Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gabrion 04-29-05, 03:41 AM	So the feat has been kicked around to death, but I have another idea for it. As always, I recognize that someone has probably already done this, so I'm prolly repeating, but here goes... I won't post a whole build, because the idea is based around one level of one PrC. Spelldancer. This PrC from Magic of Faerun allows you to dance while casting to add a metamagic feat to a spell without raising the level. It also increases the casting of either arcane or divine casting (I prefer the latter, since we should be using persistent spell for battle buffs). The problems come in a pair. 1) Requires Combat Casting, Dodge, Endurance, and Mobility. Crappy. 2) Spelldancing requires a Fort save if you dance for more than your level+CON modifier in one day, or you lose 2 points of CON and are fatigued. I have no solution for the first problem (the class is way too tough to enter), but the second seems to have a few ways of getting around it. What we need is a super high Fort save. Actually the point of this optimization excercise is to get the cleric's fort save as high as possible. Besides the base save from the cleric class, what are some good ways to raise this save? Edit: The above goal has been accoplished and the new goal that was set was to simply find a way of being immune to fatigue and ability damage. Also, I'm more interested in ideas for an arcane caster at this point. Right now the best answer seems to be casting Kiss of the Vampire (Libris Mortis) before dancing, but if someone has a better strategy, please let me know.
allenchan 04-29-05, 03:55 AM	Why not the thing from Complete Adventurer that lets you replace a fort save with a Concentration check? Its pretty easy to boost.
gabrion 04-29-05, 04:21 AM	Actually I was thinking about just that. The Headband of Conscious Effort I believe it's called. If I remember correctly though, you can only use it once per day though and I will need to may serveral checks in order to keep dancing for a long time. If we apply the forumula for creating magic items in reverse however, I could make the item a continuous effect instead of a number of times per day and it would cost 20,000 gold instead of 4,000. That's fine with me though. Add to that an item that increases concentration by 30, a skill focus for 3, a Marshal Cohort with the motivate constitution aura for another 12, and with max ranks I would have a +91 to the check. With an average roll this would be a check of 101, which means I could use cast 15 persistent spells each morning without fear of becoming fatigued.
NateNate 04-29-05, 07:59 AM	Here are a few solutions to your problems: 1. Flaws, Fighter 2, or Cobra Strike Monk 2 can help out a lot with this. 2. Horizon Walker 1: Desert Terrain Mastery, or the feat Tireless (PGtF) will make you immune to Fatigue. With Lesser Restoration you can dance as much as you want. Also, any Undead, Construct, or other nonability Con creature will never tire, so the +0 LA undead race in the Necronomicon may be a good choice for infinite dancing.
gabrion 04-29-05, 08:08 AM	2. Horizon Walker 1: Desert Terrain Mastery, or the feat Tireless (PGtF) will make you immune to Fatigue. With Lesser Restoration you can dance as much as you want. Also, any Undead, Construct, or other nonability Con creature will never tire, so the +0 LA undead race in the Necronomicon may be a good choice for infinite dancing. That stuff actually helps a lot. I don't like the idea of being undead, but for the sake of optimiztion it solve a lot of problems for this character. I would like to do this withouth being undead though, so the tireless feat takes care of my fatigue problem. The other part of dacing too much is that I lose CON though. Any way you can think of to prevent ability loss. An item maybe? Must go find answers...
NateNate 04-29-05, 10:24 AM	Commission a Wand of Lesser Restoration. Since the creator of the item doesn't have to be the one casting the spell (it can be from another character or a scroll), hire a Paladin to cast it. Its a 1st level spell with a minimum caster level of 2, so it'd only be 1500 gp for a 50 charge wand, or 30 gp per 1d4 Con damage cured. That spell will also cure any Fatigue you've accumulated, just in case it happens. Since the spell is on the Cleric list, you can still activate it with no problem.
gabrion 04-29-05, 10:44 AM	Well the wand will work if it comes to that, but the idea is to use the spelldance to buff at the start of every day. I want to have these buffs active at all times. I plan on casting a large number of buffs, and if I have to use the wand 5x per day (which is less than I probably would have to), it will run out pretty quick. No items guard against ability damage? I find that strange.
