A rogue with a bit of warlock [Archive] - Wizards Community

A rogue with a bit of warlock [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
kafit
05-22-06, 11:15 PM Alright, so for a bit of flavor and because I like the idea, I wanted to mix some warlock levels in with rogue, kind of throw in a little bit of dark magiciany powers and give him a nifty natural ranged attack. What I was wondering is, how many levels of warlock would be best to throw in if I just want to go straight rogue afterwards?
temillion
05-22-06, 11:39 PM Take Warlock to the 3rd level and pick up Eldritch Spear and Baleful Utterance. By 3rd level you'll have DR 1, detect magic at will, and a eldritch blast that deals 2d6. Further with your two Invocations you'll be able to strike from 250 feat and cast Shatter at will.

Your BaB is the same as a Rouge and you'll have a better will save at the expense of the other two.
Surreal
05-22-06, 11:52 PM I say 2 or 4 levels. You get detect magic and your second invocation at 2nd level, and you get the almight ability to take 10 on UMD checks at level 4 plus a third invocation. If you're progressing rogue and sneaks, you don't really care how much damage the EB does.
runestar
05-23-06, 12:20 AM I would say take even lvs of warlock, since you get a new invocation every even lv.
Surreal
05-23-06, 12:29 AM I would say take even lvs of warlock, since you get a new invocation every even lv.
... except after 11, where it's every odd level. But by then you're not dipping anymore :D
kafit
05-23-06, 12:51 AM Yeah, I was thinking that 4th level would be ideal. What do you guys think for invocations?
Surreal
05-23-06, 01:07 AM That really depends on what kind of rogue you want to play as they can all be quite useful.
SalParadise
05-23-06, 04:03 AM Does sneak attack damage stack with eldritch blast (within 30 feet, of course)?
MingThing
05-23-06, 04:31 AM i think the sneak attack stack with eldrich blast. read it somewhere. but only within the range limits of normal ranged sneak attack. and the sneak does same type of damage as what is used to sneak with. In other words, u use brimstone blast, u do fire sneak.
Mommy was an Orc
05-23-06, 08:45 AM Alright, so for a bit of flavor and because I like the idea, I wanted to mix some warlock levels in with rogue, kind of throw in a little bit of dark magiciany powers and give him a nifty natural ranged attack. What I was wondering is, how many levels of warlock would be best to throw in if I just want to go straight rogue afterwards?

Do you want to go straight rogue afterwards?

Rogue 3/Warlock 7/Daggerspell Mage 10 is pretty potent as a Rogue if you get the Able Learner feat from Races of Destiny and you're eventually a 16th level Warlock too.
Xeraph
05-23-06, 08:59 AM Do you want to go straight rogue afterwards?

Rogue 3/Warlock 7/Daggerspell Mage 10 is pretty potent as a Rogue if you get the Able Learner feat from Races of Destiny and you're eventually a 16th level Warlock too.
Had the same idea, why switch between the two classes, when you can get the best of both at the same time?
mikkelibob
05-23-06, 10:31 AM If you are more interested in just a splash of warlock, you could use DSM with warlock and practiced spellcaster. Given the feat requirements you'd probably have to be either human or use flaws.
kafit
05-23-06, 10:39 AM My problem with the daggerspell mage is that it doesn't seem like the abilities it gives are going to be useful besides the daggercast ability and maybe invocation of the knife if you really want to slash something. The other abilities seem to use touch spells and spell slots, something a warlock doesn't actually have. What I see is sort of like the eldritch knight. Basic combat (in this case rogue combat because of the sneak attack pluses) and then the magic. I can see where it would be useful, but also wasted in many respects. Besides the DSM and Acolyte of the Skin, are there any PrCs which work with a warlock?
mikkelibob
05-23-06, 11:21 AM Yes, the DSM abilities are pointless for your warlock / rogue. That's not the point. Rather, its good because you can get in easily (CL5 and some decent, if not entirely optimal feats) and it has very nice skills. If you were able to squeeze in able learner, then you can really keep up with the skill monkey requirements.

Now I would be in favor of getting your DM to be flexible in Arcane Trickster requirements. If you could get mage hand (easily done enough with a feat) and your first lesser invocation, that should be enough - plus the skills of course. This would not be a super uber combo, so I think you could successfully argue the point. RAW of course, DSM is the only way to successfully multiclass via a PrC. This same point extends to a rogue / shadowcaster with umbral hand. Its such an obvious connection that there should have been a tiny inset box in the TOM about just such an 'adaption'.
Mommy was an Orc
05-23-06, 11:23 AM My problem with the daggerspell mage is that it doesn't seem like the abilities it gives are going to be useful besides the daggercast ability and maybe invocation of the knife if you really want to slash something.

