Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Calliban 01-27-05, 07:33 PM	I tryied something like that some months ago. And now I've learned some rules, and know something better about the game. It's a 33pt Build (not 32), Human, and I'm at LV 9. I also have the +2 Saint template (Book of Exalted Deeds). So, my effective lv is 11. My DM is actually DMing something between 3.0 and 3.5 (3.25, should I say). So, I can use freely 3.0 and 3.5 books. I Can use any of the WotC D&D books, but I can't go Gestalt or things too optional. For game's needs, I need to be a Paladin, and be Lawful Good all the way. I Need to get the feat "Celestial Mount" from BoeD, because I've an Asperi (MM2) as a mount, and it's a Celestial Gift. I've got 250.000gp for items, but the maximun enhancement bonus I can get is +3 (except for sword, which is +3 plus Holy). The game is higly combat based, and most of our adversaries are mages of some kind. I can't go barbarian, and I can't have Rage. ... Thoughts: - I've been thinking in Mounted Combat (since I've such powerful mount), but I don't wanna be a Mount-Dependent Paladin (and for the lack of feats and levels, that would be hard). - I was thinking about the Prestige Paladin, but I would need to go Mounted again. - Cleric is Fine, but Divine Sacrifice is a realy good Paladin spell. Since the most powerful clerical stuff needs more than 3 or 4 levels, I don't believe, at least for now, that it would be that nice :( - Two Fighter levels for this build seems like a need for every combat-based build. - Smite Evil is powerful in our game, because our DM allows you to use it in all your attacks with a full attack action. - I've a sophisticated bad luck with dice. Critical dependent stuff for me are like Gold for the Tarrasque. :( - Even that the High Saint's CHA give me extra Sorcerer spells, I dont believe that it would do any good :( - I'm thinking something Defensive. Improving the Saint's powers would be really good! And I'm the "players friendly" paladin, so, at least in our game, I cure more than the group's cleric. - Our group: a Standart Wizard, a frontline Cleric of Hextor (PHB), a Lizardfolk (MM) Frenzied Berseked (CW), a Champion of Gwynharwyf (BoeD) and a Archer Ranger. There is no need for barbarians, and just backup need for Cleric or Wizard. The ranger is something like a Uzi with arrows. - I wont be larger :( Even with magic. Some strange story... - In Complete Adventurer, there are feats that let you be Ranger/Paladin, Rogue/Paladin and Bard/Paladin without lost of Smite (and the other class stuff). You know things like that for other classes? :) - I'm a GreatSword adept. I would use a spear or something like that if I could use it more than "charge - go back - charge". - Maybe an Axiomatic Saint Bane (Evil Outsider) Greatsword would do it :) ... Builds: - I'm currently playing with a lv9 saint Paladin. I would like it more it there a Prestige classs that let me take a Mount earlier, to avoid wasting paladin levels. - My first thought was a Knight of Chalice (Complete Warrior), the Sword and Fist version (with d12 hit). The main problem is that neither of them has the Smite Evil ability. - Fist of Raziel was the second. Super Smites, almost full caster levels, good attack, etc. The only problem was that there are just 2 or 3 class abilities that you can't simulate with a magic item, and 3 levels of Cleric wont do any better than 9 of paladin. For lv 20 would be Great, and I'm still thinking about it. - Templar (Defensors of the Faith) and Pious Templar (Complete Divine) are good choices. The DotF version seems better to lower levels, but with less smites. I'm thinking about just 1 lv of Templar, to get Mettle and Weapon Specialization (at the cost of the useless endurance feat). - Seems like the Healer (Book of Miniatures) and the Favored Soul are better for my style of Paladin (defensive one) than just Cleric (for the basic spellcaster class), but it's up to you to decide that. - Chavalier is Powerful. I know the facts. But the lack of smite and total dependency of a mount aren't that good :( ... Asks: So, You've done your way, and now are here :) I need your help. Since there is a Lack of Paladin threads in this forum, and most of builds ask you to be some kind of Celestial or Dwarf, or ignore the class just take 2 lv of Paladin cuz the Divine Grace. I know paladin is unpowered near most of the things. I know I'm not suposed to be a frontline like the 2 barbarians in our group. I would protect the Wizard and the Cleric, but both of them do this job well. So, I need something that lemme shine. Not just like a human Band-Aid or the "Diplomacy Guy" :) I want to prove them that Paladins are cool :) SO. I really would apreciate any help here. Since Searching is disabled (at least for me), and since there is no active Paladins threads, would be nice for all you paladins post here your ideas :). (of course most of you will read this and pretend I'm not here :( dont do that, be a paladin-friend :) !) Thank you
Sang-Drax 01-27-05, 07:58 PM	If Prestige Paladin and Fist Of Raziel are allowed, just go this way. Try a Fighter 2/Cleric 3/Prestige Paladin 3/Fist Of Raziel 10/Saint 2. You'll have a great caster level (15th) for buffing up, BAB +17 (still getting 4 attacks/round at 20th level), 2 bonus feats that you may apply to mounted-based combat, thus, freeing your other feats. With the Cha boos from Saint, Divine Might is an even more interesting feat. I can't understand what you don't like in Fist Of Raziel. Dude, you get Smite Evil, almost full cleric progression and full BAB - and it's MUCH more powerful with your DM's house rule. What else do you want??? I would take Extra Smite as soon as I could. I wouldn't buy an axiomatic weapon - it won't have much use against devils (lawful evil). FInally, do not underestimate mounted combat. A charge with Divine Might and Smite Evil (even more with the augmented smite from FoR) is simply incredible with Spirited Charge. Plus, your mount flies, doesn't it? A flying mount means incredible mobility, thus, only n few situtations you won't be able to use your mount.
