A hopeless case (please help!)? [Archive] - Wizards Community

A hopeless case (please help!)? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tytalus
04-26-04, 03:13 PM Hi all,

I'm trying to help out a friend of mine who's playing in the same campaign as I am. His character concept (becoming an Arcane Archer) was foiled by the DM, who turned him into a Drow (storyline, don't ask) with all implications, including different favorite class. This is what we have to work with:

Drow Fighter3/Sorc2
STR 15
DEX 18
CON 12
INT 15
WIS 14
CHA 17
He's wielding a moonblade (story item, grants a number of considerable powers per day, including deathguard 1/day)

Feats: WF(composite long bow), point blank shot, rapid shot, improved initiative.

He wants to play a character that (ideally) can help both in melee (something gish-like) and be a serious archer. If necessary, he'd settle for one of those. I am aware that even that is hard to do.

Frankly, I don't know what to do here. I'd go so far as to suggest to accept the XP penalty and stick with the original concept (Fighter6/Sorc1-2/AA2-10). Other ideas are to go for Fighter4/Sorc3/PrC-X (with PrC being either Arcane Archer, Order of the Bow initiate or Deepwood Sniper). The progression should be optimized for the next few levels.

Resources to use (all 3.0 except for classes, which are 3.5): core, splat books, Forgotten Realms stuff, and even 3rd party material. No psionics.

Any suggestions would be very much appreciated.
Beamup
04-26-04, 03:25 PM Originally posted by Tytalus
His character concept (becoming an Arcane Archer) was foiled by the DM, who turned him into a Drow (storyline, don't ask) with all implications, including different favorite class.

I'd start by talking to the DM, explaining that changing the favored class has really messed up what the player wanted to do with the PC. Point out that favored class can be interpreted as really a function of education and how someone was raised, rather than biology, and thus shouldn't change. You may well be able to get him to agree to allow the PC to keep his favored class as it was.

If that doesn't work, I'll let others who are far more capable than I provide suggestions on builds.
CompleteSatori
04-26-04, 03:28 PM Fighter 4/ Sorcerer 2/ Order of the Bow Initiate 2/ Peerless Archer 8/ Deepwood Sniper 2/ Order of the Bow Initiate 3-4.

Gives him the ability to use his bow in melee with no restrictions or AoO, threatens a 10' area with his bow, can enchant his arrows with up to +4 as Craft Magic Weapon, gives him Power Attack with his Bow (with the same 2:1 return as bow is a 2 handed weapon), makes him threaten at x4 and all of his arrows are always Keen, and gives him additional range, plus some pretty cool candy abilities, and both Ranged Precision damage and Ranged Sneak Attack, coupled with Shield and True Strike from Sorcerer he should be okay.
Tolstoy
04-26-04, 03:33 PM Sorc 4/ Fight 4....might solve your problem
rilem
04-26-04, 03:35 PM I'd suggest taking a look at the 3.5 Gish thread, if you haven't already. There may be a similar build (surely better than mine, anyway).

But you're not all that bad off. Taking 2 more levels of Sorceror should qualify you for Spellsword (aside from the beating-someone-up requirement). From there you can get to Eldritch Knight and Arcane Archer (which is really only worth it for 2 levels).

Fighter3/Sorceror4/SpellSword3/ArcaneArcher2/EldritchKnight8
BAB +18, 14 level spellcasting, Imbue Arrow, Ignore ASF 15%

If that's too many PrCs, you can sub the SpellSword levels for basic Sorceror levels, though you'll have to figure in more fighter levels to correct the imbalance. Given that your DM is the one that messed this guy up, I really don't think he's in a position to complain about convulted builds, though.

EDIT: Oops, Drow. Knock off 2 E.K. levels, sadly. BAB +16, 12 level spellcasting (6th level spells, enough to imbue an Antimagic Field, which is nice). Though since the DM's to blame ...
CompleteSatori
04-26-04, 03:49 PM you MUST gain another Fighter level, as 3 levels is sub-par and you are better off getting that last feat.
Mith
04-26-04, 03:54 PM A) That really sucks.
B) Your DM is an idiot. When you change form, you retain your old favored class. I'll look and see if I can get a specific quote, but all the form changing spells and such are very clear - you retain all mental aspects of your former self. This most definitely includes favored class.
Funny Slaughter
04-26-04, 04:08 PM i think there are two sides:
first an arcane archer-concept like this is quite weak anyhow. the only good AA-builds i know include only a few levels of the PrC and are used in conjunction with a high casterlevel.

on the other side the morphing into a drow is an advantage, the player gains two free levels of ecl, not bad if you ask me.

i would go for sorc4/fighter4, its nothing good but not as bad as the base you have now.
mix up the archer-PrCs as you like, read the archer-builds from the ranger-thread, ksbsnowowl ones etc.

the solution for XP-penalties are PrCs, just take a minimum of base-levels and enjoy the rest.

gs
Funny
rilem
04-26-04, 04:12 PM That's a good point, Mith — even beyond the mechanics of it, favored class should reflect an aspect of culture, not biology.

