Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Surreal 07-09-06, 04:49 AM	So I was pondering a paladin without charisma... Warforged sub level 2 replaces divine grace with your Con bonus to Will saves. Steadfast Determination gives Con to Will saves again. Kensai 5 lets me make concentration checks for Ref saves. Dip into Pious Templar gets me Mettle. Some more Con synergy would be nice, though not necessary. Then I started wondering how to get rid of or change turn undead and smite. Are there any other options for removing the Cha dependency of a paladin? Any other sub levels that would be good here? I was thinking the Lion Legionnaire 4th level sub (Champions of Valor), which replaces turn undead with wild fighting (extra attack, all attacks take -2). Not sure if the 5th level sub here would be worth it; giving up a mount for flight. Yes I realize that this kind of takes away the whole point of a paladin, but just humour me here. I'm just playing with options.
Kuroi Kenshi 07-09-06, 12:52 PM	Well there's a feat in Dragon magazine called Serenity which replaces divine grace with wisdom to all saves. But it's Dragon material.
PhoenixInferno 07-09-06, 03:10 PM	Dwarves can get Smite Giants based on their CON bonus.
Surreal 07-10-06, 01:08 AM	Hmm, just messing around with stuff... Dwarf artificer 2/paragon 3/Renegade Mastermaker 10/Deepwarden 2/Paladin 2/Pious Templar 1 - the RM levels turn me into a Warforged so I can grab the paladin 2 sub level - have to do some weird juggling of levels to meet prereqs, but I think it's possible if you start with: artifier 2/paragon 3/paladin 1... then RM, then deepwarden and PT and the last level of paladin, but unfortunately that means I can't take the paladin 1 racial sub level. - unless maybe I do some feat retraining so I can meet the prereqs for RM (craft magic arms and armor require 5th caster level) - no I can't take anymore artifier levels or else I'll incur an xp penalty with paladin Dwarves can get Smite Giants based on their CON bonus. That's the cleric racial sub level right? Hmm, not sure if I can work that in somehow...
moomooacow 07-10-06, 01:34 AM	Hmm, just messing around with stuff... Dwarf artificer 2/paragon 3/Renegade Mastermaker 10/Deepwarden 2/Paladin 2/Pious Templar 1 - the RM levels turn me into a Warforged so I can grab the paladin 2 sub level - have to do some weird juggling of levels to meet prereqs, but I think it's possible if you start with: artifier 2/paragon 3/paladin 1... then RM, then deepwarden and PT and the last level of paladin, but unfortunately that means I can't take the paladin 1 racial sub level. - unless maybe I do some feat retraining so I can meet the prereqs for RM (craft magic arms and armor require 5th caster level) - no I can't take anymore artifier levels or else I'll incur an xp penalty with paladin That's the cleric racial sub level right? Hmm, not sure if I can work that in somehow... How will this guy be effective, at all, until level 15...at which point he'd only be a decent Renegade Mastermaker. This build is good, but only if you're starting at level 20. I, unfortunately, am struggling with the OPs idea/concept. The main point of being a Paladin is to become a Charismatic leader and such, which is why their class skills are highly Charisma-ish. The class itself does suffer from MAD though, which is one reason why I dislike it. My only suggestion for you is then to go Fighter/Cleric and basically make a Paladin, except with better saves and weaker casting. Take a PrC which has decent caster progression. In this way you can focus on Wis and Str.
tsuyoshikentsu 07-10-06, 02:18 AM	Dwarf artificer 2/paragon 3/Renegade Mastermaker 10/Deepwarden 2/Paladin 2/Pious Templar 1Let's see if I can shoehorn Mineral warrior in there... Yes. Mineral Warrior Dwarf Artificer 1/Dwarf Paragon 3/Paladin 1/Renegade Mastermaker 10/Paladin +1/Deepwarden 2/Pious Templar 1 You lose CWI as a bonus, but if you take Practiced Spellcaster at 1 (Artificers can do that, right?) you can nab it at 3 and CMAaA at 6.
Surreal 07-10-06, 02:18 AM	I, unfortunately, am struggling with the OPs idea/concept. The main point of being a Paladin is to become a Charismatic leader and such, which is why their class skills are highly Charisma-ish. I never said I was trying to make an effective build. Just tossing around ideas, like I said here... Yes I realize that this kind of takes away the whole point of a paladin, but just humour me here. I'm just playing with options. It's late and my ideas just kind of go deviating all over the place.