A lot of people 'try' to use prec apprentice; but how about [Archive] - Wizards Community

A lot of people 'try' to use prec apprentice; but how about [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Judging Eagle
11-22-05, 07:38 PM So many people try to use precosious apprentice to qualify for dual-casting or mixed casting/sneaking/melee builds earlier on so that they can tack on more PrCs and their abilities.

However, someone here proved that using prec. appr. to qualify for dual casting has the impossibility of such a thing since the prec. app. feat will stop working for the lvl 1 caster side and will then result in giving an extra 2nd lvl spell to the casting side that has hit 3rd lvl (so, you're lvl 1 wiz with prec app to cast command undead and you're going to take 3 lvls of cleric then qualify for true necro; but once you've got a 2nd caster level in cleric the prec apprentice will swap and merely grant an other 2nd lvl cleric spell per day, so it can't be used in such a manner).

Now, that's all well and good. However what about if we took a feat that boosted casting for a class that had to be specified when the feat is chosen?

Such as practised spell caster? You have to state where those up to 4 extra caster levels will add to when you pick and they can't get changed.

So the wiz 1/cleric 4 casts as a wiz 4 cleric 4, but can't cast 2nd lvl wiz spells. Meaning that this is handy for having caster levels, but usually most PrC's require you to be able to cast specific levels of spells if not specific spells.

Now, we're going for a bit of a stretch here; however out of the complete warrior book we have a very unusual precedent: the mindspy class and how you can potentially qualify for it.

The mindspy class says that you can qualify if you own/use a helm of telepathy to qualify for the ability to use telepathy requirement.

So, if a wizard 1 with 4 levels of something else, with practised spell caster; plus several scrolls of 2nd level spells; that they can cast since they're the required level to cast such spells, could potentially qualify for mixed casting PrCs that require the character to be able to cast 2nd lvl spells.

Of course PrCs that require the PC to know spells would be different I'd guess, however they could always scribe them if they're a wizard (or archivist) but wouldn't be able to cast them unless someone else scribed them an appropriate scroll that they could cast from.
tsuyoshikentsu
11-22-05, 08:33 PM Caster level doesn't change spells available.

HOWEVER!

There are some few PrC's that have caster level as a class requirement! (IE, arcane caster level 2nd or whatever.)
ShadowCub
11-22-05, 09:14 PM So many people try to use precosious apprentice to qualify for dual-casting or mixed casting/sneaking/melee builds earlier on so that they can tack on more PrCs and their abilities.

However, someone here proved that using prec. appr. to qualify for dual casting has the impossibility of such a thing since the prec. app. feat will stop working for the lvl 1 caster side and will then result in giving an extra 2nd lvl spell to the casting side that has hit 3rd lvl (so, you're lvl 1 wiz with prec app to cast command undead and you're going to take 3 lvls of cleric then qualify for true necro; but once you've got a 2nd caster level in cleric the prec apprentice will swap and merely grant an other 2nd lvl cleric spell per day, so it can't be used in such a manner).

I'd like to see who "proved" that a feat that can be taken ONLY by arcane spell casters, that grants a 2nd level arcane spell "swaps" and suddenly applies to a divine spellcasting class instead.

Got a link?
Sir Gummibaerchen
11-23-05, 12:28 AM It has nothing to do with arcane or divine spellcasters. Read the feat again, it says that you lose the feat when you get the ability to cast 2nd level spells, not specified if arcane/divine or even psionic. So you get one of wiz3/sor4/psi3/cl3/dru3/brd5/pal10/rgr10/psw4/wil4 (only counting the classes from the SRD), you lose the benefit of the feat.
ShadowCub
11-23-05, 01:46 AM Precocious Apprentice

Your master has shown you the basics of a spell beyond the normal limits of your experience and training.

Prerequisites: Int 15 or Cha 15, arcane spellcaster level 1

Benefit: Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school that is not barred to you. You can cast that spell once per day. In effect, you have an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used to cast the chosen spell, and cannot be used for any other purpose. If you cannot cast 2nd-level spells yet, you must succeed on a caster level check (DC 8) to successfully cast the spell; if you fail, you miscast the spell to no effect. Your caster level with the chosen spell is your normal caster level, even if this is insufficient to cast the spell under normal circumstances.

When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the previous benefit described above. Instead, you simply have an extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you may use to prepare (or spontaneously cast, if you are a spontaneous caster) 2nd-level or lower spells as you normally would.

You also gain a +2 bonus on all Spellcraft checks.

