Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JaronK 01-09-07, 09:17 PM	So, after trying to make a ninja for a while for an online game, I've come to a conclusion: there are no decent ninja base classes in D&D. Why? The CA Ninja is basically a rogue, except he's actually worse in melee (and rogues are already pretty bad there), as he can't wear light armour (wis to AC does not make up for this), his sudden strike is just sneak attack without the ability to get it by flanking, and he can't use as much weaponry. His skills are worse (6), as is his skill selection. He's got horrible MAD (just like a rogue, except he needs wisdom too to power his Ki abilities and give him some sembalence of an AC score), so hes going to have worse stats for his key areas, downgrading his melee and skill monkey abilties even further. Plus, he lacks some of the rogue's better high level abilities, like crippling strike, opportunist, and skill mastery. And what does he get to make up for this? A cool and flavorfull ability to run up walls (which anyone with a one level dip in Psionic Warrior can get, not to mention anyone with slippers of spider climbing or a nearby wizard), the ability to turn invisible for a few rounds per day (which he needs to use if he ever plans on landing those sudden strikes, meaning he doesn't have it for other times), a few other abilities tied to his already very limited and overtaxed Ki Pool. Oh, and poison use, because we all know how incredibly helpful poison use is. Also, he can jump good and, at very high level, see invisible things, though magic items could easily give both those abilities. Urk. You could make a far better ninja by just playing a Rogue 19/Psionic Warrior one (using that bonus feat for up the walls), and that's just lame. And then, he's missing some abilities I'd consider pretty obviously necessary to be a ninja... namely the ability to run fast at all, and the ability to at least fight a little with martial arts. Also, note that he can't use a Katana, despite that picture. Katanas, by the way, are masterwork Broadswords. The best he can do is a shortsword. Yes yes, I know, it's more a Samurai thing, but remember, the idea in D&D is to make fantasy characters, and while real ninjas would have used a shorter weapon, fantasy ninjas use katanas. The Rokugan Ninja, meanwhile ( http://l5r.alderac.com/rpg/rokugan_ninja.pdf ) can at least fight okay, but has only four skill points per level, which just won't cut it. Note also the lack of evasion (which the CA also doesn't get until high level for some bizarre reason). And let's face it, other than Shadow Run, there's just not a lot of ninja character in that ninja. Yay, they get blind fight, so they can fight in darkness... except wait, blind fight doesn't change the fact that sneak attack won't work, so no, no fighting in darkness for you Mr. Ninja. But wait, there's also the Ninja Spy PrC from Oriental Adventures! Perhaps we could make a CA Ninja/R Ninja/Ninja Spy and actually get something cool! Well, no. For one thing, Ninja Spy requires Evasion to get into, which for some screwy reason the Rokugan Ninja doesn't even get, and the CA Ninja doesn't get till 12. This means we can't possibly get to the 8th level R Ninja speed boost and still do Ninja Spy at all. Also note the horrifically confused requirements. Rokugan Ninja must be non-lawful and evil (it's called Dishonerable in Rokugan), and Ninja Spy must be non Chaotic, tending towards Lawful. They really weren't sure on this whole alignment thing. That said, Ninja Spy is a very cool PrC, so it's something to look at. Thus, with that rant out of the way, perhaps folks can understand why I want to rebuild him, make him better... we have the technology, and so forth. I'm going to base this on the CA Ninja (because he has more flavor) but with a few power ups and characterful abilities stolen from the Monk, Rokugan Ninja, and Oriental Adventures Ninja Spy (which is quite cool, but it's a PrC). So, starting with the CA Ninja, we make the following changes. Ninja Note for this write up that anything not in italics is found, unchanged, in the Complete Adventurer Ninja. Anything in bold was removed from that level (and placed in another level). Explanations of all abilities below. Weapons and Armour: All simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, kama, kukri, nunchaku, shortbow, shortsword, shuriken, saingham, and katana. They are not proficient with armour or shields. Alignment: Any, as with the CA ninja. HD: D6. Skills: 6 Per Level. Good Reflex Saves. 