Post/Author/DateTime	Post
(TD)Faber 07-06-06, 05:57 PM	Hi, I've got a monkbuild here which isn't finished, I'd like some comment/advise to complete/adjust it. I use all the complete books and all the guidebooks (like sword and fist) I'ts mostly about feats or prestige classing I may have overlooked. Race: can't remember exactly but it gets +2 on WIS, DEX but a -2 on CHA and favored class is MONK. It has a LA of +1 (Are there better choices for this?) LVL 1: Stunning fist, impr. grapple LVL 2: Combat reflexes LVL 3: Weakening touch LVL 6: Impr. trip, Sun school LVL 9: Rapid stunning LVL 12: Rapid stunning LVL 15: Freezing the lifeblood LVL 18: ??????????? Gear is think he really needs: Ki straps- +5 DC stunning fist 500GP Gloves of fearsome grip- +5 on all grapple and climb checks 15000GP Monk's belt- +5 in monk level for unarmed damge and AC bonus 13000GP Dont know what to do after LVL 15. For feats or prestige-classing/cross-classing. I was thinking about extra stunning attacks or something like that, but I tend to think it is a waste of feats. Any thoughts? Every comment is appreciated. THANKS IN ADVANCE (TD)Faber
Kuroi Kenshi 07-06-06, 07:33 PM	I personally am not a monk expert in the least. However, if you do a google search for "mean_liar" I think you'll find plenty of monk-related posts, which should include the main monk optimization thread on these boards.
solbergb 07-06-06, 07:48 PM	+2 to dex and wis for -2 cha would be a nice trade if the +1 LA wasn't there. Pretty much there isn't anything worth an entire character level for a monk except perhaps one of those "Powerful Build" races that are treated as large even when they're medium, or something that gives a hefty str bonus with no wis/dex penalty and a size increase for only +1 LA. Generally the best races for monk are the LA0 ones standouts being: Human (feats are good) Half-orc (strength boost for the two stats monks don't need and no con penalty) Wood Elf (strength and dex boost for int and con. It is a tossup with half orc, con and dex are roughly as important, low light and darkvision are differently useful. The skill bonuses and weapon proficiencies tend to make wood elf monks a touch more common) Dwarf (con boost for cha lost is pretty much a win, and the save bonuses+darkvision make up for the lost Human feat) Size small races aren't recommended, half-elves are humans minus a useful feat, grey elves dump strength, which is bad, normal elves are kinda ok if you can't get wood elf - the weapon proficiencies and skill bonuses might be worthwhile for a stealth oriented monk and might make up for the human feat lost. As for all the other advice I might give on monks, I'd look at the other monk threads. I'll stick to what I can say in one paragraph or so. Attributes: Str and Wisdom are the most important stats. Don't dump either one without realizing you're giving up something very important to the monk...strength powers about 80% of the monk's offense, and wisdom affects saves, armor class and the other 20% of a monk's offensive options. Dex and con are roughly equal, both affect saves, both affect durability in melee. Dex powers combat reflexes, you want at least a bit of it...con works on everything that does damage, not just attack rolls. Neither is anywhere near as important as str or wis - in point buy "14's" are plenty here most of the time. Int is a distant third compared to con and dex, and only because the monk skill list is pretty nice. Cha is a complete dump stat, don't invest anything here. A monk can be a decent diplomat if he's smart but ugly, he won't be as good if he's dumb but prettier. Spend feats on offense, not defense. Monks are strong defensively as a class, having virtually no weaknesses beyond a medeocre low level armor class. Their offense though, often needs a bit of oomph. Especially do not do the dodge/mobility/spring attack trap. Only consider those feats if your offense seems mighty compared to the rest of the party and you want to tone it down some. I like your feat choice for a wisdom-focused monk, just be sure to have enough strength to power your flurry damage, grapple, and trip feats and to avoid needing to waste a feat on weapon finesse. Most monks that feel ineffectual lack enough strength to be a credible fighter class, and spent their feats on defense and mobility feats that are already covered by their skill list and class abilities well enough.
