Post/Author/DateTime	Post
thegraveyard 12-07-05, 08:52 AM	Yes, thats right... A new material plane. I asked my DM to give me an impossible task to do with a level 20 character, so he told me to make a new material plane and place everyone from the material plane to the new one, so I took the challenge, here are the rules or guidelines that he gave me: Books Allowed: Almost any WotC Book (not magazine) that is currently using the 3.5 rule system, and the official updates and corrections (errata and SRD). No Unearthed Arcana Starting money: 760,000gp (can't get more) XP allowed to character: 190,000 (can't get more; unless by other means such as articifer using his abilities and craft reserve) Houserules: No house rules Characters: No templates of any kind, 32 point buy, no leadership feat Other: NO deity intervention, so if your character becomes a deity, he is no longer elgible, assume that the FR deities will allow this. This is for the FR setting. if it can be done, then he will allow this to be done in the campaign. I have an okay time creating the demiplane, but that is because I am using a psion (shaper), with Elan as the race because of no maximum age. I've used 90,000xp on 90 manifestations of genesis, then waited 2,000,000,000,000,000 years to get the plane to be 142,857,142,857,142 miles radius... and growing 90 feet a week. I was wondering if twin power would use up double xp, since I wasn't sure, I didn't use it. I've gotten my plane started, I just need to know a way to get the occupants from one plane to the other enmasse. all suggestions, critiques, critics, and hints are welcome, so are other ideas.
Balthanon 12-07-05, 12:44 PM	There are a few problems with this--the Material Plane is infinite if I recall correctly. While your plane is large, it isn't infinite, which will make it difficult to fit a (presumably) infinite amount of people, planets, and other materials inside it. Also, the genesis spell description makes no note of additional castings of genesis increasing the rate at which the plane grows, so you are only growing at 50 foot per year. An additional casting merely adds 180 feet to the size of the demi-plane. In addition to that, you couldn't spend 90,000 XP on genesis if you wanted to, as that would take you below 17th level at which point you wouldn't be able to cast the spell. If you are required to essentially duplicate the current Material Plane, then you have the issue of transferring ore and other exotic materials as well, as you can't create these using genesis.
Patashu 12-07-05, 02:57 PM	There are a few problems with this--the Material Plane is infinite if I recall correctly. While your plane is large, it isn't infinite, which will make it difficult to fit a (presumably) infinite amount of people, planets, and other materials inside it. Also, the genesis spell description makes no note of additional castings of genesis increasing the rate at which the plane grows, so you are only growing at 50 foot per year. An additional casting merely adds 180 feet to the size of the demi-plane. In addition to that, you couldn't spend 90,000 XP on genesis if you wanted to, as that would take you below 17th level at which point you wouldn't be able to cast the spell. If you are required to essentially duplicate the current Material Plane, then you have the issue of transferring ore and other exotic materials as well, as you can't create these using genesis. Perhaps he was killing things or otherwise gaining exp during the 2 quadrillion year wait?
Lokiyn 12-07-05, 03:04 PM	Inefficient. Here is what you need Shadow walk, or plane shift And time to search the shadow plane. theoretically its possible to find a material plane that has never had a creature rise above int 2 and achieve sentience. just make sure you get there first and establish a worshiper base for yourself to propell you to godhood. Then simply set up portals and limit access to people who either worship you or worship gods that are weaker than you. And again, and again and again. you cannot spend exp to drop you a level. If you are level 20 and have gained 1 exp since then you have 1 exp to spend not 190,0000. If you hit level 20 and decide not to level you have 19,000 exp to spend not 190,000.
PhaedrusXY 12-07-05, 03:27 PM	Use the psionic version of Genesis to create a pocket plane with the flowing time trait (1 second outside = 100 years inside, or something like that). Populate it with a few members of a race that is allied with you. They will age incredibly fast, and reproduce at an exponential rate. Make sure some of them become high level psions, and let them remanifest Genesis themselves repeatedly to increase the size of the pocket plane. In just a short amount of time (using the time frame of the outside world), the plane will grow to enormous proportions, and be populated by large numbers of whatever race you seeded it with. This race will also have evolved for millions of years during this time. Using this method, I estimated that it would only take something like 3 years to create a plane with greater than the surface area of the Earth. Also, since the population inside increases exponentially, that is just the beginning, really. It's been a while, and I am going from memory, so this number might be way off. A friend of mine wanted to do this with his wizard in a game I was running. I was going to let him, but have it go horribly wrong and result in the development of the Ethergaunts from the Fiend Folio. :devil: You could move the population of the Material Plane to this plane using Ring Gates, if you created a set that was bigger than the standard ones (or figured out a way to shrink everyone one at a time long enough for them to slip through them). I don't know how the population of "helpers" already living in your new plane would feel about that, though, or if you could do it in a way so that there would be plenty of room for everyone from the Prime to move there with the existing inhabitants.