Regarding fighter levels: Yes, 3 levels is suboptimal, but if it's a choice between a feat and, say, Contingency, I say sacrifice the feat.
CompleteSatori
04-26-04, 04:28 PM But hes not really a Gish, hes an Archer/Sorcerer. I just built his progression to reflect that. And an extra feat is way better on a low casting build than one half level of spells.
Tytalus
04-30-04, 02:54 AM Thanks for the help, all.

I totally agree on the issue of the favored class, but it is not my place to push for that.

I do realize that AA is a mediocre concept, but it has flavour - and it is what my friend wanted to play. A few players have non-optimized concepts, but my friend in question really needs some help...

Anyway, multiple prestige classes are eyed with suspicion, so I'd like to keep the number down. My suggestions to him were, based on your comments:

- Drow2/Fighter4/Sorc1/AA10/DWS3 (if he can convince the DM about the favored class issue and drop that last level of Sorcerer that he only took because of XP penalties).

- Drow2/Fighter4/Sorc3/Order of the Bow Initiate7/Peerless Archer3/Something1 - for an archery focus

- Drow2/Fighter3/Sorc4/SS3/AA2/EK6 - like rilem suggested. Thanks, rilem, that's a very nice build! My favorite of the three.

I'm curious to see which one he likes most...
quetzyl
04-30-04, 04:37 AM As a serious archer, weapon specialisation is really quite valuable, as you get plenty of opportunities to full attack, with lots of attacks, but find it harder to deal extra damage. Taking Fighter 4 is IMHO worth it to get weapon specialisation in his bow of choice.

