Post/Author/DateTime	Post
UltimateReality 06-17-05, 11:14 PM	I'm interested in playing a sorcerer that, well, doesn't suck. :P Current allowed source material includes: core, Complete cycle, Races cycle; and Libris Mortis and Draconomicon at the DM's discretion. Some particular feats from the ECS, FRCS, and PGtF are also allowed, as are spells (they have to be researched though, for all classes). We are starting at level 1 in a homebrew city-state republic that is part of a larger realm. Guilds of note include the Black Hand (basically mafia/mob types), the Triad (yakuza), the Mages of the Arcane Order (mages tend to run the city), the Harpers (yes, those ones), the Illumian Cabal (exactly what it sounds like), and North Star (monks who use divine and arcane magic). The rest of the party is non-evil and my DM prefers us to remain so, although I woudn't mind doing some subtle, smart evil, maybe LE. Our current characters include: a NG human wizard, a LG human cleric to St. Cuthbert, a CN half-elf rogue, a CG human rogue, a CN dwarf barbarian, and my current starting char -- a CN killoren druid. What are the different routes I can go with a sorcerer, given the above? Usually I play wizards for the versatility and power or bards for the social-pwn4ge and fun factor...
mycroft65536 06-17-05, 11:21 PM	The draconic feats in CA(namely draconic breath) plus a bunch of metabreath feats and draconic spells etc.
Shaken, not Stunned 06-17-05, 11:36 PM	UR, do you have UA? I am and have been a big fan of the battle sorcerer. If you take arcane disciple feat, you can pick up a nice thick repitoir of spells, and so you only miss out on a bit of spells per day (one per level {min 1}, to be exact). Obviously enough this class is not the same as a sorcerer if you are gunning for a more... sorcerer-y feel. In that case, I would recommend you grab a look at the ascetic mage feat from... CV. That is some scary stuff, their. Cha to AC, unarmed strike damage, the ablity to sack spells for added damage and to-hit on unarmed strike. Talkin' reach out and touch somebody, there.
UltimateReality 06-17-05, 11:47 PM	UR, do you have UA?Ayup, I do indeedy. :) If you take arcane disciple featI must be blind; can you tell me what book this is in? only miss out on a bit of spells per day (one per level {min 1}, to be exact).Easily fixed with a Cha-boost. In that case, I would recommend you grab a look at the ascetic mage feat from... CV. That is some scary stuff, there.oooh....pretty feat. :) Thanks. I am definitely going for a sorcerer-y feel...it's really the only reason to play one, as far as I can tell. ;) I just really dislike the limit on spells known, but there's no way around it.
catharz 06-17-05, 11:56 PM	I just really dislike the limit on spells known, but there's no way around it. Heh. Never say 'never' on the C.O. boards. :P
TinManFan 06-18-05, 12:08 AM	Ok, here goes. Pretty much done to death but what isn't round here? Sorc 6/ Ftr 1/ SpellSword 5/ EK 8 Channel Scorching Rays (BROKEN!!!). That'll get ya -20% ASF All the Martial wpns you could want. Do the normal Arcane Strike when ya can, lord knows you have the spells to ditch. Be sure to take a wierd weapon. You have a ftr lvl so you can afford to ditch a feat on an exotic wpn. However, I saw you have Illumians. I like them. No one else does it seems, but I do. FOr one reason. Sorc 6, Barb 1, EK 3, Rage Mage X. Polymorph into something with a HUGE frikkin str, use the tenser's like SLA and Rage. All in all, you should be able to get a good +18 to +24 to yer str. Then be sure to do that Illumian thing where they get the 2 word glyphs that change all their spellcasting power to a different stat (Say Str?) and start casting away. Not sure if that's only an ability of that PrC or if it takes feats to get those glyphs, which is why I left the X in Rage Mage. "DC is 40. Go ahead... Roll it."
McJarvis 06-18-05, 12:08 AM	Heh. Never say 'never' on the C.O. boards. :P For instance, the sandshaper prestige class from Sandstorm adds a massive amount of spells to your spells known.(useful ones too).((at first I thought it added them to the spell list, but it specifically says you know them like any other spell you know)). All kinds of cool spells. And a VERY sizable list.**EDIT- specifically, a list of 43 spells ranging from level 1 to 9/edit** And you only need to dip one level into the Prestige Class :)
TinManFan 06-18-05, 12:17 AM	Plus, never underestimate the Cyst spells from Libris Mortem. One feat, 10 spells.
Part-Human2 06-18-05, 01:15 AM	Instead of playing a Sorcerer that sucks, you could play one that blows.
