A Kobold Damage Dealer? [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Kobold Damage Dealer? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gerdreg
02-01-06, 08:18 AM Monk 6/ Ranger 6/ Sacred Fist 8
BAB +18
Unarmed Damage: 4d8 (+2d6 for Sacred Flames and Blades of Fire)
Full Attack: 4 Primary, 3 Secondary, 1 Flurry, 4 Rapid Strikes
Total possible damage in one round = 48d8 + 24d6 + (9xStr Bonus) + (3x1/2Str Bonus) + 60 (+5 Enhancement)

Draconic Rite of Passage: Enlarge Person as a spell-like ability once per day.

1) Dragonwrought
3) Ascetic Hunter
6) Combat Casting
9) Improved Natural Attack
12) Rapid Strike
15) Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
18) Improved Rapid Strike
M1) Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist
M2) Combat Reflexes
M6) Improved Trip
R1) Track
R2) Two-Weapon Fighting
R3) Kobold Endurance
R6) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Gerdreg
02-01-06, 09:34 AM Wow...nuthin? I know it's not even close to any records but c'mon, it's a kobold! What would you say if a kobold hit you 12 times for a total of 650 pts. of damage?

As an aside, I think it would be fun build to play (picture Yoda for all you RPers out there) and it doesn't get out of hand until the last few levels. If I were to play this character, I would probably take Mage Armor instead of Enlarge Person, as damage is good enough, but defense is a bit lacking.

A less melee oriented but more powerful build would be a Monk/ Sorcerer/ Enlightened Fist. Just substitute Ascetic Mage for Ascetic Hunter and drop the Two-Weapon Fighting and Ranger feats. As Sorcerer is a preferred class, you do not need to keep it even with Monk levels either.
Xahr
02-01-06, 11:10 AM I might be wrong, but i don't believe that Two-Weapon Fighting, Flurry of Blows and unarmed strikes stack. Not sure there is any RAW backing this up, but there has been a thread about a little while ago.

But i love the idea of a Kobold Monk, kicking and punching harder than the fighter with his Greatsword :D
hogarth
02-01-06, 11:20 AM I'm not convinced that a monk has a "pair of natural weapons" as required for the Rapidstrike feat. A monk has one natural weapon -- an unarmed strike. An off-hand unarmed strike isn't a separate weapon, IMO, and it's not one of a "pair" at any rate.
MechaboyDos
02-01-06, 11:22 AM Kobolds have claw and bite attacks don't they? I'd think that would count for natural attacks, although I'm not sure how they would interact with the Monk Unarmed Strike.

And TWF and Flurry do stack. I believe it's addressed in the FAQ.

EDIT: Ah, here we go, it says that natural attacks are not eligible for flurry. So Rapidstrike seems kind of wasted.
hogarth
02-01-06, 11:26 AM Kobolds have claw and bite attacks don't they?
Not usually.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/kobold.htm
MechaboyDos
02-01-06, 11:29 AM Not usually.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/kobold.htm

Ahh, I stand corrected then.
Gerdreg
02-01-06, 12:10 PM As per the FAQ, Unarmed Attacks, Flurry, and TWF all stack. The issue then is whether Unarmed Attacks qualify for Rapid Strike. As above, Rapid Strike requires Natural Attacks. The PH covers this nicely in that Unarmed Attacks are considered Natural Weapons AND Manufactured Weapons for purposes of feats (see the example in the FAQ of a Monk using Improved Natural Attack on his Unarmed Attacks). The last criteria is whether Monks have a "pair" of natural weapons. Well, what are their weapons (kobold or otherwise); Hands, feet? Either way, they have two of them. I don't even think this is a matter of RAW vs. RAI. TWF, Flurry, and Rapid Strike all have different requirements (Dex, Class ability, BAB) that do not inherently conflict with one another.
Gerdreg
02-01-06, 12:25 PM EDIT: Ah, here we go, it says that natural attacks are not eligible for flurry. So Rapidstrike seems kind of wasted.

