Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Baneslayer 02-10-05, 03:08 AM	This may be a dumb question, but are the Fighter's Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization really worth the trouble? Do they narrow a fighter's focus too much, penalizing one greatly in less than optimal situations? Or are they the only thing worth taking a Fighter to 12 for and an absolute MUST HAVE for Fighter builds? A little background on my questions: I'm in the middle of working on designing the future path of my Fighter who already has Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec: Scythe. One of the Feats I want to incorporate into the build is Sense Weakness from the Draconomicon, which bypasses the first 5 points of Hardness or Damage Reduction when attacking with a weapon you have taken Weapon Focus for. The current build only has the Scythe qualifying for the feat, good when I can bring the Scythe to bear but still feeling somewhat limited in scope. So now I'm torn, on the one hand I can take GWF and GWS and really be an excellent Scythe swinger by Fighter 12. Or I can take WF and WS on a second weapon, like Composite Longbow, to be really, really good with two different weapons and have two attack modes that the SW feat will apply to when I take it as my normal Feat at 12. I guess the question is does not taking GWF and GWS nullify part of the reason for being a fighter in the first place? What say ye learned gentlemen and ladies of the Forum?
Kintara 02-10-05, 03:27 AM	I would say that it's a trick question. An optimizer would never take 12 levels in Fighter. ;) Personally, I like them, but I wouldn't say they are necessary. Whether they are restrictive depends largely on how your DM works. If your DM tends to make it difficult to buy magic items, and easier to find them, then keeping your options open makes sense. Taking Weapon Focus in a ranged weapon and a melee weapon isn't a terrible idea, and you should have plenty of feats to take them all if you want. Anyway, though, I'm kind of serious about the whole not taking 12 levels of Fighter. It's not that I wouldn't do it, but from a strict optimization standpoint I'd say that finding a good PrC, or even multiclassing into another core class, might benefit more. If you're sticking with Fighter to level 12 specifically because you want the option of Greater Weapon Specialization, then I'll tell you that that isn't much. The only real reason an optimizer (who is optimizing all the way) would take only fighter levels would be for a ridiculously feat intensive build, and there are only a couple builds that fit the bill (and many would probably argue that some multiclassing would probably help even then).
FabulousRex 02-10-05, 03:28 AM	One of the few good things about being a Fighter is that you can easily afford to expand your repotoire of weapons/manuvers/tactics. That's what you've got all those bonus feats for, anyhow! Remember also that just by virtue of being a Fighter, you're much better at melee combat than almost any other core class. You don't really need to spend more feats on to-hit and damage, I wouldn't even bother taking WF/WS for a ranged weapon. If you really want to be a better Archer, Point Blank/Rapid/Precise Shot feats are far superior. In short, use those feats you've got to gain more combat uses than swinging your Scythe. It's good to have a 'favored' weapon, but at the higher levels, you really do need to use those feats to make yourself a more competant warrior, not a better weapon-swinger.
Elgonn 02-10-05, 03:29 AM	I'd say the answer is that it isn't that the greater versions are that bad. It is the fact that 12 levels of Fighter is awful. Usually as a Fighter it is worth picking up feats that grant new options or abilities rather than nominal bonuses.
GrolubFranco 02-10-05, 03:54 AM	Weapon Focus is good in early levels but useless at middle and later levels. Normally itīs taken in order to meet the prerequisites of many Prestige Classes. Weapon Specialization is only good if you plan on having lotīs of attacks, using for example the Two Weapon Fighting tree.
preacher of nothing 02-10-05, 04:20 AM	As GrolubFranco said, Weapon Focus is a good feat for fighters to have because: 1. It's helpful at low levels (when you'll be taking it) 2. It's a requirement for many combat-oriented prestige classes Weapon Specialization and Greater weapon specialization OTOH aren't worth it IMO. There are PrC's that'll help much more and in more possible situations. 3 levels of Hexblade for example will give you mettle and Arcane Resistance (core class), 3 levels of swashbuckler will give you intelligence bonus to damage, etc. etc. To me, 3 more points of damage != mettle,arcane resistance, int to damage... ~preacher~
PhoenixInferno 02-10-05, 11:27 AM	To be the devil's advocate here, Weapon Focus has uses for Frenzied Berserkers - you can use that extra +1 to squeeze out more damage. Weapon Specialization is another way to add additional damage for TWF fighting builds. Regardless, they're generally not good feats because you'll want to be able to remain flexible.
