A PHB-only monk. [Archive] - Wizards Community

A PHB-only monk. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TrinityPower
06-09-06, 11:39 AM What would be a good setup for a PHB-Only Monk? I will be using a 36-point buy? Would an inherited template like half dragon be cool to add or would I be losing too much?
Ashlan
06-09-06, 11:52 AM I would seriously recommend staying away from the Half-Dragon template unless you are starting at a very high level. Consider an ECL 4 Human Monk vs Half Dragon Monk. With the 36 pt buy, a simple stat spread would be 16, 16, 14, 14, 12, 8. Probably one of the 16's would go to Con (though thats not guaranteed as monks are very stat dependant) so at ECL 4, you would be Monk 1 with 12 hp where as the human would be Monk 4 with 24 hp (assuming average rolls after 1st level). You would have +3 AC (+4 Nat vs +1 Dodge from monk lvl) over the human and a +1 to hit (+8 Str vs BAB increase). The Natural Attacks help but you also get the saves and other monk abilities sooner as a human. Having only 12 hp at 4th level means that you will likely get taken down in 1 swing from anything that would be a challenge to a typical ECL 4 character.

Ash
solbergb
06-09-06, 01:06 PM Monks are not a good class for any LA race except possibly a size large race with LA=1 and even that is borderline.

Also avoid size small races. Half-elf is the same as human, only with a feat wasted in "elf flavor". Elf trades dex for con, which isn't a good trade on a monk who will use his neck slot for wisdom, not amulet of health. (wood elf is +2 str +2 dex for -2 con, that can work if you spend extra on con) Your best PHB races are dwarf, human and half-orc. Given the paucity of feats in the PHB, human is the weakest choice of the three, unless you want it human for roleplay reasons.

With 36 point buy, you can have solid scores in str, wisdom, dex and con. Do not slight ANY of them, but str and wisdom are most important.

Something like this for attributes before racial mods is pretty good:

str 16, wis 16, dex 15, con 14 int 10 cha 8

(dwarf is 16 con half-orc is 18 str/8 int, both are cha 6...you trade off skills+hitpoints+save bonuse vs raw strength. It is a hard choice. Dwarf is possibly best all-around, with significant defensive advantages that synergize with monk abilities, but half-orc starts you with 18 str, and strength is really good on a build that does flurries/twf/grapple/trip eventually)

15 dex is because you need that for the TWF tree and because if you are enlarged, your dex drops and you'll still want to be able to grapple

If you are restricted only to PHB (not even improved natural attack), and stick with monk, a decent feat path goes something like this:

You will benefit hugely from oil of shillelagh until about level 9, when your unarmed strike (backed by GMW perhaps) makes it no longer worth an action to use.

Until then, the oil gives you effectively a +1 greatsword for both
two-handed attacks and flurry attack for the cost of carrying an oak quarterstaff and a 50gp potion.

L1 Bonus=stun fist, feat = improved grapple

L2 Bonus = combat reflexes

L3 feat = power attack

L4 statbump to strength.

L6 bonus = improved trip, feat = exotic weapon proficiency spike chain
(reach weapons help you use combat reflexes and improved trip)

L8 statbump to strength

L9 feat = twf (TWF isn't very worthwhile when it is -4 or -3 to hit on all yuur attacks. When it is only -2 to hit because of flurry penalties going away, it's better)

In this timeframe a monk's capabilities are greatly enhanced if the party
wizard, cleric or druid casts greater magic weapon/fang on his "flurry" hand. The off-hand attack will normally be used as a tripping maneuver, probably with a kama.

L12 statbump to str, feat = improved TWF (needs ioun stone or gloves+2)
(by now your gaunts of ogre power have been swapped for belt of strength)

L15 +4 gloves of dex (+6 better) feat = greaterTWF

L16 statbump to strength

L18 quickdraw

L20 statbump to strength. (and get a +5 strength book)

You could take TWF earlier, but the penalties are too extreme for my taste (two attacks that hit > three that all miss).

Obviously the post level 9 game depends on what items you find or can buy/commission. I am not a fan of the monk belt on a grapple/trip/flurry build, since strength does too much for you. A +4 belt is +2 to hit, +2 damage, +2 trip checks, +2 grapple checks. A monks belt adds at most +1d6 damage and +1 to your armor class, and is about the same cost.
catharz
06-09-06, 03:54 PM Half-dragons aren't in the PHB, so it seems like a bit of a moot point.

Using the PHB only, here are a couple of decent monk builds:

Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Monk 16.
(martial monk)

Monk 1/Cleric 19.
(religious monk)

Monk 2/Fighter 2/Rogue 16.
(ninja monk)

The second and third builds are by far the most powerful. With a 36 point buy you can actually do decently well without armor.

The first build should keep a high Str, Con, and Wis. You don't need much Dex (10-14 depending on feats).

The second build is obviously wisdom-based. Then maybe Con, then Str. Use armor at low levels, enchanted gauntlets at high.