Calliban 01-27-05, 08:02 PM	Well, Sang-Drax, thank you :) I still dont get the power of FoR :( can't you explait it better? And I'm still not sure about mounted combat :( Don't know, I just dont know :(
PhoenixInferno 01-27-05, 08:07 PM	Human Saint Paladin 9/Fist of Raziel 9 With Smite Evils carrying into your full attack action, there's really no reason to soup-up your smiting power with Fist of Raziel. A permanent Magic Circle vs Evil is also nice.
Calliban 01-27-05, 08:10 PM	Thanks PhoenixInferno Oh, dont count the +2 of Saint in the build! :D The entire group have +1 to +3 templates :) Saints give me a double Magic Circle vs Evil as a free action :) Wont be of much help :) but thanks anyway
thieumlamule 01-28-05, 04:44 AM	hello all I have finished yesterday my characteer based on a saint paladin concept maybe it can help you firstly mine is only 10th (in counting the +2 saint) I found that the first trouble for a saint is the 3 exalted feats even if they are cools with a straight paladin build you have a lack of feats.... so my character began as human fighter 1 (3 feats : 2 exalted nymph's kiss (+2 charisma related check, +1 saves vs spells, +1 skill point per level), servant of heavens (fist of raziel prerequisite), and power attack (prerequisite again) then he became paladin 5 (all the cools paladin habilities are within these 5 levels) then i took a sword of righteouness level (+1 bonus exalted feat : hands of a healer (+2 charisma for lay of hands) then i become fist of raziel and saint the 2 bonus feats at 4th and 8th levels are extra smite and divine might. with a 30 points build (saint bonus and habilities bonus 4th and 8th levels) it gives : fo 18, dex 10, cons 14, int 12, wis 14, char 18 with 5 smite/day +4/+6 with 7 divine might possibilities per day and a good paladin spell progression with fist of raziel levels... maybe this build could help you
Calliban 01-28-05, 09:05 AM	I'm impressed, thieumlamule! Than you guy I only see one thing with your build: Low WIS. You know, Saint gives you + WISDOM as Insight Bonus to your Armor Class :) Would be possible do Drop some Int or Str? I Was thinking about the Intuitive Strike feat (BoeD), that let you use WIS (not str) for the melee attack rolls. So, it would be you Base Paladin Abs for Defense, Attack, Will Save and Spells! (I do believe It will reduce paladin's MAD someway). I like the way you got a SoR level. I Think I could do the same with a second Fighter level, to get an extra feat :) Anyway, thank you guy ;) your ideas will help me :) And you, guys? Keep posting :) I need some ideas here :)
Calliban 01-28-05, 03:54 PM	Ok... so... Well, I've done some research, and found that the Mettle (aka: evasion for Will and Fortitude) that Templar/Pious Templar gives you are not that useful. I actually didn't found any spell that it would help :( Anyway So, I'll take 2 Fighter Levels (better stats than the SoR). Fighter 1 -> 2 feats + 1 fighter feat. Fighter 2 -> 1 fighter feat Paladin 1 -> 1 level Feat Paladin 4 -> 1 level Feat (go 'till paladin 5) sword of Righteouness 1-> 1 exalted feat Fist of Raziel 1-> Level Feat So, at lv 9, I would have 2 fighter feats, 1 exalted bonus feat and 5 level feats... As Fighter, Power Attack and some other thing... As Exalted, Nymph's Kiss, Servant of Heavens and maybe Intuitive Strike. So, I have 3 feats free for use, plus a Fighter feat... I did it that wrong?
