Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Naramyth 11-18-03, 10:34 PM	As the title says, I'm here with abit of a nightmare... I'm starting a new character(on-line) and I had a very nice plan of Tiefling ftr2/rge3/Scr4/HL3/MT6/EK+ ...But my DM dosen't allow Mystic Theuge..:( So now I'm stuck. My idea was this: I was a para-special forces guard for one of the BBEG in the campaign, one day on patrol, walked in on his non-shapechanged master(who is actually a pitfend:devil: ). As a bit of punishment I became a labrat. Now after an escape he wants to do some good in the world(hense the HL) I want to keep the sorcerer and Tiefling, other then that this concept is now wide open. Oh yeah, starting ECL is 10, 49,000gp, all books avalible, and the bad boys stats are Str 16 Dex 12 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 17 before any adjustments. I guess I want a warrior-type that can still spell-sling somewhat. Sorry this is so fragmented but...:embarrass Naramyth
balefire42 11-18-03, 11:01 PM	charisma spell slinging+combat sounds like a bard to me. check out http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67002 for bard builds.
catharz 11-18-03, 11:17 PM	What else does your DM allow/disallow?
Naramyth 11-18-03, 11:50 PM	Just that as far as I know...oh and I'm impossing a non-evil only. I was thinking doing something with the havoc mage from the minitures handbook.
Naramyth 11-19-03, 01:10 AM	OK well I did abit of work and I'm thinking... ftr2/scr4/HM4/HL3/EK6 which gives... 3 feats all the fun stuff with HL(smite,resistences,cha to saves,turning,etc),which means divine might. 4th level Battlecast and 10th level scr casting and bab of +16:angel: ...and sense I'm stuck with tiefling, outsider wings look good as a feat to get, altough the bloodline feat isn't that good:sad:
Funny Slaughter 11-19-03, 07:53 AM	HM is what? time to write a bit more. its ok to shorten things if you explain the meaning some lines below. i mean i guess what it means since i know battlecast, but you are losing answers this way. 10th level casting is kind of pointless. advancing HL via MT is kind of odd, better to go for more BAB. if i was you i would decide a bit. play a fighter/mage, plenty of threads about it. HL is a bad option then. losing BAB with sorcerer is bad then, losing casterlevels also. play a fighter. HL is great then, you may find some useful ressourced in the builds i posted, you find them at page 11 when you sort the boards by poster. losing BAB is even worse. gs Funny
Kwyn 11-19-03, 09:35 AM	Funny, he said in the prior post he was going to add in some Havoc Mage from the Miniatures Handbook, so that's what the HM is.
Sisyfos 11-19-03, 10:02 AM	http://minmax.neonsamurai.de/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=50&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0 Try that one. Neonsamurai built it as a sacred melee sorcerer. It also works out quite nicely as "not-so-very-sacred tiefling sorcerer" even though that race is not as optimal sorcerer race as aasimar is. The build gives a decent BAB, good spellcasting and nice melee options. Sisyfos
Funny Slaughter 11-19-03, 02:58 PM	Funny, he said in the prior post he was going to add in some Havoc Mage from the Miniatures Handbook, so that's what the HM is. its a good idea to post the meaning of an abbreviation in the same post. i dont want to scan a whole thread again in order to find the meaning of something. certain abbreviations mean a specified thing, others have different meanings. HM/DD could be a havoc mage/dragon disciple as well as a harper mage/ divine disciple or even a dwarven defender. i did not want to get an explaination, btw, i wanted to rant about the use of abbreviations without explaination :) gs Funny
Naramyth 11-19-03, 04:36 PM	Sorry Funny, but I was a bit rushed, and I dont have the whole MIN/MAX:D board "rules" down yet...
