Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aza'lan 01-08-04, 03:50 PM	A Shadow Mage build: Div5/Sha5/Shadow Crafter10 Sun Elf (FRCS): Str:8 Dex:16 Con:14 Int:20 Wis:14 Cha:10 Diviner (Opposite: Evocation) 1. Wiz1: Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus (Illusion) 2. Wiz2: 3. Wiz3: Shadow Weave Magic 4. Wiz4: 5. Wiz5: [EDIT}: Extend Spell 6. Wiz5/Sha1: Insidious Magic, Pernicious Magic, Tenacious Magic, Greater Spell Focus (Illusion) 7. Wiz5/Sha2: 8. Wiz5/Sha3: 9. Wiz5/Sha4: CWI 10.Wiz5/Sha5: 11.Wiz5/Sha5/ShadowCrafter1: 12.Wiz5/Sha5/SCrft2: Quicken Spell 13.Wiz5/Sha5/Scrft3: 14.Wiz5/Sha5/Scrft4: 15.Wiz5/Sha5/Scrft5: Spell Penetration 16.wiz5/Sha5/Scrft6: 17.Wiz5/Sha5/Scrft7: 18.Wiz5/Sha5/Scrft8: Craft Staff 19.Wiz5/Sha5/Scrft9: 20.Wiz5/Sha5/Scrft10: This is my first post here and I'm quite excited to see what the experts think. I realize it seems ridiculous to specialize in Divination and focus your build on Illusion magic, but I believe, that anyone focusing on Illusion spells would look quite the fool if they were tricked by another illusionist. And since Divination is the only cheap specialization it seemed like an excellent fit. If possible, I'm looking for criticism involving the build: ability scores, feats, different race, etc. I see this character as a man who spends his time ferreting out would-be enemies, while cloaking himself and his plans in illusions. Thank you in advance Azzi
Snow Savant 01-08-04, 04:10 PM	Aza'lan, This is pretty much a flawlessly concepted and structured "Illusionist" build. I use quotes, because you are a Diviner in regards to optimizing mechanics, but an Illusionist in power-projection. Nice work! Like you, I dig Illusion spells (especially figments and shadow spells) and find Evocations unneccessary. You've got all the Focus/Penetration feats for Illusions, Spell Power from S.A., CWI, Empower, & Quicken. Those are all top-tier and flexible Wizard feats. And you took Quicken at 12th level - the perfect level of acquisition. Have fun! XO, Snow :cloud9:
Aza'lan 01-09-04, 09:17 AM	Thanks Snow. I've been a big fan of illusionist for quite awhile (was bumbed by the 3.5 specialization rules). At first I was not completely sold on the shadow crafter because his abilities focus on a very narrow array of spells. I know it is some what of a taboo in this forum but I'll mention it anyway (flames be damned). If you are interested in Mongoose products, the Encyclopedia Arcane: Illusionism divides illusion into orthodox and unorthodox. The unorthodox division has a number of very intriguing feats dealing with shadow spells. If used in conjunction with the shadow crafter, the feat augment shadows makes all shadow descriptor spells 20% more real. Used with one of my favorite spells shades, you create 100% "real" conjurations albeit at epic level. But for many of the lower shadow spells, you can approach nearly 100%. I equate augment shadows with the augment summoning feat in the PHB. After all if your conjured monsters are more powerful, why can't your illusions? Thanks again Azzi
Scandal 01-12-04, 02:06 PM	Where is shadow Crafter found?? -Scan
Aza'lan 01-12-04, 02:33 PM	Scandal It's in the FR supplement the Underdark.
Gro 01-14-04, 04:42 AM	When making a illusion mage I have several times thought about adding (or starting with) a level of cleric with the domains illusion and gnome, - each giving +2 to caster level when casting illusion spells (afaikr). The trade will upper your caster level which will be handy e.g when people are trying to disspell your illusions but on the other hand you will delay your effective spellcasting level by one. And I'm not sure it's worth it even tho to my experience caster level is very important to illusionists. What do you guys think?
Kreger 01-14-04, 09:53 AM	The wizard in my group would love this build. (He's always going on and on about illusion and divination.:looloo:, jk) This makes me want to take telflammar shadow lord and max out my UMD. Nifty.