NateNate 04-29-05, 11:13 AM	I think there is a magical shield which prevents something like 5 points/day, but I don't know where to find it. The only place I saw it mentioned was in a Festering Anger thread. You could buff until your Con is at 2 and then cast Heal to put it back to full... Just have a really high Con score and you can do a lot of buffing.
gabrion 04-29-05, 11:30 AM	You could buff until your Con is at 2 and then cast Heal to put it back to full... Just have a really high Con score and you can do a lot of buffing. I think this is the best option right now. If I can get my CON up to 30, then I can dance about 15x per day (since the first one won't do any damage), and even more if I make my saves. The great part was the idea for overcoming fatigue, because normally the spelldancer has to stop if they dance once after being fatigued. This way I can just keep dancing and taking CON damage till I'm really low and then I can cast heal to fix all of it. I'm really glad this idea is working out. I know everyone has seem a million cheesy ways to abuse persistent spell with divine metamagic, so I'm happy to come upi with another way. The theme behind the build is pretty cool too. The character rises early in the morning and to prepare for the day begins a long dance. He puts all of his energy into the dance and by the time he's done, he is exhausted so he draws on the power of his diety to refresh him. The other good thing is that this idea is usable for arcane casters as well. Clerics used to have a huge advantage buffing since they could use divine metamagice to persist a spell without raising the level. Now the wizard can do the same.
Zemyla 04-29-05, 11:33 AM	The UA wizard variant that lets you get fighter feats instead of wizard feats might help you enter. 1st level: Dodge, Endurance 3rd level: Combat Casting 5th level: Mobility And that qualifies, even if you aren't human. Of course, you won't be able to get Persistent Spell until 9th level, but that's about when you're getting all the spells you want to make persistent.
gabrion 04-29-05, 01:26 PM	Thanks Zemyla, that idea from UA helps. What I'm still looking for though is a spell that prevents ability drain. There is an 8th level or so spell that turns you into metal and prevents the ability loss, but it has a 50% spell failure. The other option I'm looking into is polymorphing into something that prevents ability drain before I do the dance. I know there has to be a monster out their that I can use to stop this darn ability loss.
solbergb 04-29-05, 01:53 PM	You're a cleric. Just cast lesser restoration when you need to. Keep a potion around for when you need it in a standard action instead of a 3 round casting time. Healing lorecall is another way to remove fatigue, if you have the heal skill ranks.
MechaboyDos 04-29-05, 02:00 PM	There's a Feat from Libris Mortis called Sacred Vitality, lets you burn a turn attempt to gain immunity to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain for one minute. So you spend the first round doing that and then you can do 9 buffs before having to burn another turn.
faradhii 04-29-05, 03:21 PM	Take 3 levels of spelldancer, the 2nd ain't bad, you get evasion. the 3rd is the key, you get cooperative spelldance. Take Leadership feat and make your cohort have MAX ranks in dance (make it a bard who can sing during cmbat, something like that) then your cohort shares the burden of dancing dropping the high cost of each persistent spell from 6 to 2. Many more buffs. I did just this with an Arcane caster. 1: Persistent Draconic Might. 2: Persistent Draconic Polymorph: War Troll. 3: Persistent Symbul's Spell Matrix. (load that with offensive spells) 4: Persistent Stoneskin. you get the idea, the other key is buffing yourself with something that boosts your Con first.
