A question about natural attacks/optimization [Archive] - Wizards Community

A question about natural attacks/optimization [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jozell
10-01-05, 09:00 AM I am currently playing a human druid6/Lion of Talisid7. I got a wish and wished for the natural weapons of a cat and the GM gave me claws on my hands and a bite attack. I have bought Multiattack and Improved Multiattack, and Improved Natural Weapon <claws>. I have 1 casting of Greater Magic Fang with perminancy on one claw. And an 18 Str.

Ok here are my questions...1. My enchanted claw should be +14/+9, then should my second claws be..+9/+4 and the bite be +9/+4? Or am I doing that wrong?

My other question is..I want to get level 9 spells, are there any good PRC that I can add to help with this build? I was thinking of just taking 2 levels of Fighter to get more base attack to get up to 4 attacks.

Thanks for your help.
PhoenixInferno
10-01-05, 10:54 AM If you're going to focus on natural attacks, why are you worried about getting to 16 BAB? Just pump STR. Natural attacks don't follow the iterative attack routine.
Arkat
10-01-05, 11:01 AM Which option did you take for Greater Magic Fang? +1 to all natural weapons or +1 to +5 (depending on caster level, in your case +3 because it's +1 per caster level divided by 4) to the one claw?
Caelic
10-01-05, 11:02 AM I am currently playing a human druid6/Lion of Talisid7. I got a wish and wished for the natural weapons of a cat and the GM gave me claws on my hands and a bite attack.

Heh. You're lucky he wasn't feeling malevolent.

WIZARD: "Hey, Bob, what in the world are those?"

DRUID: "Dunno...I wished for the natural weapons of a cat, and I got a handful of tiny little claws and teeth. Weird..."

WIZARD: "Yeah, wei..." (looks in Familiar Pocket) "Oh, great Boccob! What have you done to Mister Fluffy!?"

On a more serious note, you need to review the rules for natural weapons. Your primary natural weapons will attack at your highest BAB value--in this case 9--and your secondary weapons will all attack at that value minus 5 (unless you have Multiattack.) You don't get iterative attacks with any of the weapons.

Your claws would attack at +9, your teeth at +4--plus Strength and other enhancements, of course.
Arkat
10-01-05, 11:22 AM Well he's got Multiattack and Improved Multiattack so his bite would be at the same level as his claws. So, including Strength (+4) but not Greater Magic Fang (I still don't know which option he chose), both of his claws would be at +13 and so would his bite (thanks to Multiattack and Improved Multiattack). If he chose the +1 to all natural attacks option with his Greater Magic Fang, all three of his attacks (2 claws, 1 bite) would be at +14.

Assuming his damage for all three attacks was 1d6, his primary natural attack was his claws (I've only seen Dragons have their bite as the primary natural attack) and he took the +1 option for all natural attacks, his attack and damage would be:

Claw 1: +14 to Hit, 1d6+5 damage
Claw 2: +14 to Hit, 1d6+5 damage
Bite: +14 to Hit, 1d6+3 damage

He would get only 3 attacks a round (one for each natural attack) for the rest of his career unless he was hasted in which case he could take another claw or bite attack. It would not matter how high his BAB got, he would only ever use the first number and all his natural attacks would be based off that.

Oh, just so you know, Claw attacks count as both Slashing and Piercing attacks, and Bite attacks count as Slashing, Piercing, AND Blunt attacks. See Monster Manual III page 217 under "Natural Weapons."
jedrious
10-01-05, 01:31 PM at this point sacred vow, vow of pov wuldn't be a bad idea for late entry then your ntural attacks would all get the enhancement bonus without being suceptable to dispel
Jozell
10-02-05, 02:53 AM I took the +4 (had an 18th level druid I paid to cast it and then bought the permancy) So I have one claw that is +4 the bite and other is normal. Is there no way at all to get more attacks with natural weapons? I mean if monks can get more with hands, and others get more with weapons, why would natural weapons be so limited? I also have taken improved natural weapon <claws> and have been perminately enlarged. Thanks for all the help and I am going to be getting all my natural attacks up to +5 if I can ever find a 20th level druid, or atleast when I beome a 20th level druid. Also because of Lion of Talised I have pounce. ANY other susgestions?
Nifft
10-02-05, 03:04 AM Haste will give you an extra attack.
Two Aberrant feats can grant you 2 extra natural attacks.
There's a Fiendish Graft that grants you a tail sting attack.

