Post/Author/DateTime	Post
angelus_obscura 10-11-06, 06:52 PM	Hi guys. I'm making a new character, replacing my half-celestial cleric. That +4 LA does indeed hurt, especially when the party ECL is 8th level. Here is my idea. I'm going for a katana wielding soulknife with abilities tied to shadow. Yea, you should know who this is. :D Enter the shadow-walker template from Unapproachable East (+1 LA). That leaves 7 levels of class(es). Besides the feats from levels 1, 3, 6, we get 10 extra feats (house-rule). Any book is open for use, feat/item-wise. I am also using Dragon # 341 for its Soulknife feats (incl. Practiced Mindblade, Reshape Mind Blade, Shield of Thought, etc). The starting gold is 27K gp. I don't have the ability scores statted out yet, but I do know that the PC's strength and dexterity will be top priority. I'd like to see what builds the people from the boards can come up with that would rock! Let the optimization begin! :D
PhoenixInferno 10-11-06, 07:06 PM	Races of Eberron and Complete Psionic reprinted many of those feats you mention, so I suspect you should use those - if only for the more DM-friendly nature of WotC published books. I would rather use Martial Study (Shadow Hand) than eat the Shadow Walker template. And I think the Dark template (Tome of Magic) is better, anyway.
GaffeR 10-11-06, 07:56 PM	I told you not to use the Half-Celestial, didn't I? :P Anyways, if you can mix in Incarnum and ToB, you might have a decent character. I'd probably run with the dual shortswords as well as Shadowblade and a Shadow hand stance. I agree with Phoenix on the template thing. Oh, and I just noticed the Bastard sword deal. Hrmm.. does Exotic Weapon Master apply to the Soulblade (Soulblade?)? Uncanny Blow would obviously be key. Maybe mix Soulknife with strategically placed levels of Swordsage to get the Shadow Stride/Jaunt/Whatever. Then sprinkle in 4 levels of Telflammar Shadowlord for 3 full attacks a round. I'd suggest skipping the Shadow template and buying a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis when you get the cash (ToM). I'm AFB right now, so i can't offer much more.
angelus_obscura 10-11-06, 08:31 PM	Great start so far! Thanks guys. Yes, Gaffer, you were right. lol. Just tells ya that one should listen to one's ol' gaffer. ;P I totally forgot about Tome of Magic's shadow magic stuff. They're great! I am so using the Shroud of Night and MAYBE the Ring of Nullification. The dark lantern would be very useful in providing battlefield control. Question: would the Shroud's dance of shadows mystery allow me to use my shadow-walker powers? I looked at the Dark creature template and it is inferior to the shadow-walker template. For a +1 LA template, the dark creature has fewer abilities and the extraplanar subtype doesn't help. I would hate to be dismissed constantly from the Material Plane. I don't have access to Tome of Battle, nor does my DM. What is this swordsage that everyone is raving about? I'm thinking of using flurry of blows with my mind blade (katana). Flowing Blade with 1 or 2 levels in monk would help. Daylight Adaptation will take care of the daylight blindness drawback from the template. As you can guess, I'm going for a ninja-like soulknife, and with the stuff from ToM, I can be even more so. Kick ass! Keep em coming! Thanks.
PhoenixInferno 10-11-06, 08:43 PM	I looked at the Dark creature template and it is inferior to the shadow-walker template. For a +1 LA template, the dark creature has fewer abilities and the extraplanar subtype doesn't help. I would hate to be dismissed constantly from the Material Plane. Is it? People keep raving about it. I'll have to take a look for myself.
