A Longsword Monk to compete with Throwing Rogue? [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Longsword Monk to compete with Throwing Rogue? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Epilepticemu
07-04-05, 01:21 PM Ok, you may have seen a thread I made earlier trying to come up witha viable longsword wielding monk (probably with some divine casting ability). Oh yes, he's exalted too (vow of poverty/nonviolence/peace). At the same time I was also throwing around the idea about an exlated LG halfling rogue thrower. As I fleshed the builds out in my head I couldn't come up with any way for the monk to even come close to competing with the rogue for damage. I'm using a 28 point buy, and these are the Monk stats i'd use: str16, dex10, con12, int8, wis16, cha 10. Let's take a quick look at their attacks at 4th level (i'm using a weapon monk variant I saw on this board, instead of bonus fist abilities he gets focus, specialization, and some fighter bonus feats).

4 monk- +1/+1 base, (+3 str, +1 weapon focus LS, +1 exalted strike)= +6/+6 damage of d8+6 (3str, 2 specialization,1 exalted strike) 19-20 x2.

Feat progression looks something like... 1- Sacred Vow, 1-Human-Vow of Poverty, 1-E-Subduing Strike,1-(monk)Whirling Steel Strike, 2-E-Vow of Nonviolence, 2-(monk automatic) Weapon Focus Longsword, 3-M-Quick Draw, 3- (???), 4(monkautomatic) weapon spec longsword, 4-E Vow of Peace.

Wow, that is 10 feats by level 4, and that is all legit. And now all those exalted feats add for a bit of nice flavor (and a bit of defense, but i'm sacrificing that anyway for vow of poverty), they simply don't do damage.

I don't think I have to spell out how a halfling level 3rogue/1fighter can be sick. Just a quick overview +4dex (16 dex+2racial), +1 size, +1 racial-thrown, +3 BAB = +9, using TWF to throw 2 daggers is +7/+7. Now, lets say that he even has -1 damage from 8 str on each hit. He's still doing d4-1+2d8 (sacred strike sneak attack). Assuming his target can be hit with the sneak attacks he's doing an average of about 10 a hit, for 20 a round. The monk is averaging out at the exact same output, but at +6/+6 instead of +7/+7. However, it's quite obvious that when the rogue gets pointblank/rapid shot/weapon focus while getting higher sneak attack damage (at d8's) he will VERY quickly eclipse the monk in damage. The monk's damage has almost NO room to improve. When flurying you can't take advantage of 1-1/2x strength modifier when using a longsword 2handed, so my off hand is completely useless permanently. I thought about doing power attack, but he just dosen't have the attack bonus to make it worth it. Is there any way to increase a monk's damage like this? Note, I planned on going monk4/cleric2/sacred fist (a slight variant my DM allows, using only your deity's weapon instead of fists, and he worships Heironeous). Theoretically I could do a bit more damage after I get level 4 spells and can increase my size modifier, but that's a long way off, and it's still doubtful that I could come close to a rogue's damage. Oh, and because the rogue could switch str to dex, and wisdom to int, he would have TONS of skill points and not only out-damages the monk but also outskills him. What's the point!?

The only other thing I could think of would be to give up on the casting aspect and go from monk to Kensai. While with vow of poverty you can't use magical weapons, I think that the Kensai sword is an exception as he is feeding his lifeforce (not gold at all) into his sword for the sole purpose of defeating evil. Is there any other way you guys can think of to increase a longsword monk's damage potential? The main barrier I'm having is getting past my completely useless off hand. I'm not going to be using a second weapon (even if i did the monkey grip/TWF to use 2 longswords my attack bonus with flurry would be pretty damn low, oh and I don't have the dex to do TWF anyway) and I can't get a bonus for using my longsword 2h as a monk, making power attack/leap attack not work.

