Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kamikaze Chicken 10-16-06, 10:29 AM	I was considering playing a halfling beguiler/luckstealer the other day when i happened across a spell in PHB2 that i had not previously noticed. It is a 6th level spell called overwhelm, and it has a very simple effect. The target of this spell is dealt non-lethal damage equal to its current hit points. A will save negates. Not too bad for a spell, i mean one more hit and they go unconciuous. but then a small tingling in the back of my mind begged for me to open my copy of races of stone. And when i did this spell became so much more useful. Keep in mind that when your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit point total you fall unconcious. The feat Spell razor, allows you to cast a touch spell, attack with the touch spell, and follow that up with an offhand attack from your gnome quickrazor. Over whelm is a touch spell. Is the combo becoing clear? Playing as a beguiler alone, you could use cloaked casting to get the drop on the oponent and up the will save dc for this spell, throw in some luck stealer and you can lower their save even more and buff your own two attacks to make this combo viable. The combo plays out as thus. Feint in combat one round[ or just e invisible, this works better because you wont incur Aoos] then on the next round utilize the spell razor feat to "Overwhelm" your oponent. then imeadiatly after slash em with your quickrazor. Assuming your lucky enough [or stealthy enough] this will drop any oponent affected by nonlethal damage to unconcious for one full round action. The feats requirements for quick razor are a bit of a pain, but any caster with access to this 6th level spell could become the tank killer. beguiler/luckstealer seems to be the best bet to me though. Any thoughts or further optimizations on this? I know it is a mid-late game combo but i think it is pretty nice. KAMIKAZE! :chicken:
Tweedledope 10-16-06, 10:32 AM	This just made the Killer Gnome over again. What school of spell is this?
Prominence 10-16-06, 10:33 AM	The only problem is there are plenty of Save or Bad will save spells already, most don't require touch either. In general, good touch spells don't require saves. You're ruining your position for a will save touch attack.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 10-16-06, 12:38 PM	I think this has fairly obvious applications for a spell sword... or duskblade.
Hanniball 10-16-06, 01:22 PM	What school of spell is this? Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] ...or duskblade. Unfortunately, Arcane Channeling deals weapon damage first, then the spell takes effect. If you go for Arcane Channeling (full attack), I can't think of a way to get a Beguiler, Sor/Wiz 6 spell in the same build. Any ideas on how to circumvent these limitations? beguiler/luckstealer seems to be the best bet to me though. Honestly, I'd stick with Wizard for access to it sooner and the ability to Quicken a Magic Missle if you're quickrazor attack misses.
Tweedledope 10-16-06, 02:38 PM	Man, too bad it's an Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] that just adds to the list of immune creatures. -=TD=
NeoRealist 10-23-06, 12:02 AM	Don't know about quickrazors, but if you can fit (or just use instead) some straight up sorceror in there you can do the same thing if you are dragonblooded: there is a feat (from races of the dragon) which grants you a claw attack and allows for a swift action swipe as part of a standard action spell. (less feat intensive than the quickrazor if you play one of the dragon touched races from dragon magic, abet only by one feat as you can avoid the exotic weapon proficency(quickrazor)) Upon further thought, you can deliver a touch spells as part of a natural attack routine, so maybe casting true strike and then next turn overwhelm them with a single claw to the head? Would more or less insure the hit. Still need to work on the save though. But as some of the other posters have mentioned, there are other 'save or die' spells which don't leave you as open to a full attack to the face should your gambit fail. Still it's pretty classy and impressive to simply drop someone unconcious in one round regardless of how many hitpoints they have. I think you are on the right track with thinking of ways to lower temporarily someones will save to preface your combo.
ShneekeyTheLost 10-23-06, 01:04 AM	Not only are there a whole slew of critters immune or so resistant as to be immune to mental stuff, but there's a whole bunch of stuff that is simply immune to subdual damage (constructs and undead spring to mind). Sure, it's not bad, but there's limitations to it.
NeoRealist 10-23-06, 01:11 AM	Both of your second examples are likely immune to the mental stuff too, but then that restriction applies to all will save type spells. That is why they invented disintegrate. ;)
fnord 10-23-06, 04:19 AM	At the same level as Disintegrate, and one level above Magic Jar and Hold Monster, I can't say this really being that great.
FiestFan 10-23-06, 08:36 AM	Uber-great? No, probably not. One more thing to put in the Wiz/Sorc's bag of goodies to antagonize a DM who thinks he knows all your tricks? Yup. I like this with the Luckstealer/Fatespinner, since you can penalize their Saves so easily, and even force re-rolls of made Saves. Not a one-size-fits-all win, but a nifty combo.
FruitOfTheShroom 10-23-06, 08:42 AM	At the same level as Disintegrate, and one level above Magic Jar and Hold Monster, I can't say this really being that great. Mmm... but this leaves them available for interrogation, and is especially good for "capturing" someone. Actually, when I think about it, putting an enemy into an adequately designed prison is SAFER than outright killing them. Ressurecting someone is probably easier than trying to rescue them from a prison. Just a thought.