Lokiyn 12-07-05, 03:35 PM	Use the psionic version of Genesis to create a pocket plane with the flowing time trait (1 second outside = 100 years inside, or something like that). Populate it with a few members of a race that is allied with you. They will age incredibly fast, and reproduce at an exponential rate. Make sure some of them become high level psions, and let them remanifest Genesis themselves repeatedly to increase the size of the pocket plane. In just a short amount of time (using the time frame of the outside world), the plane will grow to enormous proportions, and be populated by large numbers of whatever race you seeded it with. This race will also have evolved for millions of years during this time. Using this method, I estimated that it would only take something like 3 years to create a plane with greater than the surface area of the Earth. Also, since the population inside increases exponentially, that is just the beginning, really. It's been a while, and I am going from memory, so this number might be way off. A friend of mine wanted to do this with his wizard in a game I was running. I was going to let him, but have it go horribly wrong and result in the development of the Ethergaunts from the Fiend Folio. :devil: 1.) Psionic genesis does not allow you to manipulate time. thats the domain of broken arcane versions. 2.) You cannot have other people enhance your plane. Once your demiplane reaches 180 feet in radius, you can manifest this power again to gradually add another 180 feet of radius to it, and so on.
PhaedrusXY 12-07-05, 03:43 PM	1.) Psionic genesis does not allow you to manipulate time. thats the domain of broken arcane versions. 2.) You cannot have other people enhance your plane.Eh, it has been a while since I looked at this stuff, as I said. 1) The divine version of Genesis in the SRD is worded in a way in which it could be interpreted to allow you to manipulate the Time trait. I remember reading a debate on this, and got it and the Psionic version backwards. 2) I don't know how to get around this part, as I guess I missed that it had to be the original caster recasting the spell. I'll let someone else work out how to do this, as I don't really care much.
Seeker of Truth 12-07-05, 03:46 PM	I'm not sure what abilites are necesary to creat your plane ... but I'm pretty sure if it can be done you could do it with a pun-pun lite build that chooses never to give himself divine ranks.
Lokiyn 12-07-05, 03:48 PM	no harm no foul, people trying to use those rediculus 3.0 versions of genesis are a pet peeve of mine. And the divine version of geneseis has been replaved by the pavilion of grandeur
Skulan 12-07-05, 03:53 PM	I'm kind of surprised nobody's mentioned Dweomerkeeper yet. Does the Complete Divine web enhancement count as an official update? If so, there's your way around the xp part of Genesis. Just play an Elan cleric of some Creation god, and spend eternity making an exact replica of the Prime Material, pausing only to plane shift some inhabitants in every time a new area is finished. -Skulan
Lokiyn 12-07-05, 04:00 PM	I'm kind of surprised nobody's mentioned Dweomerkeeper yet. Does the Complete Divine web enhancement count as an official update? If so, there's your way around the xp part of Genesis. Just play an Elan cleric of some Creation god, and spend eternity making an exact replica of the Prime Material, pausing only to plane shift some inhabitants in every time a new area is finished. -Skulan Creation domain was updated in complete divine. Since its not OGL the Srd wouldn't be updated to match it. ..... Oh Noes! you caught me :P
PonTelon 12-07-05, 05:38 PM	I'm seeing Magic Rune Circles in your future. General Costs(using Command Word price) without XP or material costs: level 0 spells: 225 gold, 1 day, 9 xp level 1 spells:(caster level 1) 450 gold, 1 day, 18 xp level 2 spells:(caster level 3) 2700 gold, 2 days, 108 xp level 3 spells:(caster level 5) 6750 gold, 6 days, 270 xp level 4 spells:(caster level 7) 12,600 gold, 12 days, 504 xp level 5 spells:(caster level 9) 20,250 gold, 20 days, 810 xp level 6 spells:(caster level 11) 29,700 gold, 27 days, 1188 xp level 7 spells:(caster level 13) 40,950 gold, 40 days, 1638 xp level 8 spells: (caster level 15) 54,000 gold, 54 days, 2160 xp level 9 spells: (caster level 17) 68,850 gold, 68 days, 2754 xp. What level is Genesis and how much XP? If not a circle of that then at least do a plane shift circle of unlimited uses.
