Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sparrowhawk Charm 02-11-06, 09:07 PM	I recently have had occasion to create a new character. I used the shadow-walker template and want to make a fighter-rogue type character who uses (almost exclusively) daggers. The goal is to get the Telflammar shadowlord shadow pounce ability. I'd also like to incorporate shadowdancer for a couple levels (for the evasion/uncanny dodge). Also, the DM has ruled that Invisible Blade Prereqs are Weapon Focus, Dodge, and Weapon Finesse (instead of point blank shot and far shot since the latter two don't really apply to kukri or punching daggers). The DM also allows fractional BAB, but not saves. Consequently the will saves suck. The character doesn't wear armor. Here's my idea so far. 1. Ninja CA (wisdom to AC) Dodge, Mobility 2. Swashbuckler Weapon Finesse- given by class 3. Swashbuckler Weapon Focus-Dagger 4. Swashbuckler (Intelligence to damage) 5. Fighter Blindfighting 6. Invisible Blade CW (Intelligence to AC), Spring Attack 7. Fighter Combat Reflexes 8. Fighter 9. Fighter Weapon Specialization-Dagger, Improved TWF 10. Shadowdancer 11. Shadowdancer (Uncannydodge, evasion) 12. T. Shadowlord 13. T. Shadowlord 14. T. Shadowlord 15. T. Shadowlord 16. ? 17. ? 18. ? 19. ? 20. ? What do you think? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. The character's name is Micah. He's neutral and alignment restrictions on classes are ignored (when accompanied by a back story and decent RP). Race restrictions, however, are strictly adhered to. His best scores are in Dex and Int. I was looking at assassin as a possibility.
PhoenixInferno 02-11-06, 09:32 PM	Forget about Weapon Specialization. Get Elusive Target (Complete Warrior). Where's your normal TWF? You can't take ITWF before that. I'd also skip Spring Attack - you can't TWF and Spring Attack at the same time. Look for a way to get Pounce - Snow Tiger Berserker (Unapproachable East) can help.
Sparrowhawk Charm 02-11-06, 09:46 PM	oops. You're right. I switched some things around. Spring attack is required for t.shadowlord. Where did you find the snow-tiger beserker stats? I have the book, but couldn't quickly locate the entry. The idea is to put some damage onto dagger attacks. 1d4 doesn't go far. the campaign has been billed as light on magic. Here's the adjustment without specialization 1. Ninja CA (wisdom to AC) Dodge, TWF 2. Swashbuckler Weapon Finesse- given by class 3. Swashbuckler Weapon Focus-Dagger 4. Swashbuckler (Intelligence to damage) 5. Fighter Mobility 6. Invisible Blade CW (Intelligence to AC), Spring Attack 7. Fighter Combat Reflexes 8. Fighter 9. Fighter Blindfighting, Improved TWF 10. Shadowdancer 11. Shadowdancer (Uncannydodge, evasion) 12. T. Shadowlord 13. T. Shadowlord 14. T. Shadowlord 15. T. Shadowlord 16. ? 17. ? 18. ? 19. ? 20. ?
Slyver 02-11-06, 10:26 PM	Well, i'm not sure how your qualifying for TS as you have no dimension door ability. Also invisible blade only gives you AC to int up to your class level. This is my assassin character I am currently playing. He is rather awesome. Race: Human Template: Shadow-walker (Buy it off) Monk is cobra strike monk variant, Weapon school escrima (just so i can flurry with an assassins dagger, not important) 1 Rogue Blind fight, craven, Flaw (Shaky), Faerie mysteries initiate 2 Monk dodge 3 Monk mobilty, carmendine monk 4 Swashbuckler weapon finesse 5 Swashbuckler 6 Swashbuckler Spring attack, insightful strike 7 Assassin 8 Teflemmar Shadowlord 9 Teflemmar Shadowlord ability focus (death attack) 10 Teflemmar Shadowlord 11 Teflemmar Shadowlord 12 Teflemmar Shadowlord Sun school monk 13 Teflemmar Shadowlord 14 Assassin 15 Assassin Stunning fist 16 Assassin 17 Assassin 18 Assassin quicken SLA (dimension door or shadow jump) 19 Assassin 20 Assassin The build is focused entirely on Int. Int replaces con for hps, int to AC, damage, save DC's for stunning fist, death attack, assassin spells, TS spells, bonus spells for two classes, and skill points, not to mention quite a few relavant skills. 6 attacks on a shadow pounce with haste or speed weapon (4 at highest BAB -2). 5d6 +20 sneak attack damage, blah blah. This is really more of an assassin build, which may not be what you are looking for at all. At the vey least you should take monk instead of ninja to take carmandine monk or kung fu genius and get your int to both AC and damage for a bit more synergy and less MAD. I would definitely drop the last two levels of fighter also, you really don't need weapon specialization (or focus for that matter). They are very sub-optimal feats. Hmm, maybe for a more pure fighter build we could do something like this; Rogue 1/Monk 2/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Invisible blade 1/TS 4/Invisible blade 4/Dervish 3 Race: Human Monk, cobra strike, escrima weapon school Template: Shadow-walker Feats 1 Blind fight, craven, Flaw (Shaky), Faerie mysteries initiate, Flaw (murky eyed), Combat expertise 2 dodge 3 mobility, carmendine monk 4 Weapon finesse 6 Weapon focus dagger 7 Spring attack 8 Elusive target 9 Sun school monk 12 Two weapon fighting 15 Improved two weapon fighting 18 Greater two weaponp fighting Int to AC twice (max at +5 from invis blade) Int to damage 4d6+20 sneak attack Attacks at 20 (without flurry, with daggers of speed, without any modifiers, with shadow pounce) 15/15/15/15/15/10/10/5/5/0 With flurry add one at highest BAB subtract 2 from all (may not be worth it). Prior to getting improved two weapon fighting use flurry (full str to all attacks). Just some thoughts. you may want to take out invisible blade and add the levels to dervish. I am not sure which is better. They are both great classes and invis blade seems to fit more with the theme. Slyver
neilthrun 02-12-06, 12:45 AM	I'd take a second level of ninja, a level of spellthief, a couple levels of assasin, and a few less levels in fighter, More sneak attack is better than a +4 to damage. Take a look at Ghost Face Killer, full BAB and sudden strike. Good times.
Sparrowhawk Charm 02-12-06, 09:45 AM	Well, i'm not sure how your qualifying for TS as you have no dimension door ability. Also invisible blade only gives you AC to int up to your class level. Rogue 1/Monk 2/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Invisible blade 1/TS 4/Invisible blade 4/Dervish 3 Race: Human Monk, cobra strike, escrima weapon school Template: Shadow-walker Feats 1 Blind fight, craven, Flaw (Shaky), Faerie mysteries initiate, Flaw (murky eyed), Combat expertise 2 dodge 3 mobility, carmendine monk 4 Weapon finesse 6 Weapon focus dagger 7 Spring attack 8 Elusive target 9 Sun school monk 12 Two weapon fighting 15 Improved two weapon fighting 18 Greater two weaponp fighting Int to AC twice (max at +5 from invis blade) Int to damage 4d6+20 sneak attack Attacks at 20 (without flurry, with daggers of speed, without any modifiers, with shadow pounce) 15/15/15/15/15/10/10/5/5/0 With flurry add one at highest BAB subtract 2 from all (may not be worth it). Prior to getting improved two weapon fighting use flurry (full str to all attacks). Just some thoughts. you may want to take out invisible blade and add the levels to dervish. I am not sure which is better. They are both great classes and invis blade seems to fit more with the theme. Slyver I thought I mentioned that I have the shadowwalker template. Bought and paid off. I agree with the fighter assessament. A couple of questions about the feats. What are: Faerie mysteries initiate Carmendine monk Sun school monk Murky eyed Kung Fu Genius craven Weapon school escrima? I have many books, so even the book source would help. I have access to even more resources, though 3.0 features need to be approved by dm. I find the monk idea interesting and it removes the shadowdancer necessity. I was shooting for economy of levels (shadowdancer gets Udodge &evasion at 2nd) as opposed to the 4 levels it otherwise takes to achieve those abilities. Invis blade gives int to AC. I too was looking to make Int count for this character. BTW your assassin character looks really cool. Did you use feat slots to boost abilities? Is there a rules reference in any of the books that I could look at? Thanks
Slyver 02-12-06, 01:09 PM	I thought I mentioned that I have the shadowwalker template. Bought and paid off. You know, I actually read your post and checked to make sure before my reply and I STILL didn't see it so it's a little embarassing. :) In my defense I was pretty damn tired when I posted. My appologies. Faerie mysteries initiate - Dragon magazine 319 Carmendine monk - Champions of Valor Sun school monk - (actually sun school) Complete Warrior Murky eyed - Flaw from Unearthed Arcana* Kung Fu Genius - Dragon 319** craven - Champions of ruin Weapon school escrima - Dragon 330*** *Murky eyed statistically negates the concealment reroll advantage of the blind-fight feat (although the other benefits still remian). It is a bit of a bummer, but worth the extra feat if you need it and there are plenty of ways to negate concealment. I only needed it for this build to get combat reflexes, a requirement for Dervish. Dervish is very nice, and works with daggers, the chosen weapon, and all the other stringent feats were already required by the other PRCs, AND Combat expertise is a pretty darn good feat by itself, but it is not necessary for the build or the synergy. I just couldn't think of anything better and it offers a very nice tactical option if you need it. **Kung fu genius is trumped by the very similar but better and more "official" carmendine monk. ***The alternate weapon schools take away the normal monk weapons and add different ones. In the case of escrima you can now flurry with a club, shortsword, dagger and staff but lose all other monk flurry weapons. There are other schools also. A very nice and well balanced option, the type of thing a CO'er loves. The monk is the cobra strike variant and crucial to the build. It gives you 2 bonus feats you need in two levels, full intelligence to AC, a viable combatant if you find yourself unarmed, +3 to all saves, flurry ability with daggers to tide you over until ITWF, and with carmendine monk, +10 to movement speed. Best 2 levels in the build. BTW your assassin character looks really cool. Did you use feat slots to boost abilities? Is there a rules reference in any of the books that I could look at? Thanks I'm not entirely sure I understand this question. What abilities? I have one feat that boosts abilities, ability focus (death attack). If you mean the int to stunning fist DC you get that benefit from either carmandine monk or kung fu genius. Slyver
Sparrowhawk Charm 02-12-06, 05:28 PM	Just wondering about faerie mysteries init and craven. I was also wondering what you thought about a level of barbarian with the snow tiger lodge (from UE). Would it be worth it to scrap the shadowdancer for levels of monk and a level of barbarian? I was referring in my last post to the death strike ability boost. Thanks for the help
fnord 02-12-06, 06:05 PM	*Murky eyed statistically negates the concealment reroll advantage of the blind-fight feat (although the other benefits still remian). It is a bit of a bummer, but worth the extra feat if you need it and there are plenty of ways to negate concealment. Why not take a different flaw, like Poor Reflexes?
Slyver 02-12-06, 06:14 PM	You absolutely want to dump the shadowdancer levels and 2 levels of fighter. HiPS is almost useless for a character that can dimension door at will and shadow pounce. Uncanny dodge is also very mediocre since you have elusive target which is 1000 times better. Two more levels of anything would be better. Monk you want, most certainly, and drop ninja, it's crap in comparison. Total crap. (if you could get carmandine monk to work with ninja it becomes a little less crappy). Regardless, as I stated above, the 2 monk levels are better than any other two levels in a build like this except the 4 TS levels. As for Barb, well, first off it requires an alignment change. Not a big deal, but I never liked the concept of a monk/barb. (That's just me though.) As for the snow tiger beserker, it is an awesome feat and fantatastic with neraph's charge, but you already do that with the shadow pounce in a much better way. On a side note, we treat DD attacks as a loss of dex to AC. This is not outside of the rules, as there is nothing in the rules about it one way or the other, except that it is impossible to do, i.e. After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn. Shadow pounce breaks this rule and the RAW no longer function properly. We have therefore ruled that it works similar to blinking, the travelling back and forth between the etheral and PM that gives an effective concealment bonus and thus a loss of dex to AC to the target of the attack. As for Faerie mysteries initiate, not sure what you are asking. It allows you to use your int mod instead of your con mod to determine bonus hps. Craven gives you a -2 to fear saves and a +1 to sneak attack damage/HD. Which means at level 20 you have gained an effective +6d6 to your sneak attack (+20 damage). Slyver
PhaedrusXY 02-12-06, 06:38 PM	On a side note, we treat DD attacks as a loss of dex to AC. This is not outside of the rules, as there is nothing in the rules about it one way or the other, except that it is impossible to do, i.e. Shadow pounce breaks this rule and the RAW no longer function properly. We have therefore ruled that it works similar to blinking, the travelling back and forth between the etheral and PM that gives an effective concealment bonus and thus a loss of dex to AC to the target of the attack.I think treating it as Invisibility would be more sensible. With both, you suddenly appear and catch them off guard, and hence get to deny them their Dex to AC for one attack. But since you are then in plain view, they get their Dex back vs. all your other attacks for the round. With Blinking, you are continuously appearing and dissappearing, multiple times per round. Hence they continuously lose their Dex to AC for the entire round. Also, I don't think HiPS is entirely useless here. It is a great ability in general, and I don't see any of the characters here that can Dimension Door At Will. At most, they can all only DD a few times per day. If you were talking about a Warlock/Tefl.S. I might agree. It might not be worth the cost of two levels of Shadow Dancer at the expense of losing two levels of something else, however. You can always buy yourself some eggshell smoke grenades from Oriental Adventures if you need to "Hide in Plain Sight". :D Uncanny Dodge is still a nice ability for a character that has Elusive Target. There is nothing in either of them preventing the other from working that I see.
Slyver 02-13-06, 12:20 AM	Also, I don't think HiPS is entirely useless here. It is a great ability in general, and I don't see any of the characters here that can Dimension Door At Will. At most, they can all only DD a few times per day. If you were talking about a Warlock/Tefl.S. I might agree. It might not be worth the cost of two levels of Shadow Dancer at the expense of losing two levels of something else, however. You can always buy yourself some eggshell smoke grenades from Oriental Adventures if you need to "Hide in Plain Sight". :D Uncanny Dodge is still a nice ability for a character that has Elusive Target. There is nothing in either of them preventing the other from working that I see. The TS can not only DD 3/day but shadowjump up to 2/level/day. He is only taking 4 levels of it with his current build so that is only 11/day. My assassin build that I posted can do it over 20/day. That is close enough to at will for me. And yes, hide in plain site is a great ability. But for someone that can DD that many times a day it becomes MUCH less useful, especially when doing something like taking another level of TS gives you another 4 times of DD/day (2 from level, 2 from bonus spells from high int.) and the fantastic shadow discorporation. Uncanny dodge is also useful, but with ellusive target MUCH less useful than without. Levels in a build like this are at a premium. Every one counts for so much. Wasting one, and especially two for good abilities that in this build are mediocre is a very poor idea. Slyver
Sparrowhawk Charm 02-13-06, 01:57 PM	Here's the latest draft 1. Rogue TWF, Blindfighting, Craven, Shaky, Murky-eyed 2. Swashbuckler1 Finesse (bonus), Weapon Focus (1st level slot) 3. Swashbuckler2 Carmendine Monk 4. CobraStrike Monk1 Dodge (bonus), weapon escrima 5. CobraStrike Monk2 Mobility (bonus), evasion 6. Invisible Blade1 Spring Attack 7. Swashbuckler3 Int. to Damage 8. T. Shadowlord1 9. T. Shadowlord2 Improved TWF 10 T. Shadowlord3 11.T. Shadowlord4 Shadow Pounce 12.Invisible Blade2 Arterial Strike (bonus), *Open Feat* 13.Fighter1 Elusive Target 14.Fighter2 Greater TWF 15.Invisible Blade3 Combat Reflexes 16.Invisible Blade4 17.Invisible Blade5 18.Dervish1 *Open Feat* 19.Dervish2 20.?? *Open Feat* As you can see there are a few feats left to select (12, 18, 20). Obviously, the 12th level feat is the most important, since the likelihood of us reaching 18th level (much less 20th ) is...unprecedented. I am inclined to not go with Dervish for a 3rd level because the benefit would be Spring Attack, which I already have. Shadowdance came out, as did a few levels of fighter. barbarian never made an appearance (yet) and Slyvar, this draft incorporates the monk. :) Question: Slyvar, did you indicate that your int. bonus went toward your Stunning Fist DC? If so, when in the build did you acquire the Stunning Fist feat? I was under the impression that Dodge and Mobiity were substitutes for Stunning Fist and Deflect Arrows. So this would be a stealthy warrior build. How does it stack up against the Assassin type of TelfS build? I'm steering away from the uber assassin because the group I play with would take a dim view of anything that would kill outright without the required bloodshed and danger. Not so much the ethics of it, but rather the lack of drama. Still death attack is nice. Debating throwing the TelfS level 5 on at the end. In your opinion, is shadow discorporation something that would actually work, or at that level are hits so huge that the reflex save would be near impossible? Thanks Sparrowhawk
Slyver 02-14-06, 12:58 PM	After thinking about it, the last two levels of TS are better than going into dervish. With your high int this should net you up to 7 times/day more DD capacity as well as some other very nice bonuses. Drop the murky eyed flaw and remove combat expertise. For the 12th level feat take sun school. Everytime you teleport you get a free attack in addition to all your other attacks at your highest BAB (-2 of course from TWF). In my build I took stunning fist at level 15. It is a fantastic feat and with such a high DC it is well worth taking if you have free feat slots. To finish it off you might consider taking combat expertise and going into dervish at 20 if you make it that far. Anything else is fine too. As for the 3rd level of dervish being a waste because you already have spring attack, well, that extra feat is just a bonus. The real benefits are extra dervish dance/day and the additional damage and attack when you do so. The build looks good. :) Slyver
Sparrowhawk Charm 02-14-06, 10:00 PM	Ok, with one level open and only the two fighter levels looking like the generic odd levels out, what is the best way to go for that stealthy warrior with many attacks? Option 1. Add TS5 to the end, snagging the extra spell level (w/DD) and the covetted Shadow discorporation when the reflex level is at its beefiest. Using the fractional base attack, this would still give me 18/13/8/3 (18/13/8 off-hand). The saves would remain exactly the same (fort11, Ref 18, Will10). Option 2. Add TS5 & 6, reducing the dervish levels to 1. Base attack would go to 17, fort save would go up by one and I would lose the fast movement +5. I would gain death attack and yet more DD opportunities. Option 3 Scrap the fighter levels, add Dervish levels for a total of 5 levels. Base att remains 18, lose two feats (ouch), gain 1 AC (for a total somewhere around 27), gain more dervish dances, faster movement, dance if death, and +3 to attacks and damage w/ the dance. Lose 2 to fort and gain 1 to both reflex and will. Option 4 As Option 3, but work TS 5 and/ or 6 into the mix, dropping Dervish levels to 4 or 3 respectively. As is the build is pretty good. This is tweaking. Do you find that the attack options are cumbersome in gameplay? Or is it more that the numbers get crunched once and then you settle into the DD in and whup up routine? I definetely like this departure from the traditional hack and slash order of things so typical of RPing in general. I also like that the daggers should be VERY formidable by the end. Option 5 1 level of Assassin, for a couple new spells, stacking death attack (w/ TS) and another use of Intelligence. :) What do you think?