A question, if you will [Archive] - Wizards Community

A question, if you will [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Thraat
12-12-06, 06:34 PM Hello Board Optimizers, Lurkers, Trolls, and any one else not mentioned.

This is the best place to pose the question of different builds and such, I was hoping for some helpful tips and revisions if you would be kind enough to provide them or if you have the free time to spare.

My build provided does go over 20th level, now now, hear me out, I do require help with the first 20 levels, it is a gestalt build, I know not many of you like those but please bear with me on this?

One side is a non-negiotable Erudite, a psion varient found in CPsi, I probably will guess that not many of you will like that, but it is what I have decided for that one side.

For the other side this was what I was thinking, but I don't wish to be an undead:

Ability Scores: Assume 18's

Race: Elan (Undead/Grim Psion)

Class:Shadow Caster 5/Grim Psion 10/(Wizard/Sorcerer class) 3/Shadow Caster 2/epic/Shadow Caster 13/Soulknife 7

Non-Epic Feats
enhanced elan resilience (flaw 1b),
elan retainment (flaw 1b),
alertness (psicrys),
psicrystal Affinity (1b),
(used for encode stone) imprint stone (1b),
overchannel (1),
extend mystery (2b),
talented (3),
improved psicrystal (5b),
psicrystal containment (6),
7,
psionic meditation (9),
burrowing power (10b),
quicken power (12),
still mystery (14b),
maximize power (15b),
delay power (15),
line of shadow (16b),
18 (18),
psicrystal containment (20b),
wild talent (34b),
Epic Feats
21 (21),
23b (23b),
improved overchannel (24),
26b (26b),
27 (27),
29b (29b),
30 (30),
32b (32b),
33 (33),
35b (35b),
epic manifestation (36),
38b (38b),
permanent emanation (energy nullification field) (39),

Base Attack and Base Saves: BAB +17, Fort +17, Ref +10, Will +25

I wish to keep a psionic flavor and a bit of mystery to it, but this is the build that I have come up with and I do want to get rid of Grim Psion if at all possible, but I am not sure what to replace it with.

If the boards of optimization can help me with this, I would be most grateful.

Review of What I am Asking

What classes should I take for the second side?
What feats would be better choices than the ones listed?

Again, thank you for your time and effort that you have given to this Thread.
Thraat
12-12-06, 06:37 PM Every 3rd Ed, 3.5 Ed, book available, All Eberron books available, and only Player's Guide to Faerun and FR: Campaign Setting books

These are the books that are available, no dragon magazines either.
GaffeR
12-12-06, 06:43 PM Any reason for the Shadow Caster? Everything I've heard on them tells me they suck.

Where/what is the Grim Psion? I'm curious as to how you're getting 17 BAB.

If I were doing a Psion 20// I'd probably throw Warblade on the other side.

Sorry if I'm not of much aid, this stuff is unfamiliar to me.
Thraat
12-12-06, 06:49 PM Grim Psion can be found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030628b)

Shadow Caster was more for mystery, fluff, and something new.

I chose Erudite because it can basically learn every power, is the way I understood the description in CPsi.

A BAB of 17, taking Grim Psion at 5th level, it has a poor BAB, Erudite has a poor BAB, so every odd and even level for 10 levels gains a bonus to BAB, then finishing off with the other said classes, rises it sufficiently to that BAB of +17.

It's easier to see in Excel than it is for myself to explain it I think.

Thank you, though
DaveTheMagicWeasel
12-12-06, 07:00 PM Grim Psion can be found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030628b)

Shadow Caster was more for mystery, fluff, and something new.

I chose Erudite because it can basically learn every power, is the way I understood the description in CPsi.

A BAB of 17, taking Grim Psion at 5th level, it has a poor BAB, Erudite has a poor BAB, so every odd and even level for 10 levels gains a bonus to BAB, then finishing off with the other said classes, rises it sufficiently to that BAB of +17.

It's easier to see in Excel than it is for myself to explain it I think.

Thank you, though

Most gestalt games I've heard of use Fractional BAB to prevent that exact trick. But if your DM lets you then go for it I suppose.

Not got CPsi on me at minute, just remind me what ability score Erudite works off of?