Thanatos42 07-06-06, 10:00 PM	Githzerai, at +6dex, +2wis, -2int, +2LA, and Favored class monk is my favorite race for high (10+) lvl monks; human otherwise. Note that powerful build allows one to wield larger weapons, it does not cause your natural weapons to be any larger (I believe this is listed in the FAQ). Allthough I've always thought that was kind of dumb, since you could still theoretically wear a large gauntlet...
wolfie-kun 07-07-06, 01:01 AM	If you have PHB II and want to increase damage in any given round, go for Fiery Fist and (maybe) Fiery Ki Defense at the higher levels. Or you could go for Combat Form feats, and end up with +2 AC (changing from one opponent to the next as an immediate action), fast healing 4 (a very useful thing for monks) and +4 to Will saves for twelve rounds each combat (Combat Focus, Defense, and Vigor). If you have a good Con, Robilar's Gambit will let you take advantage of your AoOs more easily. However, if you don't have (or have access to) that book, Elusive Target from CW is an excellent feat to help deal with some situations that can get annoying for monks (such as Power Attack)...though by this point you'd be wasting three feats just for that one... Defensive Throw may be good, but you're still taking Dodge for it. Prone Attack could be useful if you get tripped, with Lightning Reflexes (which no build ever seems to take) as a prereq. Past that, I need to know what books you have available...
(TD)Faber 07-07-06, 07:31 AM	+2 to dex and wis for -2 cha would be a nice trade if the +1 LA wasn't there. Pretty much there isn't anything worth an entire character level for a monk except perhaps one of those "Powerful Build" races that are treated as large even when they're medium, or something that gives a hefty str bonus with no wis/dex penalty and a size increase for only +1 LA. Generally the best races for monk are the LA0 ones standouts being: Human (feats are good) Half-orc (strength boost for the two stats monks don't need and no con penalty) Wood Elf (strength and dex boost for int and con. It is a tossup with half orc, con and dex are roughly as important, low light and darkvision are differently useful. The skill bonuses and weapon proficiencies tend to make wood elf monks a touch more common) Dwarf (con boost for cha lost is pretty much a win, and the save bonuses+darkvision make up for the lost Human feat) Size small races aren't recommended, half-elves are humans minus a useful feat, grey elves dump strength, which is bad, normal elves are kinda ok if you can't get wood elf - the weapon proficiencies and skill bonuses might be worthwhile for a stealth oriented monk and might make up for the human feat lost. As for all the other advice I might give on monks, I'd look at the other monk threads. I'll stick to what I can say in one paragraph or so. Attributes: Str and Wisdom are the most important stats. Don't dump either one without realizing you're giving up something very important to the monk...strength powers about 80% of the monk's offense, and wisdom affects saves, armor class and the other 20% of a monk's offensive options. Dex and con are roughly equal, both affect saves, both affect durability in melee. Dex powers combat reflexes, you want at least a bit of it...con works on everything that does damage, not just attack rolls. Neither is anywhere near as important as str or wis - in point buy "14's" are plenty here most of the time. Int is a distant third compared to con and dex, and only because the monk skill list is pretty nice. Cha is a complete dump stat, don't invest anything here. A monk can be a decent diplomat if he's smart but ugly, he won't be as good if he's dumb but prettier. Spend feats on offense, not defense. Monks are strong defensively as a class, having virtually no weaknesses beyond a medeocre low level armor class. Their offense though, often needs a bit of oomph. Especially do not do the dodge/mobility/spring attack trap. Only consider those feats if your offense seems mighty compared to the rest of the party and you want to tone it down some. I like your feat choice for a wisdom-focused monk, just be sure to have enough strength to power your flurry damage, grapple, and trip feats and to avoid needing to waste a feat on weapon finesse. Most monks that feel ineffectual lack enough strength to be a credible fighter class, and spent their feats on defense and mobility feats that are already covered by their skill list and class abilities well enough. Thanks, that was an interesting read. You're right about the dodge, spring attack mobility trap, I figured it wasn't really gonna help me. Githzerai, at +6dex, +2wis, -2int, +2LA, and Favored class monk is my favorite race for high (10+) lvl monks; human otherwise. Note that powerful build allows one to wield larger weapons, it does not cause your natural weapons to be any larger (I believe this is listed in the FAQ). Allthough I've always thought that was kind of dumb, since you could still theoretically wear a large gauntlet... My dungeon master only allows medium sized +1LA. We're using MM1,2 and 3 If you have PHB II and want to increase damage in any given round, go for Fiery Fist and (maybe) Fiery Ki Defense at the higher levels. Or you could go for Combat Form feats, and end up with +2 AC vs. two targets, fast healing 4 (a very useful thing for monks) and +4 to Will saves for twelve rounds each combat (Combat Focus, Defense, and Vigor). If you have a good Con, Robilar's Gambit will let you take advantage of your AoOs more easily. However, if you don't have (or have access to) that book, Elusive Target from CW is an excellent feat to help deal with some situations that can get annoying for monks (such as Power Attack)...though by this point you'd be wasting three feats just for that one... Defensive Throw may be good, but you're still taking Dodge for it. Prone Attack could be useful if you get tripped, with Lightning Reflexes (which no build ever seems to take) as a prereq. Past that, I need to know what books you have available... I have the PH DMG all the complete handbooks and all the guidebooks (like sword and fist and tome an blood)
Some Like It Hot 07-07-06, 08:33 AM	Note that powerful build allows one to wield larger weapons, it does not cause your natural weapons to be any larger (I believe this is listed in the FAQ). Allthough I've always thought that was kind of dumb, since you could still theoretically wear a large gauntlet... A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. Emphasis mine. People often forget that the monk's unarmed strikes are considered manufactured weapons as well as natural weapons. Also, the FAQ deals with natural attacks, not the monk's unarmed strike specifically. In my games, powerful build affects the Monk's unarmed strike solely because it is considered a manufactured weapon. -SLIH
Brol_The_Mighty 07-07-06, 08:45 AM	I've played a couple of monks now, and generally never stay in just monk. Which PrC to pick up is generally decided on what you want to do. Initiate of Draconic Mysteries is one of my favorite PrC's. Enlightened Fist is good. Takes a little more work on the PC's part (has spells) Shou Disciple is another VERY good one.(allows you to flurry with any weapon) Again, it all depends.
