Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sci 11-03-05, 06:11 PM	Ok, a while back I put up an idea of a rager that uses barbarian, frenzied berzerker, and wildrunner to max three types of rages together, while using natural attacks. I didn't get much of a response... go figure, huh? I figured I'd map him out anyway, see what I get, if anyone has any ideas, ect. Base Stats: Str: 18 Dex: 17 con: 14 Int: 14 Wis: 10 Cha: 12 I hate putting a good stat in Int on such a rage-based concept, but I have to balance out 6 point drop from his race for the skill points needed... Race: Wood Elf (+2Str +2Dex -2Con -2Int, usual elf stuff aside from that1) Template: Feral (LA +1) (+4Str -2Dex +2Con -4Int +2Wis and a whole buncha template goodies) Modified Stats: Str: 25 (+1 from level 8) Dex: 18 (+1 from level 4) Con: 14 Int: 8 Wis: 12 Cha: 12 Level 1: Ranger - Power Attack Level 2: Barbarian Level 3: Fighter - Cleave, Intimidating Rage Level 4: Ranger +1Dex (Multiattack instead of Two-Weapon...DM is allowing it, since it says "replaces Two-Weapon Attack", he says Multiattack is a valid replacement feat) Level 5: Ranger Level 6: Fighter - Destructive Rage, Improved Natural Attack (claws) Level 7: Wildrunner Level 8: Wildrunner +1Str Level 9: Frenzied Berserker - Improved Multiattack this gives us, by ECL 10: BAB: +9 Fort: +15 (!) Ref: +10 Will: +2 (pitiful, I know...) BASE SPEED 60!! (with NO monk levels!!) Unarmored AC: 20 (+6 natural, +4 dex) (I could use hints for good armor to go with this guy by the way...) Now, when he gets totally angry, throws down that rage/frenzy/primal scream all at once: Str+12 Dex+6 Con+4 an extra set of natural weapons (fangs, 1d6) an extra hit each full attack (making for, with both multiattack feats, 7 attacks, unless you can use the extra natural weapons in that bonus round frenzy gives you, then it's 9) -6 to AC (halfway balanced out by the bonus dex) I mean you combine all this with the scent/track from wildrunner/ranger, fast healing from the feral template, (along w/improved grab, POUNCE, rake, and eventually rend abilities), and we've got one dirty little bastach here. I don't even think I should point out how fun he is with a set of beast claws (turning his claws into 3d6 base damage and magically enchanting his claws by +2). That's, when in all rages, a full attack damage set of: 3d6+15 (+22 to hit) - right claw + 3d6+8 (+22 to hit) - left claw + 1d6+8 (+22 to hit) - fangs + 3d6+15 (+22 to hit) - right claw Gotta love Frenzy + Improved Multiattack I don't even want to do the math. Point is, he's dangerous for ECL 10! Where do I go from here, folks? What does it deserve? (aside from the obvious amulet of natural attacks) What other levels will help fill this guy out into epic? I lay my creation at your optimizing hands.
Xeraph 11-03-05, 06:16 PM	It looks nice. You could throw in a level of Bear Warrior for insane strength damage. If i was you i would have put my second best stat in Con instread of Dex. Just my 10 pints.
Prominence 11-03-05, 06:38 PM	You could get pretty similar results with a feral shifter barbarian 2 / fighter 2 / warshaper 2/ Frenzied Berserker 1 I think at level 8, if you want to go to 9th look at berserker in dieties and demigods or bear warrior for the 9th level. I think it ends up being more damage.
ksbsnowowl 11-03-05, 07:02 PM	You might be interested in adding up to 4 or so levels of Berserker from Deities and Demigods. It gets Fury (Ex), which is similar to Rage and stacks with it. But you instead get +6 bonuses to Str and Con. It also gets, at third level, the ability to assume the form of a totem animal (chosen and fixed when you enter the class, from a list of things such as Brown Bear, Wolf, Raven, Chalot Whale, etc.) similar to wildshape, or a hybrid form (think sort of like a werewolf). There is no time limit on these forms, so just getting it once per day could allow you to remain in the form for years, if you so chose. The class does take a slight hit to BAB, as it only get 3/4 BAB, thus my suggestion of only taking 4 levels of it.
Prominence 11-03-05, 07:24 PM	the only problem with berserker is its rage-like ability is a standard action to activate though I think.
ksbsnowowl 11-04-05, 12:09 AM	You are correct, it is indeed a standard action... I'd forgotten that :( It's still good as a back-up, and the other abilities are nice (the hybrid bipedal form that gives you an unnamed +2 to Str and Con for as long as you choose to maintain it).
Seeker of Undeath 11-04-05, 01:55 AM	Feral wouldn't give you fast healing or any other ability unless the creature it's applied to has racial hit dice, correct?
Sci 11-04-05, 09:03 AM	Feral wouldn't give you fast healing or any other ability unless the creature it's applied to has racial hit dice, correct? Well, damn. I reread it. You're right about the pounce, rake, rend, and improved grab...but everything else it says Hit Dice, not Monsterous or Racial Hit Dice. So, the darkvision, fast healing, stat bonuses, natural armor, and whatnot stay. Still, the DM is letting the half-dragon use class levels as hit dice in his Awaken Frightful Presence ability, so I don't see why he'd get on me about that... You might be interested in adding up to 4 or so levels of Berserker from Deities and Demigods. It gets Fury (Ex), which is similar to Rage and stacks with it. But you instead get +6 bonuses to Str and Con. It also gets, at third level, the ability to assume the form of a totem animal (chosen and fixed when you enter the class, from a list of things such as Brown Bear, Wolf, Raven, Chalot Whale, etc.) similar to wildshape, or a hybrid form (think sort of like a werewolf). There is no time limit on these forms, so just getting it once per day could allow you to remain in the form for years, if you so chose. The class does take a slight hit to BAB, as it only get 3/4 BAB, thus my suggestion of only taking 4 levels of it. I'm gonna have to look that one up...damn, if I only HAD deities and demigods, I could look up the whole of it. One of my friends does, though. I might want to add that to the mix, if only enough to have him going with rage/primalscream/frenzy/fury at once. Oh man...that's just hilariously angry right there. I just picture a skinny ass little elf (ok, not SO skinny, over 20 base str for an elf is a one hell of a bulked up guy) getting really angry, and his muscles just kind of damnnear double in size, bulging out and tearing his clothes and junk from the sheer size increase. And of course, if I do go enough to get that wannabee wildshape ability, there's always two levels of Warshaper, which will add another d6 to each claws' damage, and 4 to Str and Con... but I digress, I really wanted to stick with anger over shaping, kind of showing the power of emotion sort of thing.
El_Machinae 11-04-05, 10:47 AM	A quick eyeballing says that this character is a 47 point character ... isn't that a little high? I mean, almost anything is awesome at 47 points. In addition, if your dm is allowing DD levels to count as racial hit dice (which is an extremely generous ruling, but neat too), then paragon levels might not be too bad. Sure ... elf paragon levels make this build look strange, but when you throw in the feral benefits, is it worth it?
Sang-Drax 11-04-05, 11:01 AM	You might as well take a look at Frostrager and Primeval, both from Frostburn.
Mirage_1 11-04-05, 11:19 AM	The only problem I see if the number of attacks. My understanding is that you could use iterative attacks OR natural attacks, not both.
Prominence 11-04-05, 11:20 AM	2 levels of chamelion would be good, too. You can pick up rage-effects depending on what you want that day such as Frozen Berserker from Frostburn or the Fire Berserker equivalent in Sandstorm, for some good immunities.
Sci 11-04-05, 11:54 AM	A quick eyeballing says that this character is a 47 point character ... isn't that a little high? I mean, almost anything is awesome at 47 points. Not really a point buy. And yes, a generous DM. Considering right now there's only two people in the group (cause people keep flaking out except me, the DM, and one other guy), he just went with "Take 85 points, put 'em wherever you want. Not a point buy, just...spread 'em out. Max 20 in any one stat." High-power campaign. We usually face CR of our level or higher with just the two of us, maybe an NPC thrown in to help. It gets pretty darn nasty. On the plus side, the other guy is a half-elf bard/spellsong/seekerofsong that has that half-elf substitution in the first level, so whenever the fight's over, he just uses soothing voice to cool my guy off. The only problem I see if the number of attacks. My understanding is that you could use iterative attacks OR natural attacks, not both. All he uses ARE natural attacks. That many hits is from a high BAB, multiattack/improved multiattack (both claws and fangs), and the extra hit from frenzy.
Prominence 11-04-05, 12:01 PM	All he uses ARE natural attacks. That many hits is from a high BAB, multiattack/improved multiattack (both claws and fangs), and the extra hit from frenzy. That's not what he meant. Essentially, you either get 2 claw attacks, 1 bite attack or your BaB-granted iterative attacks with 1 bite attack at -5 I think
Mirage_1 11-04-05, 12:04 PM	All he uses ARE natural attacks. That many hits is from a high BAB, multiattack/improved multiattack (both claws and fangs), and the extra hit from frenzy. Umm. If he is using just natural attacks, he does not get additional attacks from the high BAB. Multi-attack only reduces the panalty for using your non-primary attack. Not sure of improved multiattack (what is that from?). Of course, this is just from SRD, as I am at work. I don't know if any of the classes/template supercede what I am saying. If I am wrong, cool...I just what to know the how/why
Sci 11-04-05, 12:04 PM	That's not what he meant. Essentially, you either get 2 claw attacks, 1 bite attack or your BaB-granted iterative attacks with 1 bite attack at -5 I think Oh damn I read it wrong! All it does is COMPLETELY eliminate the penalty from secondary attacks, not give you extra ones like improved two-weapon...
Mirage_1 11-04-05, 12:08 PM	According to the multiattack feat, each secondary natural attack is at a -2. The requirement for the feat is at least three attacks, so it seems to make sense to me that all but the first would be at -2. right...but that would not let him any additional attacks, just reduce the penalties. as far as I can tell, he should only have Assuming a +22 to hit, and the bite being primary Single attack 1 bite at +22 to hit Full attack 1 bite at +22 to hit 2 claw at +20 to hit of course, if it was the claw primary Single Attack 1 claw at +22 to hit Full attack 1 bite at +20 to hit 2 claw at +22 to hit but...like I said earlier, I have no clue abou the improved multi-attack, never heard of it
Sci 11-04-05, 12:10 PM	Yeah I totally screwed it up. I misread improved multiattack. It's in savage species. What it does is completely eliminate the -5 penalty for nat. attacks, not give you extra ones...that's more improved two-weapon attack...I kinda thought the two were the same, since multiattack and two-weapon are the same. This makes me really have to relook things... Are you serious though? No extra hits with natural weapons, even if your BAB is high enough? That totally blows!
Mirage_1 11-04-05, 12:21 PM	Yeah I totally screwed it up. I misread improved multiattack. It's in savage species. What it does is completely eliminate the -5 penalty for nat. attacks, not give you extra ones...that's more improved two-weapon attack...I kinda thought the two were the same, since multiattack and two-weapon are the same. This makes me really have to relook things... Are you serious though? No extra hits with natural weapons, even if your BAB is high enough? That totally blows! well...cool information about the improved multi-attack. Will need to remember that for some of my monsters :-) As for the BAB. I think (heavy of the "I think") that you can opt to use the high BAB attacks instead of the monster attacks. Therefore, with a BAB of 9 and your build, you could have: 2 Claw at +22, 1 bite at +22 or 1 attack at +22, 1 attack at +17 of course the second alternative is horrible until a much higher BAB, lets raise you 10 levels. 2 Claw at +32, 1 bite at +32 or attacks of +32 / +27 / +22 / +12 more attacks, but less chance of hitting. Of course, if your plan is to use the iterative attacks, the 2 feats put to multi-attack are a waste. Of course, if you can get any feats/class abilities/whatever that give you a flury ability, I think (heavy again on the "I think") that that will help with your natural attacks, but I am seriously unsure on this
Xaktsaroth 11-04-05, 12:26 PM	You don't have to worry about the Feral thing, Templates DO advance with class HD. If you need proof, look under the Half-Fiend template in the MM, 7 HD(from classes) and he has the higher HD SLA. Secondly, Cust Serv has said templates do advance with class, and it seems to be the popular opinion among the CO'ers I've talked to since I've been here. So go nuts. Lastly, it DOES seem like your getting a hell of a lot of attacks, from a pure RAW standpoint, I'm not sure you can get additional natural attacks with the TWF chain. Any of the more experienced care to comment?
Khazra Reborn 11-04-05, 12:43 PM	As i understand it you can't get extra attacks with TWF & natural attacks, hence the reason for the rapid strike feats existing. Unfortuanetly most races don't qualify althouh a ritual (SS) could make thisdo-able. You could be a changeling & use the feat from races of eberron (or is it 5 nations?) that allows you to permenatly count as a different race. Doing this would still lets you acess wild runner, whilst being able to take a tasty 3 level dip into warshaper. Shifter is far better for a natural attacker: permeantly enlarged feral shifter* barbarian5/warshaper3/fighter1/FB10 *longtooth for a bite attacks With shifter savagery your natural attacks up 2 size catergories during a rage for 4 total increases. Your claws are a tasty 6D6 each. Weapons are far better for a charging build due to PA and the feats which make charging PA better (shock trooper & leap attack).
Sci 11-04-05, 01:00 PM	As i understand it you can't get extra attacks with TWF & natural attacks, hence the reason for the rapid strike feats existing. Unfortuanetly most races don't qualify althouh a ritual (SS) could make thisdo-able. You could be a changeling & use the feat from races of eberron (or is it 5 nations?) that allows you to permenatly count as a different race. Doing this would still lets you acess wild runner, whilst being able to take a tasty 3 level dip into warshaper. Shifter is far better for a natural attacker: permeantly enlarged feral shifter* barbarian5/warshaper3/fighter1/FB10 *longtooth for a bite attacks With shifter savagery your natural attacks up 2 size catergories during a rage for 4 total increases. Your claws are a tasty 6D6 each. Weapons are far better for a charging build due to PA and the feats which make charging PA better (shock trooper & leap attack). Ok, first off, it's a forgotten realms/planescape campaign, so we don't really delve into Eberron. Second, that's just one more feat I'd have to burn even if I did do the changeling thing to get into wildrunner, which means it'd be another three levels (or loss of that extra rage feat) to get into frenzied berserker. I think the berserker from Deities they were talking about would be a better means to dip into warshaper, 'cause then I get that fury ability they were talking about. As soon as I get my hands on Deities I'll be able to confirm it... He's not so much a charger as he is a rage-r, 'cause pounce only gives him that nice charge attack the first round anyway. Still, three attacks at full-base-attack bonus is nice, thanks to improved multiattack...the question is do I still get that extra hit from Frenzy if I go with natural attacks, at least? Oh, and what/where are the rapid strike feats? Maybe it was a brain fart, but I don't know...
ksbsnowowl 11-04-05, 01:04 PM	You don't have to worry about the Feral thing, Templates DO advance with class HD. If you need proof, look under the Half-Fiend template in the MM, 7 HD(from classes) and he has the higher HD SLA. Secondly, Cust Serv has said templates do advance with class, and it seems to be the popular opinion among the CO'ers I've talked to since I've been here.But Feral specifically says the abilities are based on monster/racial HD, ergo class HD will not raise those abilities. At least that is my rememberance; haven't read the feat in a while.
Sci 11-04-05, 01:36 PM	Ok, from what I read about The Berserk in Deities and Demigods, Battle Fury is definately a trait I want to add. The only problem with their beast shaping is you CANNOT do both Battle Fury and Shape at once, and as I've mentioned earlier, with this guy, anger comes first. So, only one level of this class is really needed. So I guess that would make him Ranger3/Barbarian1/Fighter2/Wildrunner2/FrenziedBerserker1/TheBerserk1 with Feral for a total ECL of 11... adding to our previous build ANOTHER 10 speed, the ability to go into battle fury, and another 2 to his base fort saves. Now, I could just finish off Frenzy if I wanted to kill the other 9 levels, but I know you guys can come up with more creative means to get this angry elf to unleash his inner rage. Perhaps if I find a means for more CON (at least 20 base) I can throw in Toughness (I hate that feat, especially because it's a prerequisite for...) and Involuntary Rage from Savage Species for even MORE rage bonuses...when he gets massive damage, that is. That gives me about five rage sources (Rage, Primal Scream, Frenzy, Battle Fury, and Involuntary Rage) with an overall bonus of (in basic stats alone) +22Str, +14Con and +6Dex, not to mention all the other stuff. Know of any more? If not that, the natural weapons comes second in priority for this build.
Khan the Destroyer 11-04-05, 01:41 PM	You cannot opt to use BAB for iterative attacks with natural weapons. He would have 3 natural attacks, plus 1 from Frenzy. If you decide to use a manufactured weapon, you would have 2 weapon attacks, 1 claw attack, 1 bite attack, and 1 frenzy attack, for a total of 5 attacks (1 more than going without a weapon). Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike are in Draconomicon. Basically, they allow you to use your BAB to gain additional attacks with your natural weapons as if they were manufactured weapons. It has to be a *pair* of natural weapons (so you could do it with your claws) and the racial requirements are limited. This character wouldn't qualify even as a Monstrous Humanoid unfortunately. I second the Berserk from Deities and Demigods if you get access to it. Four levels at the most, you don't want to take another hit to BAB. I would suggest any light armor, so as not to hamper your fast movement. My younger brother is currently playing a character similar to this. An Orc Barb/FrezBer/Bers with Eye of Gruumsh levels. His biggest weakness is his Will save. All of that multi-classing makes it atrocious. I would suggest a Ring of Mind Blank or something similar as soon as your DM lets you have access to it.
Archangel_Arcanis 11-04-05, 02:29 PM	something no one else mentioned, and it might be that they know something i don't, is taking a level in horizon walker to get the desert terain so that you are no longer fatiged from your coniption fit that you throw during a fight. only feat required is endurance which you should have gotten from ranger i don't remember the skill requirements but those shouldn't be too bad. Just a thought to thow at you.
Sci 11-04-05, 02:36 PM	something no one else mentioned, and it might be that they know something i don't, is taking a level in horizon walker to get the desert terain so that you are no longer fatiged from your coniption fit that you throw during a fight. only feat required is endurance which you should have gotten from ranger i don't remember the skill requirements but those shouldn't be too bad. Just a thought to thow at you. You know, I was just about to ask about ways to get rid of the fatigue problem...all those fatigue penalties, I don't know if they'd stack, but if they did he'd be pretty darn useless after the anger wore off. What book is Horizon Walker from?
Quenditar 11-04-05, 02:42 PM	It's in the DMG (and SRD). All you need to get in are 8 ranks in Knowledge (Geography) and Endurance.
Sci 11-04-05, 02:52 PM	It's in the DMG (and SRD). All you need to get in are 8 ranks in Knowledge (Geography) and Endurance. Ok, definately a class worth pumping a level into for the immunity to fatigue, good BAB, and good fort. Seriously, by the time this guy is level 20 he's going to be able to drink dwarven ale spiked with epic poison and laugh about it with his fort save. Damn good thing Knowledge (Geography) is a ranger skill. Still, with that, the wildrunner requirements, and that low int score, this guy is gonna have like no skills outside fo the prereqs for his prestige classes. Oh well. Who needs skill when you can claw a hole through a solid steel wall? So now we have Feral killing a level, then Ranger3/Fighter2/Barbarian1/Wildrunner2/FrenzyBerserker1/TheBerserk1/HorizonWalker1 at ECL 12. Lookin' pretty good gentlemen...(and any ladies that might've posted, since I'm too lazy to look at all the profiles).
Khazra Reborn 11-04-05, 03:34 PM	just remembered something, you realise with a +2 will save your going to kill everything alive near you and then start bashing rocks & trees right?
Sci 11-04-05, 03:52 PM	just remembered something, you realise with a +2 will save your going to kill everything alive near you and then start bashing rocks & trees right? Half-elf bard in the party with the first racial substitution level and soothing voice ability. I.E. Calm Emotions with a will save = to his diplomacy check (he has a +30 overall modifier at 12th level, or so I believe). When the fight's over, he talks to my guy in his soothing voice, my guy calms down, violent actions stop.
Khazra Reborn 11-04-05, 03:56 PM	well covered...it also means that enemies can be made friendly so you can suprise them with your raging nastyness :cool:
MissApocalycious 11-04-05, 04:07 PM	Half-elf bard in the party with the first racial substitution level and soothing voice ability. I.E. Calm Emotions with a will save = to his diplomacy check (he has a +30 overall modifier at 12th level, or so I believe). When the fight's over, he talks to my guy in his soothing voice, my guy calms down, violent actions stop. The day your friend is silenced/stunned/disabled by your enemy and then gets crushed with your frenzy still going will be an interesting one indeed; It might be a good idea to have a fairly reliable backup plan.
Sci 11-04-05, 10:23 PM	I THINK I've found all of the rage-benefit class combos in the game with this...so where do I go from here? I could finish up FrenzyBerz so I get the Frenzy bonus to Str to go to +10 instead of +6, which of course is nice, and it would go into epic FB by 22, but...I mean, where's the fun in that? Then again, i could mix in a few more fighter levels for bonus feats (I wonder if Extend Rage would work for ALL of those abilities, or just "Rage" itself), or another barbarian for uncanny dodge, which is nice... I considered two levels of Psywarrior, if only because you get two instant feats for the cost of just dropping one BAB. Then again, I could use a will save bonus somewhere... Warrior of Darkness does give good BAB AND a good Will Save...any other ideas?
Xaktsaroth 11-04-05, 11:06 PM	But Feral specifically says the abilities are based on monster/racial HD, ergo class HD will not raise those abilities. At least that is my rememberance; haven't read the feat in a while. True, however, with LA +0 races(Human's, Dwarves, Elves, etc...), and a few other races, they derive their racial HD from their class HD. The Half-Fiend from the MM was Human, correct? So, 7 HD Class = 7 racial HD for humans, and/or any other race that derives racial HD from class HD. :) So it still works. :)
Prominence 11-05-05, 03:41 AM	These aren't all the rage-based classes, since Singh Rager (OA) still exists but you cannot use it. Also there's half-orc paladin racial substitution levels, giving you Righteous Fury. frostburn has frostrager with frostrage.
Sci 11-05-05, 11:01 AM	These aren't all the rage-based classes, since Singh Rager (OA) still exists but you cannot use it. Also there's half-orc paladin racial substitution levels, giving you Righteous Fury. frostburn has frostrager with frostrage. Why can't I use Singh Rager? DM's allowing OA stuff. I don't happen to OWN the book so I have no idea how to get into the class or anything, but is there a specific reason? As for the half-orc thing...eh, all the ELF ragers. Wildrunner is pretty sweet. Gonna have to look up Frostrager as soon as I can find a friend w/Frostburn. I've also heard about something in Sandstorm similar, but with fire...
Faragon 11-05-05, 11:33 AM	You have to be lawful to qualify for SinghRager. You cannot be lawful without losing your barbarian abilities.
Sci 11-05-05, 11:48 AM	You serious? You can't even be neutral for the class? Also, I wonder what happens if a Frostrager has the Blazing Berserker feat from Sandstrom... will they cancel each other out, or offer immunity to both? (I don't really KNOW that frostrager has immunity to ice, since I haven't gotten my hands on a Frostburn, just a Sandstorm so far, but I mean, the name says it all...)
DrowSmurf 11-05-05, 12:26 PM	Hexblade might be nice to take for 3 levels, you will get full BAB, the lame curse, Cha to saves vs spells... useless..., Mettle.... Fort and Will Evasion..., and +3Will save as for FrenzeB... going up to 8th level looks nice, better frenzy, better Power Attack, and Deathless Frenzy... perhaps a 1 level dip into Bloodhound from Complete Adven, you get swift tracker... nothing huge really... just some fun roleplayingness if you want...any higher than level one if stuff you probably wouldnt use... like subdual damage lol one of my friends recently had an idea to do this but with some levels of dread pirate... so he is a complete gentlemen until he starts raging... all of his crewmen were really nice to him... a good feat may be Second Wind from Miniatures Handbook... you heal HP=ConMod 1/day.... free action... may be nice if you are Hulking(using all rages, i picture you turning into the Hulk) Shadow Scout may be nice... for 2 levels you get Evasion, favored enemy, fast movement, full BAB, good Fort, you just have to be nonevil, BAB4, Run,Track, Hide, Spot, Mve Silent all 9 ranks... from OA which would then qualify you for Nightsong Enforcer from Complete Advent, take a level of that for full BAB and Sneak Attack +1d6 which further qualifies you for... Highland Stalker a fw pages before Nightsong... you gain Mountain Stride, some Skirmish, and other cool abilities.. these last 3 PrCs i suggested because you cant go any further with your rage stuff lol without going up in your already taken classes... this little 4 lvl PrC combo is kinda nice... which i just discovered thanks to you! if you decide to go evil though Soul Eater would be great with all your natural attacks... from BoVD
Sci 11-05-05, 12:35 PM	HOLY CRAP I totally forgot about Soul Eater!!! And he's Monsterous Humanoid, so he totally qualifies for it!!! Ooooh, I'm drooling here! The minatures feat is kinda moot, considering I have Fast Healing from Feral and all... awesome suggestions though! I'm gonna look 'em all up.
DrowSmurf 11-05-05, 12:36 PM	Shadow Scout is on page 44 of Oriental Adventures
Sci 11-05-05, 01:16 PM	So, now I have to find a way to fit together all of the following: the feral template 3 levels of ranger 1 level of barbarian 2 levels of fighter 2 levels of wildrunner 1 level of frenzied berserker (min BAB 6) 1 level of the berserk (min BAB 5) 1 level of horizon walker at LEAST 2 levels of soul eater (min BAB 5) and if I can squeeze it in, a level of frostrager (min BAB 6) (the improved unarmed strike is a waste of a feat, and the only good thing i get is the natural armor bonus when raging, since the claws hit way more than the ice fists...unless the DM will allow the ice damage on his claws. that'd be dirty) and the following feats power attack (frenzied berserker, frostrager) cleave (frenzied berserker) destructive rage (frenzied berserker) intimidating rage (frenzied berserker) improved unarmed attack (frostrager) alertness (soul eater) weapon focus - claw (soul eater) frozen berserker (frostrager) firey berserker (to balance out frostrager weakness, making immune to fire & cold) extra rage (optional, but desired) extend rage (optional, but desired) improved natural attack (just 'cause it fits) multiattack (comes with that second ranger level, according to DM will replace TWF) improved multiattack (three hits at FULL BAB? FOUR with frenzy?!? HELL YEAH!!!) and the following skills knowledge arcana: 2 ranks (soul eater) intimidate: 4 ranks (frostrager) survival: 4 ranks (frostrager) 8 ranks: (wildrunner) knowledge geography: 8 ranks (horizon walker) hide: 5 ranks (wildrunner) knowledge nature: 5 ranks (wildrunner) move silently: 5 ranks (wildrunner) I don't know how I'm doing this... I might have to drop in two levels of PsyWarrior to get the bonus feats (they can use fighter feats, yay!) just to get the feats without wasting a level in fighter and not getting a feat. This could be difficult. Still, it will be an enjoyable result, I believe... and coming up with a backstory for all this, PHEW! DM allows ANYTHING if you can work the story in.
DrowSmurf 11-05-05, 01:37 PM	if you take 2 levels or Psy Warrior you will be 16HD and 1 feats short of that list... so i suggest dropping the Extra Rage for now... at least until your 18HD feat... Mind Over Body is a nice feat that lets you heal ability damage=ConMod every day... after the Psy Warrior you could go Illithid Slayer, a favorite among the CO board, for full BAB and more manifesting levels in your Psy Warrior... except for first level of Illithid Slayer... and good Will saves... so you could go from 16HD 2LA to 18HD with 2 levels of IS for your 20ECL, nothing really huge from it i guess... actualyl it probably isnt worth it lol if you are willing to drop another BAB then your last 2 levels could be a Kineticist (Pyro or other variant Variant Energy Kineticists here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625e) ) page 151 of EPH... you would get Hand Afire for another 2d6 fire (or 2d4 sonic or 2d6-2 cold,elec,acid) damage on your natural attacks...
Sci 11-05-05, 01:44 PM	I really don't want to go too much psion with this guy, I just thought PsyWar for the bonus feats. Besides, Feral is only a +1 LA, not +2.
DrowSmurf 11-05-05, 01:49 PM	oh, well the Pyro PrC isnt psionic cast at all, its mostly the cool abilities
Sci 11-05-05, 02:01 PM	Pyro's nice, but one of the players just told me he's going for it. Besides that, hand of fire affects unarmed attacks, and I don't know if it will natural. It's kind of like the whole ice strike with frostrager, open to debate. And the fire whip is essentially useless to him. And the will save and BAB kinda suck. Plus, with blazing berserker, or whatever it's called, i get immunity to fire when raging anyway.
Sci 11-05-05, 02:47 PM	Ok, let's see if I got this straight and reworked: Base Stats: Str: 18 Dex: 14 con: 17 Int: 14 Wis: 10 Cha: 12 Race: Wood Elf (+2Str +2Dex -2Con -2Int, usual elf stuff aside from that) Template: Feral (LA +1) (+4Str -2Dex +2Con -4Int +2Wis and a whole buncha template goodies) Modified Stats: Str: 25 (+1 from level 16,) Dex: 14 Con: 20 (+3 from level 4, level 8, level 12) Int: 8 Wis: 12 Cha: 12 Level 1: Ranger (Power attack) Level 2: Barbarian Level 3: Fighter (Cleave, Intimidating Rage) Level 4: Ranger (Multiattack instead of TWF) Level 5: Ranger Level 6: Fighter (Improved Natural Attack - Claws, Destructive Rage) Level 7: Wildrunner Level 8: Wildrunner Level 9: Frenzied Berserker (Frozen Berserker) Level 10: The Berserk Level 11: Frostrager Level 12: Horizon Walker (Firey Berserker) Level 13: Psychic Warrior (Altertness) Level 14: Psychic Warrior (Weapon Focus - Claw) Level 15: Soul Eater (Involuntary Rage) Level 16: Soul Eater Level 17: Bloodhound Level 18: Fighter (Improved Multiattack) Level 19: Fighter (Weapon Specialization - Claws) And that's my ECL 20 progression. I can't even BEGIN to add up how bloody high his Fort Save is, BAB somewhere around +17, and a combined ****** off rage that gives you +6 dex, +14 con, and a whopping +22 str (+26 if you count soul eating) with the bonus dex and natural armor bonus from frostrager balancing out the loss of AC from the rages, not to mention immunity to fire AND ice during this time, and bonus ice damage with each claw hit (depending on the DM's decision, I still haven't asked him if he'll allow claw damage to count as "unarmed" with that). Each hit with a natural weapon bestows negative levels to the victim, he's got scent, he's got fast tracking, he's got fast healing, he's got rending, he's got darkvision out the wazoo, he's immune to fatigue so he'll STILL be pretty bad-ass when he calms down... Still, he was fun to make thus far. his only weakness? one EXTREMELY pitiful will save. I mean worthless will save. so he's really just a fun concept, but any caster could mutilate him as soon as their turn came up. Magic items needed/wanted/desired: Beast Claws, definately! Amulet of Natural Attacks, OF COURSE!!! Ring of Mind Blank, most definately. After that...I'm not so sure. My brain hurts from making this guy in less than three days.
ksbsnowowl 11-06-05, 11:13 AM	HOLY CRAP I totally forgot about Soul Eater!!! And he's Monsterous Humanoid, so he totally qualifies for it!!!Not sure if you'd like this class, but Thayan Gladiator from Champions of Ruin gets bonuses to natural attacks as well. It requires you to be evil.... I never saw where you stated this guy's alignment. Within the first three levels he gets Improved Natural attack for free, and improved critical for free, a boost to natural armor, and the ability to stun opponents with your natural attack. In later levels your natural attacks count as silver, adamantine, and magic, you get to make an additional natural attack each round at your BAB-5, and your crit multiplier on your nat attack raises by 1. You also get to apply a magical property to your nat attack, from a list such as flaming, frost, etc, and later flaming burst, anarchic, speed, etc.
Sci 11-06-05, 12:25 PM	Not sure if you'd like this class, but Thayan Gladiator from Champions of Ruin gets bonuses to natural attacks as well. It requires you to be evil.... I never saw where you stated this guy's alignment. Within the first three levels he gets Improved Natural attack for free, and improved critical for free, a boost to natural armor, and the ability to stun opponents with your natural attack. In later levels your natural attacks count as silver, adamantine, and magic, you get to make an additional natural attack each round at your BAB-5, and your crit multiplier on your nat attack raises by 1. You also get to apply a magical property to your nat attack, from a list such as flaming, frost, etc, and later flaming burst, anarchic, speed, etc. WHOA! Never heard of the class, or even the book, but now I have to look that up, so... looks like I have to find it, check it out, and rework the build if it's as good as you say. This guy is totally an evolving creature in the works. Geeze, combine that with a necklace of natural attacks and improved multiattack and...well, wow. And you can't eat souls without being evil. That's just a given.
Sci 04-26-06, 07:01 PM	So, I got to play this guy (as mapped out in Reply #48) in a game recently, and let me say, oh dear gamer friends, this was one sweet character. I never really brought attention to the loooow will save and for some reason our DM wasn't much into spells, so I was tearing trees out of the ground at level fifteen with my bare hands and beating people to death with them and all sorts of fun in a gladiator's ring, and... well... he finally got the idea in his head to start trying Power Word Kill and Cloudkill and that other stuff... I died a little on the inside that day. Questions for the New Improved Version: 1. How can I save my baby from this if I play him again? I really seriously need to up will save on it, but very little on the build is negotiable... I can drop the Bloodhound level, even though the fast-tracking was uber-useful and added to the ferral flavor, and while the two levels of Soul Eater are excellent (and build the will save nicely) they're not a huge part of the flavor of the character, and force him to be evil. Psychic warrior aren't great at all, but I used them to get two feats in a row, both of which were solely for Soul Eater, so if you can help there... 2. Is there anything rage/natural attack related in the books that have come out in the past six months, like Races of the Dragon, that would benefit? I haven't gotten any of those yet. 3. Can I SOMEHOW work in that Rapidstrike set of feats? Oooh...*drools in Homer-esque fashion* that would be sweet. One suggestion I had was to swallow an antimagic amulet or something of the sort, maybe tear the belly open and put it inside, watch it heal over with fast healing...
ravenkith 04-27-06, 01:10 PM	Ok. Well, first things first: bring up your wisdom modifier. That'll increase your will save right there. Oh, and you should totally take a look at the psychic warrior 1st level (i think) power expansion. Then, you need to start thinking about SR, spellturning, or, if your DM is stupid enough to go for it (hey, he was dumb enough to allow the character in the first place, right ;) ) an epic vest +1 of greater reflecting. (Check the SRD, under epic magic items). Failing that, an item granting continuous death ward would do in a pinch.
ksbsnowowl 04-27-06, 02:18 PM	Look into the feat Cumbrus Will from Savage Species. It requires Iron Will as a prereq, and grants you a +6 bonus on Will saves (though you can choose when to apply it). After you apply it, however, you are shaken for the remainder of the encounter.
Sci 04-27-06, 04:54 PM	Ok. Well, first things first: bring up your wisdom modifier. That'll increase your will save right there. Oh, and you should totally take a look at the psychic warrior 1st level (i think) power expansion. Then, you need to start thinking about SR, spellturning, or, if your DM is stupid enough to go for it (hey, he was dumb enough to allow the character in the first place, right ;) ) an epic vest +1 of greater reflecting. (Check the SRD, under epic magic items). Failing that, an item granting continuous death ward would do in a pinch. Ok, so in addition to my essential beast claws, necklace of nat attacks, belt of str, ring of protect, ring of growth, bracers of armor (by the time he's in full rage dex will be so high any armor will be useless) i should probably add periapt of wisdom, cloak of resistance, and... something that adds spell resistance, and something that stops death effects Aside from boots, what slots does that leave me, really? Custom items obviously, a lot of DMs I've played for don't allow that unless you make them with the feats yourself, which this guy is obviously not made to do. i thought expansion was just like "enlarge self" really? i already had it and skating (for the extra speed, really no other 1st-level manifistation was any decent) as my choices of manifestations for psychic warrior already... Look into the feat Cumbrus Will from Savage Species. It requires Iron Will as a prereq, and grants you a +6 bonus on Will saves (though you can choose when to apply it). After you apply it, however, you are shaken for the remainder of the encounter. I'm familiar with the feat, and I like the idea of that and Iron Will, but once again, where to fit it in...I'd have to restructure the whole thing, and the only things I can see eliminating are that level in Bloodhound (which is nice for flavor, as I said, and fast tracking, but not really essential) and probably those last two levels of fighter, since weapon specialization isn't great.
CappyTheMule 04-27-06, 09:56 PM	If you are running FR, I'd also consider taking the Snow Tiger Berserker feat from UE. It allows you to make a full attack at the end of a charge w/ a light weapon (which Natural Attacks qualify as). This would help your mobility while capitalizing on the gratuitous amount of attacks your char gets ;) . Also, if you're tight on feats, see if you can't get your DM to let you use Flaws from Unearthed Arcana.
Sci 04-28-06, 08:38 AM	If you are running FR, I'd also consider taking the Snow Tiger Berserker feat from UE. It allows you to make a full attack at the end of a charge w/ a light weapon (which Natural Attacks qualify as). This would help your mobility while capitalizing on the gratuitous amount of attacks your char gets ;) . Also, if you're tight on feats, see if you can't get your DM to let you use Flaws from Unearthed Arcana. Hmm, good idea....I mean, I already do get pounce the first round of combat with the feral template, but more than one round would always be nice. Does it allow more than 1 round of it? Cause otherwise I'm all good with the Pounce from the Feral template. Flaws would be an awesome idea. Aren't there a max of two flaws allowed with two feat payoffs? Would be just enough for Iron Will and Cumbrus Will...or if they allow more I could sneak in this Snow Tiger Berserker and maybe even the Improved Crit chain or Greater Weapon Focus (so I'm ready for the epic chains...as if I wouldn't be using the epic rage chains already that is).
ravenkith 04-28-06, 09:50 AM	I'm pretty sure it's two flaws only.
ksbsnowowl 04-28-06, 10:35 AM	Does [Snow Tiger Berserker] allow more than 1 round of [pouncing]? Cause otherwise I'm all good with the Pounce from the Feral template.Any round you make a charge, and are wielding only light weapons, you can make a full attack also.
Sci 04-28-06, 10:42 AM	Any round you make a charge, and are wielding only light weapons, you can make a full attack also. Sweet! Now, if I could just find a way to allow me to take the Rapidstrike feats... *drools* 7 hits after a charge... oooh...combined with his full rage... 8 hits...at oh...I can't even do the math right now...a bunch of really high modifiers. Such evil thoughts. What's the prereqs for that feat? I don't have the book on me right now, my g/f is borrowing it.
ksbsnowowl 04-28-06, 12:31 PM	Rapid Strike is hard for a typical PC to qualify for, as it is restricted in what types of creatures can take it. IIRC, you must be type Dragon, Abberation, or one other that I can't remember. One of the races in the XPH is the only one I know of that can qualify (Elan or Dromite, I don't recall which).
DaveTheMagicWeasel 04-28-06, 01:11 PM	There are also a couple of natural attack based PrCs in Champions of Ruin which have yet to be mentioned - the Black Blood Cultist and the Thayan Gladiator (I prefer the Thayan Gladiator myself) The Thayan Gladiator requires Toughness and Weapon Focus (any natural weapon), but then grants Improved Natural Attack and Improved Critical as bonus feats, as well as making your natural weapons count as adamantium, magical and silver, and gives an enhancement bonus and magical abilities to your natural weapons (you have to choose one that the class advances - so go with your claws). It also adds a stunning effect to your criticals, and increases the multiplier (rare in 3.5). Perhaps most importantly, at 4th level it gives you an additional attack with your chosen natural weapon (depending on how your DM reads that it might give an extra attack with both of your claws). The Black Blood Cultist stacks with barbarian levels for determining rage, grants rend, improved natural attack feat, scent and a few other things. You need Improved Unarmed Strike and Track, along with a few skill points to qualify for it.
Sci 04-28-06, 01:23 PM	Rapid Strike is hard for a typical PC to qualify for, as it is restricted in what types of creatures can take it. IIRC, you must be type Dragon, Abberation, or one other that I can't remember. One of the races in the XPH is the only one I know of that can qualify (Elan or Dromite, I don't recall which). It's Elan, they're abberations I'm pretty sure. And that would kinda kill the whole build, since 1. It couldn't qualify for Wildrunner, and 2. A feral Elan just doesn't make sense.
Sci 04-28-06, 01:28 PM	There are also a couple of natural attack based PrCs in Champions of Ruin which have yet to be mentioned - the Black Blood Cultist and the Thayan Gladiator (I prefer the Thayan Gladiator myself) ... The Black Blood Cultist stacks with barbarian levels for determining rage, grants rend, improved natural attack feat, scent and a few other things. You need Improved Unarmed Strike and Track, along with a few skill points to qualify for it. Thayan Gladiator was actually mentioned earlier, and I liked it, but I don't like the prerequisites, not to mention it takes a pretty hefty dip into the class before you really get benefits, and the rage stuff is the primary with this character, the natty weapons being secondary. But, Black Blood Cultist I'll have to check out. Sounds like it's kinda sub-part to the feral stuff, but I'll have to look. Thanks!