Cheers,
quetzyl
Tytalus
04-30-04, 01:40 PM Good point quetzyl. Weapon Specialization is an important part of the second option (required for OotBI), and recommended for the first. For the third build, it's optional - but you'd give up 6th level spells for it, so I think it's not quite as useful there.
CompleteSatori
04-30-04, 03:03 PM Weapon Specialization is no longer a requirement of the OotBI btw. In 3.5 that is. But it is a good feat for a specialist Archer.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tytalus 04-26-04, 03:13 PM	Hi all, I'm trying to help out a friend of mine who's playing in the same campaign as I am. His character concept (becoming an Arcane Archer) was foiled by the DM, who turned him into a Drow (storyline, don't ask) with all implications, including different favorite class. This is what we have to work with: Drow Fighter3/Sorc2 STR 15 DEX 18 CON 12 INT 15 WIS 14 CHA 17 He's wielding a moonblade (story item, grants a number of considerable powers per day, including deathguard 1/day) Feats: WF(composite long bow), point blank shot, rapid shot, improved initiative. He wants to play a character that (ideally) can help both in melee (something gish-like) and be a serious archer. If necessary, he'd settle for one of those. I am aware that even that is hard to do. Frankly, I don't know what to do here. I'd go so far as to suggest to accept the XP penalty and stick with the original concept (Fighter6/Sorc1-2/AA2-10). Other ideas are to go for Fighter4/Sorc3/PrC-X (with PrC being either Arcane Archer, Order of the Bow initiate or Deepwood Sniper). The progression should be optimized for the next few levels. Resources to use (all 3.0 except for classes, which are 3.5): core, splat books, Forgotten Realms stuff, and even 3rd party material. No psionics. Any suggestions would be very much appreciated.
Beamup 04-26-04, 03:25 PM	Originally posted by Tytalus His character concept (becoming an Arcane Archer) was foiled by the DM, who turned him into a Drow (storyline, don't ask) with all implications, including different favorite class. I'd start by talking to the DM, explaining that changing the favored class has really messed up what the player wanted to do with the PC. Point out that favored class can be interpreted as really a function of education and how someone was raised, rather than biology, and thus shouldn't change. You may well be able to get him to agree to allow the PC to keep his favored class as it was. If that doesn't work, I'll let others who are far more capable than I provide suggestions on builds.
CompleteSatori 04-26-04, 03:28 PM	Fighter 4/ Sorcerer 2/ Order of the Bow Initiate 2/ Peerless Archer 8/ Deepwood Sniper 2/ Order of the Bow Initiate 3-4. Gives him the ability to use his bow in melee with no restrictions or AoO, threatens a 10' area with his bow, can enchant his arrows with up to +4 as Craft Magic Weapon, gives him Power Attack with his Bow (with the same 2:1 return as bow is a 2 handed weapon), makes him threaten at x4 and all of his arrows are always Keen, and gives him additional range, plus some pretty cool candy abilities, and both Ranged Precision damage and Ranged Sneak Attack, coupled with Shield and True Strike from Sorcerer he should be okay.
Tolstoy 04-26-04, 03:33 PM	Sorc 4/ Fight 4....might solve your problem
rilem 04-26-04, 03:35 PM	I'd suggest taking a look at the 3.5 Gish thread, if you haven't already. There may be a similar build (surely better than mine, anyway). But you're not all that bad off. Taking 2 more levels of Sorceror should qualify you for Spellsword (aside from the beating-someone-up requirement). From there you can get to Eldritch Knight and Arcane Archer (which is really only worth it for 2 levels). Fighter3/Sorceror4/SpellSword3/ArcaneArcher2/EldritchKnight8 BAB +18, 14 level spellcasting, Imbue Arrow, Ignore ASF 15% If that's too many PrCs, you can sub the SpellSword levels for basic Sorceror levels, though you'll have to figure in more fighter levels to correct the imbalance. Given that your DM is the one that messed this guy up, I really don't think he's in a position to complain about convulted builds, though. EDIT: Oops, Drow. Knock off 2 E.K. levels, sadly. BAB +16, 12 level spellcasting (6th level spells, enough to imbue an Antimagic Field, which is nice). Though since the DM's to blame ...
CompleteSatori 04-26-04, 03:49 PM	you MUST gain another Fighter level, as 3 levels is sub-par and you are better off getting that last feat.
Mith 04-26-04, 03:54 PM	A) That really sucks. B) Your DM is an idiot. When you change form, you retain your old favored class. I'll look and see if I can get a specific quote, but all the form changing spells and such are very clear - you retain all mental aspects of your former self. This most definitely includes favored class.
Funny Slaughter 04-26-04, 04:08 PM	i think there are two sides: first an arcane archer-concept like this is quite weak anyhow. the only good AA-builds i know include only a few levels of the PrC and are used in conjunction with a high casterlevel. on the other side the morphing into a drow is an advantage, the player gains two free levels of ecl, not bad if you ask me. i would go for sorc4/fighter4, its nothing good but not as bad as the base you have now. mix up the archer-PrCs as you like, read the archer-builds from the ranger-thread, ksbsnowowl ones etc. the solution for XP-penalties are PrCs, just take a minimum of base-levels and enjoy the rest. gs Funny
rilem 04-26-04, 04:12 PM	That's a good point, Mith — even beyond the mechanics of it, favored class should reflect an aspect of culture, not biology. Regarding fighter levels: Yes, 3 levels is suboptimal, but if it's a choice between a feat and, say, Contingency, I say sacrifice the feat.
CompleteSatori 04-26-04, 04:28 PM	But hes not really a Gish, hes an Archer/Sorcerer. I just built his progression to reflect that. And an extra feat is way better on a low casting build than one half level of spells.
Tytalus 04-30-04, 02:54 AM	Thanks for the help, all. I totally agree on the issue of the favored class, but it is not my place to push for that. I do realize that AA is a mediocre concept, but it has flavour - and it is what my friend wanted to play. A few players have non-optimized concepts, but my friend in question really needs some help... Anyway, multiple prestige classes are eyed with suspicion, so I'd like to keep the number down. My suggestions to him were, based on your comments: - Drow2/Fighter4/Sorc1/AA10/DWS3 (if he can convince the DM about the favored class issue and drop that last level of Sorcerer that he only took because of XP penalties). - Drow2/Fighter4/Sorc3/Order of the Bow Initiate7/Peerless Archer3/Something1 - for an archery focus - Drow2/Fighter3/Sorc4/SS3/AA2/EK6 - like rilem suggested. Thanks, rilem, that's a very nice build! My favorite of the three. I'm curious to see which one he likes most...
quetzyl 04-30-04, 04:37 AM	As a serious archer, weapon specialisation is really quite valuable, as you get plenty of opportunities to full attack, with lots of attacks, but find it harder to deal extra damage. Taking Fighter 4 is IMHO worth it to get weapon specialisation in his bow of choice. Cheers, quetzyl
Tytalus 04-30-04, 01:40 PM	Good point quetzyl. Weapon Specialization is an important part of the second option (required for OotBI), and recommended for the first. For the third build, it's optional - but you'd give up 6th level spells for it, so I think it's not quite as useful there.
CompleteSatori 04-30-04, 03:03 PM	Weapon Specialization is no longer a requirement of the OotBI btw. In 3.5 that is. But it is a good feat for a specialist Archer.