Aza'lan 01-14-04, 11:38 AM	Originally posted by Gro When making a illusion mage I have several times thought about adding (or starting with) a level of cleric with the domains illusion and gnome, - each giving +2 to caster level when casting illusion spells (afaikr). Thats a really interesting idea, that I had not thought about. The delayed spell progression is typically a no-no. Where is the illusion domain-- it sounds familiar but I can't quite place it. Originally posted by Kreger The wizard in my group would love this build. (He's always going on and on about illusion and divination., jk) He sounds like a genius Kreger. You better watch out dominate person requires a will save and I suspect that your characters don't typically have good ones-- my crystal ball told me so. Thanks Azzi
Gro 01-14-04, 11:46 AM	Originally posted by Aza'lan Originally posted by Gro Thats a really interesting idea, that I had not thought about. The delayed spell progression is typically a no-no. Where is the illusion domain-- it sounds familiar but I can't quite place it. The illusion and gnome domain are both in the Forgotten Realms - Campaign Setting book... (again afaikr)
Aza'lan 01-14-04, 12:28 PM	My knee-jerk reaction to this idea is that it is not worth it. I have not actually tried an illusionist with clerical levels. Of major importance when determining domains for a cleric is there spell list. The illusion domain's spells are almost all wizard/sor spells. Since you have the ability to learn these spells anyway, it may not be worth it. The gnome domain spell list overlaps several spells with the illusion domain... and some spells from the gnome domain don't exactly screem illusionist (e.g. Otto's Irresistible dance) Bonus to caster level is alright in my opinion-- it extends duration and range, but on the whole I think I would rather have a normal spell progression to get access to those cool illusion spells sooner. Azzi
Foolosophy 02-27-04, 07:39 AM	yeah but since boosting DC's is going to be a lot harder in 3.5 the extra +3 to illusion DC's is going to be handy.
Aza'lan 02-27-04, 09:08 AM	How are you increasing the DC +3. The two domains give you a bonus to the caster level-- not to the DC. This works similiar to the archmage/red wizard spell power ability which increases range, duration, and level dependent components to spells-- but not the DC saves. Azzi
Tytalus 02-29-04, 09:20 PM	Originally posted by Aza'lan Div5/Sha5/Shadow Crafter10 Elsewhere I found Div5/Sha10/Shadow Crafter5. It seems that the former is preferable, but I'm not sure. On a slightly different note, how well would a Sorcerer base do in such a build?
Aza'lan 03-01-04, 01:01 PM	Tytalus, In 3.0 I would have definitly gone all 10 levels of shadow adept-- but because of corrolated spell power nerfs, it isn't necessary to go all 10 levels in my opinion. Although figments are the most popular illusions on this board, I prefer shadows (especially the spell shades) and because they become "more real" with the shadow crafter, I believe its a stronger build for what I want. On a slightly different note, how well would a Sorcerer base do in such a build? Well, I don't seem to recall many "shadow" spells appearing on the Ultimate Sorcerer Spell lists. I believe the spell selection necessary to make the shadow crafter work might be too narrow for a Sorcerer, who already has a very limited selection of spells. In other words, I think you would have to give up too many "useful" spells to really benefit from what the shadowcrafter has to offer. Put thats just my opinion. Azzi
adiaven 03-01-04, 01:26 PM	Very similiar to a wizard I am playing StrongHeart Halfling (FRCS): picked this one over sun elf for bonuses to hide, move silently, AC and ToHit and of course the bonus feat at level 1. I also hate having -2 con with d4 hitpoints. Str:7 Dex:14 Con:16 Int:17 Wis:8 (-2 from shadow magic feat for now) Cha:10 Diviner (Opposite: Evocation) 1. Wiz1: Scribe Scroll, Spell Casting Prodigy, Shadow Weave Magic 2. Wiz2: 3. Wiz3: Spell Focus (Illusion) 4. Wiz4: 5. Wiz5: Silent Spell 6. Wiz5/Sha1: Insidious Magic, Pernicious Magic, Tenacious Magic, Spell Focus (Enchantment) 7. Wiz5/Sha2: 8. Wiz5/Sha3: 9. Wiz5/Sha4: Spell Penetration 10.Wiz5/Sha5: 11.Wiz5/Sha6: 12.Wiz5/Sha7: Greater Spell Penetration 13.Wiz5/Sha8: 14.Wiz5/Sha9: 15.Wiz5/Sha10: Skill Focus (SpellCraft) 16.wiz5/Sha10/ArchMage 1: 17.Wiz5/Sha10/ArcM2: 18.Wiz5/Sha10/ArcM3: (undecided feat) 19.Wiz5/Sha10/ArcM4: 20.Wiz5/Sha10/ArcM5:
RobertPaulson 03-01-04, 03:54 PM	Why would you possibly play a non-gnome if you want to maximize your abilities? Their illusions get a +1 to diff which is great. Sure, some races may give you +2 intelligence, which will give ALL your spells a higher difficulty, but the tradeoff is 2 fewer hps per level since the gnomes get a higher constitution. If you can, try to con your DM into letting you be a Forest gnome. Depending on the source material they can have no level adjustment AND technically can qualify as size dimunitive(females only I think). Extra AC = yummy.