3/4 BAB. (all exactly as CA Ninja) 1: Ki Power, Sudden Strike +1d6, Trapfinding, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Ninja Dodge +1 Removed: Wis to AC 2: Ghost Step (Invisible) 3: Sudden Strike +2d6, Poison Use 4: Great Leap, Leap of the Clouds, Int to AC, Slow Fall 20ft, Speed of Darkness 5: Sudden Strike +3d6, Ninja Dodge +2, +1AC Bonus, Ninja Dodge +2 6: Acrobatics +5, Ki Dodge, Slow Fall 30ft, Fast Movement +10 7: Sudden Strike +4d6, Speed Climb 8: Ghost Strike, Shadow Run, Slow Fall 40ft 9: Sudden Strike +5d6, Improved Poison Use 10: Ghost Step (Ethereal), +1 AC, Evasion, Ninja Dodge +3 11: Sudden Strike +6d6 12: Acrobatics +10, Evasion, Deflect Arrows, Fast Movement 20ft ... From here on out it's the same as the CA Ninja, except that at every level where he gains +1AC from his normal AC bonus, he also gains an additional point of Ninja Dodge Bonus, at 18 his Acrobatics is +15, and also at 18 his fast movement increases to +30ft. Finally, at 20 he gets to hide as a free action after attacking at -10 penalty, as opposed to the normal move action and -20. Explanations: Level 1: Change Ki Pool to Int and remove Wis to AC at this level. Ninjas are supposed to be smart, not necessarily all the wise, and it'll cure the MAD problem nicely. We'll give the AC bonus later, so as to make this class not too much of a 1 level dip class. Also, we'll give the ninja Improved Unarmed Strike like a monk, except it won't increase in damage with level. After all, this guy will be doing his damage with precision damage, not brute force. This won't be a huge bonus, as most weapons will be better, but it's very characterful and lets the ninja let loose with ninja stars and then kick someone in the face. Ninjas should always be able to jump up and kick someone in the face. It's a rule. We'll also give the ninja Flurry, like a Monk, but while the penalties will eventually go away, he won't get greater flurry, though he will be able to use it with any weapon that the Ninja class gives proficiency with. This A) gives him a reason to use Shurikens over the otherwise superior daggers and B) shouldn't be too strong, as he still has to use invisibility to land his sneak attack lite. Finally, give him the Rokugan Ninja's Ninja Dodge ability, leveling up as appropriate. This, combined with his AC bonus and Int to AC, should make him relatively survivable (remember, he's not wearing any armour). It will also at least bring him up to around rogue level of close combat ability, which ain't exactly uber. Remember that we expect high level rogues to be wearing Mithral Chain Shirts with Adamantium Dastanas (total of +6 to AC before enchantment), and Ninja Dodge doesn't apply to everyone. This means a ninja will be better defended against single targets, but possibly not as much so against others. He'll have more attacks than a rogue, but have a tougher time making sure his precision damage can actually land. All in all, I'd say that's reasonably balanced. Level 4: Now, we can add in Int to AC, like a monk but for Int instead of Wis. His AC will go up, as is currently the case for the CA Ninja, at level 5 and follow the same progression. As before, it doesn't stack with monk for this purpose. A lso, we'll steal from the Rokugan Ninja and give him Speed of Darkness, which lets him add his Int to Initiative. We'll also give him Slow Fall progression, like a monk, because again it's fun and characterful. Finally, give him Leap of the Clouds to go along with Great Leap, stolen from Ninja Spy, which makes his jump distance not limited by his height, because we all know ninjas should jump far. Level 6: A monk of this level gets +20ft run speed, and ninjas should have some speed too, so let's give him half the monk's run speed. +10 at this level, +20 at 12, +30 at 18. It makes sense. Ninjas are fast. We're also going to steal an ability from Rokugan Ninja at level 8 that will help with this. Second, we're going to improve the Acrobatics ability, bringing it part way between the almost useless ability that the CA ninja gives (+2) and the awesome Ninja Spy version (+10, Balance is included in the list) by including Balance into the bonus and making it +5 at this level, +10 at level 12, and +15 at level 18. After all, ninjas can jump really high, and it's a great character thing, but not exactly overpowered compared to, say, the flight ability that the pure casters have. 7: We're going to edit Speed Climb to remove the bit about needing to begin and end on a horizontal surface, but leave the bit about how if you're not on a horizontal