Timespike 01-28-05, 05:42 PM	The shadowbane inquisitor is pretty cool. I've written a lot of gameplay hints on both paladins and rogues, so let me use this post as a placeholder and see if I can compile the stuff for both, okay? Edit: Unfortunately, the search function is GONE for now, so maybe later I'll sit down and compile some stuff. For now, here's some quick tidbits. 1. Use a flail as your primary weapon. It's insanely versatile and doesn't cost you an exotic weapon proficiency. 2. If you're going to play a rogue/paladin, get a sling. Yes, a sling. Slings are REALLY easy to conceal. Wrap one around your arm, tie it around your neck as a "pendant", or wear it as an eyepatch. Ammo is similarly easy to conceal. Slip a few colorful, polished stones into your coin purse "for luck" this way, even if you go "unarmed" into some place, you've still got a weapon. 3. Undetectable alignment is your friend. 4. CARRY EXTRA HOLY SYMBOLS. I would reccomend at least 3, but I personally lean closer to 10, plus my primary one. And record EXACTLY where you've got them stowed. A shatter spell or sunder can ruin your day as an undead turner or divine spellcaster. Be prepared. Some favorite places my characters have stored them in the past include strapped to left thigh UNDER pants, tucked into a belt pouch worm at the small of the back, lashed to their leg inside their boots, worn as an ornamental belt buckle, and lashed to the shield side of one's shield arm. You want at least 2 you can get to quickly and at least one that will escape a fairly thorough search or weapons check. lashing one to the inside edge of an arm at about bicep height works well too, as people frisking you usually don't check inside edges of upper arms all that carefully, if at all. 5. Divine sacrifice, Holy Storm, and Zeal. Learn them, love them, use them at every opportunity (They can be found in complete divine and the planar handbook) Also: Templar is less useful for mettle than it is for faster spell acquisition, extra smiting, damage reduction, and bonus feats. A Paladin/templar loses progression on undead turning, remove disease, special mount, and lay on hands in return for much greater combat prowess.
Calliban 01-29-05, 10:06 AM	The Paladin-Rogue is a good idea, I've the Complete Adventurer book, and I think some feats are just great for the job :) Thank you, Timespike. Also, your adice is useful :) ... The Saint gives me DMG Reduction 5/Evil, and fast healing 4. I can also cast a double powered Magic Circle Against Evil and a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, as will, as a Free Action, with 20ft rad (for as long as I need it). That's why I'm not thinking about the FoR 1st level stuff, it just won't stack. With Templar 1, I could get Metlee, 2 good saves, good attack and weapon specialization, at the cost of 1 class lv and the feat endurance. (here am I again, saying I can use both 3.0 and 3.5) I actually think that Paladins should be the ultimate weapon against Evil :)
Timespike 01-29-05, 10:31 PM	Some other assorted coolness. If you're going to go shadowbane inquisitor, here's some other miscallaneous advice. 1. The sacred strike feat from the BoED is a no brainer for this character type. 2. Touch of golden ice (also from BoED) is a fantastic feat for any sort of sneaky good person. 3. You mightwand to go more sniperish with this kind of holy warrior, in which case, the ranged smite evil feat (ALSO from the BoED) might be a good idea. Sadly, it won't work with your smite from shadowbane inquisitor levels, though. :ahem: 4. Instead of starting your build with rogue levels, consider using two levels of spellthief instead. The ability to use detect magic a number of times per day equal to your CHA bonus is nothing to sneeze at, especially since you're going to be a CHA-based character. You do lose about 10 skill points and evasion going this route, however. 5. Take two levels of skullclan hunter as soon as you qualify for it, finish your shadowbane inquisitor levels, and then take the remaining levels in skullclan hunter. Being able to sneak attack undead is a very, VERY good thing. 6. Some equipment ideas: Gnome steam bow (Excellent sniper weapon) or Deathwand Crossbow (Decent sniper weapon, plus 2 wands always at hand. Get one of Cure light wounds enhanced with Ranged Spell (heal comrades AND damage undead!) and one of searing light, holy storm, or the like.) Variable Shield (Tower shield? check? Buckler? Check. Versatility is a good thing) Again, Flail in addition to the other advantages I mentioned before, it does bludgeoning damage, so it can be enchanted with the disruption special ability later! (You may want to describe it as having more of a blunt, mace-like head than a spiky one. Less evil-sounding.) Alchemist fire sling bullets. (Never underestimate the usefulness of the ability to start fires ata moment's notice) Alchemical weapon capsules and triple-capsule holder. (Ghostblight, quickfire/frost/shock, and quicksilver is a good loadout) A spool of endless rope (Arms & Equipment Guide, I think) A Belt of Many Pockets (Complete Arcane) Gloves of the Master Strategist (Ghostwalk) Gloves of storing PLUS a true strike ability. :plotting:
Calliban 02-03-05, 04:17 PM	I liked your list of stuff, Timespike :) Actually, I liked specially the Equipment ideas :) Well, the build I'm looking for is more like a Fighter-Paladin. Actually, I need to be either a Über-Damage-Dealer or a Über-Group-Defender. Since the Saint gives me the amazing Protective Aura (It's like a +4 in saves and CA for the feet near guys and immunity to 3rd level or less spells!), I was thinking about the Defensive stuff. With some magical Items and the right prestige classes, I could create something like a Human Magic Shield, I do believe, but just don't Know how to do that. Indeed, I would appreciate a simple way to get Magical Resistance at Level 9 with a Paladin-Like build :) The other way (and the way I think my group prefer) is the Damage Monster. Something like an incredible powerful Evil Smiter, with some abusive and non-critical related (and, if possible, stackable with magical stuff, or non uses-per-day dependent). I am Still thinking about the Fist of Raziel, specially because it's one of the most impressive smiter I know (but I still don't like him that much). I Know that Cleric Levels would be GREAT, but I don't know if would be better to get the Favored Soul class. I think the class is great for Paladins, 'cause Reduces MAD (spells are CHA based!)... except for the fact that you are a spontaneous caster (and so, have a small spell access). And the 3 good saves would be helpful :) --- I heard some of you telling me that Favored Soul is Unpowered... just want to know why, tell me please! ... Anyway! About Mounter combat... you guys keep saying that Mounted is the way to smite :) SO, there is any Magic Item that gives me some Mounted Feats, huh? :)
PhoenixInferno 02-03-05, 04:36 PM	If you're looking for a good defender, you might want to look at the Defender of Sealtiel - nothin says lovin' like d12 HD.
Calliban 02-10-05, 04:03 PM	Need some little help. Can someone post me a Prestige Paladin + Fist of Raziel build, with 3 Exalted Feats (saint template)? Actually, What I need is to Maximize the Saint's powers, I just don't know where to start! A Paladin Saint coulld never be that unpowered :(
Calliban 02-11-05, 11:45 AM	Well, I think now the way is go by the Total Defense's ways. It's possible anyhow to create a Mounted Complete Defensive guy, based on at least 5 levels of Paladin? I'm wearing a SoulFire armor (BoED) to immunize myself against Death and Drain-like spells, and possibly a Starmantle Cloak (BoED) with a Ring of Evasion (immunity against weapons). Also, I'm thinking about a Retributive Amulet, so Big Monsters with natural attacks will also suffer. My +6 Great Sword (Holy + Wrathful Healing + Magebane: +2d6 against evil stuff, +2/+2d6 against arcane spell casters or spell-likes, regenerates me half the damage I inflict) is some kind of useful, so, I don't believe I need to change here. I'm thinking about a Animated Tower Shield :), Since I'm a Saint, I'm practically Immune to 3rd level or lower spells, and with a +6 CHA, my saves are quite good (even better with Nymph's Kiss), so, I only need a Last kind of item or class feature to be some kind of Defensive guy: Magical Resistance (or some other way to be more resistant against 4th level non-death/drain spells)... ... This char just need to be a Lawful Good maniac, and at least looks like a Paladin :) (no need for the class anymore). I'm Level 10, (12 actually, because +2 from saint), so, any kind of optimization here will be greatly apreciated... Oh! In our game, there are some house-rules that may be somewhat strange, just think about: - Attacks effects (like Smite) affects all attacks you've, if you can attack more than once in a round. - The final attack bonus is used to determine how many attacks you've per round (with a limit of 4 standard ones), and not the base attack bonus (so, with a +10bab + 3 STR, I've 3 attacks at +13/+8/+3). Thanks for your help