Who cares about the abilities other than the following 3?
6 skill points per level. With Able Learner, that's enough to maintain a decent Rogue-like status, especially if you take the invocation(s) which makes you have +6 bonus to various social rogue skills or tumbling ones.
+3d6 Sneak Attack over 10 levels. +5d6 Sneak with a chained 7d6 Eldritch Blast is pretty cool.
9/10 advancement - you're going to have 10 known invocations, including one Dark. 10.

Does your Rogue really have a problem with being able to Dimension Door, Fly, and turning Invisible at will?
Innervation
05-23-06, 01:01 PM 4 lvl's of warlock seems optimal: only lose 1 BAB and a good cut-off for abilities. Assuming your build doesn't lose BAB other than advancing rogue after that, I think it would benefit a lot from Telling Blow [6](PHBII) and Improved Critical(ray) [12].
Xeraph
05-23-06, 01:11 PM I think 6th level is a more optimal exit level, gives you a lesser invocation. Fell flight or Fleet the Scene comes to mind. Both abilities are much better than 12 ekstra skill points and an extra dice of sneak attack IMO.

But come one, DSM is really the way to go here.
kafit
05-23-06, 01:50 PM I see your point, it would be better progression overall this way. Does a character of this type focus on using his blast or on melee with the daggers though? Actually, does it matter so much with this build? It seems like this could do quite a bit... hmmm. Yes, I think I see why this build is favorable.
Xeraph
05-23-06, 02:07 PM This setup is strong in both aspects, but still best within 30ft with EB. Being a sneaky character you will have low hp, so do your part of combat 30ft away, preferably 30ft above. Get scrolls of Improved Invisibility so you can sneak attack with you EB every round. Quicken Spell Like Ability is nice later on, when enemy casters dispell you. Fell Flight or Fleet the Scene are to great choices for this feat, EB Quickened is also golden.

Since you will be an able wand wielder, and you have TWF, you might wanna consider taking the feat Craft Wand, Double Wand Wielder and Reckless Wand Wielder. Insta gib with a wand. Wands of Scorching Ray is always nice with this tactic, and you will be able to sneak attack untop of the wand damage.

By the way, how does Daggercast and Invocation of the Knife interact with EB? Can you use EB when attacking with a dagger? Is half of the damage dagger damage?
How about Double Daggercast? Can you store a EB in each dagger?
Daggerspell Flurry, lots of sneak attack and some EB aswell?
deathwishjoe
05-23-06, 08:06 PM I have a better option. lets go with arcane trickster for a great rogue and warlock mix.

human warlock 7/ rogue 1/ assassin 1/arcane trickster 10

1 precocious apprentice
h that feat that gives you the SLA to cast mage hand from complete arcane
3 heighten spell
6 earth mastery (dont remember if this is what its called its in races of stone)
9 earth spell

you can also get into arcane trickster with the illumian race.
1 precocious apprentice
3 improved sigil krau
6 that feat for the SLA to cast mage hand
Mommy was an Orc
05-23-06, 09:37 PM You don't have access to any schools of magic at 1st level, so you can't take a spell with Precocious Apprentice...not to mention, most people wanting to play Rogues like to average better than 3 skill points per level.

I have a better option. lets go with arcane trickster for a great rogue and warlock mix.

human warlock 7/ rogue 1/ assassin 1/arcane trickster 10

1 precocious apprentice
Kelynmor
05-23-06, 09:39 PM If you're really focused on being a rogue for more of the sneak attack abilities, but also like the flavor that warlock adds then consider this build...

Rogue 1 / Warlock 5 / Invis Blade 5 / Daggerspell Mage 9

What you get is:

~ +7D6 sneak attack (w/ daggers)
~ 7D6 eldritch blast
~ 8 invocations
~ Int to AC
~ Feint as a free action
~ the ability to ensure at least half of your damage from eldritch bolt is applied via Invocation of the Knife (coupled with vitriolic blast to bypass SR)

There really is great synergy between all of these classes. The only thing that's really questionable is if the DSM's abilities with spells would be able to be applied to you invocations. Since invocations are spell-like-abilities, I'd argue that they qualify, but check with your DM. There's just so many cool possibilities with this build! :D

Unfortunately you don't get Imp. Invis with this build like Mommy's. But I tend to think the synergy with InvisBlade makes up for it since it allows you to sneak attack every round anyway while taking 10 with your bluff checks to feint.

Hope this helps.

