Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Paul S 07-25-03, 04:07 AM	Hi, folks. I'm posting this here because this is just about the crunchiest board on the forum, and I can't think of a better place to help me shake out the bugs in what I hope will be the long-awaited fix to the sorcerer class. Frank and I worked this out - it was Frank's idea, and I hammered out the implementation with Frank's input. A little background on our thinking will set the stage, then on to the crunchy stuff. Everyone knows that the sorcerer has problems. The spontaneous casting schtick is a really cool flavor thing, and mechanically interesting. WotC has always considered this a very powerful ability, and in exchange for that and his high spells-per-day the sorcerer is balanced by severely restricting the spell selection from which he can draw. The problem is that this doesn't work. In actual play running out of spells isn't usually a problem - and it's even less so at mid-to-high levels, when wizards can use teleport and rope trick to refresh themselves almost at will. Not only that, but the specialist wizard has even more spells than the sorcerer in some cases. So the sorcerer's high spells per day don't work out to be all that great an advantage, and his ability to cast spontaneously is hamstrung by his sharply limited range of spells. The net result is that the sorcerer is consistently seen as underpowered and not a lot of fun to play by many. It's time for a radically different strategy. What Frank and I are proposing is to turn the sorcerer on his head: limit the number of spells per day severely while giving the sorcerer spontaneous access to all spells on the Sor/Wiz core list. (subject to caster level limits, of course) This idea formed the core of the class you're about to see. We added a few CHA-based class skills because the sorcerer is sorely lacking in these, worked out the spells per day at each level, and what we got looked like this: TROLLMAN/SULIIN SORCERER Alignment: Any. Hit Die: d4. Class Skills The sorcerer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha). See Chapter 4: Skills for skill descriptions. Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) x4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier Level...BAB....Fort ....Ref ....Will ..Special......0......1st......2nd...... 3rd......4th......5th......6th......7th. .....8th......9th 1st......+0......+0......+0......+2..Sum mon ......3......0......—......—......—..... .—......—......—......—......— 2nd.....+1......+0......+0......+3..fami liar........4......1......—......—...... —......—......—......—......—......— 3rd......+1......+1......+1......+3..... .............4......1......0......—..... .—......—......—......—......—......— 4th......+2......+1......+1......+4..... .............4......2......1......—..... .—......—......—......—......—......— 5th......+2......+1......+1......+4..... .............4......2......1......0..... .—......—......—......—......—......— 6th......+3......+2......+2......+5..... .............4......2......2......1..... .—......—......—......—......—......— 7th......+3......+2......+2......+5..... .............4......2......2......1..... .0......—......—......—......—......— 8th......+4......+2......+2......+6..... .............4......2......2......2..... .1......—......—......—......—......— 9th......+4......+3......+3......+6..... .............4......2......2......2..... .1......0......—......—......—......— 10th....+5......+3......+3......+7...... ............4......2......2......2...... 2......1......—......—......—......— 11th....+5......+3......+3......+7...... ............4......2......2......2...... 2......1......0......—......—......— 12th....+6/+1...+4......+4......+8................. .4......2......2......2......2......2... ...1......—......—......— 13th....+6/+1...+4......+4......+8................. .4......3......2......2......2......2... ...1......0......—......— 14th....+7/+2...+4......+4......+9................. .4......3......3......2......2......2... ...2......1......—......— 15th....+7/+2...+5......+5......+9................. .4......3......3......3......2......2... ...2......1......0......— 16th....+8/+3...+5......+5......+10................ ..4......3......3......3......3......2.. ....2......2......1......— 17th....+8/+3...+5......+5......+10................ ..4......3......3......3......3......3.. ....2......2......1......0 18th....+9/+4...+6......+6......+11................ ..4......3......3......3......3......3.. ....3......2......2......1 19th....+9/+4...+6......+6......+11................ ..4......3......3......3......3......3.. ....3......3......2......2 20th....+10/+5...+6......+6......+12................ ..4......3......3......3......3......3.. ....3......3......3......3 Class Features All of the following are class features of the sorcerer. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Sorcerers are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a sorcerer’s gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail. Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he has access to without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below). To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcerer’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier. Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells he’ll cast. Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Trollman-Suliin Sorcerer. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score. Nevertheless the sorcerer has the fewest spells per day of any spellcasting class. He makes up for this with his spell selection: thanks to his intuitive connection to magic, a sorcerer can choose spontaneously from any spell on the core Wizard/Sorcerer list, so long as he has a spell slot of that level (or any higher level, if he wishes to use a higher slot) available to cast it. A given sorcerer can add non-core spells to his spontaneous casting list by spell research, just as a wizard does, but using Charisma to modify the Spellcraft check instead of intelligence. Familiar: A sorcerer can obtain a familiar. Doing so takes 24 hours and uses up magical materials that cost 100 gp. A familiar is a magical beast that resembles a small animal and is unusually tough and intelligent. The creature serves as a companion and servant. The sorcerer chooses the kind of familiar he gets. As the sorcerer advances in level, his familiar also increases in power. If the familiar dies or is dismissed by the sorcerer, the sorcerer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude saving throw. Failure means he loses 200 experience points per sorcerer level; success reduces the loss to one-half that amount. However, a sorcerer’s experience point total can never go below 0 as the result of a familiar’s demise or dismissal. A slain or dismissed familiar cannot be replaced for a year and day. A slain familiar can be raised from the dead just as a character can be, and it does not lose a level or a Constitution point when this happy event occurs. A character with more than one class that grants a familiar may have only one familiar at a time. Design Questions [list=1] Is the "0" for each new spell level appropriate? We considered making it 1 to start, but this may overbalance the class at 1st level, giving as many spells as the wizard while still giving it the super-spontaneous casting. OTOH the 0 might make it underpowered at every level above 1, which would be worse. So feedback on this point would be much appreciated. The version of spontaneous casting that this class is based on has the potential to be very powerful. By being able to pick the right spell for any occasion, the sorcerer has the potential to dominate any single encounter. But he can't do it very often, and he can't do it for very long. If his first few spells don't resolve the situation he's in trouble. How do you foresee this working out in practice? Is it underpowered, overpowered, just plain nuts? CAN YOU BREAK THIS CLASS??? Are there any major glitches you can see that would ruin the class at any given level of play? How does it balance against other primary caster classes? [/list=1] Please, take a look at this, play with it, playtest it if you like. And let us know here what you think. Thanks! --Paul (and Frank, even though he can't be here in person)
Funny Slaughter 07-25-03, 04:17 AM	i do not like the casting method. it is very powerful to be able to chose a spell on the fly on the one hand. and it is crippling to have only these few spellslots. imo its a totally different class and drives a long way from the "original" sorcerer. if you want to be able to draw any spell you like i see the spellpool of the MotAO or the guild-wizard to be the approbiate choice. i like the way the "normal" sorcerer works, i think one could give him some tweaking like eschew materials for free and maybe a d6 hitdice, and something to make it worthy to progress in the class. i like the idea for example that a sorcerer is able to cast metamagicked spells of a certain cost without the need for a fullround, i.e. extend etc. at lvl 5, empower etc. at 10 and finally quicken etc. at 20 (one level-increase of metamagic per 5 classlevels) your class is just something really different and i can not say wether it would unbalance a campaign or not. i would say it would, and i can not imagine people to have more fun with this class because you really run out of spells very fast. gs Funny
Sakris 07-25-03, 05:22 AM	The sorceror is very powerful as a "blaster" kind of mage . Your proposed class is totally different, a kind of utility-bag of tricks guy, alway knowing the right answer, but not as strong in combat. I would really like to play that kind of mage for a change. Plusss i hate memorizing. How do MotAO or the guild-wizard work?