And as said, Shadowcaster is really weak by all accounts (including the guy who designed the class). If its mysterious flavour you want then Binder is a lot better choice optimization-wise.
Thraat
12-12-06, 07:06 PM Most gestalt games I've heard of use Fractional BAB to prevent that exact trick. But if your DM lets you then go for it I suppose.

Not got CPsi on me at minute, just remind me what ability score Erudite works off of?

And as said, Shadowcaster is really weak by all accounts (including the guy who designed the class). If its mysterious flavour you want then Binder is a lot better choice optimization-wise.

Erudite works off of Int
Shadow Caster, it was something different to try
Thraat
12-12-06, 10:27 PM :help: :bump: :help:
Diplominator
12-12-06, 11:25 PM Most gestalt games I've heard of use Fractional BAB to prevent that exact trick. But if your DM lets you then go for it I suppose.

Not got CPsi on me at minute, just remind me what ability score Erudite works off of?

And as said, Shadowcaster is really weak by all accounts (including the guy who designed the class). If its mysterious flavour you want then Binder is a lot better choice optimization-wise.
Really? I've always seen the Shadowcaster as viable, if a bit limited in scope and mutli-classability, and the binder as fantastically underpowered. Odd.
X-Codes
12-12-06, 11:33 PM Wait 24 hours between bumps.

From what I can tell, you are radically overestimating your BAB, Saves, etc.

Second, you are blending 3.0 psionics and 3.5 psionics. Considering the changes, you're going to have to explain just how your DM is allowing the class to play.

Third, you are taking non-epic class levels post-epic. Thats almost always bad.

Fourth, none of this actually matters, since you're an Epic Spllcaster and/or Manifester. It doesn't exactly matter how you build your character, it's going to rock hardcore if played right.
Thraat
12-13-06, 12:27 AM Wait 24 hours between bumps.

From what I can tell, you are radically overestimating your BAB, Saves, etc.

Second, you are blending 3.0 psionics and 3.5 psionics. Considering the changes, you're going to have to explain just how your DM is allowing the class to play.

Third, you are taking non-epic class levels post-epic. Thats almost always bad.

Fourth, none of this actually matters, since you're an Epic Spllcaster and/or Manifester. It doesn't exactly matter how you build your character, it's going to rock hardcore if played right.

1) The saves and base attack are not using the variant rule for gestalting characters, the fractional system. I'd have to get the book out to double check, but I did see it in a sidebar.

2) The DM is allowing the characters because there is only two and we want to have fun with the campaign to see what we can do with such characters. Also, there wasn't, or I haven't found, an update to the grim psion, hence whay I have asked for the help of this board to take care of that little slight.

3) Again, it is why I have asked for the help of this board to help me correct some mistakes and to "optimize" it a bit better, I guess. My first thought on this character was to do a Erudite//Psion (any), but, I wanted something else instead, and the mess can be seen above.

4) It does matter, at least to me. And it will be an epic caster, though if one notes the level at which Epic Manifestation was taken (similar to Epic Spellcasting for arcane/divine) it won't be "rockin' hardcore" until then.

Thank you though, and I do hope to see more posts coming in..
X-Codes
12-13-06, 02:09 AM We don't do 3.0 to 3.5 updates here. Thats your DM's job. We work with the rules as presented, and since theres a rule conflict here we need your DM's input in order to know whats actually going on.
Thraat
12-13-06, 03:07 AM We don't do 3.0 to 3.5 updates here. Thats your DM's job. We work with the rules as presented, and since theres a rule conflict here we need your DM's input in order to know whats actually going on.

Then... to take care of that little slight... would it not be best to get rid of.. it?

Which is a reason why, I also came to the boards to gain insight in what to replace it with...

Thank you again though, if I sound patronizing, I do not mean to sound so, the problem has been addressed by me earlier and I was hoping for more.. umm.. how should I say... creative input...

Thank you.
Thraat
12-13-06, 03:58 PM Hmm.. back a few pages.. although this is a bump..

I would have liked to see 4 board members try to help, well, 3 to help, 1 to defend a class...