Skyrocket 06-18-05, 01:18 AM	It's hard to go wrong with Fatespinner.
catharz 06-18-05, 02:26 AM	Instead of playing a Sorcerer that sucks, you could play one that blows. That is signature-worth material! - Anyway McJarvis gives a wonderful example. If you aren't above using Warmage, there is another way to trancend the normal bounds spontanious spells known: The Eldritch Master and it's 'odd' cousin, the Rainbow Servant.
Karlcullinane 06-18-05, 05:53 AM	In a few months my gaming group will be starting the WLD, I am already planning on one of a few Battle Sorcerer builds, the first of which starts with a Draconic Template Human B.S. with Draconic Heritage and Draconic Breath, at 3rd I plan on picking up Clinging Breath metabreath feat and picking mostly utility and battlefield control type spells. With the Draconic Breath feat, you'll be able to convert a spell slot to do damage, thus leaving your spell choices more flexable in an already tight build. Not too shabby IMO; certainly not broke, but it does make for an interesting build. The other meta breath feats are applicable as well, limited only by your Con score and how many feats you want to burn. (Free action maxamized breath weapons for PC's with the 3/4th BAB doing a full attack action could be nasty). Also my gaming group house rules the Sorcerer anyway, losing the Familiar, giving Eschew Materials for free, and then granting access to free metamagic feats from a list at 5, 10, 15, and 20. We feel the choice between the sorcerer and the wizard should be purely based on taste, not the fact that one RAW is argueably gimped (insert thread de-rail here-> ).
Neff 06-18-05, 06:55 AM	Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4 is a better lead-in to Spellsword, if not simply for Divine Grace.
RadicalTaoist 06-18-05, 07:26 AM	The Dragon Breath spell in the Draconomicon nearly puts Sorcerors on a competitive edge with Wizards all by itself. Add some metabreath spells (in the Dragon Spells section) and metabreath feats, as suggested (you can't use metabreath feats with the Draconic Breath feat I believe, metabreath spells are fair game though). Mage of the Arcane Order is good for Sorcs. Deal with the "crap, I don't know that spell!" moments. Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is just plain awesome for mages. Sorc 6, Barb 1, EK 3, Rage Mage X. Polymorph into something with a HUGE frikkin str, use the tenser's like SLA and Rage. All in all, you should be able to get a good +18 to +24 to yer str. Then be sure to do that Illumian thing where they get the 2 word glyphs that change all their spellcasting power to a different stat (Say Str?) and start casting away. Not sure if that's only an ability of that PrC or if it takes feats to get those glyphs, which is why I left the X in Rage Mage. "DC is 40. Go ahead... Roll it." The AeshKrau runeword allows you to use Strength in place of your normal casting stat...for bonus spell slots only. Sorry.
Karlcullinane 06-18-05, 09:33 AM	The Dragon Breath spell in the Draconomicon nearly puts Sorcerors on a competitive edge with Wizards all by itself. Add some metabreath spells (in the Dragon Spells section) and metabreath feats, as suggested (you can't use metabreath feats with the Draconic Breath feat I believe, metabreath spells are fair game though). Mage of the Arcane Order is good for Sorcs. Deal with the "crap, I don't know that spell!" moments. Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is just plain awesome for mages. The AeshKrau runeword allows you to use Strength in place of your normal casting stat...for bonus spell slots only. Sorry. I don't have my copy of the Draconomicon handy, but the only 'requirement" for the metabreath feats is to actually have a Breath weapon. How would the Draconic Breath feat not qualify for that when a spell would?
TinManFan 06-18-05, 10:35 AM	I thought it was only for spell power. Oh well. Extra slots to burn for Arcane strike.
Griff_Goodbeard 06-18-05, 01:45 PM	I don't have my copy of the Draconomicon handy, but the only 'requirement" for the metabreath feats is to actually have a Breath weapon. How would the Draconic Breath feat not qualify for that when a spell would? I was acctually just looking at this last night. The Draconic Breath feat doesn't qualify for Metabreath feats b/c Under the description of metabreath feats it states that you must have a breath weapon the is measured in rounds. (paraphrased obviously ;) ) It gives an example of a monster (don't remember which), that doesn't qualify b/c he uses his breath weapon once per minute. The Dragon Breath spell qualifies you though.