~Kel
kafit
05-23-06, 10:53 PM Btw, which invocations of a warlocks are NOT 24 hours, besides the blast shapes and essences?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kafit 05-22-06, 11:15 PM	Alright, so for a bit of flavor and because I like the idea, I wanted to mix some warlock levels in with rogue, kind of throw in a little bit of dark magiciany powers and give him a nifty natural ranged attack. What I was wondering is, how many levels of warlock would be best to throw in if I just want to go straight rogue afterwards?
temillion 05-22-06, 11:39 PM	Take Warlock to the 3rd level and pick up Eldritch Spear and Baleful Utterance. By 3rd level you'll have DR 1, detect magic at will, and a eldritch blast that deals 2d6. Further with your two Invocations you'll be able to strike from 250 feat and cast Shatter at will. Your BaB is the same as a Rouge and you'll have a better will save at the expense of the other two.
Surreal 05-22-06, 11:52 PM	I say 2 or 4 levels. You get detect magic and your second invocation at 2nd level, and you get the almight ability to take 10 on UMD checks at level 4 plus a third invocation. If you're progressing rogue and sneaks, you don't really care how much damage the EB does.
runestar 05-23-06, 12:20 AM	I would say take even lvs of warlock, since you get a new invocation every even lv.
Surreal 05-23-06, 12:29 AM	I would say take even lvs of warlock, since you get a new invocation every even lv. ... except after 11, where it's every odd level. But by then you're not dipping anymore :D
kafit 05-23-06, 12:51 AM	Yeah, I was thinking that 4th level would be ideal. What do you guys think for invocations?
Surreal 05-23-06, 01:07 AM	That really depends on what kind of rogue you want to play as they can all be quite useful.
SalParadise 05-23-06, 04:03 AM	Does sneak attack damage stack with eldritch blast (within 30 feet, of course)?
MingThing 05-23-06, 04:31 AM	i think the sneak attack stack with eldrich blast. read it somewhere. but only within the range limits of normal ranged sneak attack. and the sneak does same type of damage as what is used to sneak with. In other words, u use brimstone blast, u do fire sneak.
Mommy was an Orc 05-23-06, 08:45 AM	Alright, so for a bit of flavor and because I like the idea, I wanted to mix some warlock levels in with rogue, kind of throw in a little bit of dark magiciany powers and give him a nifty natural ranged attack. What I was wondering is, how many levels of warlock would be best to throw in if I just want to go straight rogue afterwards? Do you want to go straight rogue afterwards? Rogue 3/Warlock 7/Daggerspell Mage 10 is pretty potent as a Rogue if you get the Able Learner feat from Races of Destiny and you're eventually a 16th level Warlock too.
Xeraph 05-23-06, 08:59 AM	Do you want to go straight rogue afterwards? Rogue 3/Warlock 7/Daggerspell Mage 10 is pretty potent as a Rogue if you get the Able Learner feat from Races of Destiny and you're eventually a 16th level Warlock too. Had the same idea, why switch between the two classes, when you can get the best of both at the same time?
mikkelibob 05-23-06, 10:31 AM	If you are more interested in just a splash of warlock, you could use DSM with warlock and practiced spellcaster. Given the feat requirements you'd probably have to be either human or use flaws.
kafit 05-23-06, 10:39 AM	My problem with the daggerspell mage is that it doesn't seem like the abilities it gives are going to be useful besides the daggercast ability and maybe invocation of the knife if you really want to slash something. The other abilities seem to use touch spells and spell slots, something a warlock doesn't actually have. What I see is sort of like the eldritch knight. Basic combat (in this case rogue combat because of the sneak attack pluses) and then the magic. I can see where it would be useful, but also wasted in many respects. Besides the DSM and Acolyte of the Skin, are there any PrCs which work with a warlock?
mikkelibob 05-23-06, 11:21 AM	Yes, the DSM abilities are pointless for your warlock / rogue. That's not the point. Rather, its good because you can get in easily (CL5 and some decent, if not entirely optimal feats) and it has very nice skills. If you were able to squeeze in able learner, then you can really keep up with the skill monkey requirements. Now I would be in favor of getting your DM to be flexible in Arcane Trickster requirements. If you could get mage hand (easily done enough with a feat) and your first lesser invocation, that should be enough - plus the skills of course. This would not be a super uber combo, so I think you could successfully argue the point. RAW of course, DSM is the only way to successfully multiclass via a PrC. This same point extends to a rogue / shadowcaster with umbral hand. Its such an obvious connection that there should have been a tiny inset box in the TOM about just such an 'adaption'.