... using a weapon in one hand grants you iterative attacks with that weapon, and then you get all your natural attacks except for that one hand...

-- N
Pinky's brain
10-02-05, 03:08 AM You can use blade boots or armor spikes or unarmed strikes (kicks) as your primary attacks (with extra attacks from BAB) and then use your natural attacks as secondary attacks (you get only 1/2 str to damage with secondary natural attacks though).
Jozell
10-02-05, 03:09 AM Do you know where I could find these Aberant feats? Also might it work to get more natural attacks if I went the monk route? I am just not seeing why there would be such a difference. I guess I have not seen the rule so that's why I am confused...And as a 7th level Lion, I get 7 free rounds of haste a day.
slade_caizer
10-02-05, 03:25 AM Eh. Just nab Warshaper when you're done with Lion. You'll have as many natural attacks as you want. ;) Rapid Strike is another option.
Jozell
10-02-05, 03:29 AM Where might I find Warshaper?
slade_caizer
10-02-05, 03:30 AM Where might I find Warshaper?Complete Warrior. Your Wildshape qualifies you since you already have BAB +4.
_thorak
10-02-05, 05:27 AM Natural attacks doesn't use the iterative BAB-chart? What about a monk then? 1 lvl monk should fix that problem or?
Arkat
10-02-05, 08:00 AM Natural attacks doesn't use the iterative BAB-chart? What about a monk then? 1 lvl monk should fix that problem or?

See, this is why I believe Natural Attacks are NOT the same as Unarmed Attacks.
Caelic
10-02-05, 09:47 AM Natural weapons aren't limited...quite the opposite.

Consider the monk. He gets iterative attacks with his unarmed strikes, yes--but that's using his whole body. He doesn't get iterative attacks with his left fist and iterative attacks with his right fist and iterative attacks with his left foot and iterative attacks with his right foot...which is what you're trying for here. Using all of his natural weapons in conjunction, he can eventually get a good number of attacks.

The Druid wildshaped into an animal, on the other hand, gets a good number of attacks even when his BAB wouldn't otherwise allow it. Your BAB of +9 would normally give you two attacks; with the aforementioned natural weapons, you're getting three, and two of them are at your highest BAB.

That's pretty powerful. If you could then get your full iterative attack sequence with each natural weapon, why would anyone ever go any route other than natural weapons?
Pinky's brain
10-02-05, 02:48 PM Do you know where I could find these Aberant feats? Also might it work to get more natural attacks if I went the monk route?No, the way I gave is the only way to get all your natural attacks as well as an iterative primary attack.
I am just not seeing why there would be such a difference.Because you can use natural weapons as secondary attacks at nearly full BAB, without needing stuff like TWF or MWF.

Lets say you get armor spikes (if you use power attack you might want large armor spikes, and perhaps monkey grip, so they are not light). You would get the following attack routine at 16 BAB ... spike / spike / spike / spike / claw / claw / bite.
Darkz0r
10-02-05, 03:08 PM Rapid strike and IRS are from Draconomicon.
You need to be Aberration, Half-Dragon or forgot what else to take it.
RS gives you another attack at -5, so you get say +12 claw +12 claw +7 claw.
IRS gives you 3 more, but you can only have 4 additional attacks.
The feat description is a little off, so take a look at the "King of Smack" thread for some clarification.

Im not sure why you took Multiattack either.. :confused:
X-Codes
10-02-05, 03:55 PM Multiattack gives a +3 to all secondary natural weapon attack rolls. It's a good feat, considering the penalty. Improved Multiattack not so much, though, mostly for the same reason the Tempest class isn't widely taken.
Nifft
10-02-05, 08:03 PM Let's see... most natural attacks I can get...

Claw, Claw, Bite -> Natural, Wish or Grafts

Aberrant Blood + Deepspawn (LoM) -> +2 tentacle rakes

Stinging Tail (FF) Fiendish Graft -> +1 tail sting

6 attacks, not terrible. Anyone got more?

(Ooo, and an obvious one: Aberrant Wildshape into a Grell. That would go nicely with some Sneak Attack dice.)