Iaimeki 02-10-05, 12:44 PM	The problem with Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization? A level of barbarian + Extra Rage works out to +2/+2 to all melee weapons 3/day, which is usually enough for most situations with any decent Con; if your DM likes to run you ragged, Extra Rage x2 is still no more feats than Greater Weapon Focus + Greater Weapon Specialization, gives a higher bonus, and works on all melee weapons. Meanwhile, the barbarian level only costs one level (as opposed to two per fighter feat, after fighter 1 and 2) and also gives you fast movement, more skill points, a larger hit die, and a bonus to your Fort save. This is usually a far better option than taking fighter high enough to get the other feats.
Baneslayer 02-10-05, 01:24 PM	You guys pretty much confirmed it for me, thanks!
Kintara 02-10-05, 01:34 PM	As GrolubFranco said, Weapon Focus is a good feat for fighters to have because: 1. It's helpful at low levels (when you'll be taking it) 2. It's a requirement for many combat-oriented prestige classes Weapon Specialization and Greater weapon specialization OTOH aren't worth it IMO. There are PrC's that'll help much more and in more possible situations. 3 levels of Hexblade for example will give you mettle and Arcane Resistance (core class), 3 levels of swashbuckler will give you intelligence bonus to damage, etc. etc. To me, 3 more points of damage != mettle,arcane resistance, int to damage... ~preacher~To be fair, Int to damage is precision based, needs a light weapon, and creates MAD issues. Arcane Resistance also has MAD issues, and Hexblades are limited in alignment.
frisbeet 02-10-05, 01:40 PM	screw everyone who cops out with "12 levels of fighter is bad" what a load of crap for the rest of us who which optimized characters but with restrictions: sure, if your DM lets you be anything under the sun, go ahead, be a warshaped warforged frenzied mountaingoat half dragon paragon druid. I'd be many more of us are restricted, either by our DM, or our own good sense of Fantasy. This shouldn't exclude us from the optimization board. What's wrong with playing a human? (because player imagines himself as character, perhaps. As opposed to an ferral insectthing). What's wrong maxing damage for a dude who can't transform like plasticman into a bear? (because player doesn't like concept). What's wrong with not being an FB (no DM allows this in the RW--oh, sorry reader, you're the 1st)? Any of you shmos know what the most insiteful thing WotC changed with 3.0 & 3.5? 5 letters w/ plural: Feats. The more, the better. [/rant] When search is up again I'll repost my gibberish about gwf and gws. They're ok for max damage types, though there are a lot of perhaps better options.