Sisyfos 07-25-03, 05:42 AM	Originally posted by Sakris The sorceror is very powerful as a "blaster" kind of mage . Your proposed class is totally different, a kind of utility-bag of tricks guy, alway knowing the right answer, but not as strong in combat. I would really like to play that kind of mage for a change. Plusss i hate memorizing. How do MotAO or the guild-wizard work? Mage of the Arcane Order is the answer to sorcerer's problems. It eats up two feats though: you lose one to cooperative spell (useless feat) and one to arcane preparation (well it allows you to prepare metamagic spells so its not that useless). You also need to take one more metamagic but you can just pick something that you actually need so its not a problem. MotAO also has some skill requirements, which the sorc will find surprisingly hard to fulfil. Plan your way past them... perhaps arcane devotee would work?
KotJC_Enigma42 07-25-03, 07:15 AM	in reference to MotAO: (raises an eyebrow) while I agree about Arcane Preparation and Cooperative spell, Knowledge(Arcana) is the ONLY knowledge skill that the sorceror can actually meet without taking a feat (within reasonable time that is) Also, this is the only arcane PrC that I can think of that the Sorc can access at the same time as the Wiz. Back on topic: I think that the alternate sorc class might be unbalancing, as it provides the best of both Divine and Arcane magic. It provides the full spell list (only Divine magic) but allows complete spontaneous casting. Might be a bit overpowering. Perhaps adding in a new mechanic while leaving the class otherwise unchanged? Somethign Like... If the sorcerer has not learned a spell, he may attempt to spontaneously learn the spell for a short time, through sheer force of will. The sorcerer makes a charisma check, where the Difficulty Class is 10 + the spell level of the spell he wishes to cast. If the sorcerer succeeds at this check, then he can cast the spell as if he had learned if for 1 minute per sorcerer level. If the sorcerer beats the DC by 10 or more, this check is a free action. If he beats it by 5 or more, but not 10 or more, the check is a move action. Otherwise this check is a full round action. The sorcerer can not take 10 or 20 on this check. Somethign like this would allow a powerful sorcerer (gauged by his modifier for his primary casting stat) to cast spells he hasn't practicecd (one of his spells known) with a little concentration, but not complete guarantee for success. Perhaps another limiting factor would need to be added... pehaps: A sorcerer may not attempt to spontaneously learn a spell he has never seen nor heard of takes quite a bit of DM interference (does my Sorcerer know about legend lore) but limits it a bit...
not-a-ninja 07-25-03, 09:56 AM	i agree with funny... when i run my next game, sorcerer's will be done as monte cook suggests in his book of eldritch might 2. they will receive a d6 hit die, 4 skill points with some extra cha related skills, and the ability to cast all of their spell without materials or foci. the method he suggests is great, where expensive materials are paid for with xp at a rate of 1/25th their gp price. so identify is 4xp to cast. it's sweet. word.
Balthanon 07-25-03, 10:35 AM	Originally posted by Paul S The problem is that this doesn't work. In actual play running out of spells isn't usually a problem - and it's even less so at mid-to-high levels, when wizards can use teleport and rope trick to refresh themselves almost at will. Not only that, but the specialist wizard has even more spells than the sorcerer in some cases. So the sorcerer's high spells per day don't work out to be all that great an advantage, and his ability to cast spontaneously is hamstrung by his sharply limited range of spells. The net result is that the sorcerer is consistently seen as underpowered and not a lot of fun to play by many. It's time for a radically different strategy. What Frank and I are proposing is to turn the sorcerer on his head: limit the number of spells per day severely while giving the sorcerer spontaneous access to all spells on the Sor/Wiz core list. (subject to caster level limits, of course) So. In return for having exactly one spell less per day than a straight wizard at most spell levels, a sorcerer has automatic access to every sorcerer/wizard spell extent, and furthermore can cast them spontaneously, so there's almost never a chance he won't have the right spell for any situation. This is radical all right, but I wouldn't say that it's balanced. A wizard would have to spend probably along the lines of a couple hundred thousand gold or more for access to every single sorcerer/wizard spell and would have to be toting around a library of spellbooks to manage it. Furthermore, no wizard is guaranteed to have the right spell at the right time, even if he does know it, without at least a 15 minute wait, and that's assuming he left some spell slots free. Frankly, I've never seen the sorcerer as being underpowered as he currently is, he just has a different focus from the wizard. If the sorcerer needs a means of casting spells he doesn't have other than scrolls, wands, and staves, it shouldn't be something that gives him instantaneous access to every spell on the sorcerer/wizard list. I think what I would suggest doing is actually giving the sorcerer access to various lesser/greater/etc. anyspells from Forgotten Realms. This way, if he wants to know a spell off of his spells known, he has to use up a higher spell level to cast it, use up one of his spells known slots, and he has to prepare it ahead of time (I might also consider somehow attempting to limit it to 1 per spell level). Further, he has to go through the same expenses as the wizard in order to get these extra spells. I think that would be a bit more fair myself.