I am not even sure where you are going with this. This is out of context to say the least. Monks Unarmed Strikes are treated as Natural Attacks and Manufactured Weapons per the PH, so does that mean they can't Flurry? Of coarse not. I'll try to explain is simply, the above character is using his Unarmed Strike as a Manufactured Weapon for Flurrying AND he is using his Unarmed Strike as a Natural Weapon for Rapid Striking. I hope this clears it up.
hogarth
02-01-06, 12:45 PM As per the FAQ, Unarmed Attacks, Flurry, and TWF all stack. The issue then is whether Unarmed Attacks qualify for Rapid Strike. As above, Rapid Strike requires Natural Attacks. The PH covers this nicely in that Unarmed Attacks are considered Natural Weapons AND Manufactured Weapons for purposes of feats. The last criteria is whether Monks have a "pair" of natural weapons. Well, what are their weapons (kobold or otherwise); Hands, feet? Either way, they have two of them.
But the monk's natural attack isn't called "hand" or "foot" or "elbow". It's called "unarmed attack" or "unarmed strike". Consider this snippet from the SRD:
When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary.

The primary weapon is given in the creature’s Attack entry, and the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature’s Full Attack entry. A creature’s primary natural weapon is its most effective natural attack, usually by virtue of the creature’s physiology, training, or innate talent with the weapon. An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature’s full attack bonus.

So if we go by the assumption that (say) a monk has 8 primary natural attacks (hands, feet, knees, elbows), then she should get 8 attacks at her base attack bonus, right? Or are some of them secondary?

If you really do think that each pair of body parts counts as a pair of natural weapons, why not take Rapidstrike more than once? I believe it states something like: "You can take this feat once for each pair of natural weapons you have."
Gerdreg
02-01-06, 01:02 PM So if we go by the assumption that (say) a monk has 8 primary natural attacks (hands, feet, knees, elbows), then she should get 8 attacks at her base attack bonus, right? Or are some of them secondary?

If you really do think that each pair of body parts counts as a pair of natural weapons, why not take Rapidstrike more than once? I believe it states something like: "You can take this feat once for each pair of natural weapons you have."

Your kind of doing the same thing as above Hogarth. Becuase the Monks attacks are one thing, it does not mean they cannot be another also. Consider Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus. Both modify your chance to hit. You can attack with Skill and Finesse at the same time.

It says on page 41 of the PH that there is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a Monk making Unarmed Attacks. How can this be when the FAQ clearly states that Unarmed Strikes can be used with TWF? It's simple, the attacks are just being used in two different ways at the same time. There is no conflict.

Finally, and the part of my argument that should be indisputable, how can a Monk use TWO Weapon Fighting, if he doesn't have at least Two Weapons? Answer, he cannot, therefore he has at leats two weapons. I undertstand your above argument that the PH doesn't quantify exactly how many there are, but Rapid Strike doesn't require us to know how many they have total, only that they have a "pair" of Natural Attacks, which in the above build is a "pair" of Unarmed Strikes. As you stated above Unarmed Strike doesn't specify a part of the body, so any 2 useable body parts would constitute a "pair" of Unarmed Strikes. If this were not so, then you could not have two Unarmed Strikes for TWF either, whcih we know you can.
MechaboyDos
02-01-06, 03:58 PM I am not even sure where you are going with this. This is out of context to say the least. Monks Unarmed Strikes are treated as Natural Attacks and Manufactured Weapons per the PH, so does that mean they can't Flurry? Of coarse not. I'll try to explain is simply, the above character is using his Unarmed Strike as a Manufactured Weapon for Flurrying AND he is using his Unarmed Strike as a Natural Weapon for Rapid Striking. I hope this clears it up.

I'm reading straight off the FAQ;

A natural weapon (any natural weapon) is neither an unarmed strike nor a manufactured weapon, so you can't use it with a flurry.

What I had forgotten was what you mentioned regarding the Monk's unarmed strike being treated as both a natural and manufactured weapon for the purpose of qualifying for feats and whatnot. And with the recent ruling that Monks qualify for Improved Natural Attack, I don't see why they wouldn't qualify for Rapidstrike. My earlier statement was referring to things such as claw and bite attacks, which I thought Kobolds had but it turns out they don't. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Gerdreg
02-01-06, 04:18 PM No worries. I apologize if I seemed ingrateful for the input, I just love a good debate ;)
Gerdreg
02-01-06, 11:37 PM Bah...I lose again. CustServ says your whole body counts as one natural weapon and not a pair, so Unarmed Strike cannot qualify for Rapid Strike.
GaffeR
02-01-06, 11:40 PM Bah...I lose again. CustServ says your whole body counts as one natural weapon and not a pair, so Unarmed Strike cannot qualify for Rapid Strike.
We're going by CustServ's rule now? God help us.
Reinhart
02-02-06, 12:10 AM :evillaugh