lokkesmadr 04-29-05, 03:21 PM	Buffering armor, from the A&EG absorbs a number of instances of ability drain/damage equal to it's enhancement bonus, it also allows you to make a fort save (y'know, that thing you've just min/maxed) against ability drain/damage. Get a suit of Buffering leafweave padded armor +1 and cast magic vestment on it every morning. You can now dance pretty much indefinitely (whenever you take con damage you make a ludicrously high concentration check and, if you are so unlucky as to roll a 1, you are prevented from taking damage anyway)
gabrion 04-29-05, 03:40 PM	Well, buffering would work if I do the maxed out concentration thing, but I think that would take to much time and effort. Either way, if I were to do that, I could just use the idea with the headband, since either way I would be making a Concentration check to avoid CON loss. The problem with it is that I'm really pushing for an unlimited use of the dancing, and eventually the DC of the concentration check will be too high. Luckily, I have scoured my collection of D+D books, and I believe I have a solution to the problem. Remeber that the idea already works for divine casters, since they can cast the sheltered vitality spell from LM, so the challenge was to make this work for arcane casters. Enter my recent find... The 8th level Arcane Spell Veil of Undeath from Libris Mortis makes you immune to fatigue and prevents ability damage. What's more, the duration is 10 min/level, so you will have plenty of time to dance and cast all of the buff spells you can prepare. Of course if you don't like the flavor of veil of undeath just dispel it when you are done dancing. This could lead to some really sweet Wizard tanks. Thx for the help and ideas everyone, I think this will be a really useful idea for optimization.
widow 04-29-05, 05:32 PM	I dont have the book in front of me, but does deathward protect against ability drain. Also look up favor of ilamater from magic of fauren. It is a level 4 spell (valid for persistent spell) that makes you immune to fatigue. Now I am not sure if it is one of the spells put on the various initiate only lists in 3.5. What about working in the green star adept to make yourself a construct? Just to plug weird undead things as well, vampires get a number of the required feats as bonus feats, although at their +5 LA.
gabrion 04-29-05, 05:59 PM	I dont have the book in front of me, but does deathward protect against ability drain. Also look up favor of ilamater from magic of fauren. It is a level 4 spell (valid for persistent spell) that makes you immune to fatigue. Now I am not sure if it is one of the spells put on the various initiate only lists in 3.5. Deathward doesn't. Favor of ilmater prevents fatigue, but i've already found serveral ways to do that. It's on the Initiate of Ilmater spell list, but it still wont help me. What about working in the green star adept to make yourself a construct? Just to plug weird undead things as well, vampires get a number of the required feats as bonus feats, although at their +5 LA. The GSA won't work because the build is set for the most part. As for vampires, yes that idea is hlepful, but not in the direct way you're talking about. Instead, I found a spell (5th level?) in Libris Mortis that gives me the qualities of a vampire, so that should do everything I need. Thanks for all the hlep though. Since so many people are still posting Divine stuff, maybe I need to edit the first post...
ed209 04-30-05, 12:16 AM	The problems come in a pair. 1) Requires Combat Casting, Dodge, Endurance, and Mobility. Crappy. 2) Spelldancing requires a Fort save if you dance for more than your level+CON modifier in one day, or you lose 2 points of CON and are fatigued. I have no solution for the first problem (the class is way too tough to enter), but the second seems to have a few ways of getting around it. What we need is a super high Fort save. Actually the point of this optimization excercise is to get the cleric's fort save as high as possible. ... Uhm, I have a rather convoluted solution to number one. First, check out this spell: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20000901a That would cover 3 of the 4 feats. So, first of all, you pull out your handy dandy Monster Manual(or other appropriate core or splat book of choice), then summon a few creatures that would know these feats and have them demonstrate them for you. Then cast Mirror Move. (all this assumes an INT of at least 16; or 12 with Fox's Cunning) Unfortunately, this SEVERELY limits the time you have to buff your self using Spelldance(and drop your caster level once the spell wore off, since you no longer qualify for the PRC), at least until you can Persistant Mirror Move. Of course, if you go the divine route(which, from the looks of it, you've already vetoed), Divine Metamagic is your friend. :)
lokkesmadr 04-30-05, 01:38 AM	Why not just, y'know, persist the Mirror Move spell? Is that too obvious a solution?