Funny Slaughter 07-25-03, 12:34 PM	Frankly, I've never seen the sorcerer as being underpowered as he currently is i think there is a simple benchmark: there are people around here that think a wizard20 is not bad. i am one of them. you can be more powerful with a PrC, but sometimes only slightly. five (scribe scroll included) bonus-feats and the familar are a good point to stay core. except the familiar there is just no single reason to stay core sorcerer. every single PrC with full caster progression is better. because they get something. it does not matter what it is, its always better the nothing. a sorcerer can spontaneously cast spells. why does he have to carry material components around? a wizard prepares his spells and goes shopping, a sorcerer is, in my opinion, more the guy who walks through the park and thinks about "hey, good time for a fireball" and there he go. the changes monte suggest are not game-breaking. a better HD does not change much, as do some more skills. (i am not sure if i would grant the skills) the sorcerer needs something that makes him worth to take over level 6. gs Funny
Paul S 07-25-03, 12:41 PM	Originally posted by Funny Slaughter i do not like the casting method. it is very powerful to be able to chose a spell on the fly on the one hand. and it is crippling to have only these few spellslots. imo its a totally different class and drives a long way from the "original" sorcerer.Yes, it is a long way from the original sorcerer. That was intentional, because the original sorcerer is the most famous also-ran in the game. (Bards are derided as weaker, but only because the sorcerer is always only one step behind the wizard rather than two.) I agree that this sorcerer's power is boosted by his spell selection, and reduced by his spells per day. That too is intentional, as a balance issue. The idea is that if you can draw on almost any spell in the game you don't need as many slots. This sorcerer is intended to be played in a dramatically different fashion than the wizard - rather than blasting away with a plethora of spells, the sorcerer applies his spells surgically: choosing the ideal spell for a particular circumstance but applying only one or two spells to any given problem. if you want to be able to draw any spell you like i see the spellpool of the MotAO or the guild-wizard to be the approbiate choice.Others have pointed out the mechanical drawbacks to MotAO: chews up feat slots, skills are difficult for the sorcerer to qualify for. There are also story and campaign drawbacks: not every campaign wants, needs, or should have an "Arcane Order." Like all prestige classes, MotAO is and should be campaign-specific. In contrast the core classes are meant to be used in all campaigns. So I think relying on any prestige class to fix the flaws in a core class is a fundamentally misguided strategy. i like the way the "normal" sorcerer works, i think one could give him some tweaking like eschew materials for free and maybe a d6 hitdice, and something to make it worthy to progress in the class.That's one approach. Monte Cook tried something like that. Actually several people have tried something like that, but so far it hasn't caught on. I'm hoping that folks will playtest this version and see how it plays rather than dismissing the concept out of hand. Best, --Paul
Paul S 07-25-03, 12:55 PM	Originally posted by Sakris The sorceror is very powerful as a "blaster" kind of mage . Your proposed class is totally different, a kind of utility-bag of tricks guy, alway knowing the right answer, but not as strong in combat. Exactly. The WotC sorcerer is a combat mage. He's designed to do one or two things over and over and over again. Most people run him as a blaster, with lots of evocation or conjuration spells. The main problem with this, besides the fact that it gets a little dull, is the fact that an actual evoker or conjurer is likely to be better at it. A specialist wizard usually has as many or even more spells than the sorcerer at the top two spells levels in his arsenal, and those are the spells that really count in combat, where DCs and damage are crucial. So the thing that the sorcerer does best is still overshadowed by wizards. Frank and I are proposing that the sorcerer stop competing with wizards and seek a different niche. The Wizard is the Terminator. Our sorcerer is MacGyver, pulling intuitive solutions to problems out of his bag of tricks. He's a rapier, the wizard is a greatsword. Personally, I love the idea (but you'd expect I would, right?). I think the sorcerer has always been a second-class wizard that people have always tried to make shine by doing just what any wizard could do if he was built right. I think the sorcerer comes into his own only when he's given abilities and niche in the game that the wizard hasn't already claimed. Best, --Paul
catharz 07-25-03, 01:19 PM	People have debated the sorceror power thing over and over again. Many people still play sorcerors as a powerful option, and I imagine that if they werent, everyone who wanted spontanious casting would play a bard. Sorcerors get a big benefit from multi-use spells. The reason shadow adept has been a favorite for sorcerors is Spells like 'Shades' and 'Shadow Evocation.' That chain of spells just got a huge boost with 3.5. These spells are almost as much of a benefit to wizards, as they allows 'spontanious casting.' By using wands and scrolls for the less commonly used spells, a sorceror can have just as much versatility. All of this has allready been stated before. Ultimately, the main thing to do is just take a PrC. If you want more spells known and fewer per day, take Eldritch Master. I have wanted to play a character muuch like the one described in the first post. That is the character in my sig. Using existing classes/prestige classes (and quite a bit of strange PrC-related rules), I came up with a character who casts spells as follows at level 22: 1:2, 2:2, 3:2, 4:1, 5:1, 6:1, 7:1, 8:1, plus bonus spells from high charisma. His caster level is 20, and he knows *all spells* from the fiendslayer, cleric, and wizard spell lists. He was somewhat under-powered, but the versatility was amazing. While it might make sense to make it easyer for a character to advance like that (rather than going Ex-paladin->tainted->dropping the paladin level to fiend slayer, and draining away tainted), Anything more is probably overpowered. You should provide at least *some* limit on the # of spells known, and greater number known should probably be balanced out by gaining access to higher level spells later. Hopefully that dosen't sound too much like me preaching from on high, its all just my opinion =P
youspoonybard 07-25-03, 01:31 PM	It's easy to meet the MotAO skill requirements, and you eventually get the 2 metamagics back.
Paul S 07-25-03, 01:31 PM	Originally posted by catharz Sorcerors get a big benefit from multi-use spells. The reason shadow adept has been a favorite for sorcerors is Spells like 'Shades' and 'Shadow Evocation.' That chain of spells just got a huge boost with 3.5. I'm surprised to hear you say that. Most of the spells in this chain have been increased in level and the conjuration spells can no longer simulate callings. How is this a boost? In addition, most of the versatile multipurpose spells have been split up into sub-spells, which pretty much kills their utility for the sorcerer. It's possible to houserule them back, but I think these problems and many more can be better handled by changing the sorcerer. Ultimately, the main thing to do is just take a PrC. If you want more spells known and fewer per day, take Eldritch Master.As I've said, I think it's a mistake to rely on prestige classes to "fix" a core class. The core classes should work well as written. I have wanted to play a character muuch like the one described in the first post. Then do so! Please! (I wanna hear how it works in play. :cool: ) --Paul
kalniel 07-25-03, 01:45 PM	The arcane order is very powerful, but if you look at the description it seems incredibly hard to justify in a lot of campaigns. I just couldn't choose it for my sorc. I could, however, get incantatrix which is quite cool. Sorcerers are great fun. Aside from blasting have you thought about illusions? With a careful spell selection (took me a couple of weeks) sorcerers can be extemely versitle as is, and hey, they're really fun to play with much less bookkeeping than a wizard! The build posted is interesting. Kind of similar to a DM I know who did something similar with the cleric class. I think it's probably a bit powerful, as I feel spell selection for a sorcerer is the main thing. Don't forget a wizard still has to go and find sources of spells in the first place - this can be a quest on it's own. Does your sorcerer have to have familiarity with a spell or have it in a spellbook before he can cast it? Or like a cleric does he just gain access to everyspell as soon as it's available?
Balthanon 07-25-03, 02:12 PM	Originally posted by Funny Slaughter the changes monte suggest are not game-breaking. a better HD does not change much, as do some more skills. (i am not sure if i would grant the skills) the sorcerer needs something that makes him worth to take over level 6. gs Funny I did like your idea of adding in feats like eschew material at various levels. Perhaps if the sorcerer got some of the less powerful feats that are tied in with making spells more, well, spontaneous? I could see allowing him say Eschew Materials at 3 or 5, then still spell, then silent spell, and possibly one or two others (thematic spell?) 5 or so levels after each previous one. If you allowed him to use the metamagic feats he gets as class features without a full round action (but only if he gets them as class features), this could make the sorcerer a lot more interesting to play as a straight core class. Possibly Sor1-Thematic Spell, Sor3-Eschew Materials, Sor7-Silent Spell, Sor11-Still Spell, then at Sor 15 he can apply Silent Spell without using a higher spell slot and at Sor 19 he can apply Still Spell without using a higher spell slot? The last I'm not sure about, because it effectively removes arcane spell failure for sorcerers, which would almost definitely be too much. Perhaps Quicken Spell once or twice per day for free instead. I would probably drop the familiar from the sorcerer if this was used as well. Hmm, or maybe alter it slightly. To be a sorcerer, you have to have a familiar, but instead of giving you bonuses, it gives you a penalty to one stat and is a minor fiend/ celestial/ elemental/ slaad/ etc... of some sort that needs to be pleased (based on alignment or something else). Have it be relatively easy to replace with a new one if it leaves, something taking say a week or so, but when you don't have one, you can't cast your highest level or two of spells.
