A merciless Blackguard...that isn't terrible. [Archive] - Wizards Community

A merciless Blackguard...that isn't terrible. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Arono1290
08-01-06, 09:30 PM Pretty much, I have no idea what to do to make the class work. I've made a few as villains, and they all die terrible deaths and don't put up much of a fight. I don't like what blackguard is going for, seeing as how usually the big bad demon/devil worshipper guy wears full plate, but at the same time, hide is a prereq? Key thing here though is that it has to use these rules: (PHBI, PHBII, DMGI, DMGII, BoED, CAdv, CW, CD, Libris Mortis..all as far 3.5 as they can go. 28 point buy, human. I'm going for the typical 'evil badguy' look of heavy armor and a greatsword, too) Was trying to appeal to the fact you have sunder, power attack and cleave as prereqs..so high strength is a must. I don't know honestly how to make the sneak attack/hide angle work, especially without move silently. At the same time, to make him work in melee, I'd like to avoid losing even 1 point of BAB. So I'm not sure if I should just forget about the hide/sneak attacks. What would be the most effective blackguard build? If their is a thread regarding this, excellent, but seeing as how search is down..
Kresalak
08-01-06, 09:43 PM If you could use Five Nations, you could go Paladin of (evil variant, I like Antipaladin myself, for Slaughter the Weak) 2/Hexblade 3/Ur-Priest 2/Bone Knight 10/Blackguard 2/full BAB class 1 (fighter is a good idea). You get Cha to saves twice, full Ur-Priest casting, full Bone Knight abilities, Mettle, BAB +16 (I mean +20, since you have Divine Power) and Cha to saves a third time vs spells and SLAs.
jstorrie
08-01-06, 10:41 PM Blackguard's Aura of Despair synergizes well with abilities that press your opponent's saves. It also, of course, synergizes well with Charisma. I would suggest a little something I call:

uh, I don't have a name for this one, but here is the build,. Mileage may vary depending on the available stats in your campaign, as it is as triple-attribute dependent as a paladin: Str, Con, Cha.

Half-Orc
1 Fighter Cleave, Power Attack
2 Fighter Improved Bull Rush
3 Hexblade Iron Will
4 Hexblade
5 Fighter
6 Hexblade Shock Trooper
7 Fighter Improved Sunder
8 Blackguard
9 Blackguard Headlong Rush
10 Blackguard
11 Menacing Brute
12 Menacing Brute Divine Might
13 Menacing Brute
14 Menacing Brute
15 Menacing Brute Staggering Strike
16 Ravager
17 Ravager
18 Ravager Frightful Presence
19 Ravager
20 Ravager

The main trick here is to charge and splatter someone by dropping a crazy amount of Power Attack damage via Shock Trooper, and then doubling it via Headlong Rush. Charging triggers your frightful presence ability, dropping someone triggers your making an example ability, and foes close to you are going to have -4 to their saves, so you can hopefully cower some of them, splitting up the defenders. Your minions, of course, will help by dropping debilitating or fear effects to synergize. After the initial charge you're still tough enough to dish out mean damage via standard Power Attack / Divine Might (with Cruelest Cut and Staggering Strike to help out, too) and you have huge saves and mettle to keep you going. Charisma-focused half-orc?
Necromas
08-01-06, 10:52 PM Somehow I had the idea that a Blackgaurd based char would have more then 2 blackgaurd levels... just a thought though.
Kresalak
08-01-06, 11:05 PM Blackguard's not worth much past level 3.

That last level in my build should be Blackguard 3, for Aura of Despair. Also, take Serenity, so that the Cha to saves from Antipaladin becomes Wisdom to saves, and Wisdom is your casting stat.
Arono1290
08-01-06, 11:06 PM That's what I mean. I want to use the actual Blackguard class, not hop around so much. I guess the class is just too inflexible to get to work if you take it for more then five? 8? levels?
wolfie-kun
08-01-06, 11:08 PM Somehow I had the idea that a Blackgaurd based char would have more then 2 blackgaurd levels... just a thought though.
I have a respectable Enlightened Fist build that has more Eldritch Knight levels than EF levels. You got a point?
Kresalak
08-01-06, 11:10 PM The class really doesn't give any useful abilities past 3rd level. Fiendish Servant generally doesn't do much, SA is too small to matter, and the spells aren't very good.
Necromas
08-01-06, 11:11 PM I have a respectable Enlightened Fist build that has more Eldritch Knight levels than EF levels. You got a point?

My point is I think he was asking for builds based on the blackgaurd, that make the blackgaurd a decent class, not taking a quick dip into the class and then bouncing around to a bunch of other classes.
rilem
08-01-06, 11:14 PM What level?

