A question about the Precocious Apprentice feat in combination with dual-caster PrC's [Archive] - Wizards Community

A question about the Precocious Apprentice feat in combination with dual-caster PrC's [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Glimney
08-23-05, 10:31 PM So, here and there I heard rumors about the precocious apprentice feat being errated so that it can't be abused to enter, for example, the Mystic Theurge Prestige Class.

I've looked over the offical errata files for the 3.5 DMG and Complete Arcane, and I've searched myself senseless in the messy mesh of CO link libraries and faq's, which only increased my curiosity.

Now it's way over bedtime, I'm hungry and I'm pretty desperate and irritated (hence my rudeness in here, sorry for that) I couldn't find an answer to such a simple question. So I signed up at the boards (only used to lurk a bit, not very regularly) and asked:

What's the deal with Precocious Apprentice not filling the requirements for certain prestige classes?

I might've overlooked something, but after all my doublechecking I doubt it. So if you do link me to a remote, forgotten thread, please also indicate how I might've found it, so that I can do a better effort at finding stuffs :(
Caelic
08-23-05, 10:40 PM It's not that it's been errataed...it hasn't, although the designers have stated repeatedly that it wasn't meant to qualify.

What has happened, however, is that it has been proven not to work as written for dual-advancement classes like Mystic Theurge.

The gist of it is this: when you gain the ability to cast second level spells, you lose the second-level arcane slot granted by Precocious Apprentice. The feat does not differentiate between divine and arcane spells in this case. Thus, when you gain the ability to cast second level divine spells thanks to Mystic Theurge, you lose the second-level arcane slot--and thus no longer qualify for Mystic Theurge.
Tempest Stormwind
08-23-05, 10:46 PM What, exactly, do you mean? As in, "what's the problem with letting it?", "why doesn't it work, rules as written, when qualifying for dual-casters?" or "has it been eratta'd yet?"

The answers are, respectively:

1) Early entry is always a big thing, particularily when every level gives two caster levels (very important to things like ur-priest).

2) Because you gain second level spells from your non-arcane class first, which nulls the "you gain a second-level spell slot" half of Precocious Apprentice (kudos to Mommy was an Orc on spelling it out clearly for all of us). It only remains in two cases -- the Cerebremancer (which grants manifestation of psionic powers, not casting of spells) and non-dual-casters (most evident in DisposableHero's recent find on the first-level Eldritch Knight qualification).

EDIT -- Caelic's example is spot-on, except replace the second-last mention of "Mystic Theurge" with "any base divine class". In other words, fine, you're a Wiz 1 with Precocious Apprentice. When you gain 3 levels in Cleric, you get the required 2nd-level Divine spells, but lose your 2nd-level Arcane spells.

3) No, it hasn't been officially eratta'd, although it's been clarified multiple times along the lines of "it doesn't help you qualify for PrCs". Their reasons vary from the intention argument ("I don't think that's what the original designer intended, and it's not what I intend") to the inane ("You can't cast more than one 2nd-level spell, so you can't cast 2nd-level spells").
Glimney
08-23-05, 10:47 PM Ah, thanks for clearing that up.
runestar
08-24-05, 02:58 AM However I read the feat desc, it works for purposes of qualifying for prcs like spellsword or cerebremancer. EK requires 3rd lv spells, so no skimping there. :( The explanation, while the most "logical" of all I have seen, still does not work for cerebremancer. As of the moment, we only have the word of the game designer that it doesn't work that way because its not supposed to. :rolleyes: Methinks its a design oversight of some sort, though a simple rewording of the feat/errata would certainly put an end to all this debate. Until then, do what you will.
Tempest Stormwind
08-24-05, 11:33 AM However I read the feat desc, it works for purposes of qualifying for prcs like spellsword or cerebremancer. EK requires 3rd lv spells, so no skimping there. :( The explanation, while the most "logical" of all I have seen, still does not work for cerebremancer. As of the moment, we only have the word of the game designer that it doesn't work that way because its not supposed to. :rolleyes: Methinks its a design oversight of some sort, though a simple rewording of the feat/errata would certainly put an end to all this debate. Until then, do what you will.

Cerebremancer works where Theurges do not because you never gain 2nd level spells from your second base class.

And the EK entry thing involves a Krau sigil Illuminan with Militia and Improved Sigil (Krau: whatever spell you chose for Precocious Apprentice). You are now proficient with all martial weapons, and can cast 3rd level spells, at level 1. Booyah, EK at level 2.
Dark Kyosuke
08-24-05, 11:43 AM And the EK entry thing involves a Krau sigil Illuminan with Militia and Improved Sigil (Krau: whatever spell you chose for Precocious Apprentice). You are now proficient with all martial weapons, and can cast 3rd level spells, at level 1. Booyah, EK at level 2.

