A little Vermin Mastery help please [Archive] - Wizards Community

A little Vermin Mastery help please [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Akusokuzon
06-26-06, 12:13 AM I know, I keep bothering you all with retarded build ideas and non-sensical RP possibilities.

Thus is the life of an ever-bored super-nerd during Summer Vacation. *sigh*

This time around the idea is fairly simple, and even has something of a predecessor: The H.I.V.E

This time around, however, the idea isn't ultimate power or total-brokenness... my DM isn't stupid. The concept behind this one is the ability to command a few swarms of vermin (Preferably Spiders) as well as a number of smaller vermin, and a couple powerful vermin. Think of it as creating a spider "army" (The "" because it's more of a spider battallion... not looking for the master H.I.V.E. size... just big enough to be effective and creepy as hell) with thousands of footsoldiers (Swarm) a few commanders (Phase Spiders... or generic Medium-Large Spiders) and a General or two (Large-Gargantuan... if possible... spiders).

*Four men approach you in an empty back ally; their intents obviously all but friendly. As they grin and surround you, they neglect to realize the swarms of spiders that have already begun streaming out of your sleeves. Three rocks that become three horrifying spiders are all they see before being enveloped by the horrifying blanket of arachnids; their death-throws muffled by insect carapaces, their screams of agony come gurgled through the ocean of vermin swarming inside and out.*

Limits:
-No Monstrous PCs - other than that, pick any race but try to keep LA down... it's a headache
-The stats will be... taken care of... just tell me what the important and dump ones are
-Try to keep it to 4-5 total classes; the fewer the better, just so it doesn't LOOK too optomized
-Focus is on cast and forget, don't worry too much about melee combat ability (though cleric is an obvious choice... and thus... *ponders*)

Personal Ideas:
I am by no means anything resembling an optomizer... but from my rudimentary research it looks like a Cleric with Domains Summoning and Spider would be the best openings, but especially after that is where everything immediately becomes muddy.

Thank you all in advance... it boggles my mind how quickly you all can come up with such insane builds.
SigmaJargon
06-26-06, 01:21 AM What level are we aiming for? Are there any books which we can't use? Give us some more information!

The best non-H.I.V.E. swarm masters would either be druids, archivists, or warlocks. Warlocks get special mention for the ability to cast spam Insect Plague all over the place with the Tenacious Plague greater invocation, but they lack other useful vermin boosting spells, notably Giant Vermin.

So here is my general-case-lacking-information rely: play a Druid. Cast Creeping Doom, and then cast Giant Vermin as many times as you want on the resulting centipedes. It might not be spider themed, but big, salivating centipedes are just as scary. :D
Akusokuzon
06-26-06, 01:34 AM So it is written, so it shall be done.

The campaign will start at 5th level, so playability up to that point (and really even that level honestly) isn't an issue. Starting with playbility at 6 and going through... well the DM says it's going to be a doozy of a campaign, so the next 10 or so levels and then some helpful guidelines would be nice.

Other than Savage Species, use any book you want to. I only disavow SS because my DM knows SS and equally well knows that including it in any campaign inherently breaks it.

But wow... Creeping Doom + Giant Vermin looks disgusting at higher levels. I don't care what BBEG you're fighting; three Colossal Centipedes per round sucks like crap.

Also, I know this isn't really the perfect forum for this, but would house-ruling creeping doom from centipedes to spiders really be a big deal? IE Does a spider swarm do that much more than a centipede swarm. Obviously Larger Spiders are better than Larger Centipedes because Giant Vermin has the 3:2:1 ratio... but I thought those two swarms were basically the same until you were fighting the difference between a big ugly centipede with nothing special and Phase Spider or Harpoon Spider.

And at the same time, why not take Cleric to get the same spells at the same levels (I'm sure there's a Creeping Doom replacement in the summoning or spider trees somewhere), but also get better Summoning and some really cool Spider Spells from their respective Domains?
Akusokuzon
06-26-06, 09:38 AM Anyone else have any ideas?
Tweedledope
06-26-06, 09:55 AM Well...too bad you don't have access to SS because the Master of Flies seems right up your alley...as well as mine because I'm working on a similar concept right now.