Paul S 07-25-03, 04:29 PM	Originally posted by kalniel The arcane order is very powerful, but if you look at the description it seems incredibly hard to justify in a lot of campaigns. Agreed. Besides the whole idea of saying that a core class is all right if it can be "fixed" with a PrC, this is one of my main reasons for disliking the MotAO as a solution for the sorcerer. Does your sorcerer have to have familiarity with a spell or have it in a spellbook before he can cast it? Or like a cleric does he just gain access to everyspell as soon as it's available? He has automatic access to every Sor/Wiz spell in the PHB that's of a level he can cast. I take the PHB as the "baseline magic" of the game world, which the sorcerer taps into intuitively. Non-core spells, whether new inventions or splatbooks, have to be researched by the sorcerer using Spellcraft. He can't even learn spells from scrolls or books the way wizards can, because the regular forms don't grant him the intuitive grasp he needs. Once he learns a spell though he can cast it spontaneously just like a core spell. --Paul
Funny Slaughter 07-25-03, 07:51 PM	paul: playtest this version and see how it plays rather than dismissing the concept out of hand. hey, thats not fair. you did not ask for playtesters, you wanted criticism. take it. :rolleyes: spontaneus casting is very powerful, and i think your mechanic of allowing every spell in the game is way too powerful, thats nothing a lower number of spells per day can balance. Besides the whole idea of saying that a core class is all right if it can be "fixed" with a PrC i did never say this. and i did not see anybody else write this. you are the one that implies that "fixing the sorcerer" and "giving it spontaneus casting of every spell" are the same thing. MotAO gives a good-working mechanic for this. if you want you can rework it, without any guilds or stuff. you wanted critic, you got it. my one is that your class is not balanced. that i dont like your concept is another thing. to announce your, interesting, i have to say this, idea as a general fix for the sorcerer is way too much. i can see an interesting new core-class, but you need to balance it new, and at least its more like a PrC since your main-feature is hard to take as it is. Balthanon: Great ideas. adding metamagic that can be used without a fullround is great. i think both ideas are viable, adding bonus-feats that can be used that way, or adding the ability to use metamagic of a certain power without a fullround. changing the familar etc. is too much imo, i think some slightly increases within the levels are enough. level 7, 11, 15. imo that are some good levels, maybe just add another free feat at 20 to get some people stay until there without a PrC. gs Funny
Paul S 07-25-03, 09:09 PM	Originally posted by Funny Slaughter hey, thats not fair. you did not ask for playtesters, you wanted criticism. take it. :rolleyes:Actually I asked for playtesting right off the bat, but perhaps you got in a hurry to reply and missed it. From my original message: Please, take a look at this, play with it, playtest it if you like. And let us know here what you think.(emphasis added) you are the one that implies that "fixing the sorcerer" and "giving it spontaneus casting of every spell" are the same thing. MotAO gives a good-working mechanic for this. if you want you can rework it, without any guilds or stuff.The Mage of the Arcane Order minus the arcane order, eh? Well, given that you'd then have to rename it as something like, perhaps "sorcerer", and if you wanted to make it a core class you'd have to balance it by removing an ability or two and reducing the spells per day...If you did all that you'd get something remarkably like the T-S sorcerer. It wouldn't be a PrC any more though. If we agree that the sorcerer needs fixing (if we don't agree on that then there's not much sense in having this conversation), then increasing his spontaneous casting ability is one legitimate way to fix it. However, no matter what method one chooses, relying on a PrC to do it is a bad strategy. This is so for the reasons I've already mentioned, and also because [weak class + PrC] is always going to be a poorer choice than [balanced class +PrC], so it doesn't really fix anything. So, whether you intended to recommend fixing the sorcerer with a PrC or not, that's what your recommendation adds up to in this context. And it's not a good idea. --Paul
Oberoni 07-26-03, 12:30 AM	It's an interesting idea. Considering the hide-and-recharge methods you mentioned earlier in the very first post (Rope Trick, Teleport, even Mansion), do you even consider the relatively small number of spells per day a true limitation? Why so?
Paul S 07-26-03, 12:43 AM	Originally posted by Oberoni Considering the hide-and-recharge methods you mentioned earlier in the very first post (Rope Trick, Teleport, even Mansion), do you even consider the relatively small number of spells per day a true limitation? Why so? Those methods basically mean that a spellcaster can throw all his spells into a single encounter in most cases, if he feels it's necessary. A T-S sorcerer will have fewer spells available to do that with, so it's naturally a limitation. Think of it as fewer spells per encounter, rather than fewer spells per day. --Paul
Paul S 07-26-03, 12:58 AM	Originally posted by kalniel Aside from blasting have you thought about illusions?Yes, I have. The problem is much the same: a straight illusionist is likely to be better at it. This is the problem for the 3E sorcerer: he works best in some kind of specialist role, where his limited spell selection can be focused on one area. But his selection is so limited that a wizard can know more spells in his specialty area than a sorcerer can, and a specialist wizard can quite likely cast them as often or more often. So he works best as a specialist, but even there he lags behind the wizard. With a careful spell selection (took me a couple of weeks) sorcerers can be extemely versitle as is, and hey, they're really fun to play with much less bookkeeping than a wizard!I've seen people try to make the sorcerer as versatile as the wizard, but it can't be done. It just can't. The reason is that a wizard can learn every versatile multi-use spell that a sorcerer can learn and more. It's plain math: anything the sorcerer can do, the wizard can do better. Really, the only advantage the sorcerer has is spontaneous metamagic, but with full round casting times and fewer feats than a wizard, even that advantage is rather small. This is why I'm recommending that the sorcerer stop trying to be a wizard and take a radically different direction. --Paul
KotJC_Enigma42 07-26-03, 07:05 AM	hmmm... apparently no one likes my little "spontaneous learning" mechanic. to such a degree that it doesn't even deserve a comment such as "You idiot, quit being stupid" or thats (under/over)powered!" Ah well, such is the like of a message board junkie. back on topic: the problem with the sorcerer is that his key trick, that of being able to repeat the same thing over and over, is easily replicated by resting a night in a magic safe haven, easily provided by the merry mage. due to the nature of this problem, there isn't much that can be done to balance the two in combat ability, since the wizard won't likely need his high level spells more than 4 or five times, (and the sorcerer will almost never need his top spell six times), the conflict comes to the spell selection. This is normally in favor of the wizard. But with your mechanic you tip the scale to the sorcerer. You then try to compensate for this by limiting the sorcerer on how many times he can, so that he DOES run out of spells. But, with being able to use any standard arcane spell at will, he can easily choose a spell from the next level down that will be nearly as effective, so he isn't as hurt as you would hope. In the end, I don't think that their is much of a way to balance the two. Like the magic system in general, its not mathematic enough to balance. And if it were, it wouldn't be nearly as intresting. Its an intresting variant with a new approach, but I think it just has too much going for it (spontaneous casting, full un-abridged spell list...) and not enough going against it (less spells per day.) Effectively you turned the tables: where the wizard had versatility and lack of spells your sorcerer has versatility and lack of spells. I realize that was your idea, but all you really did was say "This is why the wizard is better than the sorcerer. So lets push it further: less spells per day and more spells known is balanced, so push the ration further." Like I said, while intresting, I don't think its balanced.