GaffeR 10-11-06, 09:11 PM	Is it? People keep raving about it. I'll have to take a look for myself. I like it. Shadow Walker has more spell like abilities, but Dark gets you HiPS, cold res 10, +10 to all movement, Darkvision+Sup Low light vision, etc. HiPS is the real seller methinks. I don't have access to Tome of Battle, nor does my DM. What is this swordsage that everyone is raving about? Best. Base. Class. EVAR. 3/4 BAB, 2 high saves, tons of maneuvers (check the ToB excerpt). The maneuvers I mentioned allow you to Teleport as a Standard, Move, and Swift action. As far as a build goes, I'd definately get EWM 2 and TSL 4. Somethin like: Soulknife 5/SA class 1-3/Exotic Weapon Master 2/TSL 4/Soulknife +6-8 As far as sneak attack classes go, there are a lot. I'd suggest using something with full BAB. The SA Fighter variant, Rokugan Ninja, or Generic Warrior would do well. Pick up Uncanny Blow and Flurry as your EWM stunts. Obviously you'll want Power Attack as well as all the pre-reqs. 1. Power Attack, Blind Fight, (WF: Mindblade) 3. EWP (Bastard Sword) 6. (Dodge), Mobility 9. Spring Attack You can adjust feat/class progression accordingly. Elusive Target could be fun at 12th level. Variant Classes: http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/variantClasses.htm Rokugan Ninja: http://www.legendofthefiverings.com/rpg/rokugan_ninja.pdf (a very good fit) Edit: Oh yeah, Soulknife Handbook: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=372176
Tleilaxu_Ghola 10-11-06, 10:01 PM	Best. Base. Class. EVAR. CoDzilla still wins that contest, I'm afraid. I prefer the warblade.
angelus_obscura 10-11-06, 10:25 PM	Then I just might get the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (without the spikes flavor) next, later on. My equipment is as follows so far: 27,000 gp starting gold +2 shadowsilk hide armor shroud of night Mau-Jehe (weapon of legacy) I checked out the EWM. Its Flurry of Strikes applies only to double weapons and spiked chains. Okay, I read the ToB excerpt and I get the gist of maneuvers and stances. What is this Shadow Hand stance? And is SHadowblade the feat from ToB or the PrC from ToM. They both have the same name. I am now intrigued with this swordsage class. Must know more! Wait a minute! In Complete Warrior, the samurai entry states that the katana is for all intents and purposes a bastard sword, as shown in the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) free feat the samurai gets 1st level! So my soulknife can shape his mind blade into a katana. And all I have to do is take the EWP (bastard sword) feat to wield it one handed. HUZZAH! Okay, build so far: Shadow-walker human(?) Monk 2/ Soulknife 5. This is due to change if I fall in love with the swordsage class. Feats (remember, I have 13 feats total, excluding bonus feats from classes): Daylight Adaptation, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword), Flowing Blade, Dodge, Psionic Body, Psionic Weapon, Greater Psionic Weapon, Deep Impact, Psionic Meditation, Practiced Mind Blade, Up The Walls, Mind Cleave. All subject to change after I read up on this swordsage. Thoughts, critiques, builds. All welcome!
GaffeR 10-11-06, 10:51 PM	Ugh, Weapons of Legacy. Oh, I thought the flurry was for all weapons. No matter, the real draw is Uncanny Blow for 2x strength damage if you wield it 2 handed, which you should be for power attack. Shadow Hand stance is simply a stance from the Shadow Hand school. Examples include Child of Shadows (20% concealment when you move 10 feet), Assassin's Stance (2d6 Sneak attack), Step of the Dancing Moth (float 5 feet off the ground and ignore hide/move silently penalties for speed). Shadowblade is a feat from ToB. It lets you apply Dex to damage when in a shadow hand stance and using a shadow hand weapon (dagger, short sword, spiked chain, sai, siangham, unarmed). I really love the Swordsage. Sure, Cleric and Druid are powerful, but I'm sick of those 2 being the default answer to anything. It has mucho martial zen flava'. Check out this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=713640) build as an example of a multiclassed TWFer. Human is good. What's the fascination with Monk 2? You can't flurry with anything but monk weapons or unarmed strikes. It does give you 2 extra feats (Cobra Strike variant would get you dodge/mobility for TSL later), as well as evasion in light armor, but it hurts your (already lame) BAB. Not to mention introducing more MAD.
angelus_obscura 10-11-06, 11:16 PM	You know what, I'll drop Monk. The only reason why I took it was for its flurry of blows in conjunction with the Flowing Blade feat which allows my mind blade to be flurriable. I was also considering the kalashtar race I read in the excerpt that the swordsage also has monk-like style among its many styles/stances/maneuvers. Any flurry-like abilities in there? I also read that they get a wisdom bonus to AC in light or no armor? Is this true, or did I misread something? If it is true, consider that class taken! A sneak attack feature would indeed enhance my "shadowknife". Sneak attack + greater psionic weapon + psychic strike = >D. Sneak attack fighter seems like a good path or the swordsage stance. I'm now tempted to get ToB just for this class! If I combine the Mau-Jehe's 8th level ability to increase my base speed by +5 and Dark template's +10, that's +15 to my speed. ooooooo Mindlink at will is also not somethign to scoff at, and my mindblade now has a ghost touch ability. Also, with Mau-Jehe in one hand, I am free to manifest another mindblade without dividing it into two less powerful blades.
gorfnad the shiznit 10-12-06, 03:05 AM	Nevermind, just noted previous post
PhoenixInferno 10-12-06, 03:09 AM	Yes, Swordsages do get WIS to AC in Light armor. Kalashtar makes an excellent Soulknife race, especially if you can use the substitution levels in Races of Eberron.
