Post/Author/DateTime	Post
karthos 02-21-07, 01:04 AM	I started this in the Warlock Compilation but it seems like it deserves it's own thread. According to p. 71 of the Complete Arcane: Sudden Metamagic Feats: These metamagic feats don't require modified spell slots, and so they work as well with spell-like abilities or invocations as they do with spells... This block of text would seem to indicate that any ability that would allow you apply a metamagic feat without a spell level increase (such as Incantatrix, Metamagic song, Sudden Metamagic feats, etc.) would allow you to apply that metamagic feat to a spell-like ability. This has huge implications for Warlocks in particular (Twinned Helfire Eldritch Glaive followed by a quickened, twinned eldritch glave could be quite fun), and I am sure that certain races could benefit pretty majorly from this as well. Opinions? Can anyone prove why this wouldn't work, according to RAW?
Drill_Sgt 02-21-07, 01:10 AM	metamagic feats dont work with s.l.a.'s. thats why, for example, maximized spell like ability is a separate feat from maximize spell. all of the sla feats are inheirently sudden allready, so the sudden feats would pale in comparison.
karthos 02-21-07, 01:21 AM	I understand the SLA feats are better then the sudden feats, however there are many metamagic feats which do not have an SLA equivalent. The SLA feats have no bearing on this discussion as we all understand how they work. As indicated by the quote from Complete Arcane, the only reason metamagic feats don't work with SLAs is because they need to modify spell levels, which SLAs do not have. According to the text, remove the need to modify spell level and you can apply the feat to SLAs. That's the point.
Czavier 02-21-07, 02:45 AM	you realize that suddon metamagics can only be done once per day right?
karthos 02-21-07, 10:22 AM	*sigh* Does anyone even read the post? The text of the Sudden Metamagic feat is only the gateway into what I am talking about. The actual Sudden feats are unimportant, as you wouldn't be taking them. Here is a build as an example: Halfling Ranger 1/Warlock 6/Nosomatic Chirurgeon 1/Incantatrix 9 Feats: Any metamagic feat Quicken Spell-Like Ability (eldritch blast) Twin Spell Iron Will Least Dragonmark (Mark of Healing) Invocations: Eldritch Glaive Utterdark Blast Round 1: Use Instant Metamagic ability from the Incantatrix to apply Twin Spell to your Utterdark Eldritch Glaive, getting two full round attacks, then use a quickened (via quicken spell like ability), twinned (via intant metamagic) utterdark eldritch glaive resulting in: 7d6x8 (min 8, max 336, avg 172) damage to one foe, plus a possible 16 negative levels. This is only meant as an example to demonstrate the concept and is in no way an optimized build. I'm sure that this could yield much more lethal results.
PhoenixInferno 02-21-07, 11:38 AM	Incantatrix has an actual "Able to cast 3rd level spells" requirement, not "Arcane Caster level 5th". You can't use it that way. I think you're reaching too far with your interpretation of Sudden Metamagics implying you can apply metamagic to SLAs as long as you don't have to up the spell slot.
karthos 02-21-07, 11:53 AM	That's why I took Nosomatic Chirurgeon, it allows you to spontaneously cast inflict wounds spells using spell-like abilities. Convert your lesser invocation to inflict serious and you qualify. It doesn't seem like reaching to me, at least no more so than many things on this board. The text clearly states that having no level adjustment is what allows the sudden metamagic feats to be applied to SLAs. It stands to reason that removing the need for a level adjustment from other metamagic feats would allow them to be applied to SLAs as well.