A New Bard [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

A New Bard [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Chaos_Kitten
11-30-03, 08:29 AM There is going to be a campaign that I am starting soon. In it we all start at level twenty and the dm has given me the approval to play a half nymph. (I just love playing monster characters and this is one without having to take a 12 or 13 level hit.) We have 760,000 gold to start with in this thing.

Anyway I want to try my hands at a bard character. Father is a human so I still get the extra feat and skill points. I think it's going to be great fun.

Now after all my rambling I want to get to the point. I've never played a bard before, but always thought it was an interesting class. I also know that I want to take leadership or wild cohort as a feat. I am also taking harem trained; its's a boost to certain skills but mostly it's for character flavor. My character is going to be an agent for the church of Sharess. Getting back information to them that will be useful to help protect them from their enemies.

What other feats and skills would you recommend to make this character the best it can possibly be? I want my first bard to make a difference in the party.

Thanks in advance.
Chaos_Kitten
11-30-03, 08:40 AM I forgot to add that her intelligence would be 24; this is including a +4 tome. No headband of intellect or any other enhancement bonus in the mix; so it all does count toward skill points.
Boondoggle
11-30-03, 10:32 PM What does the 1/2 nymph give you?

You should also check out the fairly recent uber bard thread. There's tons of information there.
Chaos_Kitten
12-01-03, 12:25 AM The half nymph template gives you everything the base creature has; in addition to +4 charisma, +2 dexterity, +2 wisdom, and +2 intelligence. They have the supernatural ability Awespme Beuaty. It's basically a gaze attack and low light vision.

The campaign is a 48 point buy and will of course lead into epic levels.
balefire42
12-01-03, 03:00 AM what is the level adjustment on the half nymph?

for your base stats, I'd do something like this

Str: 16
Dex: 18 (16+2 nymph)
Con: 16
Int: 16 (14+2 nymph)
Wis: 12 (10+2 nymph)
Cha: 20 (16+4 nymph)

before anyone can do much more than give stats and suggest a few items, they're going to have to know what the level adjustment of the half-nymph is.
Boondoggle
12-01-03, 07:26 AM I'd pick:

Str: 14
Dex: 16 (14+2)
Con: 16
Int: 18 (16+2)
Wis: 16 (14+2)
Cha: 20 (16+4)

Put your level advances into charisma, get cha, dex & con boosting items.

Straight bard isn't a bad build, but be sure you will use everything: skills, bardic knowledge, music, spells & archery. If you want to focus on two or three out of the five, then look for PrCs.

Your DM might allow some PrCs from Dragon 311, but talk to him/her first as some of them are blatantly overpowered.
Chaos_Kitten
12-01-03, 09:09 AM Originally posted by balefire42
what is the level adjustment on the half nymph?

The level adjustment for a half nymph is 2 plus that of the base creature. Which in the case of a human is 0. Neither does the template have any racial hit die.
nikademus
12-01-03, 09:19 AM Human half fey template

Str 14 (6)
Int 14 (6) +2
Wis 14 (6) +2
Con 16 (10)-2
Dex 16 (10)+2
Cha 16 (10)+4

Str 14 / Int 16 / Wis 16 / Dex 18 / Con 16 / Cha 24 (4 times level increase)

Progression

you have 18 levels, which you could go with Bard 16 / Contemplative 2.
This would give you Mysticism Domain and divine grace.

Another way would be to go Sorcerer. With 18 Levels you would be a very good
spellcaster.

There is the Shadow Adept which fits nicely to a follower of Shar.

Sorcerer 8 / Shadow Adept 10 could be an interresting character.

Nikademus
CaoSlayer
12-01-03, 09:20 AM Take a look to the prc Heart´s warder of the manual of gods of Faerun, this prc matchs perfectly with your character, you will end with a +5 bonus to cha (dont stacks with the tomes, but then you can spend the money in something else).