Frieza-Prexus 04-30-05, 02:10 AM	Sheltered Vitality (Clr 3) in Libris Mortis makes you immune to ability damage/drain for like a minute per level.
ed209 04-30-05, 08:03 AM	Why not just, y'know, persist the Mirror Move spell? Is that too obvious a solution? ... The earliest you can qualify for Spelldancer is after 5th level for wiz/cleric/druid. (after 6th for sorc) If you're the wizard, the earliest you can persist Mirror Move is 15th level. That's a very long wait...
lokkesmadr 04-30-05, 09:29 AM	Why not, y'know, spelldance in order to persist the spell? Since this thread is looking to get the maximium amount of spelldancing possible in order to persist spells that would appear to be a pretty logical solution.
gabrion 04-30-05, 12:09 PM	@ed209-Nice idea with the spell, and it also gives me some other ideas. :) I don't use much stuff from the WotC site though, so I was wondering if there was some way of knowing if this works in 3.5. Thx. ... The earliest you can qualify for Spelldancer is after 5th level for wiz/cleric/druid. (after 6th for sorc) If you're the wizard, the earliest you can persist Mirror Move is 15th level. That's a very long wait... But I don't understand this. I could persist the spell as soon as I can cast it, if I have a level of Spelldancer. Why not, y'know, spelldance in order to persist the spell? Since this thread is looking to get the maximium amount of spelldancing possible in order to persist spells that would appear to be a pretty logical solution. This seems to be correct. I can make Mirror Move the first Spell I Persist and it solves a lot of problems. This spell opens a big can of worms though. There have been many conflicts over whether or not a person must maintain the requirements for a PrC to keep the benefits. If the spell ends and I no longer have the feats for Spelldancer, what stuff will I lose? It would make sense to me that I would lose my ability to Spelldance (which I wouldn't care about through most of the day), but what about my spellcasting progression?
Belldandy 04-30-05, 12:36 PM	I just got this thought of a funky dancing lich! he can metamagic EVERYTHING to everything! empowered persistant spells check plus it a dancing undead!!! rock on! :D
gabrion 04-30-05, 12:55 PM	I just got this thought of a funky dancing lich! he can metamagic EVERYTHING to everything! empowered persistant spells check plus it a dancing undead!!! rock on! :D Ya, like I said, I think this dancing thing is a very exploitable trick. As long as you can get past the CON dmg and the fatigue, metamagic spells don't cost anything anymore. The only drawback is that it won't really work in combat, but for buffs, well....ya.
Belldandy 04-30-05, 01:00 PM	boomy spells are easy* Time stop, dance to death (you`re a lich baby!) and then complete the spell when it ends! (delayed fireballs are another option!) * At high levels of course... One more thing: I used this class AGES ago. But was told I was a munchkin git. And my character had to be changed. Ahh the days of the early persistant spell! Fantastic! For wizards it`s easier to get into isn`t it? As you need all your feats, (as does a cleric) but you can get the extra wizard feats for your needed metamagics! Nice to see others eeing the old potential!
gabrion 04-30-05, 02:05 PM	Ya, Time Stop adds some potential, but it's still pretty limited. I guess you could pull off a mazimized 9th level spell, which is always nice. As far as you using it a long time ago, I knew people had to have noticed this trick! I was just wondering if people had posted a full build on the CO board yet. I think I'm going to do just that, a build with every possible buff spell persistented. It will rock. As far as the feats go, yes the wizard does let us have an extra metamagic, but the cleric seems to have better buff potential in some ways. I'm still interested in the mirror move spell mentioned above though. If I persist it and summon a medium fire elemental to learn dodge, mobility, and improved initiative, can the first two be used as requirements for the spelldancer PrC? Even if they can, what happens if the spell ends?