TheHumanDynamo 07-07-06, 09:06 AM	If your DM will allow Dragon Magazine stuff, use the Half Minotaur template from Dragon 313. It's +1 LA for being large and some GOOD modifiers.
NoldorForce 07-07-06, 09:10 AM	Warforged is another good race, assuming you grab a Battlefist or (assuming your DM will let you) two to increase your unarmed strike damage. However, they also have a Wis penalty.
wolfie-kun 07-07-06, 02:10 PM	Alright, now that I know what you've got (if you can get ahold of the PHB II I'd certainly recommend it), I can give some better advice instead of a lot that won't do anything for you. You need Deft Opportunist. There is absolutely no reason not to take that if you've got free feats and Combat Reflexes. If you want to stick with the AoO route, Expert Tactician is also good, though not as directly useful (good synergy with Deft Opportunist though, and a small amount of extra damage). You already meet the prereqs for both feats by level 4. If you want to focus more on removing annoying opponents from combat, go for Str-increasing items, so that your Grapple and Trip modifiers will be higher, and Wis-increasing items to increase the save DC for Stunning Fist and your AC at the same time. Take Clever Wrestling and Close-quarters Combat (taking Deft Opportunist is still a good idea if you take this route). However, if you go this way, oozes and such will become very, very annoying. If you want to simply increase your damage output (and it doesn't look like you do), Improved Natural Attack and Power Attack will help a little, though you'd be better off going with the uber magic weapon of doom (including the ki focus ability, of course).
(TD)Faber 07-07-06, 03:37 PM	Alright, now that I know what you've got (if you can get ahold of the PHB II I'd certainly recommend it), I can give some better advice instead of a lot that won't do anything for you. You need Deft Opportunist. There is absolutely no reason not to take that if you've got free feats and Combat Reflexes. If you want to stick with the AoO route, Expert Tactician is also good, though not as directly useful (good synergy with Deft Opportunist though, and a small amount of extra damage). You already meet the prereqs for both feats by level 4. If you want to focus more on removing annoying opponents from combat, go for Str-increasing items, so that your Grapple and Trip modifiers will be higher, and Wis-increasing items to increase the save DC for Stunning Fist and your AC at the same time. Take Clever Wrestling and Close-quarters Combat (taking Deft Opportunist is still a good idea if you take this route). However, if you go this way, oozes and such will become very, very annoying. If you want to simply increase your damage output (and it doesn't look like you do), Improved Natural Attack and Power Attack will help a little, though you'd be better off going with the uber magic weapon of doom (including the ki focus ability, of course). Deft opportunist is indeed a good feat. Where should I place the feat? At what level instead of what feat? Or should I take it late in your opinion?
wolfie-kun 07-08-06, 08:15 AM	Deft opportunist is indeed a good feat. Where should I place the feat? At what level instead of what feat? Or should I take it late in your opinion? Rapid Stunning only works so well as your Stunning Fist DC. From that, I'd say that the +4 for AoOs comes in handy long before the Rapid Stunning would really do you any good. Bump Freezing the Lifeblood further up too, for the same reason. For order of feats: 9th level: Deft Opportunist 12th level: Freezing the Lifeblood. 15th and 18th (and you can still do better): Rapid Stunning EDIT: If you reply to this, give a bit of info on what you want the character to do. It will help. :P
(TD)Faber 07-08-06, 12:46 PM	Rapid Stunning only works so well as your Stunning Fist DC. From that, I'd say that the +4 for AoOs comes in handy long before the Rapid Stunning would really do you any good. Bump Freezing the Lifeblood further up too, for the same reason. For order of feats: 9th level: Deft Opportunist 12th level: Freezing the Lifeblood. 15th and 18th (and you can still do better): Rapid Stunning EDIT: If you reply to this, give a bit of info on what you want the character to do. It will help. :P Freezing the lifeblood has as prereq. +10 BaB. At LVL 12 a monk doenst have that. So I put it at 15. I want my monk stunning and trip/grappling based. High DC and high grapple/trip checks.