What kind of bard are you planning? if you arent planning to melee, then try to have str as the lowest stat, you will be too busy singing or casting.
Stoned Golem
12-01-03, 11:45 AM If you don't take Heartwarder (which you probably won't as a follower of Sharess), that +4 tome would probably be better applied to Cha unless you really like your skillpoints. Even then, so many of the bard's best skills are Cha-based you'd probably be better off boosting your Cha anyway.
Chaos_Kitten
12-01-03, 02:12 PM Originally posted by CaoSlayer

What kind of bard are you planning? if you arent planning to melee, then try to have str as the lowest stat, you will be too busy singing or casting. [/B]

My bard is going to deal with any fighting she has to do with a shortbow; a rapier if they get too close to shoot at. She uses her obvious charms to get information to help her church and her goddess. I see her as a worshipper of Sharess and so she couldn't be a Heartwarder.
Chaos_Kitten
12-01-03, 02:14 PM Originally posted by Stoned Golem
If you don't take Heartwarder (which you probably won't as a follower of Sharess), that +4 tome would probably be better applied to Cha unless you really like your skillpoints. Even then, so many of the bard's best skills are Cha-based you'd probably be better off boosting your Cha anyway.

I think I am going with shelling out for a +4 tome of intelligence and one of charisma. I see her as very beautiful and vibrant and talented, but most people won't think she's all that intelligent. Just another pretty face in a crowd of pretty faces. So she'll play the ditz when really she has an incredibly keen mind.
catharz
12-01-03, 02:38 PM Well, you have access to Half-nymph, so apparently you have access to (and willingness to use) Dragon magazine.
Ok, so you don't have any racial HD with this character, so your Awesome beauty won't be all that awesome at high levels.
A PrC I would reccomend to any Bard that isn't entirely focused on being a manipulative bastard is the Heartfire fanner (Dragon 314). It really is the ultimate party aid PrC.
The Green whisperer or Worldspeaker PrCs would probably tie in very well with your Nymphy-ness (Dragon 311).

However, all of the PrCs I've reccomended are 5-level, and so don't add to epic advancement. I'm not aware of any good Bard-oriented PrCs with epic advancement (what an oversight), and so if you plan on playing over level 24, you should definately come up with some way to advance a class epically. The three ways I would reccomend doing this are:
1) Bard 6/PrC 5/PrC 5/PrC 5/Epic PrC to infinity and beyond! Something like Bard 6/Green whisperer 5/Heartfire fanner 5/Worldspeaker 5/I have no idea what epic PrC :(. If all of those PrCs seems eccessive, look at what abilities they actually give you. If they still seem a bit much, drop one or two for Bard levels (or maybe one of Druid).
2) Bard 4/Druid 1/Green whisperer 5/Geomancer 10 (advance Bard spellcasting). This will give you those bonus epic feats (I think there is an epic Geomancer, I could be wrong) while keeping with a woodsy flavor. Unfortunately, you loose a lot of Bardic music, Lore, ect. It might also be a bit to outlandish with the Drifts.
3) Bard. Just straight Bard: A little weaker at lower levels, but much less of a hassle.

As other have said, look at the 3.5 Bard thread, it is an amazing resource.
CaoSlayer
12-02-03, 05:06 AM Originally posted by Chaos_Kitten
My bard is going to deal with any fighting she has to do with a shortbow; a rapier if they get too close to shoot at. She uses her obvious charms to get information to help her church and her goddess. I see her as a worshipper of Sharess and so she couldn't be a Heartwarder.

then althrough seems a nosense, get charisma to one of the lowest stats, you really only need 16 cha (including items) for getting access to all spells, charisma it is needed for having a decent spell DC and the best for a combat oriented bards it is to have only buffers that dont require a save, you really need more dex and con for being a good warrior, (the only one real benefit of charisma will be extra spells).

still, you can take a look to the holy liberator Prc (DotF) with two levels you will get your charisma added to saving throws and/or the duelist for getting all that int to armor.
Boondoggle
12-02-03, 07:09 AM Cao, the character is primarily a caster. That was stated in the first post. I believe what she meant was when she couldn't or didn't want to use spells, she would use a bow.

I still disagree with your notion that she shouln't focus on charisma. Her skills will still be greatly benefited, not to mention her music and it never hurts to have more spells per day for a bard.
CaoSlayer
12-03-03, 04:15 AM (double posting)

:mad: :mad: :mad:
CaoSlayer
12-03-03, 04:19 AM (Note: I have to learn to read english yet :eek: )

umm, actually with the highest charisma scores, will get only low level spells, let´s say that with a charisma 24 will get just one level 2 spell while by example a sorcerer will get also an extra level 7 spell.