You should take a look at the EbCS for the Child of Winter feat series, it gives you a vermin companion, vermin wildshape and pluses to saves vs. poison/disease. In Player's Guide to Eberron, there is a feat that makes you immune to the distraction effect of Swarms as well as giving you DR 6/- vs. swarms...not bad.

If possible, see if your DM will allow you to take a look at the Master of Flies and, of course, don't discredit the Vermin Lord from BoVD.

-=TD=-
Akusokuzon
06-26-06, 09:34 PM After considerable research, it looks like the best course of action for the idea is actually to go Druid 20 (Or maybe I've missed a PrC somewhere). Essentially, though Vermin Lord and Master of Flies look amazingly cool, they slow down my ability to cast and don't add too much swarm-related *umph*. Sure, cast Spew Swarm as a spell-like ability is cool for Vermin Lord 7 or so, but that's at the cost of 4 or more Druid spell casting levels, and 7 or so levels where I could be getting more Child of Winter-related vermin Wild forms and vermin allies. Feel free to critique (please do) on that thought process.

Also, I have an idea for feats:

H: Child of Winter (Summoning Swarms, begin feat tree)
1: Extend Spell (Keep those swarms around for 2min/level)
3: Vermin Companion (Phase Spider Familiar? Yes Please)
6: Vermin Shape (Join in the fray!)
9: Quicken Spell (Get them out there faster: Two swarms per round!)
12: Twin Spell (In theory, Quicken summon swarm, twin spell summon swarm: Three per round!)
15: Persistent Spell (This is questionable... but if it works on summons... let there be swarms)
18: Fast Wild Shape (Quicken summon swarm, Fast Wild Shape, Twin Summon Swarm all in one round? Holy Crap)

I don't often do caster work, so these feats could all work differently than I think they do. If so, please let me know, maybe even give another suggestion. If they work and they suck, say so and same as before. If they work and it sounds cool, let me know... I'm still iffy on the Metamagic stuff.
Tweedledope
06-26-06, 10:09 PM Since vermin are mindless, you might want to get the Verminfriend feat from BoVD...you make a check, mindless vermin don't attack you. This is kind of overridden by the Child of Winter feat line but, with Child of Winter, you only get to apply Wild Empathy...so, it's your call really.

-=TD=-
Akusokuzon
06-26-06, 11:33 PM Yeah, and wild empathy should work better than the Cha check anyway... I also get control over the swarm with Empathy, as opposed to it just deciding not to rape me with the Verminfriend.

So the only questions that remain would go to the Metamagic Feats...

Could I persistant a Swarm? Or even better... wake up in the morning, summon a swarm, and persistent myself a few Giant Vermin?

Could I theoretically Shift into a Collosal Spider and summon 3 Swarms in one round, then the next round turn 9 of those (Assumed Centipedes) into collosal centipedes? Sure, it would only happen at level 19-20 and cost most of my high level spells per day, but in two rounds you're fighting 10 Collosal Vermin and 3 swarms... that would be a force to reckon with.

By my math (which is Encounter Level Calculator reinforced... heh) that means that whether you summon swarms of Spiders, Centipedes or Scorpions, Giant Vermin 3 times (9 centipedes, 6 spiders or 3 scorpions) and shift into a collosal Scorpion, that means you're fighting:
1 Collosal Scorpion, 9 Collosal Centipedes, 3 Centipede Swarms
1 Collosal Scorpion, 6 Collosal Spiders, 3 Spider Swarms
4 Collosal Scorpions, 3 Scorpion Swarms

Each of which is a 16 Challenge rating. For one person. This one guy at 19 could take out an entire party of 16s. Forgive me if that isn't actually as great as it sounds... but for most characters at 20, I think taking 2 16s would be tough.

Then take any spells you have of other levels, and use Child of Winter to throw down some more huge bug mayhem, your Vermin Companion, and any vermin you may have picked up during your treck through the woods using Child of Winter's Animal Empathy on Vermin... Phase Spider/Harpoon Spider/General Collosal Bug ARMY OF DOOM...