Now i'm all for this flavorful monk, but if his damage is just going to be completely eclipsed it's not worth it. Help me out you gods of min/max! I must be missing SOMETHING to make this monk a bit better.
Caelic
07-04-05, 01:26 PM Uhm...you DO realize that, with Vow of Poverty, you can't own a longsword, right?
Baneslayer
07-04-05, 01:29 PM Sword and non-Violence Vow? Am I missing something here, like why do it?

Uh.. by RAW Kensai Sword violates VoP, there is a good case to be made to your DM to allow it but we are slicing the cheese quite thin.
Epilepticemu
07-04-05, 01:36 PM I'm quite sure that I can convince my DM to budge a little on minor flavor aspects like that. Longsword is my deity's favored weapon; my character is devoted to Heironeous and his sole purpose is acting as an extension of his will. It makes perfect sense that an exception could be made to owning a longsword and then have it enchanted through means of Heironeous blessing it himself (Kensai PRC).

My question was concerning any feats I could take to improve the damage output of a monk using a longsword (other than focus/specialization which I already have).

Oh, and as for the sword/non-violence vow I have Subduing Strike.
Kage Wellby
07-04-05, 02:27 PM You can't benefit from Vow of Poverty if you own the sword though, there is NO budging on that. Heironeous gives you the strength from VoP instead of giving you the sword, there is no exception. The first rule about VoPoverty is that if you try to get around it you lose it. This has all been fleshed out in the BoED threads about this feat, which were many indeed.

You can own a non-magic, completely normal, DAGGER, but not a Longsword. Otherwise you'd be best to drop VoPoverty and just buy gear. TBH a monk is almost better off having gear anyway. Druids, on the other hand...
Epilepticemu
07-04-05, 02:50 PM Ok then, but I would have appreciated you answering my question as well as clarifying on VOP. As it stands, no one has done anything to answer the actual question asked. VOP or not, how can I help improve the damage output of a monk dedicated to the longsword?
rilem
07-04-05, 03:19 PM Ah, right, this was the Sacred Fist build that let you use weapons, too. That AND Vow of Poverty with a longsword?

Anyway ...

1. If you've got enough casting ability, you can boost your damage output the conventional cleric-buff way. Use Divine Metamagicked Persistent Divine Favor, a bronzewood longsword with spikes (If you're a longsword-wielding VOP Sacred Fist, you should have absolutely no trouble with this tiny little bit of extra cheese).

2. Use Carnivore's VOP Soulknife build instead of monk. Only works at high levels, b/c you take your VOP at level 18 — after you've spent all your money boosting your abilities via purchased Wishes.

3. Shiba Protector1 — +Wis to hit and damage.

4. WarMind or FistofZuoken, then spend feats on Greater Psionic Weapon and Deep Impact/PowerAttack

5. Accept the fact that monks do more damage unarmed, and even then aren't about dealing raw damage (exception=Catharz' Trip Monkey of Doom). If you want a weapon, Serpent Strike (flurry with longspear) is far better, b/c it lets you control more territory.

What you should be doing is partnering with a halfling rogue. Use your stunning attacks to set up Sneak Attacks for his thrown weapons.
Baneslayer
07-04-05, 03:44 PM Ok then, but I would have appreciated you answering my question as well as clarifying on VOP. As it stands, no one has done anything to answer the actual question asked. VOP or not, how can I help improve the damage output of a monk dedicated to the longsword?

Enchant it. That is all you can do after a point with a sword.

Otherwise dump the whole idea and be a normal monk who's unarmed damage scales with level and gets pretty disgusting without much help. With which VoP works perfectly, though, as it has been said, equipment overshadows VoP, and can still get some rather nasty Exalted feats to beat folks up with.