thegraveyard 12-07-05, 06:13 PM	For some of you who don't know, I am using this version of genesis: Psionic Gensesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/genesis.htm) Here is the Divine version: Divine Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/spells/genesis.htm) It seems arcane casters do not get genesis, unless it is epic, I only say this is because of where I found it: Arcane Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm) Balthanon - You may be correct that I my psion (shaper) will drop a level or two when using xp, but I also asked this about item creation, and a response I was given was that you can't drop a level by doing that, so I told my DM about it, and thereby we both thought it would carry over for spells or powers that create things such as conjuration or metacreativity. I would also note that I am using a psion, not a wizard or cleric, hence that is why my genesis manifestations do stack in increasing the size. As for the exotic materials, they could be brought in later, or in so many years might even occur naturally. Patashu - No, sadly he was not, he was sleeping or doing something to pass the time since he can't die of old age. And if he could, he would be doing just that, killing things to pass the time while not inherently getting himself killed in the process, my DM said that I had 190,000xp to work with and that is total, and anything gained would add to that and take him over the cap. Lokiyn - I do agree that this method is insufficient, but so is looking through the plane of shadows unless one were to create the Omnicificer for the sole purpose of finding his way through the plane of shadows to find that other material plane that might be hidden away, but I do believe that any book that talks about planes says there is only one material plane, if they do not say that, then their could infact be one hidden in the infinite layers of the abyss. PhaedrusXY - Lokiyn says it best 1.) Psionic genesis does not allow you to manipulate time. thats the domain of broken arcane versions. 2.) You cannot have other people enhance your plane. But many also over looked, not saying anynames, the fact that I am using the psionic version which continues to grow past 180ft radius. Seeker of Truth - I could in fact do that, make a pun-pun lite, and find another way to create the plane, but the build I posted was a base for me and for anyone who wishes to help, to create a new plane to replace the material plane and to move all current occupants of the material plane to the new plane by any means necessary, hopefully keeping them alive. Skulan - I asked my DM about the web enhancements, and they are a go if they are official updates to the books printed for the 3.5 rule system. So not to confuse anyone, this means that any book that was originally printed for the 3.0 rule system is not legal, nor are the enhancements that update them to the 3.5 rules system, It's kind of cheap I think since Manual of the Planes might of had something. Pon Telon - your question was adressed at the very top. But to clarify, the level is 9th for either the power or spell, possibly epic for arcane casters. The Psionic version has a 1,000xp cost.
Endarire 12-07-05, 06:33 PM	Use a rod of excellent magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/rods.htm#excellentMagic) to negate the experience cost. -EE
PhaedrusXY 12-07-05, 06:52 PM	Lokiyn - I do agree that this method is insufficient, but so is looking through the plane of shadows unless one were to create the Omnicificer for the sole purpose of finding his way through the plane of shadows to find that other material plane that might be hidden away, but I do believe that any book that talks about planes says there is only one material plane, if they do not say that, then their could infact be one hidden in the infinite layers of the abyss.The Plane of Shadows is specifically said to be the way to travel between alternate Prime Material Planes. I think this was in the description of the Plane of Shadow in the Manual of the Planes, but I can't remember for sure. All of the different campaign settings (Eberron, Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, etc) are alternate Prime Material Planes. I can't remember if it is explicitly said that there are an infinite number of Primes, but I think many people assume this.
thegraveyard 12-07-05, 07:35 PM	Endarire - Can non epic characters use epic items? PhaedrusXY - That might be true, though I do not have the book, sadly, so I cannot know for certain, any help to clear this matter up would be appreciated, but also the challenge is the replacement of the FR material plane. Though, I should quit being repetive in the matter, I would like to think that everyone is offering helpful suggestions.