Oberoni 07-26-03, 07:36 AM	One thing I like about this class is that it "feels" like what sorcery should be. When I read my JSA comics and Dr. Fate casts one of his cool spells, it's not like he seems to memorize stuff that's appropriate, or that he's limited to only doing a few tricks. He does what he wants, when he wants. Your sorcerer is kind of like that. Still, though, this guy's biggest disadvantage is in many ways nullified by a level two spell, Rope Trick. I'm not even sure if it's that big a deal, I guess--after all, the rest-and-blast strategy can be used by any spellcaster. However, if we're willing to accept that rest-and-blast is a valid strategy, then we have to accept that the Tough Shite sorcerer's primary weakness doesn't mean much. And if that's the case, then we have to accept that the Wizard class traded something that doesn't mean much and a couple metamagic feats to gain spontaneous, unrestricted spellcasting. That sure looks like a trade in the TS sorc's favor to me. And I'm pretty sure that we'll all agree that the last thing the Wizard needs is an upgrade. However, perhaps losing a spell a level and some feats is a bigger deal than I'm giving credit for. I'm not 100% sure at this point.
Paul S 07-26-03, 03:08 PM	Originally posted by Oberoni One thing I like about this class is that it "feels" like what sorcery should be. When I read my JSA comics and Dr. Fate casts one of his cool spells, it's not like he seems to memorize stuff that's appropriate, or that he's limited to only doing a few tricks. He does what he wants, when he wants. Your sorcerer is kind of like that.Yes, that was part of our hope in designing it this way. However, perhaps losing a spell a level and some feats is a bigger deal than I'm giving credit for. I'm not 100% sure at this point. I think it might be, but I'm not 100% sure either. I'm playtesting the T-S sorcerer in my own campaign, and I'm hoping some others will give it a try as well. --Paul
fidelio 07-26-03, 06:52 PM	The current sorceror is not a "weak" wizard. Contrary to what you say, it pretty much always has more spells than even the specialist wizard, level 3 being the exception for high-stat chars. And, more importantly, it has spontaneous casting. Right now, I see it as a powerful "blaster" wizard. The wizard has fewer spells per day than he seems. In many cases, having the "wrong" spell is equivalent to having no spell at all. If I play a wizard, I generally accept that at least one of my spells of every level is going to be wasted. Sometimes, I have bad luck and end up with very few usable spells. A sorceror who has chosen the right spells is the perfect blaster. He always has the right attack spells for the situation, and has a ton of them. He can do a lot more damage than just about any wizard, because the wizard has to be lucky to have just the right spells. If you stock up on lightning bolts, pray you don't come across a lich. Always get Dispel Magic... but regret it every time it ends up unused at the end of the day. And Invisibility or True Invisibility, for that matter. And Teleportation, just in case. Etc. You get my point. Moreover, if your gaming party does not allow a lot of "blast and rest", the high number of spells the sorceror has that are actually useful becomes a serious advantage. Seriously, I only have a few gaming experiences where the "blast and rest" strategy is encouraged or even tolerated. Our characters are in danger, or have something important to do. They're not going to sleep, advance for 15 minutes, fight, then go back to sleep. So more spells per day is significant in most games I play That is not to say that the sorceror class has no problems. As it is right now, it is a death-trap for newbies... and even for non-min-maxers. Choose the wrong spells and you're going to suck big-time. That makes the class unplayable for a broad category of players. And the limited spell selection takes out a lot of fun in the class. You can't pick cool spell Y just for kicks, even if you really want to. If you want to "fix" the 3.5 sorceror, I would recommend a much looser swapping-out mechanism, specifically one that is not level-dependant. For example, spells can be swapped out at will, but is takes a full day of meditation. Or a week doing anything you want, including adventuring. Or whatever. That, in itself, would give the sorceror a much broader appeal. He could create any magic items, try out cool, sub-optimal spells, start out as illusionists then become invokers, etc. The class would become viable for just about anyone Further changes, more along the lines of what you propose, would be giving the sorceror an "any spell" slot. But then, for balance issues, you might have to reduce the number of spells per day the sorceror has. But then, I would recommend against that mechanism. The sorceror currently has a niche it fills really well, the combat caster. It wouldn't do that as well with one "anyspell" and fewer spells per day. And it is unclear to me that it would fill a new niche. Going as far down that road as possible, we end up withe the T-S sorceror. As it is, the class is probably too weak at lower levels (not enough spells) and too strong higher up. Frankly, like I said, I don't see the wizard as really having 4/5 spells per level per day. So in most cases, the T-S sorceror is going to have almost as many useful spells as the wizard... Only he's going to have the best ones. (And think about this: that new sorceror will be a bane to the big, bad enemy mage. Place the players against a powerful lich with a couple dozen small minions. Your plan is to have the players fight the minions for a few rounds while the lich hurts them bad. Then they get to the lich. But your players have a T-S sorceror, the ultimate counterspeller. So the lich is in trouble.) If you really want to balance that class, you would probably have to remove even more spells per day. Perhaps limit it to 2 for levels 6-9 or something like that. But then the class becomes crippled, in my mind. At high levels, that class it still too powerful in the first combat, and too helpless afterwards. It becomes a class that is inherently "blast-and-rest." And really, I like NWN, but there are reasons I still play pen-and-paper DND. Okay, so you want a "bag of tricks" caster that can do anything. That really is a cool concept. But the sorceror is not the right class to fill that role. Do that to the bard. Give the bard access to any sorceror/wizard spell, or to a custom spell list, and limit its spells per day to two, maximum 6th level. Then you have an extremely versatile class that becomes an extremely versatile caster. Since it has very few spells per day and caps at spell level 6, it is not completely over-powered, yet because it has decent BAB and skills, it can do something once it runs out of spells. I like the Wizard's versatility. But I love the Sorceror's ability to blast away like nothing else. The wizard can't do that, especially at lower levels. Remove the current sorceror and, I feel, dnd loses something. (Sorry for the long post. Hope this helps.)