catharz 11-19-03, 07:07 PM	I don't have the Miniatures handbook, so I can't help you with an 'HM' build. However, I was thinking that if you want to do some kind of Holy liberator/arcane build, and still demonstrate your evil/demonic past, HL/Nar demonbinder could work out quite well. Unfortuunately, you can't qualify for Nar demonbinder in 10 levels. Funny knows HL best, so he can probably come up with the best way to get to HL 7 (or at least the spellcasting abilities of that level - Windwalker seems a popular addition). I think that a standark is Rogue X/Barbarian 6-X, (which will never give you experience penalties), or Rogue X/Barbarian Y/Fighter 6-(X+Y). The Fastest way to qualify is Ex-paladin 1/Fighter X/Ranger Y/Barbarian 4-(X+Y) (wow I hate algebra). In the end, you end up as Something 5 or 6/Holy liberator (casting) 7 or 8/Nar demonbinder 6 (or Nar 2/EK 4 or something). Another option (just for fun, not neccisarily Min/Max) is taking various Evil-only PrCs, and then following up with good ones. According to 3.5 ruules, you don't loose the abilities of a PrC even if you no longer meet the prerequisites (unless the PrC states otherwise). A Mortalhunter/HL would be interesting to say the least, as would a Thrall or Disciple (although you may loose those PrC abilities if you no longer follow the Demon/Devil). Blah, there probably isn't too much useful Min/Max info in here, but there ya go.
Boondoggle 11-20-03, 08:24 AM	You need to decide on a fighter/sorcerer (in which case, see the sacred fighter/mage link above) or a charisma based fighter. Edit: Since I just noticed your stats, I have to suggest my lasher/holy liberator build: Originally posted by Boondoggle Rgr 2/Rog 2/Bbn 1/Ftr 1/Holy Liberator 3/Lasher 10/??? Attribute priority: Str, Cha, Con, Dex, Wis, Int Fight using a whip & a small spiked shield. Use Imp. Shield Bash (DotF) to knock your opponents away from you, take a 5' step back and still make a full attack while they will only get one attack on you. Alternatively, use divine might & divine shield to lay on the hurt. 1- Rog 1: Iron Will, Human: Power Attack 2- Rgr 1 3- Ftr 1: Exotic Weapon Prof. (Whip), Weapon Focus (Whip) 4- Rog 2 5- Rgr 2: TWF 6- Bbn 1: Imp. Shield Bash 7- HL 1 ... 9- HL 3: Divine Might 10- Lsh 1 ... 12- Lsh 3: Imp. Shield Bash (DotF) ... 15- Lsh 6: Divine Shield ... 18- Lsh 9: Imp. TWF ... 20- Ftr 2: GTWF Just go around telling people to rise up against their masters and use the weapons of oppressors (the whip) against them. Don't fear the whip, take control of it. Give the tyrants a taste of their own medicine. Empower yourselves by mastering this weapon and using it as a tool of freedom, not slavery. Join me and I will-- er, yeah, I think you get the idea.
Naramyth 11-20-03, 02:53 PM	I like Neosamurai's Build. But the thing is I want to add Holy Liberator instead of pally...so...how about... ftr1/scr6/EK1/HL3/EK2-8 wind-up with 7th level spells and a bab +16, plus I get the HL bennies, which is nice. I'd like to get Havoc Mage into this but I don't want to lose anymore casting abilities.
Sisyfos 11-20-03, 03:39 PM	Originally posted by Naramyth I like Neosamurai's Build. But the thing is I want to add Holy Liberator instead of pally...so...how about... ftr1/scr6/EK1/HL3/EK2-8 wind-up with 7th level spells and a bab +16, plus I get the HL bennies, which is nice. I'd like to get Havoc Mage into this but I don't want to lose anymore casting abilities. Hmm... I think it was the Monte Cook's book "Book of Hallowed Might" which presented some alternative paladins. The main idea that paladins could be of any good alignment, be it lawful, neutral or chaotic and their abilities would vary a bit accordingly. HL is just one example of a "chaotic good paladin". If you have access to that book then do take a look. Its a nice book and allows some interesting class combinations. Sisyfos PS. And worthwhile combos as losing 4 caster levels is much worse than losing 2...