Balthanon 12-07-05, 08:51 PM	Balthanon - You may be correct that I my psion (shaper) will drop a level or two when using xp, but I also asked this about item creation, and a response I was given was that you can't drop a level by doing that, so I told my DM about it, and thereby we both thought it would carry over for spells or powers that create things such as conjuration or metacreativity. I would also note that I am using a psion, not a wizard or cleric, hence that is why my genesis manifestations do stack in increasing the size. As for the exotic materials, they could be brought in later, or in so many years might even occur naturally. Actually, I assumed that you would cast the spell at either 17th, 18th, or 19th level and never actually hit 20th. The limits that were posted were also guiding me (no killing and going over 190,000 as pointed out). For your version of genesis, that was the one I was looking at--if you read it carefully, all it says is that a second casting adds 180 feet to the spell. Not that it increases the rate at which it grows. And even if it does increase it, that doesn't solve the infinity situation, let alone convincing 30th level characters like the Simbul to come to your new Material. Regarding searching and locating an existing, "unused" Material plane, that doesn't fit the challenge that was presented. Namely, creating a new Material plane. Ignoring the problem of creating the new Material plane for a moment, there is really only one way of conceivably getting every creature in an infinite plane to move to the new one. Namely, you need to destroy the original (preferably slowly) and set yours up as a "safe haven" for refugees. Of course, if your DM expects every creature living there to be living when they're moved over to yours you're probably doomed. The only reason I could see the safe haven idea working is that whatever you manage to rescue, there isn't going to be anything in the current Material when you're done. Truthfully, if you want to actually have a chance of completing this, I would suggest going to your DM and having him define what he means by Material plane as far as traits are concerned. If it deals with anything infinite, I don't think it's possible to do it without a non-epic caster and epic spellcasting. (Actually, thinking about it, dominating/commanding existing epic level characters might be the best way of going about doing all of this--it might be possible to get to the point where they would only make the save on a natural 20 or that you automatically command an epic lich and your DM would allow it. Or then again he might not. And this raises the deity slaying issue on a smaller scale--namely, only a poorly played epic spellcaster of the type you need would likely to be taken doing something like this.)
thegraveyard 12-07-05, 10:40 PM	Balthanon - Ahh, thank you for clearing the issue up then, I was thinking that you meant the spell version, but I was going with accordance with how my DM answered my question if multiple manifestations of the genesis power would stack. The logic behind this was that with each subsequent manifestations of the power, each one would grow out to 180ft radius, but then continue to add their own foot to the plane, so they would stack. I might have skipped over it when I was reading the SRD version of it. I do agree with you about the "unused" material plane, but that would cut down on the time used to "create" a new plane with a level 20 character. For the third part, as long as I can get the creatures from the FR setting to the new plane after creating everything, or nearly everything, but with everything else that can be created, one needs only to bring in the seeds for vegitation with a few keepers in the beginning to keep them in check and balance. For the initial keepers of the new plane I could bring in plant creatures to have them over see most of the developement with a few other creature types along the way to help move earth and stuff, then other over seers of different races to make the new plane feel more like the old, but more primitive. But to destroy the original material plane, that might actually take some effort, but it might be possible with greater metamorphesis or metamorphesis, using an idea from a nova thread to actually cause a super nova that would colapse part of the plane and continue through the entire thing, hopefully causing and anti-big bang effect. Though if this isn't possible, it might be a focus of the challenge as well, though later on after settling on the best way to create and govern the new plane so that it will support life. Technically (I think; imo), infinite is ever expanding in all directions, so genesis does create an infinite plane (psionic version anyways), so after a while it might even surpass the original material plane given enough time, and enough castings of the genesis power. If you know the growth rate of the Material Plane, that would greatly help as well. As for getting the creatures to the new plane, if it comes down to it, force can be required to move them, or they can permanently perish, though that defies the reason of the new plane that will have nearly all, or all creatures from the FR campaign setting moved to the new plane, and possibly other planets once the plane is big enough to support life on a large scale. To move the creatures I was thinking of using golems, hired hands, or other methods since in the initial phase, I haven't spent any gold to create the new plane in the first place. Besided using force, does anyone have any suggestions of other ways to get them to the new plane once it can support large populations? (I will ask my DM about that as well, Balthanon)
Lokiyn 12-07-05, 11:48 PM	Well i have several ideas on destroying the world/plane left over from a successful thread that was lost in the board reorganization (it was at 600+ replies with three Methods to destrory the world as a level 15 character) My current favorite method is a rune circle of use activated timestop. What you do is trigger it is have an object inside it. say, a decanter of endless water.......... But seriously you aren't going find any reasonable way to "create" a new material plane. (trust me i've tried, thats what led to my genesis thread.) The most optimal way is to use the shadowplane's connection to infinite material planes and pretend to create it through an elaborate ritual involving smoke, mirrors, and a portal. (as a bonus claim your a god and its your divine realm, ro divinity in the new world, although as a side note be sure to include soma in any new world.) *edit* And technically the genesis spell results in a demiplane which is most definitly not defineable as a material plane.
