02:59 PM	I'm sorry, did you just say a dozen PCs? Yeah, that is far from typical, and under those circumstances, I can understand some of your skepticism. If you've got 12 PCs in your party, you can't expect any one of them to appreciably reduce the duration of a fight by using Robilar's Gambit. If the fights aren't any shorter, and you're easy to hit to boot, then you'll likely get creamed if you activate Robilar's Gambit. In a normal-sized party of 4 PCs, however, using Robilar's Gambit can appreciably reduce the duration of the fight, which balances out the extra damage per round you receive. Yeah...that may well be true. I'm just working with my own experience, after all. YMMV.
Some Like It Hot 06-30-06, 04:07 PM	YMMV? You're right...it's far from typical...and lately here, almost all we've been fighting have been monsters...and monks. Crazy, huh? :heehee Monks are fun...monster monks are even more fun. I always told my DM that monks were a fairly efficient caster killer at low-mid levels. He didn't believe me till he used one. First character I've ever had die that wasn't because there's no saving throw vs. stupid. On a side note, does your group allow things like the Retributive Amulet or a wrathful healing weapon? With the "double your damage" style abilities, both of those are massively useful. -SLIH
EldonG 06-30-06, 04:10 PM	YMMV? :heehee Monks are fun...monster monks are even more fun. I always told my DM that monks were a fairly efficient caster killer at low-mid levels. He didn't believe me till he used one. First character I've ever had die that wasn't because there's no saving throw vs. stupid. On a side note, does your group allow things like the Retributive Amulet or a wrathful healing weapon? With the "double your damage" style abilities, both of those are massively useful. -SLIH Your Mileage May Vary...a way of saying that your gas mileage varies, depending on driving habits...has come to mean...your experience may vary from mine...or anyone else's.
Some Like It Hot 06-30-06, 04:33 PM	Gotcha...s'what I thought, but wasn't sure if it had some different meaning on the boards. Thanks for the clarification. -SLIH
EldonG 06-30-06, 04:43 PM	Np. :D
raineym 06-30-06, 05:36 PM	I came up with a AoO/Battlefield Controller w/ Spiked Chain build a few weeks back and have been playing him successfully now for three weeks, and although he is only Level 2, I think I have come up with a way to negate the -4 from either Robilar's Gambit or Karmic Strike: a custom magic item I am thinking of having crafted: (Actually, a player in my group thought of this item when he saw my build, and its cheaper and better than a Ring of Force Shield.) Ring of Shielding: The magic of this ring, activated and deactivated at will as a free action, generates an invisible, tower shield-sized mobile disk of force that hovers in front of you, providing a +4 shield bonus to Armor Class, negates magic missile attacks directed at you, and since it is a force effect, applies against incorporeal touch attacks. The shield has no armor check penalty or arcane spell failure chance, but unlike with a normal tower shield, you can't use this disk for cover. Faint abjuration; CL 1st; Forge Ring, shield; Price (1 (spell level) × 1 (caster level) × 2,000 gp) x 2 (spell measured in minutes) = 4,000gp. Basically, a use-activated shield spell effect, and since I'm not using a shield, this should work out perfectly. BTW, I plan on using Karmic Strike until 12th-level, then take Robilar's Gambit and Retrain and take something else in the place of Karmic Strike.
EldonG 06-30-06, 07:42 PM	I came up with a AoO/Battlefield Controller w/ Spiked Chain build a few weeks back and have been playing him successfully now for three weeks, and although he is only Level 2, I think I have come up with a way to negate the -4 from either Robilar's Gambit or Karmic Strike: a custom magic item I am thinking of having crafted: (Actually, a player in my group thought of this item when he saw my build, and its cheaper and better than a Ring of Force Shield.) Basically, a use-activated shield spell effect, and since I'm not using a shield, this should work out perfectly. BTW, I plan on using Karmic Strike until 12th-level, then take Robilar's Gambit and Retrain and take something else in the place of Karmic Strike. What you are talking about here is an upgraded Force Shield ring. My wizard wears the normal version...+2. Edit: Duh...how could I miss that you mentioned that, already?
Nazzareth 07-01-06, 04:57 AM	Robilar's Gambit pulls ahead of Karmic Strike when you use other effects to help increase the feats effectiveness. There are a lot more ways to maximize the effectiveness of Robilar's Gambit than Karmic Strike. Besides having high AC Robilar's Gambit works well with mirror images, concealment%, blinking. There are many ways to get a miss chance % through feats, spells, PRCs and items. All these effects are counter productive for karmic strikers. For karmic strike user's DR, fast healing, temporary HP and regeneration are all great effects are needed to improve the feats effectiveness, however a Robilar's Gambit user can still benefit from these effects as they are not counter productive to the feats use.