-- N
Tweedledope
10-02-05, 08:18 PM I know you've already gone the route of the Exalted Character but, you might want to see if your DM would allow you to adapt the Thayan Gladiator prestige class as something like a "Natural Gladiator" or something.

It's virtually the only prestige class (aside from the Warshaper) that focuses solely on natural attacks. It's really pretty awesome and can be found within the Champions of Ruin. Again, though, it requires evil alignment but, it could be VERY easily modified.

-=Tweedledope=-
Pinky's brain
10-02-05, 08:26 PM 6 attacks, not terrible. Anyone got more?A spellstoring weapon with arms of plenty would allow you to get 2 more for the cost of a single attack (on yourself).

Aberration wildshape to a grell would leave you blind BTW :)
Nifft
10-02-05, 08:31 PM A spellstoring weapon with arms of plenty would allow you to get 2 more for the cost of a single attack (on yourself).

I don't know if I want to Armor Spike myself... :)

-- N
Pinky's brain
10-02-05, 08:35 PM Just strike yourself for 1 pt of non-lethal damage. (Glad someone at least registered the armor spikes suggestion :))
Jozell
10-02-05, 09:58 PM Wow you guys are impressive. Ok so I have talked with the GM. He said I have claws on hands and bite and foot claws. So now I have 4 attacks with Rake if I can get two claws to hit. He let me change my greater magic fang I had to cast to amulets of natural attacks, sense we found those. He's really pretty flexable which is a God Send at times. I also talked him into modifying War Shaper, to get +2 caster levels in the 5 levels of War Shaper, by giving up all the BAB, and the Will and Fort saves but keeping everything else. So I think I am fairly set, I can get upto 5 attacks in a round with haste and will do like 2d6 damage with my bite and claws...Any feats you all can think of for me to take? I was thinking of taking Roll With It a few times to help my survivability.
Tempest Stormwind
10-02-05, 10:19 PM If your DM is lenient, you can probably talk him into letting you take Monstrous feats, since you now have natural attacks not available to a normal member of your race. If that's the case, RAPIDSTRIKE (and IMPROVED rapidstrike, both from Draconomicon) might be open. IDHTBWM, though, so I can't be certain on the prerequisites.
Nifft
10-02-05, 10:20 PM Aberration wildshape to a grell would leave you blind BTW :)

Since we're already using LoMadness, might as well pick up a level of Mindbender and then the Mindsight feat. Helps in these situations. And, it's really creepy!

(Just convince your DM that charm animal is sorta like charm person... :) Or, take the Extra Spell feat at 3rd level and choose charm person.)

-- N
Nifft
10-02-05, 10:52 PM I also talked him into modifying War Shaper, to get +2 caster levels in the 5 levels of War Shaper, by giving up all the BAB, and the Will and Fort saves but keeping everything else. So I think I am fairly set, I can get upto 5 attacks in a round with haste and will do like 2d6 damage with my bite and claws...Any feats you all can think of for me to take? I was thinking of taking Roll With It a few times to help my survivability.

Why would you give up BAB and saves? Those are things you'll want later. When you charge in and Power Attack, your PA is limited by your BAB... so you want a good BAB (even if you don't care about +16 in particular).

War Shaper is nice if you fight when Wild Shaped, but it sounds like you fight in your "natural" form, so it would not be a good class for you to take.

Is your goal with this character to be the best melee monster you can be, or to be a spellcasting Druid?

-- N
Jozell
10-02-05, 11:04 PM I have a couple of things I want to do with this char. First I want to be able to cast 9th level Druid spells so when we go Epic I can get epic spells. Second I am the secondary tank/damage dealer in the group. From the way I read Warshaper you can give yourself claws when in any form...And if you already have claws or a bite in that form it gives you the weapon as if it's the next size catagory. So right now my claws are Large <Got enlarge person perminant> Then got improved natural weapon, so with Warshaper I would hit Huge claws and bite with improved natural claws. I am looking to do good damage BUT I am also only one of two Divine spell casters in a group of 6 and so I need all the spell casting I can gain.
Tweedledope
10-03-05, 01:06 PM As stated earlier and IIRC, the benefits gained from Warshaper only work if you are not in your natural form. Since you have claw attacks, etc in your natural form you can't receive the benefits of Warshaper.