Paul S 07-26-03, 09:30 PM	Originally posted by fidelio The current sorceror is not a "weak" wizard. Contrary to what you say, it pretty much always has more spells than even the specialist wizard, level 3 being the exception for high-stat chars. And, more importantly, it has spontaneous casting. Right now, I see it as a powerful "blaster" wizard.A lot of people do, but a close comparison of the sorcerer with the specialist wizard shows that this is false. For "blasting," spell DCs matter. That means that the higher-level spells are the most important for combat, and it's here that the sorcerer suffers. He gets new spell levels one level behind the wizard, and until 20th level he never has more spells at the highest levels than the specialist does. He has more spells total than the specialist, yes, but the lower level spells aren't all that important for combat, so they don't count very much in figuring his effectiveness as a combat mage. Furthermore, while the specialist is probably the sorcerer's equal as a combat caster, he still has versatility when he really needs it. The sorcerer is stuck with what he has, for the most part. Even the PHB recommends that a party with a sorcerer should have another primary caster as well to make up for the sorcerer's shortcomings. That's a pretty glaring indictment of the class IMO. (And think about this: that new sorceror will be a bane to the big, bad enemy mage. Place the players against a powerful lich with a couple dozen small minions. Your plan is to have the players fight the minions for a few rounds while the lich hurts them bad. Then they get to the lich. But your players have a T-S sorceror, the ultimate counterspeller. So the lich is in trouble.)The T-S sorcerer's ability at counterspelling is one of the less obvious strengths of the class. His problem, of course, is that he doesn't have a lot of slots to do that with. In a spell-duel with a lich he'll likely be overwhelmed, especially if he's already burned spell slots dealing with other things in the lich's lair. This is a nice ability, I agree, but I don't think it's overpowering. And BTW, I have considered something like this for the bard as well. Give the T-S sorcerer a try and see how it works. Until we get a body of playtest info for this variant, all we have is guesses for how it will perform. --Paul
Sakris 07-27-03, 05:29 AM	I hate memorizing. Maybe I'll try to house rule that no more memorizing is needed. Then the sorceror would just have more spells per day, and the wizard would be the utility-belt approach, with him being able to learn Spells from books & scrolls.
Count Arioch the 28th 08-04-03, 09:08 AM	Ya know, that's not too bad. I happen to like it. I do have one criticism: The formatting is wombatting up the thread. I HATE that! :mad:
Paul S 08-04-03, 12:15 PM	Originally posted by Count Arioch the 28th Ya know, that's not too bad. I happen to like it. Thanks! Give it a try in your game and let us know how it works out! I do have one criticism: The formatting is wombatting up the thread. I HATE that! :mad: Sorry. I couldn't figure out a better way to get all the info in. --Paul
Tae Kwon Dan 08-04-03, 02:56 PM	Paul this one is interesting and I'll think on it. I have a feeling there is going to be a way to break this thing, but nothing jumps right out at me.
DarkMerlin12 08-04-03, 03:56 PM	I kinda like the idea, as it sorta fits with the kind of free-form magic I have been thinking about for the sorcerer. However, I have some problems with it (most of which have already been addressed by someone else). One thing I don't think you have considered is the break this class could cause in the flow of the game. A player with a sorcerer or wizard simply has to glance at his list of spells known or prepared spells to decide what he wants to cast on his turn. With this class, OTOH, I can definately see my players (or myself) flipping through the player's handbook for over 5 minutes, trying to find the perfect spell ("Wait a second, let me just check to see what spell-like abilities the creatures from Summon Monster V have..."). Though limiting the available spells to the PHb helps some, I am opposed to this because a) it isn't fair to groups like mine who use spells from a dozen or more books, b) it handicaps third-party publishers by making their spells almost worthless, and c) it doesn't make since that the spells in the PHb are simpler or more intuitive than those from other sources (why is it that guards and wards and simulacrum come intuitively, but the lesser energy orb spells must be researched?).
Paul S 08-04-03, 04:32 PM	Originally posted by DarkMerlin12 One thing I don't think you have considered is the break this class could cause in the flow of the game. A player with a sorcerer or wizard simply has to glance at his list of spells known or prepared spells to decide what he wants to cast on his turn. With this class, OTOH, I can definately see my players (or myself) flipping through the player's handbook for over 5 minutes, trying to find the perfect spell ("Wait a second, let me just check to see what spell-like abilities the creatures from Summon Monster V have..."). I see this as a DM problem, not a mechanical problem. Any time a dithering PC is slowing the game, a DM can just rule that he has to decide now or lose his action. There's no time for involved decision-making in combat. If the characters are in a non-combat situation, then taking some time to explore options generally doesn't cause any problem. Though limiting the available spells to the PHb helps some, I am opposed to this because a) it isn't fair to groups like mine who use spells from a dozen or more books, b) it handicaps third-party publishers by making their spells almost worthless, and c) it doesn't make since that the spells in the PHb are simpler or more intuitive than those from other sources (why is it that guards and wards and simulacrum come intuitively, but the lesser energy orb spells must be researched?). I don't think having to research a spell makes it anything close to worthless. As for drawing the line at the PHB, there are several reasons: 1) The class needs some limitations on its spells or it becomes overpowered: you end up with the same problems that dogged shadow magic, only worse. After all if a sorcerer could theoretically cast any spell that exists anywhere, then since chances are someone at some time has researched a spell to do just about anything a person can think up, a sorcercer could then do anything he could think of that the DM felt like allowing. That would get really messy. 2) Given that a line has to be drawn somewhere, the PHB is a logical place to draw it. The core classes are always balanced for the core rules, and should never be written with the assumption that non-core rules will be used in a game. 3) Historically, through several editions, non-core spells have always been treated as less common or widely available than core spells. So the PHB made a logical choice for a "baseline" that any sorcerer might grok intuitively. --Paul
DarkMerlin12 08-04-03, 08:27 PM	Originally posted by Paul S I see this as a DM problem, not a mechanical problem. Any time a dithering PC is slowing the game, a DM can just rule that he has to decide now or lose his action. There's no time for involved decision-making in combat. The problem is that game designers cannot get caught up in the mechanics and forget that there will be actual people (with papers and dice) who may end up using the material you write, and anything that makes life harder for them or natually leads to problems is bad, balanced or not. Simply saying that this is a DM problem is not valid because it is a DM problem inherent in the class, and therefore an even bigger problem than whether a class is balanced or not. As a DM, more likely to allow an unbalanced class which presents few problems than a balanced class which leads to the kind of disruption of flow that I described. The second problem is that the core material IS in fact written with 3rd-party and other WotC material in mind (after all, the Open Gaming Liscence was concieved when they first decided to create 3e). A mechanic which limits this material in any way would be a dangerous break from the rest of the system. So basically, I like your idea of a precision spellcaster (though I think it is more of an entirely new class than a "fix" for the sorcerer), it's just not fesible as-is, IMO.