Surreal 10-12-06, 03:22 AM	Besides the feats from levels 1, 3, 6, we get 10 extra feats (house-rule). 10 bonus feats?!? :eek: Do you get them all at the beginning? I like the Incarnum idea. You can never have enough essentia.
GaffeR 10-12-06, 03:25 AM	There are some "Flurry-like" maneuvers. A Desert Wind 2 one that grants an extra attack, Dancing/Raging mongoose that add 1/2 attacks per round with weapons you wield, Pounce on a charge, Time stands still which grants 2 full attacks... I love Swordsages.
angelus_obscura 10-12-06, 02:05 PM	Okay, I am now offically a swordsage fanboy!!!! This class is off the charts! I LOVE IT! As you can well see, I got the book. Lol. Okay, NEW build: El'ena, the Shadowknife Shadow-walking kalashtar Swordsage 2/ Soulknife 5 Feats: class bonus- Wild Talent, Weapon Focus (mind blade, Shadow Hand) (13) others so far: general- Daylight Adaptation, Dodge, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword/katana), Great Fortitude, Mobility psionic- Deep Impact, Greater Psionic Weapon, Practiced Mind Blade, Psionic Body, Psionic Weapon, Up The Walls I have room for 2 more feats. I'm thinking about one of the ToB psionic feats. Last one Power Attack? I will take human if no power point using feats are taken. Kalashtar if it is taken.
angelus_obscura 10-12-06, 10:43 PM	Are Instant Clarity and Psychic Renewal good ToB psionic feats to take? Can you use maneuvers AND psychic strike AND psionic weapon at the same time? If so, then Instant Clarity would be extremely useful. Okay, here are my 6 maneuvers and 2 stances from the swordsage levels: Clinging Shadow Strike, Moment of Perfect Mind, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Shadow Blade Technique, Sudden Leap, Wind Stride Child of Shadow, Hunter's Sense Is there any other way for a katana wielder to use Dexterity for attack rolls with her blade without resorting to Iajutsu Master?
GaffeR 10-13-06, 12:09 AM	Instant Clarity (F)+ Psionic Feats + Single Attack Maneuvers: Mix diamond nightmare blade (DM8, M) with Deep Impact for example. You can regain your focus after the deadly attack and be ready to serve up another deep impact attack the next round. This only works 3/day though. As far as the dex thing, I dunno. A lenient version of Weapon Finesse? Maybe swap everything but light weapons for the katana. Also, why so much shadow hand? Katana/Bastard sword won't work with the Shadowblade. Double shortswords, on the other hand...
angelus_obscura 10-13-06, 10:17 AM	Oh I know that. I chose Shadow Hand for an optional attack/combat form. I will be using both a katana and a shortsword, together in one encounter or separately in different encounters. The shadow hand maneuvers and stances and the shroud of night's mysteries will enable me to use my shadow/dark based shadow-walker powers. Would that work? I'm not entirely sure.