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gerdreg 02-01-06, 08:18 AM	Monk 6/ Ranger 6/ Sacred Fist 8 BAB +18 Unarmed Damage: 4d8 (+2d6 for Sacred Flames and Blades of Fire) Full Attack: 4 Primary, 3 Secondary, 1 Flurry, 4 Rapid Strikes Total possible damage in one round = 48d8 + 24d6 + (9xStr Bonus) + (3x1/2Str Bonus) + 60 (+5 Enhancement) Draconic Rite of Passage: Enlarge Person as a spell-like ability once per day. 1) Dragonwrought 3) Ascetic Hunter 6) Combat Casting 9) Improved Natural Attack 12) Rapid Strike 15) Greater Two-Weapon Fighting 18) Improved Rapid Strike M1) Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist M2) Combat Reflexes M6) Improved Trip R1) Track R2) Two-Weapon Fighting R3) Kobold Endurance R6) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Gerdreg 02-01-06, 09:34 AM	Wow...nuthin? I know it's not even close to any records but c'mon, it's a kobold! What would you say if a kobold hit you 12 times for a total of 650 pts. of damage? As an aside, I think it would be fun build to play (picture Yoda for all you RPers out there) and it doesn't get out of hand until the last few levels. If I were to play this character, I would probably take Mage Armor instead of Enlarge Person, as damage is good enough, but defense is a bit lacking. A less melee oriented but more powerful build would be a Monk/ Sorcerer/ Enlightened Fist. Just substitute Ascetic Mage for Ascetic Hunter and drop the Two-Weapon Fighting and Ranger feats. As Sorcerer is a preferred class, you do not need to keep it even with Monk levels either.
Xahr 02-01-06, 11:10 AM	I might be wrong, but i don't believe that Two-Weapon Fighting, Flurry of Blows and unarmed strikes stack. Not sure there is any RAW backing this up, but there has been a thread about a little while ago. But i love the idea of a Kobold Monk, kicking and punching harder than the fighter with his Greatsword :D
hogarth 02-01-06, 11:20 AM	I'm not convinced that a monk has a "pair of natural weapons" as required for the Rapidstrike feat. A monk has one natural weapon -- an unarmed strike. An off-hand unarmed strike isn't a separate weapon, IMO, and it's not one of a "pair" at any rate.
MechaboyDos 02-01-06, 11:22 AM	Kobolds have claw and bite attacks don't they? I'd think that would count for natural attacks, although I'm not sure how they would interact with the Monk Unarmed Strike. And TWF and Flurry do stack. I believe it's addressed in the FAQ. EDIT: Ah, here we go, it says that natural attacks are not eligible for flurry. So Rapidstrike seems kind of wasted.
hogarth 02-01-06, 11:26 AM	Kobolds have claw and bite attacks don't they? Not usually. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/kobold.htm
MechaboyDos 02-01-06, 11:29 AM	Not usually. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/kobold.htm Ahh, I stand corrected then.
Gerdreg 02-01-06, 12:10 PM	As per the FAQ, Unarmed Attacks, Flurry, and TWF all stack. The issue then is whether Unarmed Attacks qualify for Rapid Strike. As above, Rapid Strike requires Natural Attacks. The PH covers this nicely in that Unarmed Attacks are considered Natural Weapons AND Manufactured Weapons for purposes of feats (see the example in the FAQ of a Monk using Improved Natural Attack on his Unarmed Attacks). The last criteria is whether Monks have a "pair" of natural weapons. Well, what are their weapons (kobold or otherwise); Hands, feet? Either way, they have two of them. I don't even think this is a matter of RAW vs. RAI. TWF, Flurry, and Rapid Strike all have different requirements (Dex, Class ability, BAB) that do not inherently conflict with one another.
Gerdreg 02-01-06, 12:25 PM	EDIT: Ah, here we go, it says that natural attacks are not eligible for flurry. So Rapidstrike seems kind of wasted. I am not even sure where you are going with this. This is out of context to say the least. Monks Unarmed Strikes are treated as Natural Attacks and Manufactured Weapons per the PH, so does that mean they can't Flurry? Of coarse not. I'll try to explain is simply, the above character is using his Unarmed Strike as a Manufactured Weapon for Flurrying AND he is using his Unarmed Strike as a Natural Weapon for Rapid Striking. I hope this clears it up.