Paul S 08-04-03, 08:56 PM	Originally posted by DarkMerlin12 The problem is that game designers cannot get caught up in the mechanics and forget that there will be actual people (with papers and dice) who may end up using the material you write, and anything that makes life harder for them or natually leads to problems is bad, balanced or not. Simply saying that this is a DM problem is not valid because it is a DM problem inherent in the class, and therefore an even bigger problem than whether a class is balanced or not.Sorry, I don't see it. The problem is inherent in the players, perhaps, but not in the class. What you're talking about is no different from a player who runs a fighter slowing a combat encounter by paging through the combat section of the PHB trying to decide whether he should try a trip, a shield bash, or move to a flanking position. Any time a player takes too long weighing his tactical options, that's a problem with the player, and it's correctable by the DM. The fact that a class has a lot of tactical options can't be taken as a flaw of the class. The second problem is that the core material IS in fact written with 3rd-party and other WotC material in mind (after all, the Open Gaming Liscence was concieved when they first decided to create 3e). A mechanic which limits this material in any way would be a dangerous break from the rest of the system. Again, I don't agree. There's no indication whatever that Core material was balanced with non-core material in mind. In fact, that's flat impossible, since most of the non-core material hadn't been written when the core rules came out. The OGL allows and encourages non-core material to be developed by 3rd party vendors, but that material is ALWAYS optional (even when WotC writes it). There's no way that a core class can be designed to take into account every non-core option that might yet be developed, so no one tries to do this. There will always be certain options, both core and non-core, that are easier for some classes to take advantage of than others. It's easier for a wizard to become a Member of the Arcane Order than for a sorcerer - that is, the MotAO prestige class is "limited" to some extent for sorcerers. Thus the fact that a given core class has a slightly harder time making use of certain non-core material doesn't seem like a serious problem to me. --Paul
Xalxika 08-04-03, 09:31 PM	Paul S, I fully agree with your system because when you get into extra books, there are sooooooo manye spells. I have a S&S book with over 200 new spells. How the hell can a Sorcerer make good choices for spells when there are that many spells? The answer is that you can't. It may be a little overpowering that they can know hundreds or even thousands of spells if the DM has enough books, but hey, the Wizard gets those rings that double their spells for 1st through 4th level spells. And I'm sure that there are possibilities for making rings to double their spells per day for higher levels. Yes, if a Wizard prepares his spells wrong he's screwed. But what if he gets one of those rings? Then he can prepare twice as many spells just in case. A scenario for you all: NPC: ...and beware of the giant. I don't remember what type he is, it's either fire or ice. PC Wizard: It's no problem. I have this here ring that allows me to prepare fireball and ice storm. See, a Wizard can prepare spells if they know what they are up against and be awesome as hell. But if they aren't sure all the time they can buy one of these rings. A Sorcerer on the other hand decides to learn Fireball only to realize 3 campaigns later that he must travel to the planes of fire, or must fight a red dragon. Guess what, that Sorcerer is f*ck*d. Cheerio to your new Sorcerer, and I will be using it Paul S.
Otto the Bugbear 08-04-03, 10:32 PM	Hrm. It sounds like what you want is to decide on the effect on the fly. There have been several books I've read that treated magic that way (notably The Black Company series of books by Glen Cook but others as well) and I've always wanted to try something like that. If that's really what you're aiming for, why bother using spells at all? It'd be pretty frickin hard to utilize all those spells and I can see players falling into a rut of using the same old spells over and over. Why not just have the player state what effect he'd like to have, then the DM decides what level spell slot that takes up? Player: "I'd like to charm that Gorgon" DM: "That'll cost you a 4th level spell slot" (Rolls save, etc. etc.) Player: "Now I want to appear to have crackling flames for hair, glowing red eyes, black claws, and the smell of smoldering clothing while I ride the Gorgon." DM: "That'll cost you a 3rd level spell slot" No need for the player to pour through all those books and memorize the spells and it still leaves interpretation for power level up to the DM. The only other thing would be perhaps some kind of spell point system, Just another random thought. Paul, instead of that funky table, use the code and /code function to get spacing for tables easier to read. The command is {code} table here {/code} replace the { & } with [ & ], respectively. Hope that helps. :teach: Cheers Otto :)
Ivarrius 08-04-03, 10:43 PM	Originally posted by Funny Slaughter ....a sorcerer can spontaneously cast spells. why does he have to carry material components around? a wizard prepares his spells and goes shopping, a sorcerer is, in my opinion, more the guy who walks through the park and thinks about "hey, good time for a fireball" and there he go. hahahahaha Thats great!!!
Roxlimn 09-22-03, 02:04 AM	Design questions: Is the "0" for each new spell level appropriate? We considered making it 1 to start, but this may overbalance the class at 1st level, giving as many spells as the wizard while still giving it the super-spontaneous casting. OTOH the 0 might make it underpowered at every level above 1, which would be worse. So feedback on this point would be much appreciated. For the most part, the 0 on the progression virtually gives the Sorcerer a "1" on that list for every level until 8 or so because most Sorcerers will have stats that are simply that high. One spell a day castable from the entire list compared to 2 spells a day castable from a choice of 2 seems reasonable. He'll have something of a quandary until level 11 since most PCs don't prioritize stat items, but once he does, that "0" is most likely a 1 vs a 2 every time. The version of spontaneous casting that this class is based on has the potential to be very powerful. By being able to pick the right spell for any occasion, the sorcerer has the potential to dominate any single encounter. But he can't do it very often, and he can't do it for very long. If his first few spells don't resolve the situation he's in trouble. How do you foresee this working out in practice? Is it underpowered, overpowered, just plain nuts? Personally, I think that this power for that level is too powerful. Being able to choose the high level power of your choice for one encounter is powerful precisely because some spells were balanced with the thought that they would be limited in their usefulness. Resist Energy is not that powerful a spell when you need to either choose it for your Spells Known or prepare it beforehand (or both), but when it becomes a power you can summon as you choose simply by devoting a round to it, then I can see why it might be a problem. Suddenly, the Sorcerer becomes Mr. Defense. A smartly played one may be essentially impossible to bring down. Most defensive spells are balanced like this. Part of the reason why Clerics are so strong defensively is because they know all the spells without devoting time and energy to them. If you combine this with spontaneous casting, then you may be enhancing defensive power to a level you are unprepared to meet. CAN YOU BREAK THIS CLASS??? Are there any major glitches you can see that would ruin the class at any given level of play? Combined with a Wizard, this class can create any item he wants pretty much, unless it involved a Cleric. Any item creation feat would be especially potent for him. With the right items, he can be potent both offensively and defensively. Nope. No playtest yet. Probably won't. I'm sorry Paul, but the conceptual basis of the class doesn't appeal to me, though I did offer what I thought about it here.
