A New Take On The Gish. [Archive] - Wizards Community

A New Take On The Gish. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
CompleteSatori
08-05-04, 07:21 PM Hey Folks,

I have been discouraged lately, since noone seems to have any constructive criticism about my builds, so I decided to put together an offense against nature...

A Gish with no high level spellcasting!! Hah!

No seriously, I have always loved the concept of the Mind Spy, but never did anything with it. And then the other night I decided to take up the challenge, and create a monster using that class as the centerpiece.
Here it is:

The Mindspy Spellblade!

Sorcerer 6/ Mindspy 5/ Soldier of the Light 2/ Spellsword 7
Phrenic Human

1 -Sorcerer- [Power Attack], [Versatile: Knowledge-Religion, Use Magic Device*]/ Spellcasting, Familiar
2 -Sorcerer-
3 -Sorcerer- [Improved Toughness]
4 -Sorcerer-
5 -Planar Sorcerer- Force Charged Energy
6 -Sorcerer- [Heighten Spell]
7 -Mindspy- Anticipate, Combat Telepathy, Spherical Detect Thoughts
8 -Mindspy- Faster Mindscan
9 -Soldier- [Divine Might]/ Detect Undead, Turn Undead
10 -Soldier- Divine Grace, Smite Undead 1/day
11 -Mindspy- Multiple Surface Thoughts x2
12 -Mindspy- [Practiced Spellcaster]/ Instant Mindscan
13 -Mindspy- Multiple Surface Thoughts x4
14 -Spellsword- Ignore Spell Failure 10%
15 -Spellsword- [Sacred Healing]/ [Widen Spell*]
16 -Spellsword- Ignore Spell Failure 15%
17 -Spellsword- Channel Spell 3/day
18 -Spellsword- [Arcane Strike]/ Ignore Spell Failure 20%
19 -Spellsword- Channel Spell 4/day
20 -Spellsword- Ignore Spell Failure 25%

Spells Per Day:
0- 6
1- 9 [1.- 3/day SoL: Cure Light Wounds x2, Detect Evil
2- 9(15)
3- 8(14)
4- 7
5- 5

Spells Known:
0- 9

1- Know Protections(MoF), Kaupers Skittish Nerves(MoF), Protection From Evil,
Comprehend Languages, Expeditious Retreat.

2- Detect Thoughts, Web, Touch of Idiocy, Scorching Ray

3- Blink, Vampiric Touch, Haste

4- Spell Enhancer(MoF), Thunderlance(FRCS)

5- Firebrand(MoF)

I know, I know, I have been on this Phrenic kick as of late, but I really love the template and it offers everything that a Gish would want, SR (11+HD with no limit), bonus' to mental stats and (Psi) abilities as well. Aside from that, this is an excellent defensive as well as offensive build. He can heal (Sacred Healing), blast (Evocation stuff), and melee very well with 80 average hit points on his HD, + Improved Toughness etc.

I really love the Mind Spy's class abilities, they make him a real DM pain in the arse in and out of combat, what with the ability to read peoples minds at once, and instantly!

Anyways, pick away folks, I am sure I forgot something.

NOTE: I do not like the Eldritch Knight PrC, as I feel it is both flavorless and sucky, so I opted to lose some caster levels since they were not useful to my design (maxed out on second level spells for Detect Thoughts already), and stick with heavier armor (Without having to get Twilight and waste a +1), and get more Channeling /day.

EDIT: Changed 6th level Feat from Leadership to Heighten Spell, following a tangent about low spell DC.
Sisyfos
08-05-04, 07:26 PM Originally posted by CompleteSatori
I have been discouraged lately, since noone seems to have any constructive criticism about my builds, so I decided to put together an offense against nature...

Now, now. Some criticism has been offered and people have liked your builds. They are original, interesting and playable. What you should do with them is to post them on the collection threads out there. That summoner build of yours for example definitely has room on a MuckNuggle thread and that way in CO library also.

Sisyfos
CompleteSatori
08-05-04, 07:29 PM I guess I was fishing there, Sis... Dakon had alot to say about my Warchanter build, but I would LOVE for someone to find a way to better these designs, I am sure there are things I am missing, or that I do not know about, etc etc.

And btw, what do you have to say about the Mindspy buid, Sysifos?

:D
Thannin
08-05-04, 07:36 PM My thoughts would be that you'd have to get your detect thoughts save DC up really high somehow... Unfortunately a second level spell isnt hard to resists at higher levels, and mindspy requires a lot of detect thoughts. Perhaps you can somehow enhance your save dc or decrease their will saves somehow?
Sisyfos
08-05-04, 07:37 PM Originally posted by CompleteSatori
I guess I was fishing there, Sis... Dakon had alot to say about my Warchanter build, but I would LOVE for someone to find a way to better these designs, I am sure there are things I am missing, or that I do not know about, etc etc.