Mommy was an Orc 05-23-06, 11:23 AM	My problem with the daggerspell mage is that it doesn't seem like the abilities it gives are going to be useful besides the daggercast ability and maybe invocation of the knife if you really want to slash something. Who cares about the abilities other than the following 3? 6 skill points per level. With Able Learner, that's enough to maintain a decent Rogue-like status, especially if you take the invocation(s) which makes you have +6 bonus to various social rogue skills or tumbling ones. +3d6 Sneak Attack over 10 levels. +5d6 Sneak with a chained 7d6 Eldritch Blast is pretty cool. 9/10 advancement - you're going to have 10 known invocations, including one Dark. 10. Does your Rogue really have a problem with being able to Dimension Door, Fly, and turning Invisible at will?
Innervation 05-23-06, 01:01 PM	4 lvl's of warlock seems optimal: only lose 1 BAB and a good cut-off for abilities. Assuming your build doesn't lose BAB other than advancing rogue after that, I think it would benefit a lot from Telling Blow [6](PHBII) and Improved Critical(ray) [12].
Xeraph 05-23-06, 01:11 PM	I think 6th level is a more optimal exit level, gives you a lesser invocation. Fell flight or Fleet the Scene comes to mind. Both abilities are much better than 12 ekstra skill points and an extra dice of sneak attack IMO. But come one, DSM is really the way to go here.
kafit 05-23-06, 01:50 PM	I see your point, it would be better progression overall this way. Does a character of this type focus on using his blast or on melee with the daggers though? Actually, does it matter so much with this build? It seems like this could do quite a bit... hmmm. Yes, I think I see why this build is favorable.
Xeraph 05-23-06, 02:07 PM	This setup is strong in both aspects, but still best within 30ft with EB. Being a sneaky character you will have low hp, so do your part of combat 30ft away, preferably 30ft above. Get scrolls of Improved Invisibility so you can sneak attack with you EB every round. Quicken Spell Like Ability is nice later on, when enemy casters dispell you. Fell Flight or Fleet the Scene are to great choices for this feat, EB Quickened is also golden. Since you will be an able wand wielder, and you have TWF, you might wanna consider taking the feat Craft Wand, Double Wand Wielder and Reckless Wand Wielder. Insta gib with a wand. Wands of Scorching Ray is always nice with this tactic, and you will be able to sneak attack untop of the wand damage. By the way, how does Daggercast and Invocation of the Knife interact with EB? Can you use EB when attacking with a dagger? Is half of the damage dagger damage? How about Double Daggercast? Can you store a EB in each dagger? Daggerspell Flurry, lots of sneak attack and some EB aswell?
deathwishjoe 05-23-06, 08:06 PM	I have a better option. lets go with arcane trickster for a great rogue and warlock mix. human warlock 7/ rogue 1/ assassin 1/arcane trickster 10 1 precocious apprentice h that feat that gives you the SLA to cast mage hand from complete arcane 3 heighten spell 6 earth mastery (dont remember if this is what its called its in races of stone) 9 earth spell you can also get into arcane trickster with the illumian race. 1 precocious apprentice 3 improved sigil krau 6 that feat for the SLA to cast mage hand
Mommy was an Orc 05-23-06, 09:37 PM	You don't have access to any schools of magic at 1st level, so you can't take a spell with Precocious Apprentice...not to mention, most people wanting to play Rogues like to average better than 3 skill points per level. I have a better option. lets go with arcane trickster for a great rogue and warlock mix. human warlock 7/ rogue 1/ assassin 1/arcane trickster 10 1 precocious apprentice
Kelynmor 05-23-06, 09:39 PM	If you're really focused on being a rogue for more of the sneak attack abilities, but also like the flavor that warlock adds then consider this build... Rogue 1 / Warlock 5 / Invis Blade 5 / Daggerspell Mage 9 What you get is: ~ +7D6 sneak attack (w/ daggers) ~ 7D6 eldritch blast ~ 8 invocations ~ Int to AC ~ Feint as a free action ~ the ability to ensure at least half of your damage from eldritch bolt is applied via Invocation of the Knife (coupled with vitriolic blast to bypass SR) There really is great synergy between all of these classes. The only thing that's really questionable is if the DSM's abilities with spells would be able to be applied to you invocations. Since invocations are spell-like-abilities, I'd argue that they qualify, but check with your DM. There's just so many cool possibilities with this build! :D Unfortunately you don't get Imp. Invis with this build like Mommy's. But I tend to think the synergy with InvisBlade makes up for it since it allows you to sneak attack every round anyway while taking 10 with your bluff checks to feint. Hope this helps. ~Kel
kafit 05-23-06, 10:53 PM	Btw, which invocations of a warlocks are NOT 24 hours, besides the blast shapes and essences?