Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gargs454 04-17-05, 08:03 PM	Hey all. I was looking for some advice on what feat to take next with my monk. I'm not necessarily looking for the super-uber build, but rather for some nice cohesion. A brief background so that you all know where I am coming from. The DM has houseruled that size does not affect unarmed damage, just Str. As such, I suffered no penalty (beyond the -2 to Str.) for being a halfling, but at the same time will not receive additional benefits from Enlarge effects. I am planning on taking the Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries up to level 8 and the DM also houseruled that I can go back to Monk afterward if I choose (so I need not wait until level 13 to take the PrC). So, here is my character thus far: Strongheart Halfling Monk (just turned level 3) 1. Stunning Fist, Alertness, Ability Focus (Stun) 2. Combat Reflexes 3. ??? Str: 14 Con: 15 Dex: 18 Int: 11 Wis: 17 Cha: 6 I'm trying to decide what feat would work best here. Primarily my role has been to dart in and out of melee to give the others in my party flanking, and to throw down stuns when appropriate. As such, obviously the utilitarian feats are nice, but I'm not sure how necessary. I'm trying to rely on Tumble for the protection against AoO's since Mobility would still require 2 feats, but Dodge (followed later by mobility) would be an option. Another thought was Extra Stunning, but it seems to me like I would quickly outgrow this feat as by level 20 I would have 14 stuns a day anyway. The next choice seems to be Weapon Finesse, but I might later be able to obviate the need for it by boosting my Str from items and/or ability boosts. Weapon Focus would of course also work nicely, but it doesn't add a huge bonus. Finally, I could also take Power Attack since I need it eventually anyway, though I don't see myself using it all that often as my BAB is not all that high to begin with. I plan to pick up Imp. Nat. Atk. at level 6, and FTLB at 15, which then leaves the level 3, 9 and 12 slots open for debate. Potential choices in the open slots also include Rapid Stunning (though would need to wait until 9), Death Blow and Pain Touch. Are there any other feats that I am overlooking and should look at? Additionally, which would be better at this point, Weap. Finesse/Focus or Power Attack? Given that I can go back to monk later, should I try to get into Initiate of the Dracon Mysteries earlier, or should I just wait until 13? I've read through the Opti Board, and I'm just trying to clear up what's in there and figure it out from there. I hope to obtain a Monk's Belt and a Fang Ring if the DM will allow it, so that should also help with my damage. Finally, I do not have Savage Species, but I hear a lot of mention of the Amulet of Natural Attack, can somebody explain what this is? Thanks a bunch for all the help for a first-time Monk player! Gargs
Ashlan 04-17-05, 08:47 PM	I'm trying to rely on Tumble for the protection against AoO's since Mobility would still require 2 feats, but Dodge (followed later by mobility) would be an option. 3 Dodge 9 Mobility Wouldn't allow you to enter IotDM before 13 then since you want Improved Natural Attack at 6 and you still need to pick up Power Attack. Another thought was Extra Stunning, but it seems to me like I would quickly outgrow this feat as by level 20 I would have 14 stuns a day anyway. Not really optimal unless you pick up another feat or ability that improves your stun (or gives you other options for it's use) in my opinion. The next choice seems to be Weapon Finesse, but I might later be able to obviate the need for it by boosting my Str from items and/or ability boosts. Weapon Focus would of course also work nicely, but it doesn't add a huge bonus. I agree with you on Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus is more important for qualifying for other Feats/PrCs (like Shou Disciple) Finally, I could also take Power Attack since I need it eventually anyway, though I don't see myself using it all that often as my BAB is not all that high to begin with. It's a requirement for IotDM so you will need to take it soon, but no, it isn't very useful for you. My recommendation is to take Power Attack at the last available feat slot before you want to qualify for IotDM. Personally, I would take Improved Initiative as going first is very important for me. Finally, I do not have Savage Species, but I hear a lot of mention of the Amulet of Natural Attack, can somebody explain what this is? It's an Necklace that you enchant to give your natural attacks abilities like magic weapons. Eg Necklace of Natural Weapons +1 gives your fists +1 hit and damage Necklace of Natural Weapons +1 Flaming, gives your fists +1 hit and +1, +1d6 fire damage Getting into too much detail about xp/gold costs and what not would break the CoC. Ash
Dark-star 04-17-05, 10:43 PM	Expert Tactition is a great little feat to give you some extra attacks from stunning your opponents or otherwise denying them Dex to AC. If you have access to OA it has a bunch of great feats for monks. I agree with Ashlan, Improved Initative is a great feat. If your trying to use your speed to your advantage to flank opponents then getting in position before your party attacks is important. Going first is never a bad thing, especially when you can stun that spellcaster before he has a chance to start casting. I'd stick with the tumble to avoid AoO's since skill points are easier to come by than feats and tumble is a req for your Prc anyway.