angelus_obscura 10-15-06, 03:25 PM	Okay. I dumped the katana idea. Double short swords ARE better with the shadow hand discipline. I took the Shadow Blade feat and weapon finesse. My new character joined the game as we all headed into this mysterious wizard's tower that appeared in the mountains. Apparently, it traveled to many other planes and times due to a mad wizard's temporal experiments. Now dead, the tower was inhabited by slaadi, a mind flayer, and various other chaos beasts (think Even Horizon). The shadowknife rocked! I managed to save us all from a horrible death by a gray slaad (our wizard/rogue was power word stunned, I nearly died from a direct hit from a lightning bolt, and our monk was being hugged to death by a blue slaad). Thank the gods no one except fiends and shades can see in magical darkness. And double thankful that the range of a dimension door is so freakin LONG. But yea, running over walls and ceilings to bypass walls of fire, dimension door to bypass a warded gate, and darkness to confuse our enemies while we escaped was so awesome. Nearly died too trying to do a last ditch dimension door with all of my friends in tow to leave the tower (680 feet jump!). Yikes. Swordsage works REALLY well with soulknife. Okay, final build with ability score stats. Azhure, the Shadowknife CG human shadow-walker Swordsage 2/ Soulknife 5 Str 13, Dex 20, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 13 Feats: Daylight Adaptation, Dodge, Great Fortitude, Instant Clarity, Mobility, Practiced Mind Blade, Psionic Body, Psionic Meditation, Psionic Weapon, Shadow Blade, Spring Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Up The Walls, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (mind blade, Shadow Hand), Wild Talent Gear: Mau-Jehe, +2 shadowsilk hide, shroud of night, amulet of natural armor +1, vest of resistance +2, handy haversack I haven't really found a use for Instant Clarity, so should I just replace that with something else? Any other feats I should replace to make her better? What do you think?
GaffeR 10-15-06, 09:23 PM	No real suggestions, my eyes tend to glaze over when I see that many feats. I'm glad you're enjoying it though! Might wanna think forward to some tactical feats (Elusive Target, Gloom Razor) or some Combat form feats, if you can use PHB 2. Oh! What is shadowsilk hide and where can i get some? Also, shroud of night?
angelus_obscura 10-15-06, 10:48 PM	PHB2 is allowed, but most of those feats have a high BAB requirement (which as a soulknife I can't meet yet). Shadowsilk is the new material introduced in Tome of Magic, in the Shadow Magic chapter. It reduces armor check penalty by 2, raises max dex by 2, halves the weight, and makes armor one category lighter. It can only be applied to leather, banded, and hide armor (and studded I think). Shroud of Night is a shadow magic wondrous item, taking vest slot. The lesser version gives you a +2 deflection bonus and 2 mysteries once per day (shadow skin and dancing shadows). The greater version has +4 deflection and more powerful mysteries. It's great, if a bit expensive. :)
angelus_obscura 10-17-06, 04:12 PM	Okay, time for a build progression strategy. I intend to go Shadowlord in the near future. I have all prerequisites filled except one: the sneak attack! AHHH! As a soulknife, I do not get access to sneak attacks, BUT, can the Assassin's Stance stance qualify me for the PrC, provided I have it active all times? If so, then my build would go like this: Swordsage 2/ Soulknife 5/ SK+1/ SS+3/ Shadowlord 6/ SK+ Is this possible? Oh, one more thing. My DM allows Unearthed Arcana. How does this buying out LA work?
Anauroch 10-17-06, 04:25 PM	Oh, one more thing. My DM allows Unearthed Arcana. How does this buying out LA work? Read here (Oh, one more thing. My DM allows Unearthed Arcana. How does this buying out LA work?)... ;)
GaffeR 10-17-06, 05:17 PM	Okay, time for a build progression strategy. I intend to go Shadowlord in the near future. I have all prerequisites filled except one: the sneak attack! AHHH! As a soulknife, I do not get access to sneak attacks, BUT, can the Assassin's Stance stance qualify me for the PrC, provided I have it active all times? If so, then my build would go like this: Swordsage 2/ Soulknife 5/ SK+1/ SS+3/ Shadowlord 6/ SK+ Is this possible? Oh, one more thing. My DM allows Unearthed Arcana. How does this buying out LA work? It depends on the DM. RAW, IIRC, Assassin's stance qualifies. Also, I probably would drop TSL after 4 levels. Less BAB loss and the killer ability is at lvl 4. You'll also want to arrange class levels so that you can dip into a level of SS when you need another Shadow Jump maneuver. Get all three, take three full attacks every other round, cackle maniacally. Edit: I'm AFB, but if you tell me the levels of the Shadow Jumps I can try to think up a progression. Also, how much SK do you want? Consider your poor, poor BAB.
angelus_obscura 10-17-06, 11:11 PM	Anauroch, the link is dead. It could be just me but I'm not sure. Gaffer, do you mean what levels do I get shadow jaunt (maneuver), shadow walks (Shadow-walker/Shadowlord) or dimension door (Shadow-walker)? Just in case, I'll provide all. :D Shadow Jaunt is a 3rd level maneuver from the Shadow Hand discipline. (query: can this be used many times per day since it is a refreshable maneuver?) I would get access to this maneuver at Swordsage level 5. Shadow Walk is both a shadow-walker and shadowlord ability. I get it from the former at 11th level, 3/day at 19th. Shadowlord gives me +1 level 3 of the PrC. Shadowlord gives shadow jump every level, 20 feet/ class level. You're right, TSL is only worth it up to 4th level.