ed209 04-30-05, 02:26 PM	But I don't understand this. I could persist the spell as soon as I can cast it, if I have a level of Spelldancer. This spell opens a big can of worms though. There have been many conflicts over whether or not a person must maintain the requirements for a PrC to keep the benefits. If the spell ends and I no longer have the feats for Spelldancer, what stuff will I lose? It would make sense to me that I would lose my ability to Spelldance (which I wouldn't care about through most of the day), but what about my spellcasting progression? ... And this is exactly what I was talking about. According to text mentioned in a few of the Complete splat books, if you lose the prereqs for a PRC, you lose everything from the PRC except HD, BAB, & saves. So, you can't Spelldance Mirror Move first thing in the day if your last Mirror Move already expired because you no longer have access to the PRC. Fun catch 22. Either you're recasting Mirror move a few rounds earlier every day, or you cast it twice in a row, once to activate your PRC, and then again to Persistant it. I guess Practiced Spellcaster can be helpful if you take more than a level or 2 in the PRC(in case you ever get dispelled), but you'd still lose your higher level spell slots 'til you cast summon & Mirror Move again. This is why I don't think most DM's would say no to this, because if they really wanted to, they could regularly shut it down. It would definitely be entertaining to roleplay worrying constantly about losing character abilities... :)
Belldandy 04-30-05, 02:30 PM	I'm still interested in the mirror move spell mentioned above though. If I persist it and summon a medium fire elemental to learn dodge, mobility, and improved initiative, can the first two be used as requirements for the spelldancer PrC? Even if they can, what happens if the spell ends? Well I`d say no. I was wondering if you could get it PERMANCY`d on you? (scrolls and things) but that would be a DM call (and EVERY bugger under the sun would do it. Another STUPID spell! Free feats for the masses!) Or you can, as a cleric, get Divine Metamagic, Persistant But I don`t think non permenant (it could be dispelled if persistant) feats would be acceptable. (But at the same time, if you have them for 24 hours everyday, it pretty much is) Considering what you`re trying to munchkin, keeping it simple is probably the best way to go. And remember, look into your domains! 2 Feats for free (extend from planning for one, a needed member for the persistant tree!) I saw another buffer, at 3rd level he could persistant 2 spells a DAY!!! (Domains planning, for extend and undeath for extra turning) H Persistant spell 1 Divine metamagic persistant spell 3 Starting CHA of 16 (yup could be better!) Turning a day of: 6 normal, 4 extra turning, another 4 extra turning give 14 TOTAL, Just enought to divine persistant 2 spells a day! but it costs more feats again! lol!
gabrion 04-30-05, 02:52 PM	Ignore
gabrion 04-30-05, 02:52 PM	Well I`d say no. I was wondering if you could get it PERMANCY`d on you? (scrolls and things) but that would be a DM call (and EVERY bugger under the sun would do it. Another STUPID spell! Free feats for the masses!) Ya, this would be ridiculous. I also asked ealier if this spell is even 3.5, since it seems really dangerous and I don't know many DMs who would allow it. It's one thing to use it on a monster you summon, since it's hard to find one with all the feats you want, but what if a Wiz with high INT spars with his fighter every morning and gets 12 of his fighter feats? Scary. Or you can, as a cleric, get Divine Metamagic, Persistant I saw another buffer, at 3rd level he could persistant 2 spells a DAY!!! (Domains planning, for extend and undeath for extra turning) H Persistant spell 1 Divine metamagic persistant spell 3 Starting CHA of 16 (yup could be better!) Turning a day of: 6 normal, 4 extra turning, another 4 extra turning give 14 TOTAL, Just enought to divine persistant 2 spells a day! but it costs more feats again! lol! As said earlier, the spelldancer can be used with divine or arcane casters. I was only focussing on arcane because persistent spell with divine casters is already super easy to break. 2 persistent spells per day? That's no fun! Buy a bunch of nightsticks and you can get unlimited persistent spells. The problem (and I tried to mention this in the first post) is that such a tactic is too cheesy for even my taste. Using the spelldancer in this way is cheesy too, but I think it actually makes sense because... It takes you a long time to cast spells, but you can add metamagic without increasing the level. You get tired if you cast to many spells in this way, so we have tried to make a character that doesn't get tired.