preacher of nothing 02-10-05, 01:48 PM	To be fair, Int to damage is precision based, True...i don't see a problem with that. needs a light weapon, True again, which you'll most likely have in order to Weapon Finesse it. and creates MAD issues. True. However, would you pay 4 FEATS for a +3 to damage with ONE SINGLE WEAPON, or 3 levels for intelligence bonus to damage with all light weapons as well as any other weapon that can be finessed? (such as whip, rapier, etc.) Arcane Resistance also has MAD issues The point you're missing is that these classes, offer full BAB, and goodies such as Arcane Resistance and Mettle. Even if your charisma is 12, that's a +1 to all saves vs. spells and SLA's. and Hexblades are limited in alignment. To tell you the truth, i'd like to see a worldwide poll about how many people actually mind the non-good issue......i doubt there would be many. Of course, this is all hypothesis, and there will be people that will be disturbed by it. All in all, my general conclusion isn;t that you should adopt the Hexblade or Swashbuckler classes, but rather that those feats can be put to better use, and that other classes exist that will make that tree of feats obsolete. ~preacher~
Kintara 02-10-05, 02:17 PM	True...i don't see a problem with that. True again, which you'll most likely have in order to Weapon Finesse it. True. However, would you pay 4 FEATS for a +3 to damage with ONE SINGLE WEAPON, or 3 levels for intelligence bonus to damage with all light weapons as well as any other weapon that can be finessed? (such as whip, rapier, etc.) The point you're missing is that these classes, offer full BAB, and goodies such as Arcane Resistance and Mettle. Even if your charisma is 12, that's a +1 to all saves vs. spells and SLA's. To tell you the truth, i'd like to see a worldwide poll about how many people actually mind the non-good issue......i doubt there would be many. Of course, this is all hypothesis, and there will be people that will be disturbed by it. All in all, my general conclusion isn;t that you should adopt the Hexblade or Swashbuckler classes, but rather that those feats can be put to better use, and that other classes exist that will make that tree of feats obsolete. ~preacher~"Precision based" damage means that the damage simply won't apply to many creatures. It's like Sneak Attack damage, useless against undead and constructs (among others). Weapon Specialization and Greater WS give you +2 damage each (I'm not sure what you mean by +3), and you can apply it to a wider selection of possible weapons like the bastard sword. Plus, the damage will apply to any enemy, as long as you're using the proper weapon. I don't really think sticking to one sort of weapon is much of a big deal in D&D because high level warriors dump a very large sum of gold on their primary weapon anyway, probably more gold than most enemies will drop into their weapons. Right now, I'm playing a gestalt fighter/ranger, mostly because I found it amusing to have so many feats, and I'm shooting for Tempest. I've taken Oversized TWF, and I'm using bastard swords. The Tempest does actually increase the effectiveness/flexibility of the fighter feats by allowing you to apply the benefits to your other weapon, whatever that is. And since I'm fighting with two weapons, I can get a lot of use out of the bonus attack and damage. I threw together the character on a whim, and I won't presume to say that it's all that optimized (No spellcasting?! One PrC?! Insanity... ;)), but the Weapon Focus tree isn't so terribly bad, especially for the right builds.
Jeremymc 02-10-05, 02:41 PM	Yah, I'm the first to admit that the plain old fighter is great. I love it. The only problem is that, as with so many other things, they designed the class very well on paper, but then seem to have stopped the playtesting at about 10th level. The fighter is vastly underpowered when compared with such brutal monstrosities as the Primaeval and the FB. In fact, I'd argue that though the fighter CLASS is not underpowered, the FEATS they designed for it ARE. At 12th level, a character should be granted FAR more than an extra +2 damage. It's ridiculous to think that when teh monsters have graduated from 1d8 claw damage to 3d8+13 claw damage with a 2d8+13 rend, that your piddly +2 will keep up. They should give the fighter class TWO FEATS, one called "Weapon Focus" and one called "Weapon Specialization", which are CLASS LEVEL PROGRESSIVE, and whose bonuses go up along with your Fighter level. It's ridiculous to blow 4 whole feats on a +2/+4 abilitt. Although Greater Weapon Specialization is not bad, because the damage it grants is applicable to EVERY monster, at ALL times. Constructs, undead, oozes, melee, thrown melee, ranged melee... And a +2 to damage may not seem like much, but it's like having a +4 added on to your strength score, or having a +5 sword instead of a +3 one. If you add enough +1s and +2s, soon you'll have a +12. And given the fighter's enormous choice in feats, he can afford to take all the extra feats no one else can. Like he can have both the TWF tree and the Whirlwind Attack tree, or both the TWF tree and the whole Combat Brute/Shock Trooper combination. Frankly, I'm trying to make a feasible build out of Fighter/Tactical Fighter. I like the idea of the Tactical Fighter, especially that ability that gives him +4/+4 to his attacks, but makes every hit against him a critical... If you wear armour of fortification, or a ring of blinking, it negates that. +4/+4 for FREE. Very cool. The only problem is it takes 4 or 5 levels to get there. Boo.
