Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ShneekeyTheLost 09-14-06, 11:13 AM	Okay, Pun-Pun takes advantage of an infinite loop to do pretty much anything and everything,which effectively gives him infinite stats, hp, caster levels, manifester levels, and the ability to emulate the ability of just about anything. However There's one thing he cannot do: He cannot automatically gain permission to gain entry into a PrC. Some PrC's require certain permissions. Furthermore, he cannot have an infinite number of dieties which he worships. This further limits his selection. As such, there is no way he can emulate the abilities from these PrC's. About the closest he can come is to use Dominate Monster to force a person to accept him, however that only works on mortals, not on dieties. For example, doesn't Initiate of Mystra requre at least worshiping Mystra if not actually having her permission/being selected by her? Since Pun-Pun cannot force Mystra to accept him, he cannot gain the spellcasting in an AMF ability they possess (although he may be able to gain it from another source). This is a possibly theoretical way to obtain abilities that Pun-Pun, in fact, does NOT have, which may lead to a method of defeating him. And if Pun-Pun did have some way of manipulating and/or controlling dieties, then the whole point is moot, because he could simply pull an 'a stitch in time' scenario an infinite number of times and control an infinite number of beings, and own the entire cosmos. No one would be able to harm him because he would instantly gain control over every being in his sensory range (effectively unlimited) the moment they are born/created/whatever and simply order them to not hurt him or do anything which might remove his control.
Xeraph 09-14-06, 11:18 AM	*Grabs a sixpack and a bowl of popcorn* :cool:
Tempest Stormwind 09-14-06, 11:30 AM	*sigh* So what if he can't qualify for Dwoemerkeeper (say) because he doesn't worship Mystra? He can just Manipulate Form their abilities onto himself without levels in the PrC anyway. Ditto for Initiate of Mystra, but as a feat (or he could just use other methods to shape the AMF, but that's beside the point). The one and only PrC used (in one possible PP configuration) is Master of Many Forms (no RP requirement). And even that's not strictly necessary, given the raw power of Shapechange.
Midnight_v 09-14-06, 12:26 PM	MAYN! I love these Pun-PUN posts! Did they diffuse the dieties preventing that? I hear they're errrat'ing manipulate form. (Pulls up a seat next to Xeraph, calls to order a pizza... "Hello... Yea, let me have....")
Hyfigh 09-14-06, 12:32 PM	Does it even matter? Like Tempest said, he can Manipulate Form to obtain the abilities. All presitge class abilities fall under extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural which MF can grant perminantly to the recipient. Thus he doesn't need levels in a prestige class. Heck, he doesn't need levels (aside from the obvious 5) because their is no limit to the number of abilities he can grant himself. I can't imagine why they would need to errat MF. Any DM that lets it be abused shouldn' be DM'ing...
Tleilaxu_Ghola 09-15-06, 02:07 PM	It is an interesting point. One can have a feat or ability, but if one does not qualify for said feat/ability, then one cannot make use of it. An example would be the divine proxy. You gain all the SDAs of the deity who made you a proxy, but if you don't meet the pre-reqs, you cannot use them.
Hyfigh 09-15-06, 02:51 PM	That is tough to say. The abilities listed within a prestige class don't specifically state you have to meet any requirements to use the ability. Granted, you need to meet requirements to enter certain classes, but many PrC's have the same abilities but not the same requirements. As the abilities themselves don't have any written restriction, I would personally rule that it can be used.
LordBOB777 09-15-06, 03:20 PM	*BOB brings his own comfy seat and pulls up next to Xeraph and midnight_v* "Who wants Salsa?"
Zendu 09-15-06, 03:29 PM	Ignoring the obvious MF loopholes, he can always teleport himself to any class whos abilities he cant get, and use his silitithid savant abilities to grab them.
Dark Brandon 09-15-06, 05:08 PM	Question? If punpun is so powerful, does he stay level 5 forever since he can't really get EXP any other way?
1337Ninja 09-15-06, 05:15 PM	Nope. He may be all-powerful, but his ECL is still 5. Nowhere in any books (that I own, anyway) does it state the being a limitless DvR, omnipotent, indestructible deity increases your ECL.
FriendlyFrog 09-15-06, 05:21 PM	However, Pun-Pun still can utilize a number of cheesy tricks to give him NI hit die.