Note that the Halfling Fighter/Rogue Thrower you are using as your base comparison, while getting +9 BAB only gets the sneak attack on multiple shots in very limited ways (surprise round) and never Flanks, because one doesn't Flank with ranged attacks without having the Whisperknife's ability. So while the precision goes up, the number of ways you'll be using that to do 1d3-1+SA drops. And without a cooperative party, the number of ways you'll be doing multiple melee SA attacks also drops. So it all balances out when you look at things more broadly.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Epilepticemu 07-04-05, 01:21 PM	Ok, you may have seen a thread I made earlier trying to come up witha viable longsword wielding monk (probably with some divine casting ability). Oh yes, he's exalted too (vow of poverty/nonviolence/peace). At the same time I was also throwing around the idea about an exlated LG halfling rogue thrower. As I fleshed the builds out in my head I couldn't come up with any way for the monk to even come close to competing with the rogue for damage. I'm using a 28 point buy, and these are the Monk stats i'd use: str16, dex10, con12, int8, wis16, cha 10. Let's take a quick look at their attacks at 4th level (i'm using a weapon monk variant I saw on this board, instead of bonus fist abilities he gets focus, specialization, and some fighter bonus feats). 4 monk- +1/+1 base, (+3 str, +1 weapon focus LS, +1 exalted strike)= +6/+6 damage of d8+6 (3str, 2 specialization,1 exalted strike) 19-20 x2. Feat progression looks something like... 1- Sacred Vow, 1-Human-Vow of Poverty, 1-E-Subduing Strike,1-(monk)Whirling Steel Strike, 2-E-Vow of Nonviolence, 2-(monk automatic) Weapon Focus Longsword, 3-M-Quick Draw, 3- (???), 4(monkautomatic) weapon spec longsword, 4-E Vow of Peace. Wow, that is 10 feats by level 4, and that is all legit. And now all those exalted feats add for a bit of nice flavor (and a bit of defense, but i'm sacrificing that anyway for vow of poverty), they simply don't do damage. I don't think I have to spell out how a halfling level 3rogue/1fighter can be sick. Just a quick overview +4dex (16 dex+2racial), +1 size, +1 racial-thrown, +3 BAB = +9, using TWF to throw 2 daggers is +7/+7. Now, lets say that he even has -1 damage from 8 str on each hit. He's still doing d4-1+2d8 (sacred strike sneak attack). Assuming his target can be hit with the sneak attacks he's doing an average of about 10 a hit, for 20 a round. The monk is averaging out at the exact same output, but at +6/+6 instead of +7/+7. However, it's quite obvious that when the rogue gets pointblank/rapid shot/weapon focus while getting higher sneak attack damage (at d8's) he will VERY quickly eclipse the monk in damage. The monk's damage has almost NO room to improve. When flurying you can't take advantage of 1-1/2x strength modifier when using a longsword 2handed, so my off hand is completely useless permanently. I thought about doing power attack, but he just dosen't have the attack bonus to make it worth it. Is there any way to increase a monk's damage like this? Note, I planned on going monk4/cleric2/sacred fist (a slight variant my DM allows, using only your deity's weapon instead of fists, and he worships Heironeous). Theoretically I could do a bit more damage after I get level 4 spells and can increase my size modifier, but that's a long way off, and it's still doubtful that I could come close to a rogue's damage. Oh, and because the rogue could switch str to dex, and wisdom to int, he would have TONS of skill points and not only out-damages the monk but also outskills him. What's the point!? The only other thing I could think of would be to give up on the casting aspect and go from monk to Kensai. While with vow of poverty you can't use magical weapons, I think that the Kensai sword is an exception as he is feeding his lifeforce (not gold at all) into his sword for the sole purpose of defeating evil. Is there any other way you guys can think of to increase a longsword monk's damage potential? The main barrier I'm having is getting past my completely useless off hand. I'm not going to be using a second weapon (even if i did the monkey grip/TWF to use 2 longswords my attack bonus with flurry would be pretty damn low, oh and I don't have the dex to do TWF anyway) and I can't get a bonus for using my longsword 2h as a monk, making power attack/leap attack not work. Now i'm all for this flavorful monk, but if his damage is just going to be completely eclipsed it's not worth it. Help me out you gods of min/max! I must be missing SOMETHING to make this monk a bit better.