BarbeChenue 12-08-05, 01:32 AM	Is there a way to fuse planes together, or at least link them permanently? I could easily see someone making several planes (let's say 10, for a nice round number) and waiting ten thousand years (and 180 days). After that time, there would be 10 planes each covering a 500180 feet radius. I would not spit on a total (accross all planes) of 49 366 018.171008 square feet. That may not be enough for some people, but if you can cast more than just 10 Genesis (they only cost 1000 XP each), and buy power stones of genesis (so you don't pay for XP and instead invest your gold funds), then you may have a lot of new space, just make sure you keep track of them! :D Also, don't forget that it's an almost exponential process. As you gain more planes and gather enough loyal supporters to help you prepare them for the emergence of life, you can afford to make more of them, faster! If you want infinite cash, just sell wood. Make a plane of wet dirt and start planting stuff in there. After, let's say 100 years, you will have a solid platform to grow trees on. With a warm atmosphere and some dedicated helpers you will make a fortune out of the thousands of acres of trees you will grow (why not be a Thrallherd? unless it counts as leadership). The funny part is that if you have the right woodchopping schedule, you may only have to open gates at set times: everytime the forest is ripe for harvest! I'm sure elves would hate you for this, but tell them you were there before and that without you, people would chop *their* trees. Don't forget that with all that money you will be able to summon *more* planes! World evacuation into Forestworld or Sylva (your own forested planar campaign setting) is made that much more accessible. ;)
Endarire 12-08-05, 12:06 PM	By the RAW, anyone may use a rod of excellent magic. -EE
Patashu 12-08-05, 03:22 PM	By the way, if you're only concerned with the new plane's surface area and not the shape, you could try something like this: 1) Fill the plane's outside surface with an inside-out layer of soil and grass and whatnot. 2) Several dozen feet closer to the plane's center, create a hollow sphere of soil. Connect it to the previous layer and connect the inside and outside with staircases and holes as appropriate. 3) Create another shell within the first sphere, once again connected. 4) Repeat until you hit the center. Cast/manifest genesis again, fit in another shell, etc etc...
thegraveyard 12-10-05, 03:42 PM	Lokyin - thank you for the idea of how to destroy (or submerse) a plane, and the insight of the improbible way of creating a new "material plane". As for the shadowplane idea, I'll see what my DM says about it. As for the Demi plane, yes, that is in the description or else it would be quite more powerful, giving mortals the power to create their own plane like the deities. BarbeChenue - I am not sure if there is a way to fuse planes together, Gate spells can link planes together, but I don't think this was the response you wanted. Endarire - Thank you, I will let my DM know this, and now my psion can start creating and expanding his demi-plane without loss of XP. Patashu - hmm, I'm not quite following your idea, perhaps you would like to clarify it more before I start jumping to conclusions about it? destroying the material plane idea, if this is possible, go back before the "big bang" (if this is the way it was created), then simply have a contigent time stop or temporal acceleration ready and with a bag of holding. put the begining of the plane (universe) inside the bag of holding then start your own plane perhaps? if not, continue with the idea until you have all starting points of the universe inside the bag of holding? if the bag of holding doesn't put things in stasis, what item can, and then would this idea be possible if it was all down before the first "big bang" went off inside a time stop?
Lokiyn 12-10-05, 04:14 PM	Patashu - hmm, I'm not quite following your idea, perhaps you would like to clarify it more before I start jumping to conclusions about it? I call board copyright on this idea since it was first postulated on the boards in my thread on genesis in my sig. And i'm ninety % sure that the "start of the universe" weighs more than 20 pounds which is the limit on weight for a glove of storiing. Howeve quintessense might stop it from expanding. However i seriously doubt that the dnd cosmology was a big bang start up.