lgw 06-18-05, 01:49 PM	aside from the gish... sorcerors with that huge cha make really cool enchanters (le wouldnt be that bad therefor). nice prc then are mindbender or fate spinner :-)
Axle_Steelcat 06-18-05, 02:19 PM	The obvious, Monk1/SorcX/Enlightned Fist Take.. Ascetic Mage (3rd) (CAdv) Arcane Disciple (6th) (CD) Practiced Spellcaster (9th) 1st level Feat can be Extra Stunning Fist, opens up Rapid Stunning at 12th. (CW) Optionally to enhance the character... Tap on Monk2, if you like for Evasion If LG, take Palladin 2 for super-saves and 2 Full BAB Maybe Ascetic Knight (CAdv) too if your DM rules Enlightened Fist qualifies as Monk for the feats use. Arcane Strike can also be used with this to get that +1 to Hit/Spell level & +1d4 Damage/Spell level burned... making for a great punch combined with Hold Ray. If facing low AC targets alot, consider Power Attack with that tactic.. but you'll need 13 STR for that. -- If human, consider Weapon Finesse and using STR as a dump stat. Grab a Ring of Freedom of Movement to avoid grapples or use INT for ranks in Escape Artist. 36pt Buy STR 10 (2) CON 16 (8) +3 DEX 18 (14) +4 INT 12 (2) +1 WIS 10 (2) CHA 16 (8) +3 Human at these stats will give you 24 skills at 1st level, and just enough later to meet ranks required for EF.
Bonzai 06-18-05, 03:14 PM	The funny thing about being a Sorcerer is that there is no good reason not to take up a PrC with spell progression. I would higly encourage that you do so. However, try and pick a class that has Use Magic Devices as a class ability, then max it. The reason is for the Channel Charge feat. CHannel Charge is in LEoF, and lets you expend a spell of at least one lvl higher than the one your trying to activate, and if sucessful, it doesn't use up a charge. How does this help? Get the party wizard to make you a staff with all kinds of nifty utility spells that you don't know. You now have access to them at the cost of burning one spell of a higher lvl. Since you will be a Sorc, you will have a higher number of spells per day anyways. A nice staff will let you greatly increase your utility. Heck, you could even get some nice clericals on the staff too.
Zardnaar 06-18-05, 05:13 PM	I'm partial to the Player Guide to Faeran Sorceror/Incantrix builds myself.
Andarious 06-18-05, 06:43 PM	If you're gonna run a Soc eldrich knight, use Militia (from Races of Faerun I believe) it gets you as a first level feat all martial weapon profs. From there if you want turning, grab two levels in Sacred Excorcist (Complete Divine). Want lots of melee ability that's a good way to go about it. Use Divine Might (Complete Warrior), and Arcane Strike (Ditto). What you're looking at is Sorc 6/Eldrich Knight 10/Sacred Excorcist 2/Dragon Slayer 1/Spellsword 1 Less melee oriented builds that don't suck include the planar substitution sorc from Planar Handbook (if available) is really nice throw in Argent Savant and you're looking at (if your DM will rule adding half force damage to a spell does indeed warrent the force descriptor). Completely pwns. Unless someone's playing a dragon deciple that's using Amethist. Urrr... enjoy?
Dire Hamster 06-18-05, 06:57 PM	Dude, if you want a halfway decent sorcerer without all the hassle, simply use the Battle Sorcerer class variant in Unearthed Arcana. You take a small (very small) cut in spells BUT you get to use all light armor with no arcane spell failure, you get proficiency with ALL simple and ONE single-handed martial weapon, a d8 hit die, AND the cleric's base attack bonus progression (instead of the crappy one the sorcerer normally gets). If I play sorcerer at all, it's always a Battle Sorcerer; they are more fun and, more importantly, your character won't consistently get his ass kicked!
lgw 06-18-05, 08:21 PM	battle sorc: you can cast 1 spell of each level less a day. not so nice - but hey, thats ok... aaaand... you know 1 spell of each level less - thats only 25 instead of 34... not that nice, huh ?! ba = one-trick-wonder-gish to me...
happymoocow 06-18-05, 10:31 PM	Kobold anyone? :)
Griff_Goodbeard 06-18-05, 11:37 PM	I've been looking at races with a Sorcerer racial sub level. I'm building a Raptorian sorc and seriously considering sticking it out till level 11 and picking up all three of the racial sub levels. A small Air Elemental familiar, three extra spells known, and the ability to fly before and after casting is a pretty attractive power boost for a sorc.
Shaken, not Stunned 06-18-05, 11:52 PM	Quote: If you take arcane disciple feat I must be blind; can you tell me what book this is in? Complete divine. It takes some knowledge religion, but not much.
Griff_Goodbeard 06-18-05, 11:55 PM	Hasn't arcane disciple been nerfed to where you only get to add those spell to your class list, no spells known anymore?
Shaken, not Stunned 06-19-05, 12:44 AM	I believe that's true.
Corinthians 06-19-05, 01:24 AM	What about taking the arcane preperation feat before 6th level and heading into Mage of the Arcane Order?