Ashlan 04-17-05, 10:59 PM	Expert Tactician was updated in Complete Adventurer and no longer gives extra attacks, just gives you and your allies a bonus to attack and damage rolls. Ash
Dark-star 04-18-05, 09:34 AM	Expert Tactician was updated in Complete Adventurer and no longer gives extra attacks, just gives you and your allies a bonus to attack and damage rolls. Ash hhhmmm... I"ll have to check that out. Too bad, I really enjoyed that feat. :nonono:
tiluvias99 04-18-05, 10:15 AM	check out the monk min max creation guide. There's a link to it in my sig. my thoughts: If the DM is saying you don't change unarmed damage if your a different size, then Improved Natural Attack is useless (besides, whether or not you can even take it is debateble, see the link in my sig). Looking at your role in the party, I would suggest taking the Choose the Poison and Break the Breath feats from quintessential monk. CtP allows the monk to choose whether or not the target of a stunning attack makes a fort save or a will save (which is great for enemy fighters), and BtB increases the DC by an additional 2. combine those with ability focus (stunning fist) and ki straps, your DC will be through the roof, and you can choose what save your opponent makes. Getting Rapid Stunning will be useless if you have these, because you won't ever have to try to stun them more than once/round. Getting pain touch makes it even better. FTLB and death blow is a good idea also.
solbergb 04-18-05, 03:09 PM	Rapid stunning (I don't remember if there is a BAB prereq) seems like an obvious choice, since your prior feat choices push the stunning fist DC. The way dice work, statistically, is that two chances of a low probability event is a medium probability event, and 2 chances of a mid probability become high probability (2x 1/4 chance becomes roughly 1/2, 2x 1/2 chance is roughly 3/4 chance) So two stunning fists is a LOT more likely than one to stick. The downside being that you need to flurry...but a higher level monk needs to flurry anyway to make the most of his abilities. As a size small monk, stunning fist is your main edge, flurry your second edge. Most of the other monk tricks (disarm, trip, grapple) aren't going to work as well for you just for size reasons. To be useful as you get higher level you need the same stuff a TWF guy needs...non-strength/sized base add-ons to your attacks that leverage your many attacks/round. This will probably mean using a weapon when you are not doing ki-based stuff like stunning fist. A humble nunchuck with spikes spell added can be very fearsome in the hands of a mid level monk (level 8+), and in the level 11+ timeframe fires of purity is just sick on a monk who is in position to full attack. From equipment..extra d6 adders are good, holy is nice for DR reasons, etc and if you do it on a nunchuck you can always ALSO add "spikes". In lower levels a quarterstaff and oil of shillelagh can give you some extra oomph in melee..but again it's weaker for size small than medium (a medium shillelagh staff does 2d6+1, small does only 1d8+1)
Gargs454 04-18-05, 09:28 PM	Thanks for all the replies so far guys. check out the monk min max creation guide. There's a link to it in my sig. my thoughts: If the DM is saying you don't change unarmed damage if your a different size, then Improved Natural Attack is useless (besides, whether or not you can even take it is debateble, see the link in my sig). Looking at your role in the party, I would suggest taking the Choose the Poison and Break the Breath feats from quintessential monk. CtP allows the monk to choose whether or not the target of a stunning attack makes a fort save or a will save (which is great for enemy fighters), and BtB increases the DC by an additional 2. combine those with ability focus (stunning fist) and ki straps, your DC will be through the roof, and you can choose what save your opponent makes. Getting Rapid Stunning will be useless if you have these, because you won't ever have to try to stun them more than once/round. Getting pain touch makes it even better. FTLB and death blow is a good idea also. Not arguing here, just asking. Wouldn't the Imp. Natural Attack be more beneficial if I can't increase my