Hyfigh 09-15-06, 05:54 PM	To add to the point of my post, most prestige class requirements only invlove BAB, saves, and skills. Pun-pun has essentially NI for almost every skill, save, and his BAB would be based on a NI HD. If you wanted to make a PrC ability have the requirements of the entry into the PrC, he can still easily make them.
jstorrie 09-15-06, 06:11 PM	The key to understanding Pun-Pun: Anything that can be done in-game, Pun-Pun can do. If any class feature, feat, or ability exists, Pun-Pun can have it. The only way to defeat Pun-Pun is to hide behind something that can't be done in game. This is why you see a variety of conceptual attacks involving, for example, doing things inside a time stop: the game rules do not allow any counter for this. If any counter was available, a Pun-Pun could use it. If Pun-Pun isn't a member of a thieves' guild, he can't take levels in Nightsong Enforcer, sure, because the rules simply state that you can't take levels in it if you don't. But any class features the Nightsong Enforcer has, Pun-Pun may simply take.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 09-15-06, 06:47 PM	That is tough to say. The abilities listed within a prestige class don't specifically state you have to meet any requirements to use the ability. Granted, you need to meet requirements to enter certain classes, but many PrC's have the same abilities but not the same requirements. As the abilities themselves don't have any written restriction, I would personally rule that it can be used. Except that this ignores the page 16 rules found in complete warrior. Essentially those rules state that if you no longer qualify for the prestige class that you are in, you lose the benefits of any class features and special abilities associated with that PrC. The same is true for feats -- Pun-Pun, to my knowledge, cannot grant himself alignment subtypes. So alignments may cause problems. Other issues may come up. Bottom line: no one said that pun-pun can't give himself any ability, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he can use all of those abilities. A simple example is the monk's AC bonus -- he can get the ability, but if he wears armor it grants him no benefits. If Pun-Pun isn't a member of a thieves' guild, he can't take levels in Nightsong Enforcer, sure, because the rules simply state that you can't take levels in it if you don't. But any class features the Nightsong Enforcer has, Pun-Pun may simply take. Hard to say. If he does not meet the pre-reqs for the class, how can he qualify for the abilities of it? Like I said, he can take them, but if he does not qualify the rules do not allow you to use them.
Richmud 09-15-06, 07:10 PM	Hard to say. If he does not meet the pre-reqs for the class, how can he qualify for the abilities of it? Like I said, he can take them, but if he does not qualify the rules do not allow you to use them. He doesn't need to qualify for the ability he simply gives himself a copy of the ability not a copy of the prerequisets. Technically Pun-Pun can give himself abilities that don't even exist, but for there to be any chance to defeat him it was decided that he would only take abilities that duplicate ones that already exist.
X-Codes 09-15-06, 07:46 PM	Pun-Pun doesn't even need to be able to use all abilities IMO. Manipulate Form gives him every immunity in the game which makes only a scant few attacks effective against him which Pun-Pun can simply strip off an offending attacker.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 09-15-06, 08:20 PM	He doesn't need to qualify for the ability he simply gives himself a copy of the ability not a copy of the prerequisets. Technically Pun-Pun can give himself abilities that don't even exist, but for there to be any chance to defeat him it was decided that he would only take abilities that duplicate ones that already exist. Show me where in the rules of manipulate form that is says that abilities granted are automatically usable by the creature in question. Until you show me that's true, the current rules precedence about qualifying for an ability should still stand.
Prominence 09-15-06, 09:44 PM	Show me where in the rules of manipulate form that is says that abilities granted are automatically usable by the creature in question. Until you show me that's true, the current rules precedence about qualifying for an ability should still stand. Is there anything stopping him from adding "This ability, regardless of anything previously stated, is usable by Pun-Pun."? Anyway, pretty sure illithid savant's ability would let him use any ability he stole, regardless of being in the class or not.
Tempest Stormwind 09-15-06, 10:07 PM	TG, that is an amazing point. Sadly, take a look at the Creature X argument posited by Lokiyn. Essentially, this means that any ability that references its user is usable by that user, regardless of the initial wording of that ability. It's what allows things like your very own Legion to work, amongst other things.
jstorrie 09-15-06, 10:08 PM	If you grant someone an ability, you are granting them the power to do something. That just sort of logically follows from the basic precepts of English language. Abilities aren't tied to classes and don't directly depend on them. Do you have to be a Rogue 2 to use evasion? No, you could have it racially, or from another class, or from a magical item. Once you have an ability, unless it has specifically stated prerequisites, you can use it.
Seerow 09-15-06, 10:16 PM	*grabs a handful of popcorn and sits down with the others* Anybody got some coke?
Richmud 09-15-06, 10:22 PM	Show me where in the rules of manipulate form that is says that abilities granted are automatically usable by the creature in question. Until you show me that's true, the current rules precedence about qualifying for an ability should still stand. I've been under the impression Pun-Pun can actually create abilities that don't exist and as opposed to actually giving himself a class ability he simply creates the same ability for himself
Previn 09-15-06, 10:38 PM	Show me where in the rules of manipulate form that is says that abilities granted are automatically usable by the creature in question. Until you show me that's true, the current rules precedence about qualifying for an ability should still stand. You don't quality for abilities, you quality for PrCs. The two are not synonymous.