Belldandy 04-30-05, 03:41 PM	You get tired if you cast to many spells in this way, so we have tried to make a character that doesn't get tired. and with the tireless regional feat? what more do you want!?
catharz 04-30-05, 03:50 PM	I saw another buffer, at 3rd level he could persistant 2 spells a DAY!!! (Domains planning, for extend and undeath for extra turning) H Persistant spell 1 Divine metamagic persistant spell 3 Starting CHA of 16 (yup could be better!) Turning a day of: 6 normal, 4 extra turning, another 4 extra turning give 14 TOTAL, Just enought to divine persistant 2 spells a day! but it costs more feats again! lol! You'd be better off with Planning and Animal or Air, Earth, Fire, Plant, etc.
gabrion 04-30-05, 05:02 PM	You'd be better off with Planning and Animal or Air, Earth, Fire, Plant, etc. Not really, since those things can't fuel divine metamagic. Of course if you interpret the the text in the feat to mean any turning, instead of just a shortening of the turn/rebuke listed in the prereqs then you would be right, but most people I know only allow turn/rebuke undead to fuel divine feats. In any case, nightsticks work better.
AramilWindwalker 04-30-05, 10:46 PM	just a question, but exactly how many extra turnings do nightsticks give and what is the cost of it?
gabrion 05-01-05, 12:50 AM	@Aramil-Nightsticks give 4 extra turnings and according to RAW they stack. They cost 7,500 gp per stick and you can find them in Libris Mortis. @All-Since we have figured out a way to cast an unlimited number of Persistent Spells of any level, I was trying to put together a character who uses all of these buffs together. I found a nifty list of spells that can be made persistent, but I ran into a bit of a rules problem. In 3.0 an FAQ stated that Touch Spells cannot be used with this feat. 3.5 FAQ doesn't say anything like this. I've heard people say that touch spells do not have a fixed range and that is what the 3.0 FAQ was clarifying (not the feat itself), but I've also heard that a touch spell could be effectively a range 0 ft. spell. I just need to know if anyone heard a definitive 3.5 answer for this, cause it makes a difference in putting together the build as a whole. Thanks for any clarifications.
PhaedrusXY 05-01-05, 01:15 AM	In 3.0 an FAQ stated that Touch Spells cannot be used with this feat. 3.5 FAQ doesn't say anything like this. I've heard people say that touch spells do not have a fixed range and that is what the 3.0 FAQ was clarifying (not the feat itself), but I've also heard that a touch spell could be effectively a range 0 ft. spell. I just need to know if anyone heard a definitive 3.5 answer for this, cause it makes a difference in putting together the build as a whole. Thanks for any clarifications.Nothing in the description of which spells Persistent Spell applies to has changed. The definition of what a Touch Spell is hasn't changed either. So the 3.0 FAQ is still valid on this issue. There is no need to directly copy every little sentence of the entire 3.0 FAQ into the 3.5 one on issues that have not changed.
gabrion 05-01-05, 02:49 AM	Nothing in the description of which spells Persistent Spell applies to has changed. The definition of what a Touch Spell is hasn't changed either. So the 3.0 FAQ is still valid on this issue. There is no need to directly copy every little sentence of the entire 3.0 FAQ into the 3.5 one on issues that have not changed. Hey Phaedrus. I don't disagree with the sentiment, but I'm just unclear on where in 3.0 or 3.5 it says that a touch spell doesn't have a fixed range. Several people have expressed opinions on this. One is that touch spells have a n effective range of 0 ft (the range is always at the edge of your flesh, which is always 0 ft. from you). Another claim is that touch spell are only written as such to make the spell more versatile than personal spells, but a touch spell cast on the caster is effectively the same as a personal range spell. I know these also don't have RAW supporting them (or at least not to my knowledge), but I don't think the "touch as not fixed range" interpretation is supported by RAW either. Am I just lacking common sense?