Special: You can only take this feat as a 1st-level character.

It has nothing to do with arcane or divine spellcasters. Read the feat again, it says that you lose the feat when you get the ability to cast 2nd level spells, not specified if arcane/divine or even psionic. So you get one of wiz3/sor4/psi3/cl3/dru3/brd5/pal10/rgr10/psw4/wil4 (only counting the classes from the SRD), you lose the benefit of the feat.

I suppose it could be read as transferring to a differect class. But at the same time, the preq is Arcane Caster 1, only taken at level 1. Grants a spell from a "school that is not barred to you". Last I checked, Divine spells & Psionic powers don't have schools, so that would be an arcane spell for an arcane caster. I don't find it unreasonable to read it as remaining with that class as benefits elsewhere when applied to one caster class can not be transferred to another class. (Bonus caster levels from PrCs, for example.)

Did anybody ever run this by CustSrvc?

And I'd still like to see the original thread which I've been unable to locate through Google.
deathwishjoe
11-23-05, 02:04 AM all spells come from a school no matter what. look at the cleric spell heal. it comes from the conjuration school.

I would like to say though that Ive found a way to break the precocious apprentice feat to get into theurgic PrCs.

When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the previous benefit described above.

if we can assume the gaining level 2 cleric spells here causes us to loose the ability as it doesnt specify between arcane and divine then this line,

Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school that is not barred to you.

should allow us to take a divine spell as it doesnt specify wether or not you gain an arcane or divine spell. all you need to do is make sure that you gain 2nd level spells from each class at the same time from the theurge class.
ShadowCub
11-23-05, 02:15 AM all spells come from a school no matter what. look at the cleric spell heal. it comes from the conjuration school.

I would like to say though that Ive found a way to break the precocious apprentice feat to get into theurgic PrCs. When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the previous benefit described above.if we can assume the gaining level 2 cleric spells here causes us to loose the ability as it doesnt specify between arcane and divine then this line,Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school that is not barred to you.should allow us to take a divine spell as it doesnt specify wether or not you gain an arcane or divine spell. all you need to do is make sure that you gain 2nd level spells from each class at the same time from the theurge class.

Well, actually, by that logic, it would appear the Wizard 3 is all that's needed to enter Mystic Theurge. When you gain the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells, simply apply the benefit of Precocious Apprentice to allow you to cast a 2nd Level Cleric spell. (They're not prohibited to you. You're simply not able to cast them. But this feat with fix that, just like it fixed your not being able to cast a 2nd level Wizard spell when you were only 1st level.)

*Poof* Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10 grants spells as a 13 level Wizard and a 10 level divine class, no actual divine class necessary.

On a less tongue in cheek note, I've sent a message to CustSrvc for clarification....
deathwishjoe
11-23-05, 02:23 AM well I'd argue that with out a divine spell casting class the +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class would be wasted. but youd still qualify for the PrC.
Judging Eagle
11-23-05, 05:12 PM I was about to say "Now hold on a second there Shadowcub" but the MT has a skill req of only 6 in arcana and 6 in religion for skill ranks.

In theory a precosious apprentice wizard could learn grace from a X spell from a cleric/druid/archivist/shujena/shaman mentor, and qualify at lvl 3. Meaning that MT could be even more broken than anticipated. Take the feat practised caster (divine w/e) to act like 13 th wiz 10 lvl cleric (13th for casting).
20goingon1232
11-23-05, 06:04 PM It has nothing to do with arcane or divine spellcasters. Read the feat again, it says that you lose the feat when you get the ability to cast 2nd level spells, not specified if arcane/divine or even psionic. So you get one of wiz3/sor4/psi3/cl3/dru3/brd5/pal10/rgr10/psw4/wil4 (only counting the classes from the SRD), you lose the benefit of the feat.
Powers are not spells. Even with full transparency. Preco works for Psionic/Arcane or Psionic/Divine combos. Just not Arcane/Divine Combos.
Otto the Bugbear
11-23-05, 07:52 PM The originator of the logic is Mommy was an Orc. That thread lasted quite a while, but IIRC, nobody was able to refute his logic on that matter.

Cheers

Otto :)
runestar
11-23-05, 09:37 PM The aforementioned feat(who name shall remain unspoken in my games... ;) would still allow you to qualify for prcs like spellsword or cerebremancer. Wiz1/psi3/cerebremancer10 is still popular, since it relies only on 1 key spellcasting stat, and 2lv powers don't interfere with 2lv spells in any way, so it in no way interferes with the workings of the feat.