jensun 03-01-04, 05:25 PM	Aza'lan, I would consider bumping CWI up to 5th level if you think you will have an opportunity to use it. The ability to, in effect, choose your equipment cannot be understated. I am also curious which spells you are intending to Empower. About the only ones I even bother looking at nowadays are Scorching Ray and Enervation, both of which could probably be bettered with a level 4 or 6 spell. I would probably drop Empower, move CWI to 5th, take spell penetration at 9th (when you start meeting more critters with SR) and take Greater Spell Penetration at 15th. Higher level monsters tend to have high SR and I find spell penetration extremely handy. Improved initiative is a different option which becomes very strong at higher levels where going first is even more crucial. Alternatively, you could take Craft Arms and Armour to help out the rest of your party and make yourself some cash. This, and CWI, is of course dependant on your campaign set up and availability of magic for sale. Also of course you can wear a mithril twilight chain shirt and carry a mithril buckler to maximise your AC with 0 ASF.
Catspaw 03-01-04, 06:37 PM	I currently have a build very similar to this as well. Actually I went with the Illusionist specialization but your reasons for making Diviner the specialist school are beginning to sound pretty good to me. Anyway, my build isn't totally optimized (for example I wanted a Pseudodragon familiar), but it gets the job done: Wizard 5/Shadow Adept 10/Shadowcrafter 5 Deep Imaskari (Underdark) Starting Stats Str: 10 Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 18 Wis: 10 Cha: 12 Illusionist (Opposite: Enchantment, Evocation) 1. Wiz1: Scribe Scroll, Spellcasting Prodigy 2. Wiz2: 3. Wiz3: Shadow Weave Magic 4. Wiz4: 5. Wiz5: CWI 6. Wiz5/Sha1: Insidious Magic, Pernicious Magic, Tenacious Magic, Spell Focus (Illusion) 7. Wiz5/Sha2: 8. Wiz5/Sha3: 9. Wiz5/Sha4: Improved Familiar (Pseudodragon) 10.Wiz5/Sha5: Quicken Spell 11.Wiz5/Sha6 12.Wiz5/Sha7: Spell Penetration 13.Wiz5/Sha8: 14.Wiz5/Sha9: 15.Wiz5/Sha10: Greater Spell Focus (Illusion) 16.wiz5/Sha10/Scrft1: 17.Wiz5/Sha10/Scrft2: 18.Wiz5/Sha10/Scrft3: Greater Spell Penetration 19.Wiz5/Sha5/Scrft4: 20.Wiz5/Sha5/Scrft5: The Spell Penetrations are for dealing with pesky Drow and other denizens of the Underdark, and Pseudodragon is basically for RP purposes. I thought about other things to swap in instead of Spellcasting Prodigy, but none really jump out as being much better. Finally, I didn't go with 10 levels of Shadowcrafter because I felt like the bonuses accrued by having more SA levels seemed to be better than what was basically 10% more on the shadow spells.