surface, you fall. Also, we'll point out that you need to be on top of said surface. As it reads, as long as you run up to the ceiling, you're good, as that's horizontal too. Nifty, but come on, that's what spider climbing gear is for. Why make this change? Because it means you can end a round in midair, so a ninja could theoretically run up a wall, jump from that wall (round change in midair), hit another wall, run up that for a while, leap again (round change again) and then land on the top of a castle. We'll assume you need two facing walls or at least a corner for this trick, and you could already just speed climb the damn thing, but it's just too cool to forbid it. Level 8: Shadow Run, stolen from Rokugan Ninja, gives 5X Con modifier as an untyped bonus to movement. We'll say this only applies to normal movement, not flight or anything. This still won't make you as fast as a monk unless your con is through the roof, but it's cool and gets you something decent. Level 10: Evasion. This is already way later than the other classes get it, and if we put it here then Ninjas can still go through the whole Ninja Spy PrC if they want, which should be possible, and still gives a bunch of abilities that this base class doesn't get, such as even better acrobatics and tons of weapon proficiencies, plus that oh so cool Alter Self at will thing. We'll also give hide in plain sight. This is where the Wilderness rogues get it, and ninjas seriously need this one. Level 12: Deflect Arrows. It's mostly a fluff thing, but it's cool, it's taken from Rokugan Ninja, and it keeps things interesting. Finally, to give him a cool capstone ability, Level 20: Hide as a free action after attacking, at -10. Normally, it's a -20 move action. This ability, by the way, is stolen from the identical Halfling Rogue substitution level that they get at level 10 instead of a standard Rogue ability. It means that at level 20 a ninja can launch a bunch of ninja stars from the shadows without having to burn invisibility uses. And that's it. Results? Well, now our ninja has a bit less MAD (Still needs strength a bit, Int even more than a rogue, and con more than a rogue, plus of course the almighty dex). He's also an okay fellow in melee, though nowhere near Barbarian or even Monk level, as he's decent on defense (except for his saves, compared to a monk) but still needs to work hard to make sudden strike work. He's got flurry, though not greater flurry, which makes his number of hits a bit worse than a monk, and his unarmed strike damage is only D6 or, if small, D4 even at level 20, so when he can't connect with Sudden Strike he's not doing anything serious. Thus, worse than a monk in hand to hand when he can't land his precision damage, better when he can, though the former is far more common than the latter. He's also got worse saves than the monk by a good margin. Compared to a rogue, he's got more attacks, but it's harder to do his precision damage, and he can't get opportunist or crippling strike, so again, its a tossup. Honestly, I'd still put it in favor of the rogue most of the time. He's still lacking on the skill points and skill selection compared to a rogue, but at least he's got some Int synergy to help out. What he does have, and these are all his own, are a lot of movement related abilities that let him run up walls, jump like crazy, and generally move very very fast, plus he's got hide in plain sight and occasional invisibility when he really really needs it. Considering spellcasters can just teleport, I wouldn't consider any of these abilities overpowered, but they are cool, and there's something to be said for that. He can also see invisible at high level, which is nice, and attack ethereals, which is kinda cool, except that all ethereals, for the most part, are undead, and would find his 1d6 damage with no sneak attack possible absolutely tickling. So, if you've actually read all that... thoughts? Have I made some ungodly overpowered monstrosity, or does this all seem about right? JaronK
Edea 01-09-07, 10:01 PM	Ninja of the Crescent Moon is pretty nice, but it's Sword and Fist and hasn't been updated.
Exavian 01-09-07, 10:04 PM	Um, there is always the Wakizashi, which I would think a ninja would be more apt to use, which is a masterwork short sword.
tsuyoshikentsu 01-09-07, 10:15 PM	If you want to be a Ninja, play a Swordsage. And ninjas use ninja-to -- which is is appropriate, considering that means "ninja sword." It's a straight-edged blade similar to a katana. In D&D terms, it's a good match for a masterwork longsword.