Paul S 09-22-03, 03:39 AM	Originally posted by Xalxika Paul S, I fully agree with your system because when you get into extra books, there are sooooooo manye spells. I have a S&S book with over 200 new spells. How the hell can a Sorcerer make good choices for spells when there are that many spells? The answer is that you can't. It may be a little overpowering that they can know hundreds or even thousands of spells if the DM has enough books, but hey, the Wizard gets those rings that double their spells for 1st through 4th level spells. And I'm sure that there are possibilities for making rings to double their spells per day for higher levels. I need to clarify something, Xalxika: The basic spells to which a sorcerer has access are only those on the core list - that is, the list in the Player's Handbook. A sorcerer can lern other spells, either those from non-core books or those he makes up on his own, but each such spell must be separately researched before the sorcerer will have access to it. Best, --Paul
Paul S 09-22-03, 03:44 AM	Originally posted by Otto the Bugbear Hrm. It sounds like what you want is to decide on the effect on the fly. There have been several books I've read that treated magic that way (notably The Black Company series of books by Glen Cook but others as well) and I've always wanted to try something like that. If that's really what you're aiming for, why bother using spells at all? It'd be pretty frickin hard to utilize all those spells and I can see players falling into a rut of using the same old spells over and over. Why not just have the player state what effect he'd like to have, then the DM decides what level spell slot that takes up? That is the effect we're aiming for. We didn't go that route for two reasons. Mechanically, that would run the risk of making the sorcerer overpowered. Limiting his access to the core list still gives him enormous versatility; by throwing his access open to any spell effect that he can sell to the DM, we fear it would make him too powerful. The second, more practical reason is that a completely open-ended spell effect system would have a hard time with standardization, and would lead to endless arguments that disrupt the flow of the game. It would also be impractical for tournament play. So the short answer is, we like your idea, but the core list is the closest we felt we could come to that ideal and still make it playable. --Paul
Jindl 09-22-03, 08:48 AM	Hrmm, the ultimate spellcaster? Cleric 3/TS Sorc 3/MT 10/ArcMage4 Has acces to all wizards spells spontaneously and has access to all cleric spells 7th level or lower (but has to memorize them). Paul- some other "problems" you need to look at. On the wiz/sor list, there are about 25 ninth level spells, about 35 eight level spells, and about 35 seventh level spells. A regular sorc knows 9 spells out of these 95. I think that is one of your points. But for a wiz to know all of these, he would have to spend like 25*9*100=22,500 + 35*8*100=28000 + 35*7*100=24500 for a total of 75,000 gp just to scribe them in his spell book. Then there is the cost of getting the spell in the first place (buying the scroll is the most likely manner). Of course a wiz learns 2 new spells per level, but the point is it would cost a wizard well over 100,000 gp to have every 7th,8th, and 9th level spell in their books. This cost gets higher as you count the 4th,5th and 6th level spells. A normal sorc could take that 100,000 gp and spend it on a great buffing item. Your TS Sorc gets the best of both worlds. Also, this class will be the first to allow 3rd level spontaneous casting at 5th character level (all you AT's , EK's, and other PrC's listen up...) That means your class will be subject to just as much, if not more, prestiging than a normal sorc! Just my initial thoughts. I would like to playtest it, but my DM thinks its too powerful. Oh well, I'll stick to my normal sorc (who both my DM and other players think is the most powerful character in the group. Sor9/DivDisc5/Acm2 ...)
Alderic 09-22-03, 09:28 AM	I see nothing wrong with sorcerers. But that may be 'cause when I play I never have enough time to stop and research spells, not create magic items (not even scrolls and potions in most cases) I'll play another sorcerer soon, I don't think I've ever used M components, not even expensive ones, so that's not an issue. And even if they're in use in a campain, I won't use them as a sorcerer, call it an house rule, but there is really no reason to have material components as a sorcerer.
sloisel 11-01-03, 03:30 AM	Hello, Originally posted by Paul S [list=1] Is the "0" for each new spell level appropriate? The version of spontaneous casting that this class is based on has the potential to be very powerful. CAN YOU BREAK THIS CLASS??? How does it balance against other primary caster classes? [/list=1] I loved playing sorcerers in 3.0, even though I found it challenging to have a well-rounded character due to all the requirements. I would have much liked to play sorcerers in 3.5, but the sum of all the tiny changes to wizards and sorcerers pushes it past the point where I'm no longer willing to make the necessary sacrifices. I would be more interested in playing the class you suggest than the 3.5 sorcerer. Now about your precise question. 1) I'd be willing to play it with a 0 for each new spell level. I believe that the state of affairs in 3.0 and 3.5 where spell levels are one off for sorcerers is a problem orthogonal to the spell selection/spell slots modifications you suggest here. While sorcerers are perfectly playable, it'd be a lot less frustrating if they kept pace with their wizard bretherens in spell levels, especially at level 5. I think it should be possible to let sorcerer cast the same spell levels as wizards without breaking them somehow. 2) This kind of spontaneous spellcasting is very powerful, yes. I suspect a lot of people who are used to the current setup will balk at it too. However, I don't think it would break things. (More on this below.) 3) Yes, in precisely the same way I can break a wizard. 4) I think it matches the wizard fairly evenly. Spontaneous casting all spells vs wizards and scrolls. I always dismissed the scroll argument for wizards, but I've tried it recently in the core arena elsewhere on this forum, and it's actually basically true. A wizard should run around with a bunch of scrolls "just in case." You shouldn't mind using them either. There are many ways that these scrolls can be taken from you, and scrolls do take time to create, so there are disadvantages. On the other hand, you have no limit on the number of scrolls you can carry, so that's an advantage. When you do this, you start to approach the flexibility of spontaneous casters of all kinds. It's not the same, but it's the same kind of ability. Look at the druid. The main spell I want to cast (for almost all spell levels) is SNA. This essentially means that at each spell level, I just choose a smattering of cool spells and dump them in favor of SNA whenever. This particular combination lets me choose a wide variety of all-purpose spells from the Druid spell list, achieving a high degree of versatility while still allowing me to use all my slots in SNAs, which is what I tend to do anyhow. So again, this isn't anywhere near casting all spells spontaneously, it is kind of the same flavor. Looking at core rules right now, there are many ways for wizards (and other spellcasters) to become able to dish out the spells like a sorcerer, but I don't see many ways for sorcerer to acquire wizard-like diversity. The main culprits are magical items, including: scrolls, pearls of power, rod of absorption, staff of magic missile at will without charges (isn't that a 2000GP item that uses your own caster level?) Counterbalancing the weakness of your spell ability A wizard's weakness (compared to sorcerers) is that they have to prepare spells and have no spontaneous casting ability whatsoever. To counteract their weakness, they get, for free, at level 1, a feat, for scribing scrolls. So the class comes with a pill against its own weakness. I think that similarly, any sorcerer should come with some sort of pill against its own weakness. I've been doing this in 3.0 by doing the Sorcerer/MotAO build. This doesn't achieve the versatility of the Wizard, but much like the Wizard approaches spontaneous casting with scrolls, the MotAO build gives a little bit of versatility to the sorcerer. However, this is far from built-in, it would be nice if the sorcerer had a built-in pill against his weakness. In your version, the weakness if the small number of spells. It would be great if you could have a way of casting more in a restricted way. (Analogy: the MotAO gives the Sorcerer the ability to cast diverse spells, in a very limited way, scribe scroll lets the wizard draw from spells not memorized in a limited way. So there ought to be a way of using more spells per day, but something should limit it, such as for instance, not being able to use any spell in the book or such.) Rounding out the sorcerer All the other spellcasting classes are well rounded out. Clerics get bonus abilities per domains, sometimes including feat or class skills; druids have 4 skill points per level and cute abilities at many levels, wizards have lots of skill points due to their primary stat being int and have bonus feats every 5th level. Sorcerers get the shaft in most category. I don't think this really serves to balance the class, it just serves to make it a one-dimensional character. You're helping the sorcerer by giving him another cha-based skill, but it would be good to give him some extra skill points, as well as a reason to stay a sorcerer after level 5 (instead of taking some prestige class.) The obvious thing would be to give him bonus feats like a wizard, but any kind of class ability would be welcome. In most cases, familiar progression is too little incentive to stay a sorcerer when there's good stuff in PrC's. Depending on which PrCs are available, I will actually play a wizard to the mid-teens, but I will bail out of sorcerer in favor of any PrC, as long as it's got the usual spell progression and accessible prerequisites. Cheers, Sιbastien Loisel