Nar Demonbinder is from a 3.5-era book (barely; Unapproachable East predates PHB 3.5 but the tiny text at the start says it's 3.5 kosher)So the old BaseClassX/Blackguard7/Demonbinder2/Spellsword1/EKx trick works. 4th level divine spells, 8th level arcane spells, Divine Might/Arcane Strike, etc.

The Bomb of Slaughter (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2418019&postcount=2) is pretty nasty, though also only 3 blackguard levels.

Exactly how are you playing the blackguard that it got its head handed to it?
Surreal
08-02-06, 12:10 AM Nar Demonbinder is from a 3.5-era book (barely; Unapproachable East predates PHB 3.5 but the tiny text at the start says it's 3.5 kosher)So the old BaseClassX/Blackguard7/Demonbinder2/Spellsword1/EKx trick works. 4th level divine spells, 8th level arcane spells, Divine Might/Arcane Strike, etc.
I can't take credit for this one, but: Fallen Paladin 1/Blackguard 10/Nar Demonbinder XYZ/whatever XYZ is probably a more effective method.
jstorrie
08-02-06, 12:36 AM Fallen Paladin 1 / Blackguard 10 / Menacing Brute 5 / Fighter 2 / Hexblade 2 is a less-optimized, more Blackguard-reliant version of the build above. You can't fit in as many abilities this way, however, which is why I wouldn't do it.
Necromas
08-02-06, 09:13 AM Can you qualify for blackgaurd with only one paladin level?
dan8uillin
08-02-06, 09:49 AM Throw him/her in a chariot as the driver(sword and fist pages 77-79), and have him cast vile lance(book of vile darkness, 4th level blackguard spell) on himself. make sure he has the Chariot charge feat(from the same book) and it's requisites.He'll also actually need monkey grip to control the chariot with one hand (s)he'll be doing double damage, and all vile at that. then get yourself a passenger with a longspear or a lance and the same feats, and s/he'll be doing triple damage. have the chariot pulled by nightmares and buy a skyrider's platform(arms and equipment) so that it can fly around.

strategy involves a lot of charging, sideswiping with wheel scythes, and looping around for more. when the chariot is disabled/nightmares killed, switch to foot slogging and melee, or whatever else you want.
saru
08-02-06, 09:53 AM you convert levels of paladin to level of blackguard (as described in blackguard description).
for example : you're paladin 10 and you become evil, so you turn to blackguard and can trade levels of paladin to level of blackguard to become paladin 1/blackguard 9.

and for me, a great blackguard is Fighter1/FallenPalladin1/Blackguard10/NarDemonbinder2/Spellsword1/EK5
BAB +19, 10% asf, 4th level blackguard spells, 8th level ND spells, Divine might/arcane strike.
rilem
08-02-06, 10:08 AM Oh, I agree that Fallen Paladin/BlackGuard is a better setup; I should've mentioned it, but it's a bit more restrictive in RP terms without more data from the original poster.
Lt_Col_Pilgrim
08-02-06, 10:11 AM Ranger / Archer cohort w/ a bow and Distracting Shot from PHB - his targets are treated as flanked, firing of the sneak damage from the Blackguard - could be fun.

Maybe pimp charisma for a ....

Marshal (cha to flanking damage), Paladin (fallen), Hexblade ... hmm too bad Hexblade doesn't get Detect Thoughts ... Blackguard ... now if you could only get Detect Thoughts and could Mindspy you'd be one mean CHA-driven bastard.
Satori
08-02-06, 10:16 AM I personally enjoy a sneakier Blackguard.

Something like Human Fighter 4/Ranger 1/Dread Commando 5/Blackguard 10

The feat requirements are steep, but you should be able to get into Blackguard by level 10.

Human: Dodge
1: Mobility
Ftr 1: Power Attack
Ftr 2: Cleave
3: Improved Sunder
(The rest is up for grabs)

Wear Mithral Heavy Armor, wield a Greatsword, pick up Improved Buckler Defense, pick up Divine Might/Divine Shield, and Power Attack/Smite the heck out of people with Cha to Shield AC, Attack, Damage, and Sneak Attack/Sudden Strike.

Grabbing Spring Attack might also be useful for leaping in, Sundering their weapon, then leaping back out.