-=Tweedledope=-

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jozell 10-01-05, 09:00 AM	I am currently playing a human druid6/Lion of Talisid7. I got a wish and wished for the natural weapons of a cat and the GM gave me claws on my hands and a bite attack. I have bought Multiattack and Improved Multiattack, and Improved Natural Weapon <claws>. I have 1 casting of Greater Magic Fang with perminancy on one claw. And an 18 Str. Ok here are my questions...1. My enchanted claw should be +14/+9, then should my second claws be..+9/+4 and the bite be +9/+4? Or am I doing that wrong? My other question is..I want to get level 9 spells, are there any good PRC that I can add to help with this build? I was thinking of just taking 2 levels of Fighter to get more base attack to get up to 4 attacks. Thanks for your help.
PhoenixInferno 10-01-05, 10:54 AM	If you're going to focus on natural attacks, why are you worried about getting to 16 BAB? Just pump STR. Natural attacks don't follow the iterative attack routine.
Arkat 10-01-05, 11:01 AM	Which option did you take for Greater Magic Fang? +1 to all natural weapons or +1 to +5 (depending on caster level, in your case +3 because it's +1 per caster level divided by 4) to the one claw?
Caelic 10-01-05, 11:02 AM	I am currently playing a human druid6/Lion of Talisid7. I got a wish and wished for the natural weapons of a cat and the GM gave me claws on my hands and a bite attack. Heh. You're lucky he wasn't feeling malevolent. WIZARD: "Hey, Bob, what in the world are those?" DRUID: "Dunno...I wished for the natural weapons of a cat, and I got a handful of tiny little claws and teeth. Weird..." WIZARD: "Yeah, wei..." (looks in Familiar Pocket) "Oh, great Boccob! What have you done to Mister Fluffy!?" On a more serious note, you need to review the rules for natural weapons. Your primary natural weapons will attack at your highest BAB value--in this case 9--and your secondary weapons will all attack at that value minus 5 (unless you have Multiattack.) You don't get iterative attacks with any of the weapons. Your claws would attack at +9, your teeth at +4--plus Strength and other enhancements, of course.
Arkat 10-01-05, 11:22 AM	Well he's got Multiattack and Improved Multiattack so his bite would be at the same level as his claws. So, including Strength (+4) but not Greater Magic Fang (I still don't know which option he chose), both of his claws would be at +13 and so would his bite (thanks to Multiattack and Improved Multiattack). If he chose the +1 to all natural attacks option with his Greater Magic Fang, all three of his attacks (2 claws, 1 bite) would be at +14. Assuming his damage for all three attacks was 1d6, his primary natural attack was his claws (I've only seen Dragons have their bite as the primary natural attack) and he took the +1 option for all natural attacks, his attack and damage would be: Claw 1: +14 to Hit, 1d6+5 damage Claw 2: +14 to Hit, 1d6+5 damage Bite: +14 to Hit, 1d6+3 damage He would get only 3 attacks a round (one for each natural attack) for the rest of his career unless he was hasted in which case he could take another claw or bite attack. It would not matter how high his BAB got, he would only ever use the first number and all his natural attacks would be based off that. Oh, just so you know, Claw attacks count as both Slashing and Piercing attacks, and Bite attacks count as Slashing, Piercing, AND Blunt attacks. See Monster Manual III page 217 under "Natural Weapons."
jedrious 10-01-05, 01:31 PM	at this point sacred vow, vow of pov wuldn't be a bad idea for late entry then your ntural attacks would all get the enhancement bonus without being suceptable to dispel
Jozell 10-02-05, 02:53 AM	I took the +4 (had an 18th level druid I paid to cast it and then bought the permancy) So I have one claw that is +4 the bite and other is normal. Is there no way at all to get more attacks with natural weapons? I mean if monks can get more with hands, and others get more with weapons, why would natural weapons be so limited? I also have taken improved natural weapon <claws> and have been perminately enlarged. Thanks for all the help and I am going to be getting all my natural attacks up to +5 if I can ever find a 20th level druid, or atleast when I beome a 20th level druid. Also because of Lion of Talised I have pounce. ANY other susgestions?