And btw, what do you have to say about the Mindspy buid, Sysifos?

:D

That warchanter was cool (I rarely use that word) and definitely worth saving. Post it on the bard thread out there. I incorporated some elements of that into my changeling marshal4/paladin(CG)4/Bard4/warshaper4/FREE4 (I was thinking of dragonsong lyricist for the last 4 levels or warchanter).

About the gish build. I haven't really looked at it much, I just swallowed your fishing bait. Without looking at it too closely yet I have to say that I think it will probably underperform as it has no edge compared to builds like cleric20 (but then again a lot of builds lose to that). Maybe I'll change my mind later, but now I have to get some sleep as it is 2.30 AM here.

Sisyfos
CompleteSatori
08-06-04, 02:14 PM Originally posted by Thannin
My thoughts would be that you'd have to get your detect thoughts save DC up really high somehow... Unfortunately a second level spell isnt hard to resists at higher levels, and mindspy requires a lot of detect thoughts. Perhaps you can somehow enhance your save dc or decrease their will saves somehow?

Got that handled already, Than...
Spell Enhancer from Magic of Faerun is a free action to cast (3.5 would call it a Swift action), and it raises the DC of the spell you cast that round, by 2. Making this characters DC-24 for a second level spell. Yes it still is low, my only other idea is to change up the feats to get Heighten Spell and move it up to a 5th level spell, making that DC change to 27. In fact I might do that.

Originally posted by Sis
I incorporated some elements of that into my changeling marshal4/paladin(CG)4/Bard4/warshaper4/FREE4 (I was thinking of dragonsong lyricist for the last 4 levels or warchanter).

I would put either 3 levels of Warchanter in there, or more likely, 3 levels of Warrior Skald. Warrior Skald's Inspire Heroism ability is superior to the Bards, in that it grants +4 morale to saves/attacks/damage/AC for duration of song+5 rounds (all that is doubled if you get Words of Creation) to multiple allies depending on level.
Then again, twisting Inspire Recklessness and Inspire Courage is pretty cool too. Your choice.