hogarth 02-01-06, 12:45 PM	As per the FAQ, Unarmed Attacks, Flurry, and TWF all stack. The issue then is whether Unarmed Attacks qualify for Rapid Strike. As above, Rapid Strike requires Natural Attacks. The PH covers this nicely in that Unarmed Attacks are considered Natural Weapons AND Manufactured Weapons for purposes of feats. The last criteria is whether Monks have a "pair" of natural weapons. Well, what are their weapons (kobold or otherwise); Hands, feet? Either way, they have two of them. But the monk's natural attack isn't called "hand" or "foot" or "elbow". It's called "unarmed attack" or "unarmed strike". Consider this snippet from the SRD: When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary. The primary weapon is given in the creature’s Attack entry, and the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature’s Full Attack entry. A creature’s primary natural weapon is its most effective natural attack, usually by virtue of the creature’s physiology, training, or innate talent with the weapon. An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature’s full attack bonus. So if we go by the assumption that (say) a monk has 8 primary natural attacks (hands, feet, knees, elbows), then she should get 8 attacks at her base attack bonus, right? Or are some of them secondary? If you really do think that each pair of body parts counts as a pair of natural weapons, why not take Rapidstrike more than once? I believe it states something like: "You can take this feat once for each pair of natural weapons you have."
Gerdreg 02-01-06, 01:02 PM	So if we go by the assumption that (say) a monk has 8 primary natural attacks (hands, feet, knees, elbows), then she should get 8 attacks at her base attack bonus, right? Or are some of them secondary? If you really do think that each pair of body parts counts as a pair of natural weapons, why not take Rapidstrike more than once? I believe it states something like: "You can take this feat once for each pair of natural weapons you have." Your kind of doing the same thing as above Hogarth. Becuase the Monks attacks are one thing, it does not mean they cannot be another also. Consider Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus. Both modify your chance to hit. You can attack with Skill and Finesse at the same time. It says on page 41 of the PH that there is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a Monk making Unarmed Attacks. How can this be when the FAQ clearly states that Unarmed Strikes can be used with TWF? It's simple, the attacks are just being used in two different ways at the same time. There is no conflict. Finally, and the part of my argument that should be indisputable, how can a Monk use TWO Weapon Fighting, if he doesn't have at least Two Weapons? Answer, he cannot, therefore he has at leats two weapons. I undertstand your above argument that the PH doesn't quantify exactly how many there are, but Rapid Strike doesn't require us to know how many they have total, only that they have a "pair" of Natural Attacks, which in the above build is a "pair" of Unarmed Strikes. As you stated above Unarmed Strike doesn't specify a part of the body, so any 2 useable body parts would constitute a "pair" of Unarmed Strikes. If this were not so, then you could not have two Unarmed Strikes for TWF either, whcih we know you can.
MechaboyDos 02-01-06, 03:58 PM	I am not even sure where you are going with this. This is out of context to say the least. Monks Unarmed Strikes are treated as Natural Attacks and Manufactured Weapons per the PH, so does that mean they can't Flurry? Of coarse not. I'll try to explain is simply, the above character is using his Unarmed Strike as a Manufactured Weapon for Flurrying AND he is using his Unarmed Strike as a Natural Weapon for Rapid Striking. I hope this clears it up. I'm reading straight off the FAQ; A natural weapon (any natural weapon) is neither an unarmed strike nor a manufactured weapon, so you can't use it with a flurry. What I had forgotten was what you mentioned regarding the Monk's unarmed strike being treated as both a natural and manufactured weapon for the purpose of qualifying for feats and whatnot. And with the recent ruling that Monks qualify for Improved Natural Attack, I don't see why they wouldn't qualify for Rapidstrike. My earlier statement was referring to things such as claw and bite attacks, which I thought Kobolds had but it turns out they don't. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Gerdreg 02-01-06, 04:18 PM	No worries. I apologize if I seemed ingrateful for the input, I just love a good debate ;)
Gerdreg 02-01-06, 11:37 PM	Bah...I lose again. CustServ says your whole body counts as one natural weapon and not a pair, so Unarmed Strike cannot qualify for Rapid Strike.
GaffeR 02-01-06, 11:40 PM	Bah...I lose again. CustServ says your whole body counts as one natural weapon and not a pair, so Unarmed Strike cannot qualify for Rapid Strike. We're going by CustServ's rule now? God help us.
Reinhart 02-02-06, 12:10 AM	:evillaugh