Ipsissimus 01-09-07, 10:25 PM	I know there's several threads about katanas and ninja-tos and their history, origin, and why ninjas don't get the prof. in D20 but I will say this. Ninja-tos (d20's eastern flavored shortsword) was more a tool then a weapon when compared to the katana (d20's eastern flavored bastard sword) The ninja class in CA is an alternate core class, which usually means different from the original core class that being Rogue. Granted it's not as efficient as the Rogue but it does has some abilities that not everyone has access to always. After what our DM saw me do with psionics, he said he'd never run another game with psionics and magic again. It would be one or the other. So...up the walls no longer becomes an option for a rogue in some campaigns. In a low magic campaign the ninja is actually pretty good with all it's abilities that mimic spell like abilities. Rogue used to be called the Thief class...we changed some of the class names because it didn't fit in the campaign setting. The ninja became the stalker. I don't think you changes are grossly overbalanced, but I believe you can achieve the same results with multi classing. Rogue, Fighter, Shou Disciple, Monk, there's plenty of other PrC's and feats that you could take that will get you to where you want to be...but the ninja with katana prof, that's totally broken. :P I wouldn't hold my breathe with all the previous PrC's from the splat books, it's an afterthought now. It's all about the Complete books and I'm sure even that, once 4.0 comes out will be just a dream. Let the ninja be title or profession you earn from a handful of a classes you compiled together. So, pull out your Visa card you can buy every class you wanna be.
JaronK 01-09-07, 10:40 PM	If you want to be a Ninja, play a Swordsage. And ninjas use ninja-to -- which is is appropriate, considering that means "ninja sword." It's a straight-edged blade similar to a katana. In D&D terms, it's a good match for a masterwork longsword. Too bad ninjas aren't proficient with the longsword either then, eh? But yeah, the idea here is to have a balanced ninja base class that's 3.5 legal. JaronK
Sharp_Claw 01-09-07, 10:45 PM	you might want to format this up a bit, turn down the [rant], and see what the people over at the Classes boards have to say. I'm sure they've already got some Ninja fixes; maybe you could draw inspiration from those as well if you're really trying to work out a balanced 3.5 Ninja base class.
tsuyoshikentsu 01-09-07, 10:47 PM	Too bad ninjas aren't proficient with the longsword either then, eh? But yeah, the idea here is to have a balanced ninja base class that's 3.5 legal.Swordsages are proficient with the longsword. Swordsage is an exceptionally balanced 3.5 class. The idea of a ninja with a katana is absurd, which is why I endeavored to correct it.
FruitOfTheShroom 01-09-07, 10:58 PM	Swordsages are proficient with the longsword. Swordsage is an exceptionally balanced 3.5 class. The idea of a ninja with a katana is absurd, which is why I endeavored to correct it. The Ninja-to could be a shortsword even, its not terribly long, and is designed with concealability and tight spaces in mind. I second using the Sword Sage as a PERFECT replacement for the Ninja. Its not hard to ninja-flavor your Swordsage, just give him maneuvers from Shadow Hand and things like that. Swordsage also gets some skills, and is designed as more of a skirmisher than the other 2 ToB classes.
Maat_Mons 01-09-07, 11:03 PM	Using Complete Scoundrel, you can take Ascetic Stalker to add your Ninja levels to your monk levels for unarmed damage and Martial Stalker to add your Ninja levels to your fighter levels for feats. With those, your Ninja levels now give you a fighter feat every-other level and full monk damage progression. Fighter 4 / Monk 4 / Ninja 12 would give you +16 base attack bonus, 9 fighter feats, 2d8 unarmed damage, and sudden strike +6d6. You can bump your unarmed damage to 2d10 with a feat and gain proficiency with a katana as a one-handed weapon with another feat. You can spare two feats since you get nine extra. I think this makes for a reasonable ninja using primarily the unaltered Complete Adventurer Ninja class. You can fight competently with a weapon or unarmed and still be appropriately stealthy.
Grave 01-09-07, 11:04 PM	Not to derail the thread or anything, but the actual "ninja" in feudal japan were usually specially trained members of the bushi (i.e. samurai) caste and usually used katana or wakizashi (one especially lethal trick was to sheath a wakizashi in a katana saya so that your opponent would incorrectly guess your draw speed). The ninja-to was not used by actual ninja and in fact, is really more of a modern conception and is basically a straight bladed short sword (not masterwork, as even the fiction surrounding ninja-to portray them as cheap weapons utilized primarily by the peasantry). Personally, I think one can make a fine "ninja" character without having to resort to inventing a new base class. Heck, you could be a bard and still call yourself a ninja (kabuki style). Furthermore, I think it would a mistake to try to make a base class that has all the abilities typically associated with the fantasy ninja as such a class would most likely be horribly broken. It would almost be like making classes to mimic anime. That said, I do agree that the CA Ninja is not that great of a class (sheesh, they don't even get Uncanny Dodge), and that Swordsages, as it stands, seem to be the best single class that encompasses all things ninja in a balanced, fun, and flavorfull manner. ToB, we love you... -Grave & Co.