Pauper 09-15-06, 11:34 PM	You don't quality for abilities, you quality for PrCs. The two are not synonymous. Yep, this is the key point. If Pun-Pun were gaining, for instance, the 'acquire special attack or special ability 1' ability of the Illithid Savant because he'd given himself 5 levels of Illithid Savant, then not having access to those five levels of Illithid Savant would indeed deprive him of that ability. However, he's not giving himself 5 levels of Illithid Savant; he's giving himself the ability. The ability, strictly stated, has no limitation or prerequisite - it's the manner in which the ability was gained that creates a potential limitation. (Edit: I just realized that there are, in fact, a number of PrC abilities where the description begins, "At Y level, the X..." where X is the PrC in question and Y is a level number. In this case, copying the precise text of the ability would, in fact, copy the level and class requirements of the PrC. This, however, assumes that the introductory text is actual rules text and not simply explanatory text, another situation where a DM ruling is probably required to sort things out.) That said, if Pun-Pun is limited to only giving himself abilities that are precise copies of in-game abilities (and any DM could enforce that, if that DM so chose to), then I absolutely agree that there are things Pun-Pun cannot do. Ghola's example of the monk AC bonus not being usable by Pun-Pun if he's wearing armor is precisely correct under this interpretation of Manipulate Form. Also note that, while Pun-Pun is still 'level 5' his ECL does become 'nigh infinite' when he grants himself NI Hit Dice - the definition of ECL is 'hit dice plus level adjustment plus levels' (see DMG pp. 199, 209, pretty much the entire second chapter of Savage Species, etc.). If there were a base kobold with three Hit Dice, it would be ECL 4 as a level 1 fighter. It's just that, under normal circumstances, kobolds can't gain Hit Dice (though see also Savage Species, p.13, sidebar '1 Hit Die Creatures'). Of course, Pun-Pun isn't 'normal circumstances'. -- Pauper
HaikenEdge 09-16-06, 11:31 AM	*grabs a handful of popcorn and sits down with the others* Anybody got some coke? *pulls up a chair, breaks out the camcorder" Nope, no coke. Will crack do?
tsuyoshikentsu 09-16-06, 11:57 AM	I have to side with T_G on this one. There's basically nothing Pun-Pun can do to get Initiate of Mystra without worshipping Mystra, which cuts off a whole lot of other stuff for him -- and Initiate of Mystra is rather crucial to him, I think. And for Lord's sake, Tempest, the LAST thing we need is another argment over hte freaking Legion.
Seerow 09-16-06, 12:40 PM	*pulls up a chair, breaks out the camcorder" Nope, no coke. Will crack do? I was looking for a soda, not drugs, sorry.
Ashkenaz 09-16-06, 01:22 PM	As far as I can understand, Pun-Pun give himself the abilities. The key thing here, is to notice the diffrence between PrC's, and the abilities they grant. Ditto for feats. Pun Pun doesn't grant himself the PrC levels (or the feat), only the ability from it. I.E. Pun Pun doesn't have the feat Initiate of mystra, but instead the abilities granted by that feat. Now, time for me to get some Large sized popcorn, and watch this one with the rest. Any room left?
Effling 09-16-06, 02:46 PM	As far as I can understand, Pun-Pun give himself the abilities. The key thing here, is to notice the diffrence between PrC's, and the abilities they grant. Ditto for feats. Pun Pun doesn't grant himself the PrC levels (or the feat), only the ability from it. I.E. Pun Pun doesn't have the feat Initiate of mystra, but instead the abilities granted by that feat. Now, time for me to get some Large sized popcorn, and watch this one with the rest. Any room left? We stick with RAW for Pun-Pun, which means that he has to grant a feat to give him an ability if that ability can't be gained otherwise. This means that he has to qualify for Initate of Mystra (meaning his patron deity is to be Mystra, among with Cleric level 3rd) to be able to give himself the ability to cast in an Antimagic Field even if his Divine Powers are annulled (for example through the Planar Bubble trick).
Prominence 09-16-06, 03:20 PM	I have to side with T_G on this one. There's basically nothing Pun-Pun can do to get Initiate of Mystra without worshipping Mystra, which cuts off a whole lot of other stuff for him -- and Initiate of Mystra is rather crucial to him, I think. Well, one would assume mystra is granting the ability. Thus, he could just force mystra to give him the ability? Furthermore, he can obtain all the powers of mystra, so can't he just give it to himself? Initiate of Mystra isn't really key to Pun-Pun, since he's a diety anyway. I'm surprised no one mentions him copying every instance of the Lady of Pain's abilities (yknow, that whole 'kill a god and all his minions instantly' stuff, reset the universe...).
fricot_1 09-16-06, 03:43 PM	Im fairly new, so I've been wondering - If you are using RAW 3.5 for Pun-Pun, how is he a '1 Hit Die Creature' from Savage Species? (I thought that was 3.0) Unless it has been updated and I've jsut been to blind to see it.