About skills you are right that it is good, but at those levels having about 17 ranks in diplomacy and/or bluff it is nearly imposible to fail a check (unless you want to bluff someone into that you are really a lamassu polymorphed into an halfling).

Of course you will get always nice things for raising a stat, if she try to raise the con stat, will get more hp for resisting blows (an balancing the ECL +2), improve the weak fort save [at those levels one failed check and you are dead] and the concentration skill.
MoogleEmpMog
12-03-03, 07:45 PM I don't know the Church of Sharess, but, if you have acess the Rokugan book from AEG, I would seriously recommend looking into the Courtier class.

In many ways, it's a non-casting bard, and gets practically everything that you're looking for with this character. Several of the PrCs in that book also involve charismatic performing characters (certain specializations of Artisan, the Butei, and, for the Leadership inclined, the lovely, lovely Mastermind).

Courtier's probably not quite as min/maxable as a Bard, but it's a huge amount of fun to play with its special abilities. She would get 8 sp/level, and gets a feat/class feature at 5th and 10th level that allows her to add two cross-class skills to her skill list. Not that there are many skills NOT on the Courtier's list.

Among her abilities are a +3 bonus to Leadership (at ECL 11), the ability to take 20 on Sense Motive checks as a free action (at ECL 14), bardic knowledge that uses the Gather Information skill (at ECL 5), a +4 bonus to all social Charisma-based checks (at ECL 3) and several bonus feats through her career. Plus, she starts of rich.

And at ECL 20, a Half-Nymph Courtier all but forces every intelligent opponent she faces into the Vow of Peace where she's concerned, whenever she doesn't have a visible weapon.
Immovable Hand of Peace class feature + toweringly high Charisma = not much damage from Int 3 or higher enemies.:D