Sharp_Claw 01-09-07, 11:11 PM	Using Complete Scoundrel, you can take...Martial Stalker to add your Ninja levels to your fighter levels for feats. With those, your Ninja levels now give you a fighter feat every-other level... Sorry, that's not how the feat works; people w/the book have confirmed that the feat merely allows you to qualify for feats that require minimum fighter levels (such as greater weapon specialization and its ilk). And yea, I'll go ahead and chime in with everyone else in agreeing the Swordsage is the way to go if you want to play the iconic (and at times stereotypical) "Ninja." Again, (as Grave mentioned), your class levels and class name dont matter so much, as long as your abilities fit whatever function and flavor you're trying to accomplish.
HelloRaptor 01-09-07, 11:25 PM	We're going to be starting a d20 game in which the PCs will all be playing ninja of one stripe or another, though admittedly the thematics are mostly drawn from Naruto and other such anime (cue the roll of my wife's eyes). One is planning to go with Ninja from CA, while I'm probably doing Rogue/Wizard/Unseen Seer. I'm not that fond of the CA ninja, but I doubt I can get her to run with Swordsage. :(
Maat_Mons 01-09-07, 11:47 PM	Sorry, that's not how the feat works; people w/the book have confirmed that the feat merely allows you to qualify for feats that require minimum fighter levels (such as greater weapon specialization and its ilk). And yea, I'll go ahead and chime in with everyone else in agreeing the Swordsage is the way to go if you want to play the iconic (and at times stereotypical) "Ninja." Again, (as Grave mentioned), your class levels and class name dont matter so much, as long as your abilities fit whatever function and flavor you're trying to accomplish. Oops. What I was getting at though, is that Wizards seems to have also thought the Ninja class needed some help. Wizards seems to be increasingly aware that many of their non-casting base classes need some help. I just thought, given the nature of the original post, that it would be good to make mention of the feats meant to encourage players to use the ninja class and show that they help the class somewhat. I didn’t mean to suggest that you don’t use Swordsage as the basis of a ninja character; I’m as big a fan of Tome of Battle as the next member of these boards.
Kuroi Kenshi 01-10-07, 12:50 AM	Seems fine to me. I mean, compare that to a rogue, scout, or swordsage, and it doesn't seem bad. It's just my gut instinct but it seems like it's still a little weak just because sudden strike is such a crappy ability compared to sneak attack, skirmish, and maneuvers.
MongooseFamiliar 01-10-07, 01:09 AM	*shrug* I happen to like the CA ninja. But then, I am more of a roleplayer than a melee fighter type. Ghost step and all my interesting skills give me a lot of options. I'm not level 10 yet, but even now, there isn't much I can't slip away from with wise use of skills, alchemicals, and ghost step. Even if I am captured or cornered, unless I am physically attached to something (chained to a wall) or put in a forcecage, they are going to have a tough time holding me. Once I can go ethereal, even those might not keep me hemmed in. My silent strike doesn't work while flanking, but one level of anything with sneak attack will fix that, or I can just play smart and feint, hide, or use feats and tricks to get my opponent flat-footed so I can use it. Uncanny dodge might give me some issues, but I am flexible enough to change my style. Or I can just lure the fellow with the uncanny dodge over to the barbarian dwarf. It's all good. I'm not trying to play a fighter, or a rogue, or a barbarian, or Thogg the wielder of the big sword who does massive damage. I'm the one who, if all goes well, won't fight in the first place. I'm a shadow out of the corner of their eyes. If they do spot me, I have poisons to put them to sleep, or tricks to escape from them. I can lure them to my party if I don't feel like escaping. As a ninja, and a smart player, I have some nice tools. I see a lot of people complaining about how weak they are, and not focusing on how to creatively use the skills and tools they have. Or thinking of simple ways to tweak the class slightly (like adding some of the stuff from Ninja of the Crescent Moon to the class) so that it still fits the concept but isn't overpowered. As for balance - we tweaked my version of the CA ninja slightly by adding some goodies from Ninja of the Crescent Moon - notably Silent Strike (melee silent strike keeps your opponent from speaking for one round), Fast Sneak (can use move silently and hide at normal speed with no penalties), Always Sneaky (always take 10 on move silently and hide), and blindsight 60'. When the Complete Scoundrel comes out I am going to try and figure out some unholy combo of scout/ninja/master thrower or invisible blade. Should be interesting. "Ninjas suck cuz they aren't fighters." "Ninjas suck cuz they aren't rogues." "Silent Strike sucks cuz it doesn't work when you flank." "Ghost Step sucks cuz you need more of it and it is only for one round." (If you think it is useless, you seriously lack imagination, btw.) If you try to play a class like this as a toe-to-toe blow-for-blow fighter, then yes, you will suck. If you play smart, you won't. Use your imagination and your intelligence and much luck to you. Obviously, being a ninja isn't for everyone.