wolfie-kun 07-08-06, 05:08 PM	Freezing the lifeblood has as prereq. +10 BaB. At LVL 12 a monk doenst have that. So I put it at 15. I want my monk stunning and trip/grappling based. High DC and high grapple/trip checks. >.> *hums innocently* Okay, you want to be grappling-based and you don't take Close-Quarters Fighting? For shame, for shame! :nonono: So adjust what I had in my last post to put CQF at 12th, then Freezing the Lifeblood at 15th. If you find larger creatures a problem by that point, Clever Wrestling should be your feat at 18th.
(TD)Faber 07-10-06, 11:23 AM	>.> *hums innocently* Okay, you want to be grappling-based and you don't take Close-Quarters Fighting? For shame, for shame! :nonono: So adjust what I had in my last post to put CQF at 12th, then Freezing the Lifeblood at 15th. If you find larger creatures a problem by that point, Clever Wrestling should be your feat at 18th. Hmm, to be honest, I don't think CQF is all that interesting. I'm supposed to grapple people. If I'm grappled by a collossal creature or whatever, clever wrstling isnt really gonna help either i think. + both feats are for defensive purposes, I want to go offensive as much a possible
Ryu Katsuragi 07-10-06, 11:41 AM	Hmm, to be honest, I don't think CQF is all that interesting. I'm supposed to grapple people. If I'm grappled by a collossal creature or whatever, clever wrstling isnt really gonna help either i think. + both feats are for defensive purposes, I want to go offensive as much a possible And getting an AoO on people who usually can grapple you for free isn't offensive? Trust me, without that feat, I fail to see how -anyone- (even grapplers in the party) can resist opponents grapples at later levels.
solbergb 07-10-06, 12:26 PM	You can't resist grapples without close quarters fighting at higher levels, although dimension door is there for you. Grapple is a useful weapon in your inventory (which is why powerful build is nice, it helps grapple and trip. anything it does for your flurry based on GM interpretation is gravy). It is not however intended to be the only weapon - you can't use it on the big and strong monsters that advance their grapple checks by 3-8 on a single CR increase (4 hit die per CR monsters like animals get +3 to grapple check per CR, any creature that advances a size category gets +8 to its grapple check for a 1 CR bump. You get the idea - eventually it scales out of your reach, but close quarters combat is a big equalizer. I got it at level 9 and it comes up only once every dozen fights or so, but when it comes up it translates into a wasted action by the grapplemonster and it means it eats my flurry counterattack with no hampering (or if I am mauled, I can escape without burning a dim door)) I think though given his restrictions, he should stay away from +LA races and just go with more monk levels and one of the decent PHB races for monk. Feats like close quarters combat and hold the line also tend to translate into more attacks which makes them a mix of both offense and defense feats. Maybe not your first choice, but something to consider when your main attack suite is nailed down. One reason my "wisdom dumped" monk was successful and is successful even with very low armor class is that I used combat reflexes and hold the line to limit incoming damage, especially in the surprise round (a tripped opponent out of reach doesn't get to maul me in the surprise round, a grappled opponent in reach doesn't get to use his big weapon that he was power attacking with). "Helper" feats to make combat reflexes fire more often translate into a damaged opponent, usually in full attack range, often at a disadvantage. That may mean they die next round, intead of just getting mauled by your full attack. Something like improved natural attack helps on every punch. Some feats though build on others - hold the line and CQC build on your bonus combat reflexes feat, in the same way rapid stunning or freeze the lifeblood build on your stunning fist feat and trip can build on grapple (if your DM buys the FAQ entry that says a prone opponent is at -4 to his grapple check). You want feats to be useful on their own, but some feats multiply in combination and you have to look out for those, and rate them a bit higher. Frankly though, my monk took close quarters combat because he relies heavily on being able to extract himself from a slugfest when he's in over his head, and if grappled by a superior grapplemonster - he can't do that...he's forced to try to kill it before he gets killed. I play that game too, but I prefer it only on my terms.