That last is very nice for Epic levels, when almost all the enemies are intelligent and able to kill a weak little thing like a Half-Nymph Courtier (or Bard, for that matter) with a veritable flick of their wrists.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chaos_Kitten 11-30-03, 08:29 AM	There is going to be a campaign that I am starting soon. In it we all start at level twenty and the dm has given me the approval to play a half nymph. (I just love playing monster characters and this is one without having to take a 12 or 13 level hit.) We have 760,000 gold to start with in this thing. Anyway I want to try my hands at a bard character. Father is a human so I still get the extra feat and skill points. I think it's going to be great fun. Now after all my rambling I want to get to the point. I've never played a bard before, but always thought it was an interesting class. I also know that I want to take leadership or wild cohort as a feat. I am also taking harem trained; its's a boost to certain skills but mostly it's for character flavor. My character is going to be an agent for the church of Sharess. Getting back information to them that will be useful to help protect them from their enemies. What other feats and skills would you recommend to make this character the best it can possibly be? I want my first bard to make a difference in the party. Thanks in advance.
Chaos_Kitten 11-30-03, 08:40 AM	I forgot to add that her intelligence would be 24; this is including a +4 tome. No headband of intellect or any other enhancement bonus in the mix; so it all does count toward skill points.
Boondoggle 11-30-03, 10:32 PM	What does the 1/2 nymph give you? You should also check out the fairly recent uber bard thread. There's tons of information there.
Chaos_Kitten 12-01-03, 12:25 AM	The half nymph template gives you everything the base creature has; in addition to +4 charisma, +2 dexterity, +2 wisdom, and +2 intelligence. They have the supernatural ability Awespme Beuaty. It's basically a gaze attack and low light vision. The campaign is a 48 point buy and will of course lead into epic levels.
balefire42 12-01-03, 03:00 AM	what is the level adjustment on the half nymph? for your base stats, I'd do something like this Str: 16 Dex: 18 (16+2 nymph) Con: 16 Int: 16 (14+2 nymph) Wis: 12 (10+2 nymph) Cha: 20 (16+4 nymph) before anyone can do much more than give stats and suggest a few items, they're going to have to know what the level adjustment of the half-nymph is.
Boondoggle 12-01-03, 07:26 AM	I'd pick: Str: 14 Dex: 16 (14+2) Con: 16 Int: 18 (16+2) Wis: 16 (14+2) Cha: 20 (16+4) Put your level advances into charisma, get cha, dex & con boosting items. Straight bard isn't a bad build, but be sure you will use everything: skills, bardic knowledge, music, spells & archery. If you want to focus on two or three out of the five, then look for PrCs. Your DM might allow some PrCs from Dragon 311, but talk to him/her first as some of them are blatantly overpowered.
Chaos_Kitten 12-01-03, 09:09 AM	Originally posted by balefire42 what is the level adjustment on the half nymph? The level adjustment for a half nymph is 2 plus that of the base creature. Which in the case of a human is 0. Neither does the template have any racial hit die.
nikademus 12-01-03, 09:19 AM	Human half fey template Str 14 (6) Int 14 (6) +2 Wis 14 (6) +2 Con 16 (10)-2 Dex 16 (10)+2 Cha 16 (10)+4 Str 14 / Int 16 / Wis 16 / Dex 18 / Con 16 / Cha 24 (4 times level increase) Progression you have 18 levels, which you could go with Bard 16 / Contemplative 2. This would give you Mysticism Domain and divine grace. Another way would be to go Sorcerer. With 18 Levels you would be a very good spellcaster. There is the Shadow Adept which fits nicely to a follower of Shar. Sorcerer 8 / Shadow Adept 10 could be an interresting character. Nikademus
CaoSlayer 12-01-03, 09:20 AM	Take a look to the prc Heart´s warder of the manual of gods of Faerun, this prc matchs perfectly with your character, you will end with a +5 bonus to cha (dont stacks with the tomes, but then you can spend the money in something else). What kind of bard are you planning? if you arent planning to melee, then try to have str as the lowest stat, you will be too busy singing or casting.
Stoned Golem 12-01-03, 11:45 AM	If you don't take Heartwarder (which you probably won't as a follower of Sharess), that +4 tome would probably be better applied to Cha unless you really like your skillpoints. Even then, so many of the bard's best skills are Cha-based you'd probably be better off boosting your Cha anyway.
Chaos_Kitten 12-01-03, 02:12 PM	Originally posted by CaoSlayer What kind of bard are you planning? if you arent planning to melee, then try to have str as the lowest stat, you will be too busy singing or casting. [/B] My bard is going to deal with any fighting she has to do with a shortbow; a rapier if they get too close to shoot at. She uses her obvious charms to get information to help her church and her goddess. I see her as a worshipper of Sharess and so she couldn't be a Heartwarder.
Chaos_Kitten 12-01-03, 02:14 PM	Originally posted by Stoned Golem If you don't take Heartwarder (which you probably won't as a follower of Sharess), that +4 tome would probably be better applied to Cha unless you really like your skillpoints. Even then, so many of the bard's best skills are Cha-based you'd probably be better off boosting your Cha anyway. I think I am going with shelling out for a +4 tome of intelligence and one of charisma. I see her as very beautiful and vibrant and talented, but most people won't think she's all that intelligent. Just another pretty face in a crowd of pretty faces. So she'll play the ditz when really she has an incredibly keen mind.
catharz 12-01-03, 02:38 PM	Well, you have access to Half-nymph, so apparently you have access to (and willingness to use) Dragon magazine. Ok, so you don't have any racial HD with this character, so your Awesome beauty won't be all that awesome at high levels. A PrC I would reccomend to any Bard that isn't entirely focused on being a manipulative bastard is the Heartfire fanner (Dragon 314). It really is the ultimate party aid PrC. The Green whisperer or Worldspeaker PrCs would probably tie in very well with your Nymphy-ness (Dragon 311). However, all of the PrCs I've reccomended are 5-level, and so don't add to epic advancement. I'm not aware of any good Bard-oriented PrCs with epic advancement (what an oversight), and so if you plan on playing over level 24, you should definately come up with some way to advance a class epically. The three ways I would reccomend doing this are: 1) Bard 6/PrC 5/PrC 5/PrC 5/Epic PrC to infinity and beyond! Something like Bard 6/Green whisperer 5/Heartfire fanner 5/Worldspeaker 5/I have no idea what epic PrC :(. If all of those PrCs seems eccessive, look at what abilities they actually give you. If they still seem a bit much, drop one or two for Bard levels (or maybe one of Druid). 2) Bard 4/Druid 1/Green whisperer 5/Geomancer 10 (advance Bard spellcasting). This will give you those bonus epic feats (I think there is an epic Geomancer, I could be wrong) while keeping with a woodsy flavor. Unfortunately, you loose a lot of Bardic music, Lore, ect. It might also be a bit to outlandish with the Drifts. 3) Bard. Just straight Bard: A little weaker at lower levels, but much less of a hassle. As other have said, look at the 3.5 Bard thread, it is an amazing resource.
CaoSlayer 12-02-03, 05:06 AM	Originally posted by Chaos_Kitten My bard is going to deal with any fighting she has to do with a shortbow; a rapier if they get too close to shoot at. She uses her obvious charms to get information to help her church and her goddess. I see her as a worshipper of Sharess and so she couldn't be a Heartwarder. then althrough seems a nosense, get charisma to one of the lowest stats, you really only need 16 cha (including items) for getting access to all spells, charisma it is needed for having a decent spell DC and the best for a combat oriented bards it is to have only buffers that dont require a save, you really need more dex and con for being a good warrior, (the only one real benefit of charisma will be extra spells). still, you can take a look to the holy liberator Prc (DotF) with two levels you will get your charisma added to saving throws and/or the duelist for getting all that int to armor.
Boondoggle 12-02-03, 07:09 AM	Cao, the character is primarily a caster. That was stated in the first post. I believe what she meant was when she couldn't or didn't want to use spells, she would use a bow. I still disagree with your notion that she shouln't focus on charisma. Her skills will still be greatly benefited, not to mention her music and it never hurts to have more spells per day for a bard.
CaoSlayer 12-03-03, 04:15 AM	(double posting) :mad: :mad: :mad:
CaoSlayer 12-03-03, 04:19 AM	(Note: I have to learn to read english yet :eek: ) umm, actually with the highest charisma scores, will get only low level spells, let´s say that with a charisma 24 will get just one level 2 spell while by example a sorcerer will get also an extra level 7 spell. About skills you are right that it is good, but at those levels having about 17 ranks in diplomacy and/or bluff it is nearly imposible to fail a check (unless you want to bluff someone into that you are really a lamassu polymorphed into an halfling). Of course you will get always nice things for raising a stat, if she try to raise the con stat, will get more hp for resisting blows (an balancing the ECL +2), improve the weak fort save [at those levels one failed check and you are dead] and the concentration skill.
MoogleEmpMog 12-03-03, 07:45 PM	I don't know the Church of Sharess, but, if you have acess the Rokugan book from AEG, I would seriously recommend looking into the Courtier class. In many ways, it's a non-casting bard, and gets practically everything that you're looking for with this character. Several of the PrCs in that book also involve charismatic performing characters (certain specializations of Artisan, the Butei, and, for the Leadership inclined, the lovely, lovely Mastermind). Courtier's probably not quite as min/maxable as a Bard, but it's a huge amount of fun to play with its special abilities. She would get 8 sp/level, and gets a feat/class feature at 5th and 10th level that allows her to add two cross-class skills to her skill list. Not that there are many skills NOT on the Courtier's list. Among her abilities are a +3 bonus to Leadership (at ECL 11), the ability to take 20 on Sense Motive checks as a free action (at ECL 14), bardic knowledge that uses the Gather Information skill (at ECL 5), a +4 bonus to all social Charisma-based checks (at ECL 3) and several bonus feats through her career. Plus, she starts of rich. And at ECL 20, a Half-Nymph Courtier all but forces every intelligent opponent she faces into the Vow of Peace where she's concerned, whenever she doesn't have a visible weapon. Immovable Hand of Peace class feature + toweringly high Charisma = not much damage from Int 3 or higher enemies.:D That last is very nice for Epic levels, when almost all the enemies are intelligent and able to kill a weak little thing like a Half-Nymph Courtier (or Bard, for that matter) with a veritable flick of their wrists.