Thanks again
Thraat
12-14-06, 01:51 PM Does anyone have suggestions that could replace the second side of the gestalt build for the first 20 levels?

Erudite//(something else)

Thanks

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thraat 12-12-06, 06:34 PM	Hello Board Optimizers, Lurkers, Trolls, and any one else not mentioned. This is the best place to pose the question of different builds and such, I was hoping for some helpful tips and revisions if you would be kind enough to provide them or if you have the free time to spare. My build provided does go over 20th level, now now, hear me out, I do require help with the first 20 levels, it is a gestalt build, I know not many of you like those but please bear with me on this? One side is a non-negiotable Erudite, a psion varient found in CPsi, I probably will guess that not many of you will like that, but it is what I have decided for that one side. For the other side this was what I was thinking, but I don't wish to be an undead: Ability Scores: Assume 18's Race: Elan (Undead/Grim Psion) Class:Shadow Caster 5/Grim Psion 10/(Wizard/Sorcerer class) 3/Shadow Caster 2/epic/Shadow Caster 13/Soulknife 7 Non-Epic Feats enhanced elan resilience (flaw 1b), elan retainment (flaw 1b), alertness (psicrys), psicrystal Affinity (1b), (used for encode stone) imprint stone (1b), overchannel (1), extend mystery (2b), talented (3), improved psicrystal (5b), psicrystal containment (6), 7, psionic meditation (9), burrowing power (10b), quicken power (12), still mystery (14b), maximize power (15b), delay power (15), line of shadow (16b), 18 (18), psicrystal containment (20b), wild talent (34b), Epic Feats 21 (21), 23b (23b), improved overchannel (24), 26b (26b), 27 (27), 29b (29b), 30 (30), 32b (32b), 33 (33), 35b (35b), epic manifestation (36), 38b (38b), permanent emanation (energy nullification field) (39), Base Attack and Base Saves: BAB +17, Fort +17, Ref +10, Will +25 I wish to keep a psionic flavor and a bit of mystery to it, but this is the build that I have come up with and I do want to get rid of Grim Psion if at all possible, but I am not sure what to replace it with. If the boards of optimization can help me with this, I would be most grateful. Review of What I am Asking What classes should I take for the second side? What feats would be better choices than the ones listed? Again, thank you for your time and effort that you have given to this Thread.
Thraat 12-12-06, 06:37 PM	Every 3rd Ed, 3.5 Ed, book available, All Eberron books available, and only Player's Guide to Faerun and FR: Campaign Setting books These are the books that are available, no dragon magazines either.
GaffeR 12-12-06, 06:43 PM	Any reason for the Shadow Caster? Everything I've heard on them tells me they suck. Where/what is the Grim Psion? I'm curious as to how you're getting 17 BAB. If I were doing a Psion 20// I'd probably throw Warblade on the other side. Sorry if I'm not of much aid, this stuff is unfamiliar to me.
Thraat 12-12-06, 06:49 PM	Grim Psion can be found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030628b) Shadow Caster was more for mystery, fluff, and something new. I chose Erudite because it can basically learn every power, is the way I understood the description in CPsi. A BAB of 17, taking Grim Psion at 5th level, it has a poor BAB, Erudite has a poor BAB, so every odd and even level for 10 levels gains a bonus to BAB, then finishing off with the other said classes, rises it sufficiently to that BAB of +17. It's easier to see in Excel than it is for myself to explain it I think. Thank you, though
DaveTheMagicWeasel 12-12-06, 07:00 PM	Grim Psion can be found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030628b) Shadow Caster was more for mystery, fluff, and something new. I chose Erudite because it can basically learn every power, is the way I understood the description in CPsi. A BAB of 17, taking Grim Psion at 5th level, it has a poor BAB, Erudite has a poor BAB, so every odd and even level for 10 levels gains a bonus to BAB, then finishing off with the other said classes, rises it sufficiently to that BAB of +17. It's easier to see in Excel than it is for myself to explain it I think. Thank you, though Most gestalt games I've heard of use Fractional BAB to prevent that exact trick. But if your DM lets you then go for it I suppose. Not got CPsi on me at minute, just remind me what ability score Erudite works off of? And as said, Shadowcaster is really weak by all accounts (including the guy who designed the class). If its mysterious flavour you want then Binder is a lot better choice optimization-wise.