The third build is Dex, then Con, then Wisdom-based. Putting in two levels of ranger wouldn't hurt, but isn't required either. Have fun with shuriken.
Bard-of-all-trades
06-09-06, 10:04 PM The PHB does not have a 36 point buy either. It stops at 32 point buy.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TrinityPower 06-09-06, 11:39 AM	What would be a good setup for a PHB-Only Monk? I will be using a 36-point buy? Would an inherited template like half dragon be cool to add or would I be losing too much?
Ashlan 06-09-06, 11:52 AM	I would seriously recommend staying away from the Half-Dragon template unless you are starting at a very high level. Consider an ECL 4 Human Monk vs Half Dragon Monk. With the 36 pt buy, a simple stat spread would be 16, 16, 14, 14, 12, 8. Probably one of the 16's would go to Con (though thats not guaranteed as monks are very stat dependant) so at ECL 4, you would be Monk 1 with 12 hp where as the human would be Monk 4 with 24 hp (assuming average rolls after 1st level). You would have +3 AC (+4 Nat vs +1 Dodge from monk lvl) over the human and a +1 to hit (+8 Str vs BAB increase). The Natural Attacks help but you also get the saves and other monk abilities sooner as a human. Having only 12 hp at 4th level means that you will likely get taken down in 1 swing from anything that would be a challenge to a typical ECL 4 character. Ash
solbergb 06-09-06, 01:06 PM	Monks are not a good class for any LA race except possibly a size large race with LA=1 and even that is borderline. Also avoid size small races. Half-elf is the same as human, only with a feat wasted in "elf flavor". Elf trades dex for con, which isn't a good trade on a monk who will use his neck slot for wisdom, not amulet of health. (wood elf is +2 str +2 dex for -2 con, that can work if you spend extra on con) Your best PHB races are dwarf, human and half-orc. Given the paucity of feats in the PHB, human is the weakest choice of the three, unless you want it human for roleplay reasons. With 36 point buy, you can have solid scores in str, wisdom, dex and con. Do not slight ANY of them, but str and wisdom are most important. Something like this for attributes before racial mods is pretty good: str 16, wis 16, dex 15, con 14 int 10 cha 8 (dwarf is 16 con half-orc is 18 str/8 int, both are cha 6...you trade off skills+hitpoints+save bonuse vs raw strength. It is a hard choice. Dwarf is possibly best all-around, with significant defensive advantages that synergize with monk abilities, but half-orc starts you with 18 str, and strength is really good on a build that does flurries/twf/grapple/trip eventually) 15 dex is because you need that for the TWF tree and because if you are enlarged, your dex drops and you'll still want to be able to grapple If you are restricted only to PHB (not even improved natural attack), and stick with monk, a decent feat path goes something like this: You will benefit hugely from oil of shillelagh until about level 9, when your unarmed strike (backed by GMW perhaps) makes it no longer worth an action to use. Until then, the oil gives you effectively a +1 greatsword for both two-handed attacks and flurry attack for the cost of carrying an oak quarterstaff and a 50gp potion. L1 Bonus=stun fist, feat = improved grapple L2 Bonus = combat reflexes L3 feat = power attack L4 statbump to strength. L6 bonus = improved trip, feat = exotic weapon proficiency spike chain (reach weapons help you use combat reflexes and improved trip) L8 statbump to strength L9 feat = twf (TWF isn't very worthwhile when it is -4 or -3 to hit on all yuur attacks. When it is only -2 to hit because of flurry penalties going away, it's better) In this timeframe a monk's capabilities are greatly enhanced if the party wizard, cleric or druid casts greater magic weapon/fang on his "flurry" hand. The off-hand attack will normally be used as a tripping maneuver, probably with a kama. L12 statbump to str, feat = improved TWF (needs ioun stone or gloves+2) (by now your gaunts of ogre power have been swapped for belt of strength) L15 +4 gloves of dex (+6 better) feat = greaterTWF L16 statbump to strength L18 quickdraw L20 statbump to strength. (and get a +5 strength book) You could take TWF earlier, but the penalties are too extreme for my taste (two attacks that hit > three that all miss). Obviously the post level 9 game depends on what items you find or can buy/commission. I am not a fan of the monk belt on a grapple/trip/flurry build, since strength does too much for you. A +4 belt is +2 to hit, +2 damage, +2 trip checks, +2 grapple checks. A monks belt adds at most +1d6 damage and +1 to your armor class, and is about the same cost.
catharz 06-09-06, 03:54 PM	Half-dragons aren't in the PHB, so it seems like a bit of a moot point. Using the PHB only, here are a couple of decent monk builds: Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Monk 16. (martial monk) Monk 1/Cleric 19. (religious monk) Monk 2/Fighter 2/Rogue 16. (ninja monk) The second and third builds are by far the most powerful. With a 36 point buy you can actually do decently well without armor. The first build should keep a high Str, Con, and Wis. You don't need much Dex (10-14 depending on feats). The second build is obviously wisdom-based. Then maybe Con, then Str. Use armor at low levels, enchanted gauntlets at high. The third build is Dex, then Con, then Wisdom-based. Putting in two levels of ranger wouldn't hurt, but isn't required either. Have fun with shuriken.
Bard-of-all-trades 06-09-06, 10:04 PM	The PHB does not have a 36 point buy either. It stops at 32 point buy.