:blink: You really CAN do anything in this game if you add enough splatbooks! :blink:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Glimney 08-23-05, 10:31 PM	So, here and there I heard rumors about the precocious apprentice feat being errated so that it can't be abused to enter, for example, the Mystic Theurge Prestige Class. I've looked over the offical errata files for the 3.5 DMG and Complete Arcane, and I've searched myself senseless in the messy mesh of CO link libraries and faq's, which only increased my curiosity. Now it's way over bedtime, I'm hungry and I'm pretty desperate and irritated (hence my rudeness in here, sorry for that) I couldn't find an answer to such a simple question. So I signed up at the boards (only used to lurk a bit, not very regularly) and asked: What's the deal with Precocious Apprentice not filling the requirements for certain prestige classes? I might've overlooked something, but after all my doublechecking I doubt it. So if you do link me to a remote, forgotten thread, please also indicate how I might've found it, so that I can do a better effort at finding stuffs :(
Caelic 08-23-05, 10:40 PM	It's not that it's been errataed...it hasn't, although the designers have stated repeatedly that it wasn't meant to qualify. What has happened, however, is that it has been proven not to work as written for dual-advancement classes like Mystic Theurge. The gist of it is this: when you gain the ability to cast second level spells, you lose the second-level arcane slot granted by Precocious Apprentice. The feat does not differentiate between divine and arcane spells in this case. Thus, when you gain the ability to cast second level divine spells thanks to Mystic Theurge, you lose the second-level arcane slot--and thus no longer qualify for Mystic Theurge.
Tempest Stormwind 08-23-05, 10:46 PM	What, exactly, do you mean? As in, "what's the problem with letting it?", "why doesn't it work, rules as written, when qualifying for dual-casters?" or "has it been eratta'd yet?" The answers are, respectively: 1) Early entry is always a big thing, particularily when every level gives two caster levels (very important to things like ur-priest). 2) Because you gain second level spells from your non-arcane class first, which nulls the "you gain a second-level spell slot" half of Precocious Apprentice (kudos to Mommy was an Orc on spelling it out clearly for all of us). It only remains in two cases -- the Cerebremancer (which grants manifestation of psionic powers, not casting of spells) and non-dual-casters (most evident in DisposableHero's recent find on the first-level Eldritch Knight qualification). EDIT -- Caelic's example is spot-on, except replace the second-last mention of "Mystic Theurge" with "any base divine class". In other words, fine, you're a Wiz 1 with Precocious Apprentice. When you gain 3 levels in Cleric, you get the required 2nd-level Divine spells, but lose your 2nd-level Arcane spells. 3) No, it hasn't been officially eratta'd, although it's been clarified multiple times along the lines of "it doesn't help you qualify for PrCs". Their reasons vary from the intention argument ("I don't think that's what the original designer intended, and it's not what I intend") to the inane ("You can't cast more than one 2nd-level spell, so you can't cast 2nd-level spells").
Glimney 08-23-05, 10:47 PM	Ah, thanks for clearing that up.
runestar 08-24-05, 02:58 AM	However I read the feat desc, it works for purposes of qualifying for prcs like spellsword or cerebremancer. EK requires 3rd lv spells, so no skimping there. :( The explanation, while the most "logical" of all I have seen, still does not work for cerebremancer. As of the moment, we only have the word of the game designer that it doesn't work that way because its not supposed to. :rolleyes: Methinks its a design oversight of some sort, though a simple rewording of the feat/errata would certainly put an end to all this debate. Until then, do what you will.
Tempest Stormwind 08-24-05, 11:33 AM	However I read the feat desc, it works for purposes of qualifying for prcs like spellsword or cerebremancer. EK requires 3rd lv spells, so no skimping there. :( The explanation, while the most "logical" of all I have seen, still does not work for cerebremancer. As of the moment, we only have the word of the game designer that it doesn't work that way because its not supposed to. :rolleyes: Methinks its a design oversight of some sort, though a simple rewording of the feat/errata would certainly put an end to all this debate. Until then, do what you will. Cerebremancer works where Theurges do not because you never gain 2nd level spells from your second base class. And the EK entry thing involves a Krau sigil Illuminan with Militia and Improved Sigil (Krau: whatever spell you chose for Precocious Apprentice). You are now proficient with all martial weapons, and can cast 3rd level spells, at level 1. Booyah, EK at level 2.
Dark Kyosuke 08-24-05, 11:43 AM	And the EK entry thing involves a Krau sigil Illuminan with Militia and Improved Sigil (Krau: whatever spell you chose for Precocious Apprentice). You are now proficient with all martial weapons, and can cast 3rd level spells, at level 1. Booyah, EK at level 2. :blink: You really CAN do anything in this game if you add enough splatbooks! :blink: