A ravenloft thief. [Archive] - Wizards Community

A ravenloft thief. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
shades of eternity
02-12-07, 08:29 AM A ravenloft thief.

Our gm had a total party kill last game using the new ravenloft adventure (although as far as I can tell a CR 11 encounter for a cr 6 party that has already had a cr 6 encounter is a little overdone).

I am a firm believer in the 4 class approach, and have a feeling we will need a rogue something fierce later on for trap related activities.

However, in such a heavy undead environment, a rogue would feel pretty useless against most opponents.

I want to make a build from 6-10 for a rogue that could do the following:

1. Be effective in finding and removing traps.
2. Be effective in fighting undead both by oneself and as part of a standard 4 field party.
3. be able to "run away to fight another day" if things go sour, even if surrounded.

I am entertaining any and all ideas to be able to do this.
icedrake
02-12-07, 08:55 AM Play a scout/ranger with the swift ambusher feat from complete scoundral. Ranger and scout levels stack for favored enemy and skirmish damage, any creatures you choose who are immune to crits as favored enemies you can apply your skimish damage to. I believe you could take this as at level three as a scout 2/ranger 1, though you might need to take it at level six.

In the CAd errata, they gave the scout disable device.
Bopple
02-12-07, 09:06 AM There are certain options;

1. I heard there is a feat or PrC? that lets you to deal Sneak-Attack damage to undeads, in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft adventure.

2. Grave Strike spell in Complete Adventurer lets you do the same thing.

3. Razing Strike feat in Complete Adventurer lets you do a similar thing, but you'd better take Shadowbane Stalker PrC to do this.

4. Use Truedeath Crystal from this;
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20070209a

5. Take Able Learner feat for Disable Device, be other type of class(tank or caster) and forget about sneak-attack.
FriendlyFrog
02-12-07, 09:11 AM Bopple, it's a substitution level, actually, replaces Trap sense at level 3. Even if it only allows you to deal half your sneak attack damage, and only works if you flank the enemy, it's more than worth it.

There is a PrC called Skullclan hunter in Miniatures handbook that gives you the ability to sneak attack undead.
Bopple
02-12-07, 09:16 AM God, how could I forget about Skullclan Hunter?
It's full of good abilities against undeads.
Darhelion
02-12-07, 09:35 AM Wizard/Rogue-> Unseen Seer; the advanced learning of US lets you add any divination spell from any list. Pick Grave Strike. US advances sneak attack. This would also be a decent entry into Arcane Trickster, which would even let you Ranged Legerdemain some traps. A careful choice of spells aside from Grave Strike can help with the 'get away even when surrounded', though a high tumble check can do the same thing.

Alternatively, Rogue 1/Lurk X with Cosmopolitan for Disable Device could work, as one of the Lurk Augments is Sneak Attack Undead. Assuming psionics are allowed. I am unfortunately away from my books right now, so can't give specific levels. So if this requires too many, I'm sorry. But hope it helps!
nittanytbone
02-12-07, 09:47 AM Rogue 1/Cloistered Cleric X

Max Search and Disable Device (you have enough SP to pay it cross-class if need be). You'll be an almost-fully functioning cleric, have good skills, and I think you'll find that the cloistered cleric bonus spells mesh very nicely with being a trap-monkey. Plus, DMM for the win! Poor BAB doesn't matter with Divine Power running.

Also, your will saves should be much improved.

25 point buy:

Str: 10 (2)
Dex: 13 (5) - Pump this if you get higher stats: you'll be in light armor
Con: 14 (6)
Int: 10 (2) - Pump this first if you get higher stats
Wis: 15 (8) - You're a primary caster -- you need good wisdom to cast all your spells on time and to grant bonus spells. Dump stat boosts here.
Cha: 10 (2) - Pump this if you get higher stats and want to make lots of use of DMM
shades of eternity
02-12-07, 11:09 AM bopple, where is this substitution level located?
Lilt
02-12-07, 11:50 AM By "4 class approach" i assume you're meaning that there'll be a Wizard/equivalent, a Cleric/equivalent, and a Fighter/equivalent too? In that case I might suggest going spellthief. I mean:
You can ask the cleric to memorise some grave-strikes and extended grave strikes for sneak-attacking undead, you can let the wizard cast his spells faster than normal (nice for unreasonably-high CR encounters). I mean, the wizard's not going to care if you take one of his acid splashes but you can do a lot of damage with it.

You can also act as a back-up healer using spells borrowed from the cleric, and buff yourself in combat which can make you really quite effective against undead and other opponents. I mean: Fist of Stone = +6 strength and a slam attack.

Oh, and you can also use the spellthief in what was presumably its intended capacity: nicking spells from enemy spellcasters and critters with spell-likes.

Some spelltheif ideas:

Leadership + Warlock Cohort = Walking spell-battery.
Infinite-use spell-likes + your steal spell-like ability feature = those nice 24-hour warlock buffs on you. From Spellthief level 7, you can absorb spells which you make the save against and use them to power your own spells. If you get an invocation such-as spider-climb or invisibility which allows a save, you can in theory convert the spell-likes into something that can power your own spells for unlimited spellcasting of 2nd level and lower (later you can do 3rd and 4th with other invocations).
Summon Familiar + Improved Familiar + Imp/Quasit = Flying spell-battery.
This works like the warlock cohort idea, but takes one more feat to do and doesn't give you any spell-likes above 2nd level. It's perhaps an idea if your DM doesn't allow leadership though, and you can buff the familiar quite well using Share Spell... You can turn it into a Minor Xorn using alter self, for example, and even nastier things once you get Polymorph (if allowed)
Craven (CoR) = More than enough sneak-attack damage.
+1/Character level damage on sneak-attacks, but somewhat screwed on saves against fear. Thankfully, you get a good will save as a spellthief. If you take a warlock cohort then you can also use Dark One's Own Luck to shore-up a save too.
Bopple
02-12-07, 12:18 PM Expedition to Castle Ravenloft.
Check the product list.
Crusher Nate
02-12-07, 01:38 PM There is a PrC called Skullclan hunter in Miniatures handbook that gives you the ability to sneak attack undead.

Actually, based on the wording of that ability, I'd have to rule that it doesn't just let you sneak attack undead. It lets you add your sneak attack dice whenever you attack undead! Meaning you don't even have to set them up for a sneak attack.
PhoenixInferno
02-12-07, 02:58 PM Actually, based on the wording of that ability, I'd have to rule that it doesn't just let you sneak attack undead. It lets you add your sneak attack dice whenever you attack undead! Meaning you don't even have to set them up for a sneak attack.Razing Strike (Complete Adventurer) has similar wording - burn a spell slot, add SA + 1d6/sacrificed spell level to your damage, regardless of its condition.
shades of eternity
02-12-07, 10:43 PM I don't think I can take dobbler - Expedition to Castle Ravenloft is pretty much owned by the gm and he's been pretty tight about not letting anybody else see it.

so far the best choices so far are the ranger/scout combo and the rogue/cloistered cleric. The spell thief is good too, but just not ready yet.

I own the following that I am allowed to use. Even though the gm loves psionics, I am not comfortable with the system enough to try it just yet.

He is also shying away from odd races.

here are the books available to me:

PHB
DMG
MM
Arms and Equipment guide. (3.0)
Planar Handbook
Book of exalted deeds
Forgotten Realms campaign set (3.0)
Players guide to faerun
MAgic of faerun (3.0)
Champions of valor
Races of Faerun
Shining South
Silver Marches
Races of stone
Races of destiny
Unearthed Arcana
Complete Warrior
Complete Arcane
Complete Divine
Complete Adventurer

Don't own complete scoundral, but may end up picking it up.
Bopple
02-12-07, 10:48 PM Too bad you don't have Miniature Handbook.
Skullclan Hunter has lots of good defensive abilities against undeads, like immunity to fear/disease/ability damage/drain/energy drain/paralysis, permanent Protection from Evil.
And of course on top of flat addition of your sneak-attack dice to normal attacks against undeads.
Lilt
02-13-07, 04:52 PM What do you mean when you say that the spellthief is not ready yet? I'm not saying "thou must play a spelltheif", but if you're sayign that they're a class that hasn't been advanced with splat books then you may want to have a look at complete scoundrel. I believe that they added some spellthief gravy, including (according to one of my players) a feat that lets arcane casting levels advance spelltheft.

I can't check to see if it's actually worded like that, however, as I don't have the book. If it did work then I'd say it might be worth a looksee.
shades of eternity
02-15-07, 07:25 PM actually upon further thought, the spell thief has true potential. I do like the idea of prepping to double your healing ability. I'll have to wait till my copy of complete adventurers is returned to me before I make any sort of decision.

I've also am going to see if the cloistered cleric/thief idea is good. I'm going to try to take the god gond and take an initiate of gond feat to get disable device and open lock as class skills. Think of domains Earth, Fire, and knowledge (thanks to cloistered cleric).

I'm debating whether to build towards techsmith (in faiths and pantheons) but am open to other options for a possible build.

I think I better give a rundown of what the party will be.

Human psion (blaster)
Human wizard (utililty mage)
Human cleric/barberian (hitter/healer)

and one other.

with this party build what would be the best. I'm thinking the cloistered cleric/thief, but will take any suggestions to take the ravenloft thief idea.
The Crimson Dawn
02-16-07, 01:43 AM Dont forget about that alternate rouge ability from the PHB2, the one that lets you sack your sneak attack for a large penalty to your enemies ac. Hell if I have 2 attacks I just might use it on the first attack every time just so that the second attack can hit and so that my warrior friend can power attack that much more.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
shades of eternity 02-12-07, 08:29 AM	A ravenloft thief. Our gm had a total party kill last game using the new ravenloft adventure (although as far as I can tell a CR 11 encounter for a cr 6 party that has already had a cr 6 encounter is a little overdone). I am a firm believer in the 4 class approach, and have a feeling we will need a rogue something fierce later on for trap related activities. However, in such a heavy undead environment, a rogue would feel pretty useless against most opponents. I want to make a build from 6-10 for a rogue that could do the following: 1. Be effective in finding and removing traps. 2. Be effective in fighting undead both by oneself and as part of a standard 4 field party. 3. be able to "run away to fight another day" if things go sour, even if surrounded. I am entertaining any and all ideas to be able to do this.
icedrake 02-12-07, 08:55 AM	Play a scout/ranger with the swift ambusher feat from complete scoundral. Ranger and scout levels stack for favored enemy and skirmish damage, any creatures you choose who are immune to crits as favored enemies you can apply your skimish damage to. I believe you could take this as at level three as a scout 2/ranger 1, though you might need to take it at level six. In the CAd errata, they gave the scout disable device.
Bopple 02-12-07, 09:06 AM	There are certain options; 1. I heard there is a feat or PrC? that lets you to deal Sneak-Attack damage to undeads, in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft adventure. 2. Grave Strike spell in Complete Adventurer lets you do the same thing. 3. Razing Strike feat in Complete Adventurer lets you do a similar thing, but you'd better take Shadowbane Stalker PrC to do this. 4. Use Truedeath Crystal from this; http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20070209a 5. Take Able Learner feat for Disable Device, be other type of class(tank or caster) and forget about sneak-attack.
FriendlyFrog 02-12-07, 09:11 AM	Bopple, it's a substitution level, actually, replaces Trap sense at level 3. Even if it only allows you to deal half your sneak attack damage, and only works if you flank the enemy, it's more than worth it. There is a PrC called Skullclan hunter in Miniatures handbook that gives you the ability to sneak attack undead.
Bopple 02-12-07, 09:16 AM	God, how could I forget about Skullclan Hunter? It's full of good abilities against undeads.
Darhelion 02-12-07, 09:35 AM	Wizard/Rogue-> Unseen Seer; the advanced learning of US lets you add any divination spell from any list. Pick Grave Strike. US advances sneak attack. This would also be a decent entry into Arcane Trickster, which would even let you Ranged Legerdemain some traps. A careful choice of spells aside from Grave Strike can help with the 'get away even when surrounded', though a high tumble check can do the same thing. Alternatively, Rogue 1/Lurk X with Cosmopolitan for Disable Device could work, as one of the Lurk Augments is Sneak Attack Undead. Assuming psionics are allowed. I am unfortunately away from my books right now, so can't give specific levels. So if this requires too many, I'm sorry. But hope it helps!
nittanytbone 02-12-07, 09:47 AM	Rogue 1/Cloistered Cleric X Max Search and Disable Device (you have enough SP to pay it cross-class if need be). You'll be an almost-fully functioning cleric, have good skills, and I think you'll find that the cloistered cleric bonus spells mesh very nicely with being a trap-monkey. Plus, DMM for the win! Poor BAB doesn't matter with Divine Power running. Also, your will saves should be much improved. 25 point buy: Str: 10 (2) Dex: 13 (5) - Pump this if you get higher stats: you'll be in light armor Con: 14 (6) Int: 10 (2) - Pump this first if you get higher stats Wis: 15 (8) - You're a primary caster -- you need good wisdom to cast all your spells on time and to grant bonus spells. Dump stat boosts here. Cha: 10 (2) - Pump this if you get higher stats and want to make lots of use of DMM
shades of eternity 02-12-07, 11:09 AM	bopple, where is this substitution level located?
Lilt 02-12-07, 11:50 AM	By "4 class approach" i assume you're meaning that there'll be a Wizard/equivalent, a Cleric/equivalent, and a Fighter/equivalent too? In that case I might suggest going spellthief. I mean: You can ask the cleric to memorise some grave-strikes and extended grave strikes for sneak-attacking undead, you can let the wizard cast his spells faster than normal (nice for unreasonably-high CR encounters). I mean, the wizard's not going to care if you take one of his acid splashes but you can do a lot of damage with it. You can also act as a back-up healer using spells borrowed from the cleric, and buff yourself in combat which can make you really quite effective against undead and other opponents. I mean: Fist of Stone = +6 strength and a slam attack. Oh, and you can also use the spellthief in what was presumably its intended capacity: nicking spells from enemy spellcasters and critters with spell-likes. Some spelltheif ideas: Leadership + Warlock Cohort = Walking spell-battery. Infinite-use spell-likes + your steal spell-like ability feature = those nice 24-hour warlock buffs on you. From Spellthief level 7, you can absorb spells which you make the save against and use them to power your own spells. If you get an invocation such-as spider-climb or invisibility which allows a save, you can in theory convert the spell-likes into something that can power your own spells for unlimited spellcasting of 2nd level and lower (later you can do 3rd and 4th with other invocations). Summon Familiar + Improved Familiar + Imp/Quasit = Flying spell-battery. This works like the warlock cohort idea, but takes one more feat to do and doesn't give you any spell-likes above 2nd level. It's perhaps an idea if your DM doesn't allow leadership though, and you can buff the familiar quite well using Share Spell... You can turn it into a Minor Xorn using alter self, for example, and even nastier things once you get Polymorph (if allowed) Craven (CoR) = More than enough sneak-attack damage. +1/Character level damage on sneak-attacks, but somewhat screwed on saves against fear. Thankfully, you get a good will save as a spellthief. If you take a warlock cohort then you can also use Dark One's Own Luck to shore-up a save too.
Bopple 02-12-07, 12:18 PM	Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. Check the product list.
Crusher Nate 02-12-07, 01:38 PM	There is a PrC called Skullclan hunter in Miniatures handbook that gives you the ability to sneak attack undead. Actually, based on the wording of that ability, I'd have to rule that it doesn't just let you sneak attack undead. It lets you add your sneak attack dice whenever you attack undead! Meaning you don't even have to set them up for a sneak attack.
PhoenixInferno 02-12-07, 02:58 PM	Actually, based on the wording of that ability, I'd have to rule that it doesn't just let you sneak attack undead. It lets you add your sneak attack dice whenever you attack undead! Meaning you don't even have to set them up for a sneak attack.Razing Strike (Complete Adventurer) has similar wording - burn a spell slot, add SA + 1d6/sacrificed spell level to your damage, regardless of its condition.
shades of eternity 02-12-07, 10:43 PM	I don't think I can take dobbler - Expedition to Castle Ravenloft is pretty much owned by the gm and he's been pretty tight about not letting anybody else see it. so far the best choices so far are the ranger/scout combo and the rogue/cloistered cleric. The spell thief is good too, but just not ready yet. I own the following that I am allowed to use. Even though the gm loves psionics, I am not comfortable with the system enough to try it just yet. He is also shying away from odd races. here are the books available to me: PHB DMG MM Arms and Equipment guide. (3.0) Planar Handbook Book of exalted deeds Forgotten Realms campaign set (3.0) Players guide to faerun MAgic of faerun (3.0) Champions of valor Races of Faerun Shining South Silver Marches Races of stone Races of destiny Unearthed Arcana Complete Warrior Complete Arcane Complete Divine Complete Adventurer Don't own complete scoundral, but may end up picking it up.
Bopple 02-12-07, 10:48 PM	Too bad you don't have Miniature Handbook. Skullclan Hunter has lots of good defensive abilities against undeads, like immunity to fear/disease/ability damage/drain/energy drain/paralysis, permanent Protection from Evil. And of course on top of flat addition of your sneak-attack dice to normal attacks against undeads.
Lilt 02-13-07, 04:52 PM	What do you mean when you say that the spellthief is not ready yet? I'm not saying "thou must play a spelltheif", but if you're sayign that they're a class that hasn't been advanced with splat books then you may want to have a look at complete scoundrel. I believe that they added some spellthief gravy, including (according to one of my players) a feat that lets arcane casting levels advance spelltheft. I can't check to see if it's actually worded like that, however, as I don't have the book. If it did work then I'd say it might be worth a looksee.
shades of eternity 02-15-07, 07:25 PM	actually upon further thought, the spell thief has true potential. I do like the idea of prepping to double your healing ability. I'll have to wait till my copy of complete adventurers is returned to me before I make any sort of decision. I've also am going to see if the cloistered cleric/thief idea is good. I'm going to try to take the god gond and take an initiate of gond feat to get disable device and open lock as class skills. Think of domains Earth, Fire, and knowledge (thanks to cloistered cleric). I'm debating whether to build towards techsmith (in faiths and pantheons) but am open to other options for a possible build. I think I better give a rundown of what the party will be. Human psion (blaster) Human wizard (utililty mage) Human cleric/barberian (hitter/healer) and one other. with this party build what would be the best. I'm thinking the cloistered cleric/thief, but will take any suggestions to take the ravenloft thief idea.
The Crimson Dawn 02-16-07, 01:43 AM	Dont forget about that alternate rouge ability from the PHB2, the one that lets you sack your sneak attack for a large penalty to your enemies ac. Hell if I have 2 attacks I just might use it on the first attack every time just so that the second attack can hit and so that my warrior friend can power attack that much more.