You're the sneak attacking rogue that leaps out of hiding and strikes with the damage of a Barbarian while remaining as armored as a Fighter.
lostone
08-02-06, 01:11 PM If I want a blackguard BBEG I just make a powerful melee fighter, make him LE and call it a blackguard. I love Bone Knights, I'll second that.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arono1290 08-01-06, 09:30 PM	Pretty much, I have no idea what to do to make the class work. I've made a few as villains, and they all die terrible deaths and don't put up much of a fight. I don't like what blackguard is going for, seeing as how usually the big bad demon/devil worshipper guy wears full plate, but at the same time, hide is a prereq? Key thing here though is that it has to use these rules: (PHBI, PHBII, DMGI, DMGII, BoED, CAdv, CW, CD, Libris Mortis..all as far 3.5 as they can go. 28 point buy, human. I'm going for the typical 'evil badguy' look of heavy armor and a greatsword, too) Was trying to appeal to the fact you have sunder, power attack and cleave as prereqs..so high strength is a must. I don't know honestly how to make the sneak attack/hide angle work, especially without move silently. At the same time, to make him work in melee, I'd like to avoid losing even 1 point of BAB. So I'm not sure if I should just forget about the hide/sneak attacks. What would be the most effective blackguard build? If their is a thread regarding this, excellent, but seeing as how search is down..
Kresalak 08-01-06, 09:43 PM	If you could use Five Nations, you could go Paladin of (evil variant, I like Antipaladin myself, for Slaughter the Weak) 2/Hexblade 3/Ur-Priest 2/Bone Knight 10/Blackguard 2/full BAB class 1 (fighter is a good idea). You get Cha to saves twice, full Ur-Priest casting, full Bone Knight abilities, Mettle, BAB +16 (I mean +20, since you have Divine Power) and Cha to saves a third time vs spells and SLAs.
jstorrie 08-01-06, 10:41 PM	Blackguard's Aura of Despair synergizes well with abilities that press your opponent's saves. It also, of course, synergizes well with Charisma. I would suggest a little something I call: uh, I don't have a name for this one, but here is the build,. Mileage may vary depending on the available stats in your campaign, as it is as triple-attribute dependent as a paladin: Str, Con, Cha. Half-Orc 1 Fighter Cleave, Power Attack 2 Fighter Improved Bull Rush 3 Hexblade Iron Will 4 Hexblade 5 Fighter 6 Hexblade Shock Trooper 7 Fighter Improved Sunder 8 Blackguard 9 Blackguard Headlong Rush 10 Blackguard 11 Menacing Brute 12 Menacing Brute Divine Might 13 Menacing Brute 14 Menacing Brute 15 Menacing Brute Staggering Strike 16 Ravager 17 Ravager 18 Ravager Frightful Presence 19 Ravager 20 Ravager The main trick here is to charge and splatter someone by dropping a crazy amount of Power Attack damage via Shock Trooper, and then doubling it via Headlong Rush. Charging triggers your frightful presence ability, dropping someone triggers your making an example ability, and foes close to you are going to have -4 to their saves, so you can hopefully cower some of them, splitting up the defenders. Your minions, of course, will help by dropping debilitating or fear effects to synergize. After the initial charge you're still tough enough to dish out mean damage via standard Power Attack / Divine Might (with Cruelest Cut and Staggering Strike to help out, too) and you have huge saves and mettle to keep you going. Charisma-focused half-orc?
Necromas 08-01-06, 10:52 PM	Somehow I had the idea that a Blackgaurd based char would have more then 2 blackgaurd levels... just a thought though.
Kresalak 08-01-06, 11:05 PM	Blackguard's not worth much past level 3. That last level in my build should be Blackguard 3, for Aura of Despair. Also, take Serenity, so that the Cha to saves from Antipaladin becomes Wisdom to saves, and Wisdom is your casting stat.
Arono1290 08-01-06, 11:06 PM	That's what I mean. I want to use the actual Blackguard class, not hop around so much. I guess the class is just too inflexible to get to work if you take it for more then five? 8? levels?
wolfie-kun 08-01-06, 11:08 PM	Somehow I had the idea that a Blackgaurd based char would have more then 2 blackgaurd levels... just a thought though. I have a respectable Enlightened Fist build that has more Eldritch Knight levels than EF levels. You got a point?
Kresalak 08-01-06, 11:10 PM	The class really doesn't give any useful abilities past 3rd level. Fiendish Servant generally doesn't do much, SA is too small to matter, and the spells aren't very good.