GaffeR 10-18-06, 01:26 AM	Oh my.. bad luck. I lost the window as I was typing! Curses! Ok, brief version. You want three maneuvers: Shadow Jaunt (SH 3), Shadow Stride (SH 5), and Shadow Blink (SH 7). You can use all three in one round to make three full attacks with 4th lvl TSL ability. Adaptive Style lets you reset it. This combo can be used every other round (Adaptive Style cooldown round in between). NASTY. Ok, your first 7 levels suck as far as progression goes, but don't worry young Padawan, we can save it. Note, this was a freakin pain. Go: SS 2/SK 5/SS +1*/SK +1/SS +1/SK +2/SS +1**/TSL 4/XYZ +3 SS = Swordsage SK = Soulknife TSL = Telflammar Shadowlord Levels with asterisks denote levels with a Shadow Teleport. You pick up Shadow Jaunt at level 8, Shadow Stide and Assassin's stance at level 13. Level 10 gets you a swap for a 4th level max maneuver. After that, you need to decide how you want to spend those last 3 levels. I'd probably go: SK +2/SS +1 This gets you IL 13, Shadow Blink, and a swap up to a 7th level maneuver. Unfortunately, this build only gets you 14 BAB. It's damn hard to get 16 BAB with this idea using Soulknife. You NEED at least 6 levels of full IL classes to get 7th level maneuvers. AND you can't afford to lose more than 4 BAB the whole time. You lose 1 from TSL, at least 1 from SS. Maybe something basic like: Swordsage 4/Bloodclaw Master 2/TSL 4... then pick up at least 9 BAB in 10 levels. Soulknife 4/Full bab 6 works, but it doesn't have much SKness. SS 8/FullBAB 2 works too, but then you have NO Soulknife. Anyways, if you don't care about BAB, use the build I posted above. It should work fine, if slightly less than perfect. I've got an Excel chart I can send ya if you need more clarification, just outlines BAB and IL progression, but it shouldn't be too hard to follow. Good luck. Edit: Oh right, LA buyoff. For you, I think it works thusly: Hit level 3, pay 1000xp, remove LA forever. You must hit 3*your LA, so 3 for +1, 6 for +2, and so on. At that level, and every 3rd thereafter if you have LA left, you pay 1000*your LA, so 1000 for +1, 2000 for +2, and so on. This probably isn't exact, but I'm pretty sure about your case, as I played a LA bought off Half-Giant PsyWar.
angelus_obscura 10-18-06, 01:55 AM	Koolness. I don't mind the small BAB. Besides, there are so many other factors in an attack roll. Shadow Jaunt @ next level would indeed be a big pay off. In our campaign, the DM puts alot of emphasis on professions or craft skills. So much so that we have to have a means of upkeep. As my chosen profession, I decided to be a courier/spy. I deliver/pickup goods (be they discreet or just messages) and with my ability to get in and out of places quick and unseen, I'll be able to reel in alot of income. Shadow Jaunt just adds to this, makign me faster at my job. Whoohoo No Excel chart needed, but thanks!
Anauroch 10-18-06, 03:35 AM	Hm... sorry about the dead link. Just go to the SRD webiste and search for 'reducing level adjustments'. There you have it. Edit: Oh right, LA buyoff. For you, I think it works thusly: Hit level 3, pay 1000xp, remove LA forever. You must hit 3*your LA, so 3 for +1, 6 for +2, and so on. At that level, and every 3rd thereafter if you have LA left, you pay 1000*your LA, so 1000 for +1, 2000 for +2, and so on. This probably isn't exact, but I'm pretty sure about your case, as I played a LA bought off Half-Giant PsyWar. Not quite right imo. The character must pay an amount of XP equal to (his current ECL -1) × 1,000. This amount is immediately deducted from the character's XP total. A character with a LA of +1 needs to get his 3rd class level. That would make him ECL 4 (3 class levels +1 LA). According to the formula, your character will then have to pay (ECL-1)x1,000 XP = 3,000 XP to buy off that +1 LA. His ECL is now 3 and he receives XP according to this.