Sci 04-28-06, 03:16 PM	Ok, this time I'm making one workable in a regular point buy, with all the new info you guys gave me. Standard 28 point buy: Str - 14 Dex - 14 Con - 14 Int - 14 Wis - 12 Cha - 8 Race: WildElf (+2dex, -2int, other elf stuff) Template: Feral (LA +1, +4str -2dex +2con -4int +2wis and a whole buncha template goodies) Adjusted Stats (without magic items) Str - 18 Dex - 14 Con - 16 Int - 8 Wis - 14 Cha - 8 Level Build: (Feat)(*BonusFeatChoice*)**statincrease* * 01. Ranger1 (Power Attack) 02. Ranger1/Barbarian1 03. Ranger1/Barbarian1/Fighter1 (*Cleave*, Intimidating Rage) 04. Ranger2/Barbarian1/Fighter1 (*Multiattack* instead of TWF) **CON** 05. Ranger2/Barbarian1/Fighter2 (*Toughness* - try to get Imp Toughness DM allows) 06. Ranger3/Barbarian1/Fighter2 (Weapon Focus - Claws) 07. Rgr3/Barb1/Ftr2/ThayanGladiator1 08. Rgr3/Barb1/Ftr2/ThayanGladiator2 **CON** 09. Rgr3/Barb1/Ftr2/ThayG2/FrenziedBerserker1 (Improved Multiattack) 10. Rgr3/Barb1/Ftr2/ThayG2/FrenBer1/TheBerserk1 11. Rgr3/Barb1/Ftr2/ThayG2/FrenBer1/TBers1/Wildrunner1 12. Rgr3/Barb1/Ftr2/ThayG2/FrenBer1/TBers1/Wildrunner2 (Alertness) **CON** 13. Rgr3/Barb1/Ftr2/ThayG2/FrenBer1/TBers1/WRun2/SoulEater1 14. Rgr3/Barb1/Ftr2/ThayG2/FrenBer1/TBers1/WRun2/SoulEater2 15. Rgr3/Barb1/Ftr2/ThayG2/FrenBer1/TBers1/WRun2/Soul2/HorizonWalker1 16. Rgr3/Barb1/Ftr2/ThayG2/FrenBer1/TBer1/WRun2/Soul2/HWalk1/PsychicWarrior1 (*FrozenBerserker*) **CON 17. Rgr3/Barb1/Ftr2/ThayG2/FrenBer1/TBer1/WRun2/Soul2/HWalk1/PsychicWarrior2 (*FireyBerserker*) 18. Rgr3/Barb1/Ftr2/ThayG2/FrenBer1/TBer1/WRun2/Soul2/HWalk1/PWar2/Frostrager1 (Involuntary Rage) 19. Rgr3/Barb1/Ftr2/ThayG2/FrenBer1/TBer1/WRun2/Soul2/HWalk1/PWar2/Bloodhound (((Level 19 is essentially anything. I put in Bloodhound 'cause it works well with the wild animal thing.))) Essential Items: Beast Claws, Necklace of Natural Attacks, Ring of Mind Blank, Ring of Growth, Bracers of Armor (cause armor is gonna suck when he's raged and dex goes to 20), Belt of Giant Str, Gloves of Dex (same reason as armor bracers), Periapt of Wisdom, Cloak of Resistance, anything with Spell Resistance, something to stop Death Effects Possible Flaws (to trade off for Iron Will and Cumbrus Will or Snow Tiger Berserker): Meager Fortitude (you're really gonna have an unbelievable fort save by the tenth level or so) Pathetic (who needs Charisma? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So, what do you think? Does it top Reply#48? Anything I can improve/getridof/ect? I need to somehow squeeze in SnowTigerBerserker, but I can't think of a way, other than flaws. Critiques along with improvement ideas and/or kudos are appreciated. :)
Sci 05-26-06, 03:52 PM	PHB2 has given me a few more ideas to throw in here, and Steadfast Determination actually makes this character's will save something viable!! Also, I can't believe I forgot Reckless Rage, what was I thinking? Snow Tiger Berserker allows for a full attack every single round when charging, which is nice... Standard 28 point buy: Str - 14 Dex - 14 Con - 14 Int - 14 Wis - 12 Cha - 8 Race: WildElf (+2dex, -2int, other elf stuff) Template: Feral (LA +1, +4str -2dex +2con -4int +2wis and a whole buncha template goodies) Adjusted Stats (without magic items) Str - 18 Dex - 14 Con - 16 Int - 8 Wis - 14 Cha - 8 Level Build: (Feat)(*BonusFeatChoice*)**statincrease* * Flaws: Meager Fortitude - (Power Attack), Pathetic Charisma (Alertness) 01. Ranger1 (Toughness) 02. Ranger1/Barbarian1 03. Ranger1/Barbarian1/Fighter1 (*Cleave*, Intimidating Rage) 04. Ranger2/Barbarian1/Fighter1 (*Multiattack* instead of TWF) **CON** 05. Ranger2/Barbarian1/Fighter2 (*Weapon Focus - Claws*) 06. Ranger3/Barbarian1/Fighter2 (Steadfast Determination) 07. Rgr3/Barb1/Ftr2/ThayanGladiator1 08. Rgr3/Barb1/Ftr2/ThayanGladiator2 **CON** 09. Rgr3/Barb1/Ftr2/ThayG2/FrenziedBerserker1 (Improved Multiattack) 10. Rgr3/Barb1/Ftr2/ThayG2/FrenBer1/TheBerserk1 11. Rgr3/Barb1/Ftr2/ThayG2/FrenBer1/TBers1/Wildrunner1 12. Rgr3/Barb1/Ftr2/ThayG2/FrenBer1/TBers1/Wildrunner2 (Snow Tiger Berserker) **CON** 13. Rgr3/Barb1/Ftr2/ThayG2/FrenBer1/TBers1/WRun2/SoulEater1 14. Rgr3/Barb1/Ftr2/ThayG2/FrenBer1/TBers1/WRun2/SoulEater2 15. Rgr3/Barb1/Ftr2/ThayG2/FrenBer1/TBers1/WRun2/Soul2/HorizonWalker1 16. Rgr3/Barb1/Ftr2/ThayG2/FrenBer1/TBer1/WRun2/Soul2/HWalk1/PsychicWarrior1 (*FrozenBerserker*) **CON 17. Rgr3/Barb1/Ftr2/ThayG2/FrenBer1/TBer1/WRun2/Soul2/HWalk1/PsychicWarrior2 (*Reckless Rage*) 18. Rgr3/Barb1/Ftr2/ThayG2/FrenBer1/TBer1/WRun2/Soul2/HWalk1/PWar2/Frostrager1 (Involuntary Rage) 19. Rgr3/Barb1/Ftr2/ThayG2/FrenBer1/TBer1/WRun2/Soul2/HWalk1/PWar2/anything
Medicelious-Melharmonac 05-26-06, 04:10 PM	(I could use hints for good armor to go with this guy by the way...) Armor of the Unending Hunt = +2 Mithril Chain (Light armor) with the ability to NEVER be fatigued or Exhausted....
Subedei 05-26-06, 05:17 PM	I didn't read half the thread so this may have already been mentioned but you can certainly use full iterative attacks and all the natural weapons you like via Improved Unarmed Strike. We've contacted customer service concerning the Feral template several times, their response was always that any HD will do for advancing the template, including class levels.
Sci 05-26-06, 06:55 PM	I didn't read half the thread so this may have already been mentioned but you can certainly use full iterative attacks and all the natural weapons you like via Improved Unarmed Strike. Well, are you meaning to say that IUS can have the effect of rapidstrike and improved rapid strike, and if so, will it combine with multiattack and improved multiattack? Cause if it can, that's a nasty nine hit combo that really would be sweet.