But for multiclass spellcasters, the feat doesn't work, for reasons already listed above.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Judging Eagle 11-22-05, 07:38 PM	So many people try to use precosious apprentice to qualify for dual-casting or mixed casting/sneaking/melee builds earlier on so that they can tack on more PrCs and their abilities. However, someone here proved that using prec. appr. to qualify for dual casting has the impossibility of such a thing since the prec. app. feat will stop working for the lvl 1 caster side and will then result in giving an extra 2nd lvl spell to the casting side that has hit 3rd lvl (so, you're lvl 1 wiz with prec app to cast command undead and you're going to take 3 lvls of cleric then qualify for true necro; but once you've got a 2nd caster level in cleric the prec apprentice will swap and merely grant an other 2nd lvl cleric spell per day, so it can't be used in such a manner). Now, that's all well and good. However what about if we took a feat that boosted casting for a class that had to be specified when the feat is chosen? Such as practised spell caster? You have to state where those up to 4 extra caster levels will add to when you pick and they can't get changed. So the wiz 1/cleric 4 casts as a wiz 4 cleric 4, but can't cast 2nd lvl wiz spells. Meaning that this is handy for having caster levels, but usually most PrC's require you to be able to cast specific levels of spells if not specific spells. Now, we're going for a bit of a stretch here; however out of the complete warrior book we have a very unusual precedent: the mindspy class and how you can potentially qualify for it. The mindspy class says that you can qualify if you own/use a helm of telepathy to qualify for the ability to use telepathy requirement. So, if a wizard 1 with 4 levels of something else, with practised spell caster; plus several scrolls of 2nd level spells; that they can cast since they're the required level to cast such spells, could potentially qualify for mixed casting PrCs that require the character to be able to cast 2nd lvl spells. Of course PrCs that require the PC to know spells would be different I'd guess, however they could always scribe them if they're a wizard (or archivist) but wouldn't be able to cast them unless someone else scribed them an appropriate scroll that they could cast from.
tsuyoshikentsu 11-22-05, 08:33 PM	Caster level doesn't change spells available. HOWEVER! There are some few PrC's that have caster level as a class requirement! (IE, arcane caster level 2nd or whatever.)
ShadowCub 11-22-05, 09:14 PM	So many people try to use precosious apprentice to qualify for dual-casting or mixed casting/sneaking/melee builds earlier on so that they can tack on more PrCs and their abilities. However, someone here proved that using prec. appr. to qualify for dual casting has the impossibility of such a thing since the prec. app. feat will stop working for the lvl 1 caster side and will then result in giving an extra 2nd lvl spell to the casting side that has hit 3rd lvl (so, you're lvl 1 wiz with prec app to cast command undead and you're going to take 3 lvls of cleric then qualify for true necro; but once you've got a 2nd caster level in cleric the prec apprentice will swap and merely grant an other 2nd lvl cleric spell per day, so it can't be used in such a manner). I'd like to see who "proved" that a feat that can be taken ONLY by arcane spell casters, that grants a 2nd level arcane spell "swaps" and suddenly applies to a divine spellcasting class instead. Got a link?
Sir Gummibaerchen 11-23-05, 12:28 AM	It has nothing to do with arcane or divine spellcasters. Read the feat again, it says that you lose the feat when you get the ability to cast 2nd level spells, not specified if arcane/divine or even psionic. So you get one of wiz3/sor4/psi3/cl3/dru3/brd5/pal10/rgr10/psw4/wil4 (only counting the classes from the SRD), you lose the benefit of the feat.
ShadowCub 11-23-05, 01:46 AM	Precocious Apprentice Your master has shown you the basics of a spell beyond the normal limits of your experience and training. Prerequisites: Int 15 or Cha 15, arcane spellcaster level 1 Benefit: Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school that is not barred to you. You can cast that spell once per day. In effect, you have an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used to cast the chosen spell, and cannot be used for any other purpose. If you cannot cast 2nd-level spells yet, you must succeed on a caster level check (DC 8) to successfully cast the spell; if you fail, you miscast the spell to no effect. Your caster level with the chosen spell is your normal caster level, even if this is insufficient to cast the spell under normal circumstances. When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the previous benefit described above. Instead, you simply have an extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you may use to prepare (or spontaneously cast, if you are a spontaneous caster) 2nd-level or lower spells as you normally would. You also gain a +2 bonus on all Spellcraft checks. Special: You can only take this feat as a 1st-level character. It has nothing to do with arcane