Nifft 10-02-05, 03:04 AM	Haste will give you an extra attack. Two Aberrant feats can grant you 2 extra natural attacks. There's a Fiendish Graft that grants you a tail sting attack. ... using a weapon in one hand grants you iterative attacks with that weapon, and then you get all your natural attacks except for that one hand... -- N
Pinky's brain 10-02-05, 03:08 AM	You can use blade boots or armor spikes or unarmed strikes (kicks) as your primary attacks (with extra attacks from BAB) and then use your natural attacks as secondary attacks (you get only 1/2 str to damage with secondary natural attacks though).
Jozell 10-02-05, 03:09 AM	Do you know where I could find these Aberant feats? Also might it work to get more natural attacks if I went the monk route? I am just not seeing why there would be such a difference. I guess I have not seen the rule so that's why I am confused...And as a 7th level Lion, I get 7 free rounds of haste a day.
slade_caizer 10-02-05, 03:25 AM	Eh. Just nab Warshaper when you're done with Lion. You'll have as many natural attacks as you want. ;) Rapid Strike is another option.
Jozell 10-02-05, 03:29 AM	Where might I find Warshaper?
slade_caizer 10-02-05, 03:30 AM	Where might I find Warshaper?Complete Warrior. Your Wildshape qualifies you since you already have BAB +4.
_thorak 10-02-05, 05:27 AM	Natural attacks doesn't use the iterative BAB-chart? What about a monk then? 1 lvl monk should fix that problem or?
Arkat 10-02-05, 08:00 AM	Natural attacks doesn't use the iterative BAB-chart? What about a monk then? 1 lvl monk should fix that problem or? See, this is why I believe Natural Attacks are NOT the same as Unarmed Attacks.
Caelic 10-02-05, 09:47 AM	Natural weapons aren't limited...quite the opposite. Consider the monk. He gets iterative attacks with his unarmed strikes, yes--but that's using his whole body. He doesn't get iterative attacks with his left fist and iterative attacks with his right fist and iterative attacks with his left foot and iterative attacks with his right foot...which is what you're trying for here. Using all of his natural weapons in conjunction, he can eventually get a good number of attacks. The Druid wildshaped into an animal, on the other hand, gets a good number of attacks even when his BAB wouldn't otherwise allow it. Your BAB of +9 would normally give you two attacks; with the aforementioned natural weapons, you're getting three, and two of them are at your highest BAB. That's pretty powerful. If you could then get your full iterative attack sequence with each natural weapon, why would anyone ever go any route other than natural weapons?
Pinky's brain 10-02-05, 02:48 PM	Do you know where I could find these Aberant feats? Also might it work to get more natural attacks if I went the monk route?No, the way I gave is the only way to get all your natural attacks as well as an iterative primary attack. I am just not seeing why there would be such a difference.Because you can use natural weapons as secondary attacks at nearly full BAB, without needing stuff like TWF or MWF. Lets say you get armor spikes (if you use power attack you might want large armor spikes, and perhaps monkey grip, so they are not light). You would get the following attack routine at 16 BAB ... spike / spike / spike / spike / claw / claw / bite.
Darkz0r 10-02-05, 03:08 PM	Rapid strike and IRS are from Draconomicon. You need to be Aberration, Half-Dragon or forgot what else to take it. RS gives you another attack at -5, so you get say +12 claw +12 claw +7 claw. IRS gives you 3 more, but you can only have 4 additional attacks. The feat description is a little off, so take a look at the "King of Smack" thread for some clarification. Im not sure why you took Multiattack either.. :confused:
X-Codes 10-02-05, 03:55 PM	Multiattack gives a +3 to all secondary natural weapon attack rolls. It's a good feat, considering the penalty. Improved Multiattack not so much, though, mostly for the same reason the Tempest class isn't widely taken.
Nifft 10-02-05, 08:03 PM	Let's see... most natural attacks I can get... Claw, Claw, Bite -> Natural, Wish or Grafts Aberrant Blood + Deepspawn (LoM) -> +2 tentacle rakes Stinging Tail (FF) Fiendish Graft -> +1 tail sting 6 attacks, not terrible. Anyone got more? (Ooo, and an obvious one: Aberrant Wildshape into a Grell. That would go nicely with some Sneak Attack dice.) -- N