Thraat 12-12-06, 07:06 PM	Most gestalt games I've heard of use Fractional BAB to prevent that exact trick. But if your DM lets you then go for it I suppose. Not got CPsi on me at minute, just remind me what ability score Erudite works off of? And as said, Shadowcaster is really weak by all accounts (including the guy who designed the class). If its mysterious flavour you want then Binder is a lot better choice optimization-wise. Erudite works off of Int Shadow Caster, it was something different to try
Thraat 12-12-06, 10:27 PM	:help: :bump: :help:
Diplominator 12-12-06, 11:25 PM	Most gestalt games I've heard of use Fractional BAB to prevent that exact trick. But if your DM lets you then go for it I suppose. Not got CPsi on me at minute, just remind me what ability score Erudite works off of? And as said, Shadowcaster is really weak by all accounts (including the guy who designed the class). If its mysterious flavour you want then Binder is a lot better choice optimization-wise. Really? I've always seen the Shadowcaster as viable, if a bit limited in scope and mutli-classability, and the binder as fantastically underpowered. Odd.
X-Codes 12-12-06, 11:33 PM	Wait 24 hours between bumps. From what I can tell, you are radically overestimating your BAB, Saves, etc. Second, you are blending 3.0 psionics and 3.5 psionics. Considering the changes, you're going to have to explain just how your DM is allowing the class to play. Third, you are taking non-epic class levels post-epic. Thats almost always bad. Fourth, none of this actually matters, since you're an Epic Spllcaster and/or Manifester. It doesn't exactly matter how you build your character, it's going to rock hardcore if played right.
Thraat 12-13-06, 12:27 AM	Wait 24 hours between bumps. From what I can tell, you are radically overestimating your BAB, Saves, etc. Second, you are blending 3.0 psionics and 3.5 psionics. Considering the changes, you're going to have to explain just how your DM is allowing the class to play. Third, you are taking non-epic class levels post-epic. Thats almost always bad. Fourth, none of this actually matters, since you're an Epic Spllcaster and/or Manifester. It doesn't exactly matter how you build your character, it's going to rock hardcore if played right. 1) The saves and base attack are not using the variant rule for gestalting characters, the fractional system. I'd have to get the book out to double check, but I did see it in a sidebar. 2) The DM is allowing the characters because there is only two and we want to have fun with the campaign to see what we can do with such characters. Also, there wasn't, or I haven't found, an update to the grim psion, hence whay I have asked for the help of this board to take care of that little slight. 3) Again, it is why I have asked for the help of this board to help me correct some mistakes and to "optimize" it a bit better, I guess. My first thought on this character was to do a Erudite//Psion (any), but, I wanted something else instead, and the mess can be seen above. 4) It does matter, at least to me. And it will be an epic caster, though if one notes the level at which Epic Manifestation was taken (similar to Epic Spellcasting for arcane/divine) it won't be "rockin' hardcore" until then. Thank you though, and I do hope to see more posts coming in..
X-Codes 12-13-06, 02:09 AM	We don't do 3.0 to 3.5 updates here. Thats your DM's job. We work with the rules as presented, and since theres a rule conflict here we need your DM's input in order to know whats actually going on.
Thraat 12-13-06, 03:07 AM	We don't do 3.0 to 3.5 updates here. Thats your DM's job. We work with the rules as presented, and since theres a rule conflict here we need your DM's input in order to know whats actually going on. Then... to take care of that little slight... would it not be best to get rid of.. it? Which is a reason why, I also came to the boards to gain insight in what to replace it with... Thank you again though, if I sound patronizing, I do not mean to sound so, the problem has been addressed by me earlier and I was hoping for more.. umm.. how should I say... creative input... Thank you.
Thraat 12-13-06, 03:58 PM	Hmm.. back a few pages.. although this is a bump.. I would have liked to see 4 board members try to help, well, 3 to help, 1 to defend a class... Thanks again
Thraat 12-14-06, 01:51 PM	Does anyone have suggestions that could replace the second side of the gestalt build for the first 20 levels? Erudite//(something else) Thanks