Aza'lan 03-02-04, 08:59 AM	Jensun, I agree that CWI should be taken at level 5. One of the requirements of Shadow adept is a metamagic feat-- so Catspaw, you don't qualify for Shadow adept at 6th level. This is why I didn't take it there either. We are playing in Realms so magic items are usually pretty easy to find. Also the Empower spell feat is a typo which i will fix, It should be extend spell--- Thanks for pointing that out. Extend spell is the best low level meta magic feat IMO, so it fits the bill nicely for the Sha. Catspaw: Drop Spell Casting Prodigy and put in a metamagic feat so you qualify for Sha at 6th level. Finally, I didn't go with 10 levels of Shadowcrafter because I felt like the bonuses accrued by having more SA levels seemed to be better than what was basically 10% more on the shadow spells Fair enough, I just love shadow magic and because Spell Power is not as good as it once was, I didn't feel 10 levels of Sha was for me. Thanks for the comments guys Azzi
LiXinjian 03-09-04, 08:57 PM	That gnomish clerical granted power thing - the +2 to caster level for illusion spells - doesn't work. IIRC, the benefits for the granted power work only for the class that grants you said powers (ie, cleric), so you'd have a gnome illusionist who could cast divine illusion spells at +2 caster level. Definitely not a good idea. Are there even *any* divine illusion spells??
horndgod 03-09-04, 10:02 PM	"You cast all illusion spells at +1 caster level," is what it says for both domains, leading me to believe that the synergy does exist.
LiXinjian 03-09-04, 10:11 PM	From the main 3.5 FAQ: "In addition, most level-based variables for a class feature depend on your class level, as does any level-based variable for a spell you cast as a member of that class. Powers from clerical domains are class features, and any level-based variables they have depend on your level in the class that gives you access to the domain." It really looks like the bonuses would only apply to the class that grants the power, don't you think?
horndgod 03-09-04, 10:34 PM	True, but the granted powers of the Illusion and Gnome domains are not level-based variables, they grant a flat +1 caster level no matter how many levels you have in Cleric. However, to take one level of Cleric for the Gnome and Illusion domains screws the character in a different way. Unless you can play a gnome with a favored class of cleric or wizard, or a non-gnome race that can take the Gnome domain, you'll be hit with an xp penalty.
LiXinjian 03-14-04, 04:53 PM	Originally posted by adiaven Str:7 Dex:14 Con:16 Int:17 Wis:8 (-2 from shadow magic feat for now) Cha:10 Don't look now, but the Shadow Weave Magic feat has a Wis13+ requirement, meaning you never could have picked it with Wis10. The prerequisite line is somewhat misleading (prerequisite: Wis 13+ or patron deity Shar), but the explanation below is quite clear, stating that you don't loose the feat if the wisdom loss from acquiring the feat brings you under 13. They also state that this is an exception to the rule governing feats. The only way I can see you could have acquired the feat nonetheless is that Shar was already your patron deity, in which case I don't think you should have suffered any wisdom loss at all. Or perhaps I'm just missing something.
Bopple 03-14-04, 07:06 PM	The clarification is for those who are not followers of Shar, imo. Shadow Weave Magic is a certain secret magic control, so it requires some wisdom to understand or discover it by oneself. But if he is a follower of Shar, he will be given the information needed for it, freely. That seems to be the difference, imo. Just my 2 cents. PS) In addition, most level-based variables for a class feature depend on your class level, as does any level-based variable for a spell you cast as a member of that class. Powers from clerical domains are class features, and any level-based variables they have depend on your level in the class that gives you access to the domain. What is this to do with applying domain power to arcane spells? Hmm..I don't get it. Did I miss anything?
LiXinjian 03-15-04, 05:29 AM	Originally posted by Bopple What is this to do with applying domain power to arcane spells? Hmm..I don't get it. Did I miss anything? "Powers from clerical domains are class features". Seems to me this means that they affect only the class that grants said domain. Otherwise, it's like saying: "weapon specialization is a fighter-only feat"; meaning it's simply stating the obvious. It's the spirit of the ruling that I think limits it's effect to clerical spells. But then again, are there any clerical illusions?? Blindness/Deafness is the only one I can think of... Of course, nobody said I was right about this. It just seems logical (although logical isn't always true in D&D) As for the Shadow Weave feat, maybe they'll clarify the issue with the Player's Guide to Fearūn.
Bopple 03-15-04, 06:25 AM	As for Shadow Weave Magic, I thought you were saying it was wis13+ and patron deity Shar. Bah, silly I am. Just disregard what I said. And for class feature, I don't think it would affect its own class ability only. It sounds like a feature that is exclusively available to that class only. Anyway, as you have said, there are too few clerical illusion spells. It'd be pointless, if that applies to clerical illusions only.