Tweedledope 10-02-05, 08:18 PM	I know you've already gone the route of the Exalted Character but, you might want to see if your DM would allow you to adapt the Thayan Gladiator prestige class as something like a "Natural Gladiator" or something. It's virtually the only prestige class (aside from the Warshaper) that focuses solely on natural attacks. It's really pretty awesome and can be found within the Champions of Ruin. Again, though, it requires evil alignment but, it could be VERY easily modified. -=Tweedledope=-
Pinky's brain 10-02-05, 08:26 PM	6 attacks, not terrible. Anyone got more?A spellstoring weapon with arms of plenty would allow you to get 2 more for the cost of a single attack (on yourself). Aberration wildshape to a grell would leave you blind BTW :)
Nifft 10-02-05, 08:31 PM	A spellstoring weapon with arms of plenty would allow you to get 2 more for the cost of a single attack (on yourself). I don't know if I want to Armor Spike myself... :) -- N
Pinky's brain 10-02-05, 08:35 PM	Just strike yourself for 1 pt of non-lethal damage. (Glad someone at least registered the armor spikes suggestion :))
Jozell 10-02-05, 09:58 PM	Wow you guys are impressive. Ok so I have talked with the GM. He said I have claws on hands and bite and foot claws. So now I have 4 attacks with Rake if I can get two claws to hit. He let me change my greater magic fang I had to cast to amulets of natural attacks, sense we found those. He's really pretty flexable which is a God Send at times. I also talked him into modifying War Shaper, to get +2 caster levels in the 5 levels of War Shaper, by giving up all the BAB, and the Will and Fort saves but keeping everything else. So I think I am fairly set, I can get upto 5 attacks in a round with haste and will do like 2d6 damage with my bite and claws...Any feats you all can think of for me to take? I was thinking of taking Roll With It a few times to help my survivability.
Tempest Stormwind 10-02-05, 10:19 PM	If your DM is lenient, you can probably talk him into letting you take Monstrous feats, since you now have natural attacks not available to a normal member of your race. If that's the case, RAPIDSTRIKE (and IMPROVED rapidstrike, both from Draconomicon) might be open. IDHTBWM, though, so I can't be certain on the prerequisites.
Nifft 10-02-05, 10:20 PM	Aberration wildshape to a grell would leave you blind BTW :) Since we're already using LoMadness, might as well pick up a level of Mindbender and then the Mindsight feat. Helps in these situations. And, it's really creepy! (Just convince your DM that charm animal is sorta like charm person... :) Or, take the Extra Spell feat at 3rd level and choose charm person.) -- N
Nifft 10-02-05, 10:52 PM	I also talked him into modifying War Shaper, to get +2 caster levels in the 5 levels of War Shaper, by giving up all the BAB, and the Will and Fort saves but keeping everything else. So I think I am fairly set, I can get upto 5 attacks in a round with haste and will do like 2d6 damage with my bite and claws...Any feats you all can think of for me to take? I was thinking of taking Roll With It a few times to help my survivability. Why would you give up BAB and saves? Those are things you'll want later. When you charge in and Power Attack, your PA is limited by your BAB... so you want a good BAB (even if you don't care about +16 in particular). War Shaper is nice if you fight when Wild Shaped, but it sounds like you fight in your "natural" form, so it would not be a good class for you to take. Is your goal with this character to be the best melee monster you can be, or to be a spellcasting Druid? -- N
Jozell 10-02-05, 11:04 PM	I have a couple of things I want to do with this char. First I want to be able to cast 9th level Druid spells so when we go Epic I can get epic spells. Second I am the secondary tank/damage dealer in the group. From the way I read Warshaper you can give yourself claws when in any form...And if you already have claws or a bite in that form it gives you the weapon as if it's the next size catagory. So right now my claws are Large <Got enlarge person perminant> Then got improved natural weapon, so with Warshaper I would hit Huge claws and bite with improved natural claws. I am looking to do good damage BUT I am also only one of two Divine spell casters in a group of 6 and so I need all the spell casting I can gain.
Tweedledope 10-03-05, 01:06 PM	As stated earlier and IIRC, the benefits gained from Warshaper only work if you are not in your natural form. Since you have claw attacks, etc in your natural form you can't receive the benefits of Warshaper. -=Tweedledope=-