Tempest Stormwind 09-16-06, 04:12 PM	Im fairly new, so I've been wondering - If you are using RAW 3.5 for Pun-Pun, how is he a '1 Hit Die Creature' from Savage Species? (I thought that was 3.0) Unless it has been updated and I've jsut been to blind to see it. He is, and that rule's in the MM3.5 as well. The more important element is that the 3.5 books include a LOT more details on monsters as races, including Kobolds. That said, there's really nothing in the build for Pun-Pun that can't be changed. All that's required is the ability to gain Manipulate Form (anyone who can cast Shapechange can do it; Pun-Pun's 'build' just does the same thing far faster) and have be a scaled one (which is easy). Kobold was chosen simply for novelty.
pawsplay 09-17-06, 01:11 AM	What's to stop Pun-Pun from using his NI divine ranks to command Mystara to allow him to enter a Prestige Class? He can order assassins guilds to admit him, or even create an assassin's guild out of thin air that admits him. Any actual task can be easily accomplished, although some may require some finagling, like defeating a dragon of a higher CR than his ECL. Pun-Pun can virtually control the Nightsong guild or any other one he might like, use divine creation and know secret to conjure up any ancient texts he might imagine. Logically, if any person can achieve the requirements, he can. The PrCs are designed in such a way that they never demand a disability. Even if a conflicting alignment is required, he could create a cleric to help with his atonement, switch alignment, and join a class. Later on, if he cared, he could use his divine powers to grant himself the ability to keep his class abilities if he changed alignment, or he could just grant himself the class abilities and snicker about having one level in Harper Scout.
TrackStar 09-17-06, 02:03 AM	I don't ever recall seeing a prestige class that says: "Must worship Mystara OR be able to force Mystara to grant you access to her PrC." Or other similiar statements... Nope. Is there any text that says you can force guilds, gods, creatures, people, civiliations, etc to let you have access to PrC's they are associated with? Nope.
bomaz 09-17-06, 04:21 AM	I haven't seen an ability that has prerequisites by itself. Classes have, abilities don't.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 09-17-06, 05:24 PM	TG, that is an amazing point. Sadly, take a look at the Creature X argument posited by Lokiyn. Essentially, this means that any ability that references its user is usable by that user, regardless of the initial wording of that ability. It's what allows things like your very own Legion to work, amongst other things. Not exactly, the creature X argument doesn't protect pun-pun in this case. The creature X argument only stipulates that one needn't worry about the identity of the creature named in the descriptive text -- essentially whomever gains the ability can use their name in place of whatever creature is named in the description. Not all abilities have pre-requisites. Feats or Class abilities generally have pre-requisites. So while pun-pun may use the creature X theorem to give himself those abilities, it still doesn't mean he will automatically meet the pre-requisites. Like I said, I still don't see any thing in the manipulate form rules text which stipulates that gaining an ability necessarily means that you automatically meet the pre-requisites for that ability.
pawsplay 09-17-06, 06:48 PM	I don't ever recall seeing a prestige class that says: "Must worship Mystara OR be able to force Mystara to grant you access to her PrC." Or other similiar statements... Nope. Is there any text that says you can force guilds, gods, creatures, people, civiliations, etc to let you have access to PrC's they are associated with? Nope. 1. Give yourself Control Creatures (deities) 2. Order Mystara to accept "worship" in the form of saying, "Mystara, may I please have lots of power?" Mystara's followers are now "kobolds named Pun-Pun," as well. 3. Profit.
Thinker89 09-17-06, 09:29 PM	Can someone link me to this creature X thing so I can follow the counter point here and the Legion just becuase I made a guy named Legion? Never mind the Legion thing found it in his sig. I made a very similar guy he was a psion with metamorphic transfer and used the Protean Scourge instead except I was never sure if the split kept working or if it would only work three times and than stop also it used the same "spell pool" so it isn't as good either way.
Wolfman1987 09-18-06, 05:35 PM	There are plenty of ways to get feats without meeting the prerequisites. Monk bonus feats for example. I'm sure there are other more open ended ones, even assuming that the many published possiblities for monk bonus feats are restricted. I'm sure there are orders of monks that worship mystra. Maybe they can choose the feat at 6th level even though they don't qualify. Do chameleons have to qualify for their bonus feats?
Richmud 09-18-06, 05:45 PM	Do chameleons have to qualify for their bonus feats? Yes they do, in fact they can't use chameleon class features to qualify
Chaos116882 09-18-06, 07:44 PM	im curious if pun pun has a way to become immune to becoming unconcious since custserv ruled being an elf doesnt over ride manipulate forms 2d4 rounds of unconciousness