UMiskatonic 02-10-05, 02:54 PM	Fighter 12 isn't all bad, though I admit two bad saves is a pain. What's tough are the feats you have to choose from. I'd say that feats fall into three categories. Level independent-Improved Initiative It's always an advantage to go first Favoring low level-Weapon Focus + 1 to hit is HUGE when you are only at +4 overall. At higher levels, the fighter 12 WILL hit you, +1 or not. Favoring high level-Power Attack. Trading +1 to hit for + 2 damage at first level isn't a lot of damage, and could mean that you miss. At high levels, You can hit people really hard. I think the poster's difficulty is that he's still thinking like a 1st level fighter. For a 12th level fighter, there are still great feats out there. Power Attack and Cleave will allow you do do much more damage than a measly +2. Iron Will might save your bacon. The complete books have even better stuff, like shock trooper and leap attack. Enjoy.
Elgonn 02-10-05, 02:55 PM	Frankly, I'm trying to make a feasible build out of Fighter/Tactical Fighter. I like the idea of the Tactical Fighter, especially that ability that gives him +4/+4 to his attacks, but makes every hit against him a critical... First it is a Tactical Soldier PrC. Secondly it doesn't autocrit. All hits are considered threats. Quite a difference. That exact PrC though has Sidestep which puts the entire greater focus/spec line to shame. It is feats like that you'll want to get. Not nominal increases to something he is already good at.
Jeremymc 02-10-05, 03:26 PM	Okay... Uh... first off, I don't really care what the proper name of the class is right now. I'll worry about that when I'm sitting in front of the book. And sure, auto threat instead of auto crit. EVEN better. Whoop dee doo! It still means that any confirmed critical is negated by the armour/ring. Thirdly, Sidestep isn't the be-all and end-all of abilities. Sure it's good, but what does it do? You get to take another 5 ft step whenever you take an attack of opportunity? So sure, when someone's charging you, and you're got reach on them you can back out of the way. That's not bad, as abilities go. But if the opponent has reach equivalent to yours (which EVERYTHING always does, who are we kidding), it's useless. But compare that to getting +4 to hit/ +4 damage for free, on all attacks, always, as a stackable bonus that stacks with EVERYTHING else. That's a pretty good ability.
Elgonn 02-10-05, 03:46 PM	Sure it's good, but what does it do? If used with Karmic Strike you can make yourself virtually immune to full attacks. I'd say that is better than some amazingly bad +1/+2.
Baneslayer 02-10-05, 04:32 PM	I will agree that the fundimental weakness of the Fighter class is that the feats top out, the return on the Fighter Bonus feats at higher levels shrinks immensely. +1 attack at First level is huge, +1 at 12th is almost nothing. It'd be different if there were a tier of feats that required GWF or GWS. There needs to be a selection of Greater Fighter Bonus feats intended to be taken between lvl 12 and 20. A fighter gets 4 bonus feats during that time but, as we can see, there isn't much you can take that you wouldn't be better off getting 8 levels worth of non-fighter Class abilities instead.
magmer2 02-14-05, 10:23 AM	How good would 4 feats be for +3 to hit and +6 to damage be(the Greater versions stacking with lesser versins)? It makes the fighter a little less linear. Another option would be +2/+4 for three feats(combining G.Focus and G.Spec).
Mommy was an Orc 02-14-05, 01:45 PM	That's only partially true. The Fighter will hit you, but on a full attack action, that +1 to hit still retains its value with the 2nd and 3rd attacks - or with Power Attack on a single attack. The problem is more along the lines that at low levels, you've got a significantly higher chance of finding the 'ideal' weapon for the particular level you're at, instead of having to make do with something not quite right or having to go out and buy the weapon. If you've got Weapon Focus: Greatsword and you kill two foes, one of which was wielding a +3 Greatsword, the other was wielding a +1 Keen, Shocking Falchion - and your party cleric is willing to cast Greater Magic Weapon on your item to make it +3, then you've got the uncomfortable choice of taking a +1 to hit over having +1d6 damage and significantly improved crit range. At level 4 though, they're both wielding +1 weapons... Favoring low level-Weapon Focus + 1 to hit is HUGE when you are only at +4 overall. At higher levels, the fighter 12 WILL hit you, +1 or not.