As far as underperformance, I would love a complete opinion when you wake up, and I don't think a whole lot of builds out-perform Cleric 20!:rolleyes:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CompleteSatori 08-05-04, 07:21 PM	Hey Folks, I have been discouraged lately, since noone seems to have any constructive criticism about my builds, so I decided to put together an offense against nature... A Gish with no high level spellcasting!! Hah! No seriously, I have always loved the concept of the Mind Spy, but never did anything with it. And then the other night I decided to take up the challenge, and create a monster using that class as the centerpiece. Here it is: The Mindspy Spellblade! Sorcerer 6/ Mindspy 5/ Soldier of the Light 2/ Spellsword 7 Phrenic Human 1 -Sorcerer- [Power Attack], [Versatile: Knowledge-Religion, Use Magic Device]/ Spellcasting, Familiar 2 -Sorcerer- 3 -Sorcerer- [Improved Toughness] 4 -Sorcerer- 5 -Planar Sorcerer- Force Charged Energy 6 -Sorcerer- [Heighten Spell] 7 -Mindspy- Anticipate, Combat Telepathy, Spherical Detect Thoughts 8 -Mindspy- Faster Mindscan 9 -Soldier- [Divine Might]/ Detect Undead, Turn Undead 10 -Soldier- Divine Grace, Smite Undead 1/day 11 -Mindspy- Multiple Surface Thoughts x2 12 -Mindspy- [Practiced Spellcaster]/ Instant Mindscan 13 -Mindspy- Multiple Surface Thoughts x4 14 -Spellsword- Ignore Spell Failure 10% 15 -Spellsword- [Sacred Healing]/ [Widen Spell] 16 -Spellsword- Ignore Spell Failure 15% 17 -Spellsword- Channel Spell 3/day 18 -Spellsword- [Arcane Strike]/ Ignore Spell Failure 20% 19 -Spellsword- Channel Spell 4/day 20 -Spellsword- Ignore Spell Failure 25% Spells Per Day: 0- 6 1- 9 [1.- 3/day SoL: Cure Light Wounds x2, Detect Evil 2- 9(15) 3- 8(14) 4- 7 5- 5 Spells Known: 0- 9 1- Know Protections(MoF), Kaupers Skittish Nerves(MoF), Protection From Evil, Comprehend Languages, Expeditious Retreat. 2- Detect Thoughts, Web, Touch of Idiocy, Scorching Ray 3- Blink, Vampiric Touch, Haste 4- Spell Enhancer(MoF), Thunderlance(FRCS) 5- Firebrand(MoF) I know, I know, I have been on this Phrenic kick as of late, but I really love the template and it offers everything that a Gish would want, SR (11+HD with no limit), bonus' to mental stats and (Psi) abilities as well. Aside from that, this is an excellent defensive as well as offensive build. He can heal (Sacred Healing), blast (Evocation stuff), and melee very well with 80 average hit points on his HD, + Improved Toughness etc. I really love the Mind Spy's class abilities, they make him a real DM pain in the arse in and out of combat, what with the ability to read peoples minds at once, and instantly! Anyways, pick away folks, I am sure I forgot something. NOTE: I do not like the Eldritch Knight PrC, as I feel it is both flavorless and sucky, so I opted to lose some caster levels since they were not useful to my design (maxed out on second level spells for Detect Thoughts already), and stick with heavier armor (Without having to get Twilight and waste a +1), and get more Channeling /day. EDIT: Changed 6th level Feat from Leadership to Heighten Spell, following a tangent about low spell DC.
Sisyfos 08-05-04, 07:26 PM	Originally posted by CompleteSatori I have been discouraged lately, since noone seems to have any constructive criticism about my builds, so I decided to put together an offense against nature... Now, now. Some criticism has been offered and people have liked your builds. They are original, interesting and playable. What you should do with them is to post them on the collection threads out there. That summoner build of yours for example definitely has room on a MuckNuggle thread and that way in CO library also. Sisyfos
CompleteSatori 08-05-04, 07:29 PM	I guess I was fishing there, Sis... Dakon had alot to say about my Warchanter build, but I would LOVE for someone to find a way to better these designs, I am sure there are things I am missing, or that I do not know about, etc etc. And btw, what do you have to say about the Mindspy buid, Sysifos? :D
Thannin 08-05-04, 07:36 PM	My thoughts would be that you'd have to get your detect thoughts save DC up really high somehow... Unfortunately a second level spell isnt hard to resists at higher levels, and mindspy requires a lot of detect thoughts. Perhaps you can somehow enhance your save dc or decrease their will saves somehow?
Sisyfos 08-05-04, 07:37 PM	Originally posted by CompleteSatori I guess I was fishing there, Sis... Dakon had alot to say about my Warchanter build, but I would LOVE for someone to find a way to better these designs, I am sure there are things I am missing, or that I do not know about, etc etc. And btw, what do you have to say about the Mindspy buid, Sysifos? :D That warchanter was cool (I rarely use that word) and definitely worth saving. Post it on the bard thread out there. I incorporated some elements of that into my changeling marshal4/paladin(CG)4/Bard4/warshaper4/FREE4 (I was thinking of dragonsong lyricist for the last 4 levels or warchanter). About the gish build. I haven't really looked at it much, I just swallowed your fishing bait. Without looking at it too closely yet I have to say that I think it will probably underperform as it has no edge compared to builds like cleric20 (but then again a lot of builds lose to that). Maybe I'll change my mind later, but now I have to get some sleep as it is 2.30 AM here. Sisyfos
CompleteSatori 08-06-04, 02:14 PM	Originally posted by Thannin My thoughts would be that you'd have to get your detect thoughts save DC up really high somehow... Unfortunately a second level spell isnt hard to resists at higher levels, and mindspy requires a lot of detect thoughts. Perhaps you can somehow enhance your save dc or decrease their will saves somehow? Got that handled already, Than... Spell Enhancer from Magic of Faerun is a free action to cast (3.5 would call it a Swift action), and it raises the DC of the spell you cast that round, by 2. Making this characters DC-24 for a second level spell. Yes it still is low, my only other idea is to change up the feats to get Heighten Spell and move it up to a 5th level spell, making that DC change to 27. In fact I might do that. Originally posted by Sis I incorporated some elements of that into my changeling marshal4/paladin(CG)4/Bard4/warshaper4/FREE4 (I was thinking of dragonsong lyricist for the last 4 levels or warchanter). I would put either 3 levels of Warchanter in there, or more likely, 3 levels of Warrior Skald. Warrior Skald's Inspire Heroism ability is superior to the Bards, in that it grants +4 morale to saves/attacks/damage/AC for duration of song+5 rounds (all that is doubled if you get Words of Creation) to multiple allies depending on level. Then again, twisting Inspire Recklessness and Inspire Courage is pretty cool too. Your choice. As far as underperformance, I would love a complete opinion when you wake up, and I don't think a whole lot of builds out-perform Cleric 20!:rolleyes: