A Poor man's Gish [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Poor man's Gish [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Thalis
07-19-05, 11:53 PM I've noticed that a majority of builds on the CO boards use a lot of books (nothing is wrong with that), but i'm just curious to see what the "most effective" fighter/caster build can be with the least ammount of books. Now just limiting it to core only would be pointless cause everything would be eldritch knight, but see if you can use as few books as possible.

as far as scoring goes, .75 points per BAB (since casters gain BAB too) and 1 point for every caster lvl that affects spells known/spells per day. also subtract 1 point for every book that you use over 2.

and two final points, you must get 4 melee attacks a round w/o TWF and be able to cast lvl 9 spells.

have at it!
MechaboyDos
07-20-05, 12:15 AM Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 3/Eldritch Knight 10

Base Attack: +17, +12.75 points
Caster Level: 17, 9th level Wizard Spells, and since Wizards can learn as many spells as they can find scrolls for at whatever level, I shall count all 17 levels for points, so +17 points.
Books Used: 3 (PHB, DMG, CW), -1 point

Total Points: 28.75

For the win.
Thalis
07-21-05, 11:33 PM Fighter 1/Core Caster 8/Spell Sword 1/Eldritch Knight 10

BAB: +16 * .75 = 12

Caster Lvl: 18 * 1 = 18

Equals = 30

Then subtract 1 for using PHB DMG and CW for a total of 29 points.
Snow Savant
07-22-05, 12:36 AM Poor Man's Gish ... should be retitled Dead Man's Gish.

These builds have one of the highest attrition rates I've ever seen in tournament play and in play here in my NYC locale.

Because very VERY few fully understand the nuances and complexities of playing an organically created 1st level Gish and playing it through its extremely awkward life stages to get to level 20.

Gish builds are not meant at all to be effective "Iconic 4" characters. They have overall party functionality similar to what the Bard provides as a "5th Man", but with vastly difference mechanics.

Playing Gish as you described, with minimal content from non-core books, is even harder. Because your core Ftr/Wiz/SS/EK build has even less options, and even less party-friendly synergy. It's a "selfish" build. Relying on using a vast majority of its build resources just to stay viable and, well ... alive. Unlike a trad arcanist who can be both offensively dangerous as well as providing the party with buffs, divinations, and utility magicks.

Good luck playing your Gish. :)
20goingon1232
07-22-05, 12:44 AM For Gish's, I tend to favour a Tiefling Wiz5/EldKn10/Arch4 myself (since I only use Core rules). Makes a decent archer and CL18 wizard. I play it like a straight Wizard, though.
Tedly224
07-22-05, 01:54 AM The post above me with the Arcane Archer mixed in using few books looks really good. Especially if you're looking to use a variety of odd area effect spells in creative ways.

My personal favorite now would be Warrior type your choice 1/Wizard 5/Knight Phantom 10/Sacred Exorcist 4.

BAB 16 total, warrior type hit die at first level, 5d4 from wizard, and a nifty 14d8 hit dice for all of the rest. You also pick up Light Armor use early from Knight Phantom, some okay special abilities from both Knight Phantom and Sacred Exorcist. And 18 total caster levels remain yours.

Total books used - core, complete divine, and technically the the Knight Phantom can be found right here off of the website as a preview from the 5 Nations book.

If the setting is not Eberron specific, then yeah, I guess my choice would be to sub out Knight Phantom for Eldritch Knight and live with the lower hit dice and make that bonus feat count.
Sang-Drax
07-22-05, 08:17 AM You can always take Improved Toughness as your EK1 bonus feat. You'll have more hps than taking Knight Phantom.

I disagree with Snow. Playing core-only (which, all right, is not exactly the case) is when the Gish really shines. This is due to the lack of wizard PrC's that would make your fellow wizards much better than you in sellcasting (Incantatrix, Iot7FV, etc). As such, one should focus on spellcasting rather than melee, as in Fig2/Wiz8/EK10.