Xeraph 01-10-07, 11:51 AM	And while we are at it, why do Ronin have to be Chaotic? I mean damn, there are lots of ways to lose ones title as Samurai, other than disgrace. Anyways, this seems like a good as ever time to get to the buttom of it. Check, do the Swordsage Mulitpouncer!
PhaedrusXY 01-10-07, 12:20 PM	Isn't "ninja" more of a profession/lifestyle than a class? I really don't see the point of another base class. I think there are too many already. Some combo of monk/rogue/scout/ranger/fighter/swordsage (possibly) going into the Ninja Spy PrC should work fine for a fantasy ninja. Mix in psionics for more super-kewl powers, and Teflemmar Shadowlord for real cheese. This isn't the place to test out homebrewed classes, anyway. That is the Classes board.
malisteen 01-10-07, 12:42 PM	I'm going to add my voice to those saying Swordsage is the way to go. With good maneuver and stance selection you can have a well-themed set of over-the-top ninja abilities. Take the feat in tome of battle that improves unarmed damage (not quite monk-progression, but better then multiclassing monk), and grab complete scoundrel for the skill-trick that lets you run up walls (you'll have to get a bunch of climb and tumble ranks, but it shouldn't be too hard to qualify for).
Tweedledope 01-10-07, 12:59 PM	Honestly, as stands...there is no class that even comes close to Ninjas. In the traditional sense, the Ninja is someone who uses various tools to get the job done. For instance, there is nothing in D&D for using the sheath of your wakizashi as a powder sprayer. Nor are there rules for eggshell bombs. Sure, there are shurikens but...seriously. The overall way to look at this is that if you want a TRUE ninja, you're going to have to develop some nice houserules with your DM as well as use the Ninja theme rather than a ninja class. With that said, there are a few things to consider: Of course, you need Unarmed Strikes. This fits thematically and also fits traditionally. Poisons were never used by a real ninja. Instead, you need other alchemical devices such as smoke bombs and eggshell bombs. If a traditional ninja was in danger, he'd just run away. No questions asked. You need to develop something with your DM for using your wakizashi (or ninja-to) sheath as a defensive weapon. The traditional fighting style is to weild your weapon and your sheath at the same time. Your sheath acted like a shield to 'entangle' your foes while you landed a telling blow (via a Feint) with your short sword. Of course, the element of surprise should mitigate this. If you do decide to go with the CA ninja as you have edited, I think it is a great idea. However, work with your DM to incorporate some of the above listed abilities and, for god's sake, fix the damned Evasion crap. That's my rant. D&D focuses on the mysterious factor rather than the practical factor. In real life, there were (are?) ninjas that could do all of the fanciful things we imagine. However, they did it without 'magic' and with a good deal of wit. -=TD=-
BenSan 01-10-07, 02:27 PM	The only Ninja I ever played was in an epic (mid-20s or so) game. He had a little rogue, a little wizard, some Ninja Spy, but mainly 10 levels of Shifter, which at the time counted for a lot. Also he had ridiculous amounts of Hide and Move Silently. Since nobody at anywhere near their CR had enough Spot/Listen to notice him when he was stealthy, he would go sneaky, turn into an air elemental or a ghost or whatever, and invisibly walk through walls or fly faster than everyone else and already be there when the rest of the party arrived. He was crap in a fight but loads of fun. I guess the point is that you take your ninja where you can find it. Or something.