Caelic 07-04-05, 01:26 PM	Uhm...you DO realize that, with Vow of Poverty, you can't own a longsword, right?
Baneslayer 07-04-05, 01:29 PM	Sword and non-Violence Vow? Am I missing something here, like why do it? Uh.. by RAW Kensai Sword violates VoP, there is a good case to be made to your DM to allow it but we are slicing the cheese quite thin.
Epilepticemu 07-04-05, 01:36 PM	I'm quite sure that I can convince my DM to budge a little on minor flavor aspects like that. Longsword is my deity's favored weapon; my character is devoted to Heironeous and his sole purpose is acting as an extension of his will. It makes perfect sense that an exception could be made to owning a longsword and then have it enchanted through means of Heironeous blessing it himself (Kensai PRC). My question was concerning any feats I could take to improve the damage output of a monk using a longsword (other than focus/specialization which I already have). Oh, and as for the sword/non-violence vow I have Subduing Strike.
Kage Wellby 07-04-05, 02:27 PM	You can't benefit from Vow of Poverty if you own the sword though, there is NO budging on that. Heironeous gives you the strength from VoP instead of giving you the sword, there is no exception. The first rule about VoPoverty is that if you try to get around it you lose it. This has all been fleshed out in the BoED threads about this feat, which were many indeed. You can own a non-magic, completely normal, DAGGER, but not a Longsword. Otherwise you'd be best to drop VoPoverty and just buy gear. TBH a monk is almost better off having gear anyway. Druids, on the other hand...
Epilepticemu 07-04-05, 02:50 PM	Ok then, but I would have appreciated you answering my question as well as clarifying on VOP. As it stands, no one has done anything to answer the actual question asked. VOP or not, how can I help improve the damage output of a monk dedicated to the longsword?
rilem 07-04-05, 03:19 PM	Ah, right, this was the Sacred Fist build that let you use weapons, too. That AND Vow of Poverty with a longsword? Anyway ... 1. If you've got enough casting ability, you can boost your damage output the conventional cleric-buff way. Use Divine Metamagicked Persistent Divine Favor, a bronzewood longsword with spikes (If you're a longsword-wielding VOP Sacred Fist, you should have absolutely no trouble with this tiny little bit of extra cheese). 2. Use Carnivore's VOP Soulknife build instead of monk. Only works at high levels, b/c you take your VOP at level 18 — after you've spent all your money boosting your abilities via purchased Wishes. 3. Shiba Protector1 — +Wis to hit and damage. 4. WarMind or FistofZuoken, then spend feats on Greater Psionic Weapon and Deep Impact/PowerAttack 5. Accept the fact that monks do more damage unarmed, and even then aren't about dealing raw damage (exception=Catharz' Trip Monkey of Doom). If you want a weapon, Serpent Strike (flurry with longspear) is far better, b/c it lets you control more territory. What you should be doing is partnering with a halfling rogue. Use your stunning attacks to set up Sneak Attacks for his thrown weapons.
Baneslayer 07-04-05, 03:44 PM	Ok then, but I would have appreciated you answering my question as well as clarifying on VOP. As it stands, no one has done anything to answer the actual question asked. VOP or not, how can I help improve the damage output of a monk dedicated to the longsword? Enchant it. That is all you can do after a point with a sword. Otherwise dump the whole idea and be a normal monk who's unarmed damage scales with level and gets pretty disgusting without much help. With which VoP works perfectly, though, as it has been said, equipment overshadows VoP, and can still get some rather nasty Exalted feats to beat folks up with. Note that the Halfling Fighter/Rogue Thrower you are using as your base comparison, while getting +9 BAB only gets the sneak attack on multiple shots in very limited ways (surprise round) and never Flanks, because one doesn't Flank with ranged attacks without having the Whisperknife's ability. So while the precision goes up, the number of ways you'll be using that to do 1d3-1+SA drops. And without a cooperative party, the number of ways you'll be doing multiple melee SA attacks also drops. So it all balances out when you look at things more broadly.