Necromas 08-01-06, 11:11 PM	I have a respectable Enlightened Fist build that has more Eldritch Knight levels than EF levels. You got a point? My point is I think he was asking for builds based on the blackgaurd, that make the blackgaurd a decent class, not taking a quick dip into the class and then bouncing around to a bunch of other classes.
rilem 08-01-06, 11:14 PM	What level? Nar Demonbinder is from a 3.5-era book (barely; Unapproachable East predates PHB 3.5 but the tiny text at the start says it's 3.5 kosher)So the old BaseClassX/Blackguard7/Demonbinder2/Spellsword1/EKx trick works. 4th level divine spells, 8th level arcane spells, Divine Might/Arcane Strike, etc. The Bomb of Slaughter (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=2418019&postcount=2) is pretty nasty, though also only 3 blackguard levels. Exactly how are you playing the blackguard that it got its head handed to it?
Surreal 08-02-06, 12:10 AM	Nar Demonbinder is from a 3.5-era book (barely; Unapproachable East predates PHB 3.5 but the tiny text at the start says it's 3.5 kosher)So the old BaseClassX/Blackguard7/Demonbinder2/Spellsword1/EKx trick works. 4th level divine spells, 8th level arcane spells, Divine Might/Arcane Strike, etc. I can't take credit for this one, but: Fallen Paladin 1/Blackguard 10/Nar Demonbinder XYZ/whatever XYZ is probably a more effective method.
jstorrie 08-02-06, 12:36 AM	Fallen Paladin 1 / Blackguard 10 / Menacing Brute 5 / Fighter 2 / Hexblade 2 is a less-optimized, more Blackguard-reliant version of the build above. You can't fit in as many abilities this way, however, which is why I wouldn't do it.
Necromas 08-02-06, 09:13 AM	Can you qualify for blackgaurd with only one paladin level?
dan8uillin 08-02-06, 09:49 AM	Throw him/her in a chariot as the driver(sword and fist pages 77-79), and have him cast vile lance(book of vile darkness, 4th level blackguard spell) on himself. make sure he has the Chariot charge feat(from the same book) and it's requisites.He'll also actually need monkey grip to control the chariot with one hand (s)he'll be doing double damage, and all vile at that. then get yourself a passenger with a longspear or a lance and the same feats, and s/he'll be doing triple damage. have the chariot pulled by nightmares and buy a skyrider's platform(arms and equipment) so that it can fly around. strategy involves a lot of charging, sideswiping with wheel scythes, and looping around for more. when the chariot is disabled/nightmares killed, switch to foot slogging and melee, or whatever else you want.
saru 08-02-06, 09:53 AM	you convert levels of paladin to level of blackguard (as described in blackguard description). for example : you're paladin 10 and you become evil, so you turn to blackguard and can trade levels of paladin to level of blackguard to become paladin 1/blackguard 9. and for me, a great blackguard is Fighter1/FallenPalladin1/Blackguard10/NarDemonbinder2/Spellsword1/EK5 BAB +19, 10% asf, 4th level blackguard spells, 8th level ND spells, Divine might/arcane strike.
rilem 08-02-06, 10:08 AM	Oh, I agree that Fallen Paladin/BlackGuard is a better setup; I should've mentioned it, but it's a bit more restrictive in RP terms without more data from the original poster.
Lt_Col_Pilgrim 08-02-06, 10:11 AM	Ranger / Archer cohort w/ a bow and Distracting Shot from PHB - his targets are treated as flanked, firing of the sneak damage from the Blackguard - could be fun. Maybe pimp charisma for a .... Marshal (cha to flanking damage), Paladin (fallen), Hexblade ... hmm too bad Hexblade doesn't get Detect Thoughts ... Blackguard ... now if you could only get Detect Thoughts and could Mindspy you'd be one mean CHA-driven bastard.
Satori 08-02-06, 10:16 AM	I personally enjoy a sneakier Blackguard. Something like Human Fighter 4/Ranger 1/Dread Commando 5/Blackguard 10 The feat requirements are steep, but you should be able to get into Blackguard by level 10. Human: Dodge 1: Mobility Ftr 1: Power Attack Ftr 2: Cleave 3: Improved Sunder (The rest is up for grabs) Wear Mithral Heavy Armor, wield a Greatsword, pick up Improved Buckler Defense, pick up Divine Might/Divine Shield, and Power Attack/Smite the heck out of people with Cha to Shield AC, Attack, Damage, and Sneak Attack/Sudden Strike. Grabbing Spring Attack might also be useful for leaping in, Sundering their weapon, then leaping back out. You're the sneak attacking rogue that leaps out of hiding and strikes with the damage of a Barbarian while remaining as armored as a Fighter.
lostone 08-02-06, 01:11 PM	If I want a blackguard BBEG I just make a powerful melee fighter, make him LE and call it a blackguard. I love Bone Knights, I'll second that.