PhaedrusXY 01-10-07, 03:07 PM	Honestly, as stands...there is no class that even comes close to Ninjas. In the traditional sense, the Ninja is someone who uses various tools to get the job done. For instance, there is nothing in D&D for using the sheath of your wakizashi as a powder sprayer. Nor are there rules for eggshell bombs. Sure, there are shurikens but...seriously. <snip>Alot of the stuff you're talking about is actually in Oriental Adventures. It has many different kinds of eggshell bombs, and tricky weapons like a sword disguised as a cane, etc.
Tweedledope 01-10-07, 05:17 PM	See, I don't have OA. My DM has the books but, we're not allowed to use them. I was just going off of the "core" D&D + completes. Regardless, D&D tries to make magic from intelligence. A truly good ninja (of which Changeling's make the best) won't need tons of magic to do an effective job. -=TD=-
UMiskatonic 01-10-07, 07:02 PM	You might be able to get a more mystical ninja out of rogue/artificer. Just call all of your artificer abilities "secret ninja power" or something, and you should be in good shape. Eggshell bombs and all.
MongooseFamiliar 01-10-07, 08:49 PM	Agreed. Alchemy ftw! Smoke sticks + hide or ghost step = vanish in a puff of smoke Flash pellets = same idea, flash of light Stinging smoke = AoE blind Yellow smoke = fear spell Iceflow oil = grease spell to slow anyone chasing you Tanglefoot bag = see above Netwall = see above Silent shoes and black catsuit = ninja costume. Or use nightshimmer silk if you are a snob. If you go through the various books there are bunches of ways to arm yourself without being armed. Tamo daggers, hairpin dagger, hairpin of tools, smuggler's boots, etc. There are also a bunch of combat feats focused around tumbling, hiding, and moving silently that are filed in with assassin, rogue, and monk stuff that can work quite nicely for a ninja. The tricks in Complete Scoundrel will make it even better. And I agree with those that say Swordsages would make dandy ninjas! The only downside to a Swordsage is that they won't be able to use ki feats, though that is negligible due to the range of maneuvers they can learn. I also heartily agree with those that say ninja is a style more than a class. Good points, one and all.
Aegeu 01-10-07, 08:59 PM	I DM'd for a gestalt ninja-wizard. Aside for having style second only to a ninja-pirate, he had high enough initiative and hide checks to always get a surprise round sudden strike, win initiative for a second SS, and then turn invisible for another SS. Since a ninja's SS progresses faster than a rogue's, the damage quickly adds up. I'll never forget the time he almost one-shotted a wizard BBEG with an acid splash. Of all his spells, it was a freaking acid splash that brought down the wizard.
Daeger 01-11-07, 04:36 AM	I'm amazed no one mentioned assassin. Also, for the record, you have to be able to cast spells to use alchemy in 3.5. Stupid, I know.
Subedei 01-11-07, 07:29 AM	Who says you have to use a class with "Ninja" in it's name to make a ninja character? I agree, the Ninja base classes suck, so don't use them. For a Ninja, I suggest a Fighter/Rogue/Sorcerer/Daggerspell Mage. This will get you lots of Ninja skills, decent combat ability, a little sneak attack (increase it with spells), and lots of secret ninja techniques: Invisibility Blur Mirror Image Fog Cloud Dragon's Breath Summon Monster Polymorph etc Then again, are you trying to make a historical ninja or a mythical ninja?
ksbsnowowl 01-11-07, 08:15 AM	Also, for the record, you have to be able to cast spells to use alchemy in 3.5. Stupid, I know.Yes, very stupid. I am an (al)chemist by profession. I guess that means I can cast spells, eh? As we all know that's not true, it pretty well shows how stupid that rule is. Anyway, I'll put in another vote for Swordsage as the best ninja possible. Cloak of Deception, Dance of the Spider, Child of Shadow, Assassin's Stance - it all screams ninja, if you want it to.
Zemyla 01-11-07, 09:24 AM	For Naruto-style ninja, I would recommend using psionics (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=589061). Seriously, it matches so well. The only thing that doesn't fit is the hand jive that they do to use the techniques, but it could be ruled as a mental focusing exercise.
hogarth 01-11-07, 09:46 AM	I'm amazed no one mentioned assassin. I'm even more amazed that no one has mentioned that ninjas are mammals that like to flip out and kill people.