BBEG extreme. Imagine a tower he's prepared... he's a 20th level encounter all to himself. Whataya think the odds of my DM letting me play this build are?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Akusokuzon 06-26-06, 12:13 AM	I know, I keep bothering you all with retarded build ideas and non-sensical RP possibilities. Thus is the life of an ever-bored super-nerd during Summer Vacation. sigh This time around the idea is fairly simple, and even has something of a predecessor: The H.I.V.E This time around, however, the idea isn't ultimate power or total-brokenness... my DM isn't stupid. The concept behind this one is the ability to command a few swarms of vermin (Preferably Spiders) as well as a number of smaller vermin, and a couple powerful vermin. Think of it as creating a spider "army" (The "" because it's more of a spider battallion... not looking for the master H.I.V.E. size... just big enough to be effective and creepy as hell) with thousands of footsoldiers (Swarm) a few commanders (Phase Spiders... or generic Medium-Large Spiders) and a General or two (Large-Gargantuan... if possible... spiders). Four men approach you in an empty back ally; their intents obviously all but friendly. As they grin and surround you, they neglect to realize the swarms of spiders that have already begun streaming out of your sleeves. Three rocks that become three horrifying spiders are all they see before being enveloped by the horrifying blanket of arachnids; their death-throws muffled by insect carapaces, their screams of agony come gurgled through the ocean of vermin swarming inside and out. Limits: -No Monstrous PCs - other than that, pick any race but try to keep LA down... it's a headache -The stats will be... taken care of... just tell me what the important and dump ones are -Try to keep it to 4-5 total classes; the fewer the better, just so it doesn't LOOK too optomized -Focus is on cast and forget, don't worry too much about melee combat ability (though cleric is an obvious choice... and thus... ponders) Personal Ideas: I am by no means anything resembling an optomizer... but from my rudimentary research it looks like a Cleric with Domains Summoning and Spider would be the best openings, but especially after that is where everything immediately becomes muddy. Thank you all in advance... it boggles my mind how quickly you all can come up with such insane builds.
SigmaJargon 06-26-06, 01:21 AM	What level are we aiming for? Are there any books which we can't use? Give us some more information! The best non-H.I.V.E. swarm masters would either be druids, archivists, or warlocks. Warlocks get special mention for the ability to cast spam Insect Plague all over the place with the Tenacious Plague greater invocation, but they lack other useful vermin boosting spells, notably Giant Vermin. So here is my general-case-lacking-information rely: play a Druid. Cast Creeping Doom, and then cast Giant Vermin as many times as you want on the resulting centipedes. It might not be spider themed, but big, salivating centipedes are just as scary. :D
Akusokuzon 06-26-06, 01:34 AM	So it is written, so it shall be done. The campaign will start at 5th level, so playability up to that point (and really even that level honestly) isn't an issue. Starting with playbility at 6 and going through... well the DM says it's going to be a doozy of a campaign, so the next 10 or so levels and then some helpful guidelines would be nice. Other than Savage Species, use any book you want to. I only disavow SS because my DM knows SS and equally well knows that including it in any campaign inherently breaks it. But wow... Creeping Doom + Giant Vermin looks disgusting at higher levels. I don't care what BBEG you're fighting; three Colossal Centipedes per round sucks like crap. Also, I know this isn't really the perfect forum for this, but would house-ruling creeping doom from centipedes to spiders really be a big deal? IE Does a spider swarm do that much more than a centipede swarm. Obviously Larger Spiders are better than Larger Centipedes because Giant Vermin has the 3:2:1 ratio... but I thought those two swarms were basically the same until you were fighting the difference between a big ugly centipede with nothing special and Phase Spider or Harpoon Spider. And at the same time, why not take Cleric to get the same spells at the same levels (I'm sure there's a Creeping Doom replacement in the summoning or spider trees somewhere), but also get better Summoning and some really cool Spider Spells from their respective Domains?