or divine spellcasters. Read the feat again, it says that you lose the feat when you get the ability to cast 2nd level spells, not specified if arcane/divine or even psionic. So you get one of wiz3/sor4/psi3/cl3/dru3/brd5/pal10/rgr10/psw4/wil4 (only counting the classes from the SRD), you lose the benefit of the feat. I suppose it could be read as transferring to a differect class. But at the same time, the preq is Arcane Caster 1, only taken at level 1. Grants a spell from a "school that is not barred to you". Last I checked, Divine spells & Psionic powers don't have schools, so that would be an arcane spell for an arcane caster. I don't find it unreasonable to read it as remaining with that class as benefits elsewhere when applied to one caster class can not be transferred to another class. (Bonus caster levels from PrCs, for example.) Did anybody ever run this by CustSrvc? And I'd still like to see the original thread which I've been unable to locate through Google.
deathwishjoe 11-23-05, 02:04 AM	all spells come from a school no matter what. look at the cleric spell heal. it comes from the conjuration school. I would like to say though that Ive found a way to break the precocious apprentice feat to get into theurgic PrCs. When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the previous benefit described above. if we can assume the gaining level 2 cleric spells here causes us to loose the ability as it doesnt specify between arcane and divine then this line, Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school that is not barred to you. should allow us to take a divine spell as it doesnt specify wether or not you gain an arcane or divine spell. all you need to do is make sure that you gain 2nd level spells from each class at the same time from the theurge class.
ShadowCub 11-23-05, 02:15 AM	all spells come from a school no matter what. look at the cleric spell heal. it comes from the conjuration school. I would like to say though that Ive found a way to break the precocious apprentice feat to get into theurgic PrCs. When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the previous benefit described above.if we can assume the gaining level 2 cleric spells here causes us to loose the ability as it doesnt specify between arcane and divine then this line,Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school that is not barred to you.should allow us to take a divine spell as it doesnt specify wether or not you gain an arcane or divine spell. all you need to do is make sure that you gain 2nd level spells from each class at the same time from the theurge class. Well, actually, by that logic, it would appear the Wizard 3 is all that's needed to enter Mystic Theurge. When you gain the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells, simply apply the benefit of Precocious Apprentice to allow you to cast a 2nd Level Cleric spell. (They're not prohibited to you. You're simply not able to cast them. But this feat with fix that, just like it fixed your not being able to cast a 2nd level Wizard spell when you were only 1st level.) Poof Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10 grants spells as a 13 level Wizard and a 10 level divine class, no actual divine class necessary. On a less tongue in cheek note, I've sent a message to CustSrvc for clarification....
deathwishjoe 11-23-05, 02:23 AM	well I'd argue that with out a divine spell casting class the +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class would be wasted. but youd still qualify for the PrC.
Judging Eagle 11-23-05, 05:12 PM	I was about to say "Now hold on a second there Shadowcub" but the MT has a skill req of only 6 in arcana and 6 in religion for skill ranks. In theory a precosious apprentice wizard could learn grace from a X spell from a cleric/druid/archivist/shujena/shaman mentor, and qualify at lvl 3. Meaning that MT could be even more broken than anticipated. Take the feat practised caster (divine w/e) to act like 13 th wiz 10 lvl cleric (13th for casting).
20goingon1232 11-23-05, 06:04 PM	It has nothing to do with arcane or divine spellcasters. Read the feat again, it says that you lose the feat when you get the ability to cast 2nd level spells, not specified if arcane/divine or even psionic. So you get one of wiz3/sor4/psi3/cl3/dru3/brd5/pal10/rgr10/psw4/wil4 (only counting the classes from the SRD), you lose the benefit of the feat. Powers are not spells. Even with full transparency. Preco works for Psionic/Arcane or Psionic/Divine combos. Just not Arcane/Divine Combos.
Otto the Bugbear 11-23-05, 07:52 PM	The originator of the logic is Mommy was an Orc. That thread lasted quite a while, but IIRC, nobody was able to refute his logic on that matter. Cheers Otto :)
runestar 11-23-05, 09:37 PM	The aforementioned feat(who name shall remain unspoken in my games... ;) would still allow you to qualify for prcs like spellsword or cerebremancer. Wiz1/psi3/cerebremancer10 is still popular, since it relies only on 1 key spellcasting stat, and 2lv powers don't interfere with 2lv spells in any way, so it in no way interferes with the workings of the feat. But for multiclass spellcasters, the feat doesn't work, for reasons already listed above.