Boondoggle 11-20-03, 08:09 PM	You don't need the fighter level. Losing a caster level is not worth one extra feat. As I've mentioned before, creatures of the Outsider type are automatically proficient with simple and martial weapons, check the MM glossery. You will also be wasting lots of skill pints into cross-class ranks of diplomacy in order to qualify for HL. For what you seem to want, I would suggest Sor 6/EK 9/Sacred Exorcist 4 Advancement: ECL +1: Tiefling lvl 1- Sor 1: Education (FRCS) lvl 2- Sor 2 lvl 3- Sor 3: Feat lvl 4- Sor 4 lvl 5- Sor 5 lvl 6- Sor 6: Feat lvl 7- EK 1: Bonus Feat lvl 8- EK 2 lvl 9- EK 3: Feat lvl 10- EK 4 lvl 11- EK 5 lvl 12- Sacred Exorcist 1: Feat lvl 13- Sacred Exorcist 2 lvl 14- Sacred Exorcist 3 lvl 15- Sacred Exorcist 4: Feat lvl 16- EK 6 lvl 17- EK 7 lvl 18- EK 8: Feat lvl 19 (ECL 20)- EK 9 This build only has a BAB of +15 (due to the ECL), but in order to get a BAB of +16, you have to sacrifice at least 4 caster levels (maybe not with Dragon Lance material). That's not worth the trade off, IMO.
catharz 11-20-03, 08:16 PM	Two out of 3 publications agree, if your 21st level is EK, you still gain a point of BAB (Check the ELHB, 3.5 FAQ, and 'Epic levels' section of the 3.5 DMG for 3 contradictory rulings), putting you at BAB +16.
Naramyth 11-21-03, 12:28 AM	Ok the fourth attack a round is not THAT big of a deal. Also sense this character is not the primary caster of my group, full progression is not the biggest of deals(altough 'tis nice:) ). Also, a few things about the Sacred Exorsist, 1. Why the big push for it? (other then cleric bab, full progression, and nice hit dice, although all of the above are nice:cool: . I guess I want too know, if there is anything else that goes well with the build... 2.You get the exorsism domain with SE, does that add to your spells a day (like a domain slot, for example). 3.Does a sorcerer gain the spells as spells known. I guess I just don't know how it all fits together.:sad: PS thanks about that MM reference I forgot about that. I'm not sure this is big enough to warent one but here you go...:cookie:
Boondoggle 11-21-03, 05:40 AM	Hmm, I just noticed that in the FAQ, catharz. I really hope this is one of the instances when the Sage does have his head out of his :censored: and asked the game designers to find out if this truly is what their intent was. I am getting very tired of his off the cuff answers when he doesn't have a clue what the game designers intended. Either way, you are correct. In that case, just add the last level of EK to my build :P . Oh, and domains gained for a sorcerer do add to spells known, and you gain the granted power. You don't, however, get extra slots.
Naramyth 11-21-03, 12:45 PM	Ok, so now the final question, do I go with Sacred Exorsist4 or Havoc Mage 5? scr6/EK1/HM5/EK7...or Bab +14 16th level casting battlecast 8th boondoggle's build of scr6/EK5/SE4/EK4...or Bab +15 18 level casting Sacred Exorsist stuff a combination of both... scr6/EK1/HM5/EK2/SE4/EK1 Bab +13 16th level casting battlecast 8th and Sacred Exorsist stuff I really like the look of the second build but I also want battlecast...do you think that battlecast is worth my 2 caster levels? If not, which ninth level spell should I take? edit/ Or after doing a bit of searching, scr6/EK1/HM2/WH2/EK2/SE4/EK2 bab +14 16th level caster Sacred Exorsist stuff Battlecast 2 cha to saves smite evil 1/day WH=Witch Hunter this looks very nice also /edit