damage by Enlarging myself? Seems to me like it is pretty much the only way (aside from items and IotDM) to increase my damage. Just curious. I'll have to ask my DM if he'll allow non-Wizards books, but both CtP and BtB sound great. Would really help with crowd control. Expert Tactician was updated in Complete Adventurer and no longer gives extra attacks, just gives you and your allies a bonus to attack and damage rolls. I read the version in Complete Adventurer and it seems fairly weak to me, but perhaps I am missing something. As I read it, it gives a +2 bonus for one round on a creature that I make an AoO on. So far there have not been too many AoO's so not sure how much it would help. Will keep it in mind though. Unfortunately my DM tends to play things fairly smart. : P
Dark-star 04-18-05, 10:22 PM	I read the version in Complete Adventurer and it seems fairly weak to me, but perhaps I am missing something. As I read it, it gives a +2 bonus for one round on a creature that I make an AoO on. So far there have not been too many AoO's so not sure how much it would help. Will keep it in mind though. Unfortunately my DM tends to play things fairly smart. : P No, your not missing a thing. Wizards completly nerfed this once great feat. Once upon a time it would give you an extra attack (or anything that could be done with an attack) on your turn to any opponent who lost their Dex to AC. It worked quite well with stunning fist. Adding in deathblow pretty made your stunning fist a save vs. death. :ayyyy!:
Gargs454 04-19-05, 10:41 AM	Ah yes, well, I can see where that would be a pretty awesome feat. A shame, but I can also see why it got nerfed, though the hit seems a little harsh to me. Can't really see anyone taking this except maybe a fighter, and then only because fighters get so many feats and attacks.
gman 04-19-05, 10:44 AM	and not sure of the requisites, but I think Pain Touch would be sweet here, since you have already tweaked up the DC on Stunning Fist. Sun for one round, and then nauseate for the next round is pretty sweet.
tiluvias99 04-19-05, 11:29 AM	Wouldn't the Imp. Natural Attack be more beneficial if I can't increase my damage by Enlarging myself? Seems to me like it is pretty much the only way (aside from items and IotDM) to increase my damage. Improved Natural Attack increases your damage as if you were one size category larger. In your case, being one size larger means absolutely nothing. Even if it did work, it would move you up to medium size damage (which is what you already do, correct?).
Gargs454 04-19-05, 12:23 PM	Ahh I must have misread that. I read it as increasing the damage one die step (i.e. from 1d8 to 1d10). Thanks for the clarification. That would of course make the feat useless in the current campaign. Thanks!
Dark-star 04-19-05, 01:14 PM	If you wanted to focus on your stunning abilities unbalancing strike, freezing the life blood and pain touch are all nice additions. In the right situation the tactical feats from Complete worrior can give your DM some headaches in combat.
Gargs454 04-19-05, 09:12 PM	Yeah, I'm leaning a little toward Pain Touch at this point, or maybe BtB if the DM will allow it. Our group is looking like it might be a little combat centric as it is, so I may try worry more about helping the other fighters than actual damage. Thanks for all the help guys! BTW: Anybody try out Pharoah's Fist yet? It looks like it could be huge in the right situations. (From Sandstorm, forces all adjacent enemies to make a save or be stunned when you use a stunning fist attack).
Dark-star 04-19-05, 09:25 PM	BTW: Anybody try out Pharoah's Fist yet? It looks like it could be huge in the right situations. (From Sandstorm, forces all adjacent enemies to make a save or be stunned when you use a stunning fist attack). Like you pointed out this seems to be a very situational feat. If your being swarmed by many monsters at once it could be benaficial but most DM's would aviod clumping monsters if you had this. If your fighting a lot of monsters also they tend to have less hit die and it is generally just more effective to hit and heavily wound them. That's just my take on it however I'm sure other people will have differing opinions.