PhaedrusXY 05-01-05, 03:25 AM	Hey Phaedrus. I don't disagree with the sentiment, but I'm just unclear on where in 3.0 or 3.5 it says that a touch spell doesn't have a fixed range. In the 3.0 FAQ, just like you said. Would spells that have touch range, such as spell resistance, be considered to have a fixed range, and therefore be usable with the Persistent Spell feat? No. Range touch is not “fixed” for purposes of the Persistent Spell feat. The spell must affect the caster’s person (personal range) or have some effect that radiates from the caster’s person (a fixed range, expressed in feet).The term "Fixed range" was something they introduced with the Persistent Spell feat itself, as far as I know. So you're not going to find anything in the core rules detailing exactly what "fixed range" means. The best you're going to get as far as a clarification from WotC is that FAQ entry, unless they decide to print something on the issue again. So as far as the most "official" interpretation from WotC.... that's it. Touch Spells cannot be made Persistent.
catharz 05-01-05, 04:15 AM	Not really, since those things can't fuel divine metamagic. Of course if you interpret the the text in the feat to mean any turning, instead of just a shortening of the turn/rebuke listed in the prereqs then you would be right, but most people I know only allow turn/rebuke undead to fuel divine feats. In any case, nightsticks work better. According to Skippy, anything which works 'as good clerics turn undead' works, because they're all channeling divine energy.
charlesatan 05-01-05, 08:24 AM	Hey Phaedrus. I don't disagree with the sentiment, but I'm just unclear on where in 3.0 or 3.5 it says that a touch spell doesn't have a fixed range. Several people have expressed opinions on this. One is that touch spells have a n effective range of 0 ft (the range is always at the edge of your flesh, which is always 0 ft. from you). Another claim is that touch spell are only written as such to make the spell more versatile than personal spells, but a touch spell cast on the caster is effectively the same as a personal range spell. I know these also don't have RAW supporting them (or at least not to my knowledge), but I don't think the "touch as not fixed range" interpretation is supported by RAW either. Am I just lacking common sense? Actually either way, it still won't work since Persistent Spell mentions that you can't use it on spells that can be discharged (which is the case with touch spells).
Elan The Eternal 05-01-05, 09:52 AM	If eberron is allowed you can be warforged they don't get fatigued i once fought about this spelldancer+persistent and i'm pretty sure it's better than the divine metamagic+persistent thing
gabrion 05-01-05, 02:50 PM	In the 3.0 FAQ, just like you said. The term "Fixed range" was something they introduced with the Persistent Spell feat itself, as far as I know. So you're not going to find anything in the core rules detailing exactly what "fixed range" means. The best you're going to get as far as a clarification from WotC is that FAQ entry, unless they decide to print something on the issue again. So as far as the most "official" interpretation from WotC.... that's it. Touch Spells cannot be made Persistent. Ya I know the idea has been pretty much accepted by everyone but me, but I'm just contrary any time the only justification for a rule is the 3.0 FAQ. :P Actually either way, it still won't work since Persistent Spell mentions that you can't use it on spells that can be discharged (which is the case with touch spells). This makes more sense to me. I'm still a little skeptical though, since holding the charge for a touch spell is a lot like not having completed the casting. I just mean that the discharge ones they were talking about seem to be ones that can be used a certain number of times and then are done. If eberron is allowed you can be warforged they don't get fatigued i once fought about this spelldancer+persistent and i'm pretty sure it's better than the divine metamagic+persistent thing Ya, looks like there are a bunch of ways to get past fatigue! I'll have to look again when I get home, but I thought Warforged were prone to fatigue. I'm not sure if this is better than the divine metamagic+persistent, and I'm even more worried if I can't use touch spells on myself. In an effort to make arcane casters useful, a lot of buff spells were created with touch as their range. Thanks to this, they really lose out with persistent spell. Does anyone have a list of persistent arcane spells, or a link to one?
PhaedrusXY 05-01-05, 07:12 PM	There are compilation threads for persistent spells for both clerics and wizards in the Optimization Library. Here is a link to the wizard one: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=108949