If ou're not playing core, I guess the best option is Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 3/Eldritch Knight 7/Sacred Exorcist 4. Divine Grace + Divine Might is just awesome for this build.

Nothing's better than Bard 7/Soldier of Light 2/Sublime Chord 2/Knight Phantom 9, though (take your 1st KP level prior to SC). You have Cha to hit (Snowflake Wardance), dmg (Divine Might), BAB +17, 9th level spells, bardic music (inspire courage up to 8th level with the right instrument), and good skills for half of your career.
monkeycaster
07-22-05, 12:41 PM Fighter1
Dragonslayer 3
Wizard 6
EK 10

(Not in that order, of course)

17 * .75 = 12.75
CL 17 = 17

29.75 - 1 = 28.75

On the whole, I aggree with Snow Savant. Gish are very difficult to play level for level. You can't play them the way you play fighters, casters, or bards.

But They are very fun to play, and work well, even in tournament play, if the player knows what they are doing.

But a smart player can win tournaments playing a commoner.
Whiskey Jack
07-22-05, 01:50 PM Not up to the usual standards here, but I'm having a lot of luck with a Dwarven Battle Sorcerer (UA variant class) using the Stoneborn Sorcery feat (OGL from Hammer & Helm. Sets Con as your primary spellcasting feat, prohibits the use of Enchantment spells). Other than that, and the Fist of Stone spell out of Complete Arcane, he's straight core books for his feats and other spells.

It's a nice combination, actually. The high con stacks for HP and spells, with the dwarven bonus. Plus Battle Sorcerers get their choice of one one-handed martial weapon proficiency, and the Dwarven Battle Axe is, conveniently enough, a one-handed martial weapon for Dwarves. He has no spell failure in light armor, and has buff spells that can up his AC.
He's not a tank, but he is a good clean-up man, and has proven fairly versitile so far.
Kurama Youko
07-22-05, 03:17 PM Ahem..
Battle Sorcerer from lv 1-20. BAB = to Cleric, Hit Dice = Cleric, Skill = Sorcerer except Intimidate replaces Bluff. Can cast in light armor without Arcane Spell Failure.

This example uses a Human as the Base race.

First Items of note. Mithril Breastplate, its light armor with a good AC, and allows for a +5 Dex modifier only has a -2 to armor check penalty. (I think that gets even lower once you enchant it, dont quote me on that though.) Allows for Max Speed, only weighs 15 pounds.

Weapon Special abilities. Spell Storing, very good pick for special abilities to add to your weapon, it changes the spells area so that it only effects the person to you trigger the stored spell on. So Fireball all of a sudden now only hits on individual and not you. Can store 3rd lv spells and under.
Spell Absorb, this one is alot more trickier to use effectively than Spell Storing but is a okay choice sometimes. It requires you one to not stay grouped as much, by this i mean standing close to your allies, you pretty much have to be in a situation where the DM's npc spellcaster has to target you specifically with the spell that you have this weapon absorb. I generally go with either Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic. Note that neither of those two spells have to being targetting you because RAW Spell Absorb only works when you've been targetted by the chosen spell but those two spells can be area effect. Mage Bane, I know it sounds crazy but its really a awesome ability, that usually effects everyone because everyone at higher levels usually has some kind of spellcasting or spell-like abilities, divine or arcane.

Feat Suggestions:
(B) Any Bloodline from Dragon 311 or 325.
1 Draconic Heritage or Dreadful Wrath (If your in Faerun)
3 Draconic Breath
6 Frightful Presence (if you dont have Dreadful Wrath)
9 Arcane Strike
12 Still Spell
15 Silent Spell
18 Improved Toughness

Spell Suggestions: These are totally suggestions not die hard must haves.

Wings of Air, Grease, Draconic Polymorph, Flight of Dragons, Celestial Brilliance, Greater Dispel Magic, Shades, Shapechange, Greater Shadow Evocation, Enervation, Dimension Door, Greater Magic Weapon, Vampiric Touch, Shield, Polymorph any Object and Reality Maelstrom.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thalis 07-19-05, 11:53 PM	I've noticed that a majority of builds on the CO boards use a lot of books (nothing is wrong with that), but i'm just curious to see what the "most effective" fighter/caster build can be with the least ammount of books. Now just limiting it to core only would be pointless cause everything would be eldritch knight, but see if you can use as few books as possible. as far as scoring goes, .75 points per BAB (since casters gain BAB too) and 1 point for every caster lvl that affects spells known/spells per day. also subtract 1 point for every book that you use over 2. and two final points, you must get 4 melee attacks a round w/o TWF and be able to cast lvl 9 spells. have at it!
MechaboyDos 07-20-05, 12:15 AM	Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 3/Eldritch Knight 10 Base Attack: +17, +12.75 points Caster Level: 17, 9th level Wizard Spells, and since Wizards can learn as many spells as they can find scrolls for at whatever level, I shall count all 17 levels for points, so +17 points. Books Used: 3 (PHB, DMG, CW), -1 point Total Points: 28.75 For the win.
Thalis 07-21-05, 11:33 PM	Fighter 1/Core Caster 8/Spell Sword 1/Eldritch Knight 10 BAB: +16 * .75 = 12 Caster Lvl: 18 * 1 = 18 Equals = 30 Then subtract 1 for using PHB DMG and CW for a total of 29 points.
Snow Savant 07-22-05, 12:36 AM	Poor Man's Gish ... should be retitled Dead Man's Gish. These builds have one of the highest attrition rates I've ever seen in tournament play and in play here in my NYC locale. Because very VERY few fully understand the nuances and complexities of playing an organically created 1st level Gish and playing it through its extremely awkward life stages to get to level 20. Gish builds are not meant at all to be effective "Iconic 4" characters. They have overall party functionality similar to what the Bard provides as a "5th Man", but with vastly difference mechanics. Playing Gish as you described, with minimal content from non-core books, is even harder. Because your core Ftr/Wiz/SS/EK build has even less options, and even less party-friendly synergy. It's a "selfish" build. Relying on using a vast majority of its build resources just to stay viable and, well ... alive. Unlike a trad arcanist who can be both offensively dangerous as well as providing the party with buffs, divinations, and utility magicks. Good luck playing your Gish. :)
20goingon1232 07-22-05, 12:44 AM	For Gish's, I tend to favour a Tiefling Wiz5/EldKn10/Arch4 myself (since I only use Core rules). Makes a decent archer and CL18 wizard. I play it like a straight Wizard, though.
Tedly224 07-22-05, 01:54 AM	The post above me with the Arcane Archer mixed in using few books looks really good. Especially if you're looking to use a variety of odd area effect spells in creative ways. My personal favorite now would be Warrior type your choice 1/Wizard 5/Knight Phantom 10/Sacred Exorcist 4. BAB 16 total, warrior type hit die at first level, 5d4 from wizard, and a nifty 14d8 hit dice for all of the rest. You also pick up Light Armor use early from Knight Phantom, some okay special abilities from both Knight Phantom and Sacred Exorcist. And 18 total caster levels remain yours. Total books used - core, complete divine, and technically the the Knight Phantom can be found right here off of the website as a preview from the 5 Nations book. If the setting is not Eberron specific, then yeah, I guess my choice would be to sub out Knight Phantom for Eldritch Knight and live with the lower hit dice and make that bonus feat count.
Sang-Drax 07-22-05, 08:17 AM	You can always take Improved Toughness as your EK1 bonus feat. You'll have more hps than taking Knight Phantom. I disagree with Snow. Playing core-only (which, all right, is not exactly the case) is when the Gish really shines. This is due to the lack of wizard PrC's that would make your fellow wizards much better than you in sellcasting (Incantatrix, Iot7FV, etc). As such, one should focus on spellcasting rather than melee, as in Fig2/Wiz8/EK10. If ou're not playing core, I guess the best option is Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 3/Eldritch Knight 7/Sacred Exorcist 4. Divine Grace + Divine Might is just awesome for this build. Nothing's better than Bard 7/Soldier of Light 2/Sublime Chord 2/Knight Phantom 9, though (take your 1st KP level prior to SC). You have Cha to hit (Snowflake Wardance), dmg (Divine Might), BAB +17, 9th level spells, bardic music (inspire courage up to 8th level with the right instrument), and good skills for half of your career.
monkeycaster 07-22-05, 12:41 PM	Fighter1 Dragonslayer 3 Wizard 6 EK 10 (Not in that order, of course) 17 * .75 = 12.75 CL 17 = 17 29.75 - 1 = 28.75 On the whole, I aggree with Snow Savant. Gish are very difficult to play level for level. You can't play them the way you play fighters, casters, or bards. But They are very fun to play, and work well, even in tournament play, if the player knows what they are doing. But a smart player can win tournaments playing a commoner.
Whiskey Jack 07-22-05, 01:50 PM	Not up to the usual standards here, but I'm having a lot of luck with a Dwarven Battle Sorcerer (UA variant class) using the Stoneborn Sorcery feat (OGL from Hammer & Helm. Sets Con as your primary spellcasting feat, prohibits the use of Enchantment spells). Other than that, and the Fist of Stone spell out of Complete Arcane, he's straight core books for his feats and other spells. It's a nice combination, actually. The high con stacks for HP and spells, with the dwarven bonus. Plus Battle Sorcerers get their choice of one one-handed martial weapon proficiency, and the Dwarven Battle Axe is, conveniently enough, a one-handed martial weapon for Dwarves. He has no spell failure in light armor, and has buff spells that can up his AC. He's not a tank, but he is a good clean-up man, and has proven fairly versitile so far.
Kurama Youko 07-22-05, 03:17 PM	Ahem.. Battle Sorcerer from lv 1-20. BAB = to Cleric, Hit Dice = Cleric, Skill = Sorcerer except Intimidate replaces Bluff. Can cast in light armor without Arcane Spell Failure. This example uses a Human as the Base race. First Items of note. Mithril Breastplate, its light armor with a good AC, and allows for a +5 Dex modifier only has a -2 to armor check penalty. (I think that gets even lower once you enchant it, dont quote me on that though.) Allows for Max Speed, only weighs 15 pounds. Weapon Special abilities. Spell Storing, very good pick for special abilities to add to your weapon, it changes the spells area so that it only effects the person to you trigger the stored spell on. So Fireball all of a sudden now only hits on individual and not you. Can store 3rd lv spells and under. Spell Absorb, this one is alot more trickier to use effectively than Spell Storing but is a okay choice sometimes. It requires you one to not stay grouped as much, by this i mean standing close to your allies, you pretty much have to be in a situation where the DM's npc spellcaster has to target you specifically with the spell that you have this weapon absorb. I generally go with either Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic. Note that neither of those two spells have to being targetting you because RAW Spell Absorb only works when you've been targetted by the chosen spell but those two spells can be area effect. Mage Bane, I know it sounds crazy but its really a awesome ability, that usually effects everyone because everyone at higher levels usually has some kind of spellcasting or spell-like abilities, divine or arcane. Feat Suggestions: (B) Any Bloodline from Dragon 311 or 325. 1 Draconic Heritage or Dreadful Wrath (If your in Faerun) 3 Draconic Breath 6 Frightful Presence (if you dont have Dreadful Wrath) 9 Arcane Strike 12 Still Spell 15 Silent Spell 18 Improved Toughness Spell Suggestions: These are totally suggestions not die hard must haves. Wings of Air, Grease, Draconic Polymorph, Flight of Dragons, Celestial Brilliance, Greater Dispel Magic, Shades, Shapechange, Greater Shadow Evocation, Enervation, Dimension Door, Greater Magic Weapon, Vampiric Touch, Shield, Polymorph any Object and Reality Maelstrom.