Akusokuzon 06-26-06, 09:38 AM	Anyone else have any ideas?
Tweedledope 06-26-06, 09:55 AM	Well...too bad you don't have access to SS because the Master of Flies seems right up your alley...as well as mine because I'm working on a similar concept right now. You should take a look at the EbCS for the Child of Winter feat series, it gives you a vermin companion, vermin wildshape and pluses to saves vs. poison/disease. In Player's Guide to Eberron, there is a feat that makes you immune to the distraction effect of Swarms as well as giving you DR 6/- vs. swarms...not bad. If possible, see if your DM will allow you to take a look at the Master of Flies and, of course, don't discredit the Vermin Lord from BoVD. -=TD=-
Akusokuzon 06-26-06, 09:34 PM	After considerable research, it looks like the best course of action for the idea is actually to go Druid 20 (Or maybe I've missed a PrC somewhere). Essentially, though Vermin Lord and Master of Flies look amazingly cool, they slow down my ability to cast and don't add too much swarm-related umph. Sure, cast Spew Swarm as a spell-like ability is cool for Vermin Lord 7 or so, but that's at the cost of 4 or more Druid spell casting levels, and 7 or so levels where I could be getting more Child of Winter-related vermin Wild forms and vermin allies. Feel free to critique (please do) on that thought process. Also, I have an idea for feats: H: Child of Winter (Summoning Swarms, begin feat tree) 1: Extend Spell (Keep those swarms around for 2min/level) 3: Vermin Companion (Phase Spider Familiar? Yes Please) 6: Vermin Shape (Join in the fray!) 9: Quicken Spell (Get them out there faster: Two swarms per round!) 12: Twin Spell (In theory, Quicken summon swarm, twin spell summon swarm: Three per round!) 15: Persistent Spell (This is questionable... but if it works on summons... let there be swarms) 18: Fast Wild Shape (Quicken summon swarm, Fast Wild Shape, Twin Summon Swarm all in one round? Holy Crap) I don't often do caster work, so these feats could all work differently than I think they do. If so, please let me know, maybe even give another suggestion. If they work and they suck, say so and same as before. If they work and it sounds cool, let me know... I'm still iffy on the Metamagic stuff.
Tweedledope 06-26-06, 10:09 PM	Since vermin are mindless, you might want to get the Verminfriend feat from BoVD...you make a check, mindless vermin don't attack you. This is kind of overridden by the Child of Winter feat line but, with Child of Winter, you only get to apply Wild Empathy...so, it's your call really. -=TD=-
Akusokuzon 06-26-06, 11:33 PM	Yeah, and wild empathy should work better than the Cha check anyway... I also get control over the swarm with Empathy, as opposed to it just deciding not to rape me with the Verminfriend. So the only questions that remain would go to the Metamagic Feats... Could I persistant a Swarm? Or even better... wake up in the morning, summon a swarm, and persistent myself a few Giant Vermin? Could I theoretically Shift into a Collosal Spider and summon 3 Swarms in one round, then the next round turn 9 of those (Assumed Centipedes) into collosal centipedes? Sure, it would only happen at level 19-20 and cost most of my high level spells per day, but in two rounds you're fighting 10 Collosal Vermin and 3 swarms... that would be a force to reckon with. By my math (which is Encounter Level Calculator reinforced... heh) that means that whether you summon swarms of Spiders, Centipedes or Scorpions, Giant Vermin 3 times (9 centipedes, 6 spiders or 3 scorpions) and shift into a collosal Scorpion, that means you're fighting: 1 Collosal Scorpion, 9 Collosal Centipedes, 3 Centipede Swarms 1 Collosal Scorpion, 6 Collosal Spiders, 3 Spider Swarms 4 Collosal Scorpions, 3 Scorpion Swarms Each of which is a 16 Challenge rating. For one person. This one guy at 19 could take out an entire party of 16s. Forgive me if that isn't actually as great as it sounds... but for most characters at 20, I think taking 2 16s would be tough. Then take any spells you have of other levels, and use Child of Winter to throw down some more huge bug mayhem, your Vermin Companion, and any vermin you may have picked up during your treck through the woods using Child of Winter's Animal Empathy on Vermin... Phase Spider/Harpoon Spider/General Collosal Bug ARMY OF DOOM... BBEG extreme. Imagine a tower he's prepared... he's a 20th level encounter all to himself. Whataya think the odds of my DM letting me play this build are?