Fălenganor 06-19-05, 01:54 AM	3.5 MotAO isn't worth anymore. 1 level dip in Sandshaper seems good on the other hand. If you can use Races of Eberron(well, it's a ''Races cycle'' book...), you should check the Daylong Unfettered Spontaniety thread, but maybe that's a little cheaper than what you intended. If you're Illumian(because of improved Sigil(Krau)) you could also try mixing sorcerer and druid with Arcane Hierophant. If you want to be a gish, 1 level in Spellsword, 1 in that Draconomicon class that grants 1BAB and 1CL Increase at the first level, and then go eldritch knight.
Dire Hamster 06-19-05, 03:00 AM	battle sorc: you can cast 1 spell of each level less a day. not so nice - but hey, thats ok... aaaand... you know 1 spell of each level less - thats only 25 instead of 34... not that nice, huh ?! Not so nice? More like: not THAT bad! My Battle Sorcerer character is so good in a fight that I hardly miss those extra spells. He uses magic to support his melee attacks. Like I said, you DO take a cut in spells...but get more hit points, armor (without spell failure), good weapons, and a WAY better attack bonus. You can hold your own in a physical fight AND cast spells. More than a fair trade, IMO. Without his/her spells, a standard sorcerer is nothing but a punching bag. Should magic fail, a battle sorcerer has other options. Anyhow, I was just presenting this player with a much simpler option, should they desire to use it.
Rashomon 06-19-05, 04:42 AM	Sand shaper. 43 spells. You know you want it. :p
Chaotica Maxima 06-19-05, 09:18 AM	*Laughs evilly at the Sandshapers power* Me likes...... :evillaugh: :schemes:
solbergb 06-20-05, 12:05 PM	Sandshaper loses a level of casting progression. Check with your DM about the spells known, it's ambiguous enough that you don't want to lose a caster level just to make pretty sand sculptures. As for the "a sorcererer should always PRC" I will deviate from the accepted norm and add "only if you don't play the lower levels." The price a sorcerer pays for a full caster level PRC is opportunity cost in lost feats and skills and spells known in the lower levels. MOTAA is a classic example, you waste two feats (cooperative spell, spell prep) to get only a few spell levels PER DAY of flexibility. With those two feats, you could pick metamagic that would expand the utility of the spells you do choose into a hell of a lot more options, and those options are available to you until you run out of spell slots. Which even for a baby sorc doesn't happen often. Now MOTAA is a rare one that pays back the feats later (loremaster does too). So if you start at level 12, it seems "free'. If you play from level 1-12, you start with a weak flexibility curve compared to a "real" sorcerer and catch up around level 10. Part of what makes it better around level 10 is that you can spend another feat for quicken spell and finally get some use out of the wasted spell prep feat you had to get at level 1 or 3. Even Fatespinner, which grants terrific abilities for the cost of only 15 skill points and one spell known can be problematic, if your sorcerer dumped intelligence or finds fitting in a divination spell to his spells known > L0 difficult before level 9. Before you laugh...my sorcerer is having more problem with the spell known requirement and may indeed put off fatespinner until level 11 to avoid hosing up the careful balance of her spells known in the level 6-8 range. I'm still debating it. Wizards pay after they enter the PRC, with usually a worse skill list and loss of bonus feats. Sorcerers pay BEFORE they enter the PRC, because they have a harder time musterng the skill points vs stuff they need like concentration (and bluff, the "spellcraft" of sorcerers) and because they don't get the two feat supercharge at levels 5 and 6 that make getting into most PRC's at level 7 easier. A wiz only has to live with a suboptimal feat for a level or so before the PRC starts paying back. A sorc lives with it from level 3-6 usually. A spell known requirement is usually a matter of paying a few gold for a scroll and some spell ink for a wizard, and a day or two of downtime (or lacking that, taking it as you level isn't as bad, you can make up a bad spell choice with cash and time later). A spell known for a sorc in the levels where she only has 6-10 total spells known over level 0 is a major requirement. In the low levels spells known are essentially feats for sorcerers. This is why metamagic is so good for them, it multiplies their spells known. So I would say stop looking in the feat and PRC section when trying to make a sorcerer that "doesn't suck" and instead start with the spells known. That's the thing that matters. A sorc1-20 can be very strong with nothing but PHB metamagic and core spells, if you pick the right ones, and in the right order, with synergy. First pick the spells. then pick metamagic that operates on most of them. Then go back and pick spells that work with the metamagic you like iterate When you finally have a mix of spells+metamagic that looks good at every level you intend to play... THEN look at PRC's and other feats. You will find it is actually a strain to fit most of them in before level 10-12, most of the time. The whole "a sorcerer past level 5-6 without a PRC is stupid" thing is just arrogant. It isn't always true, not with many very strong sorcerer builds. What is true with many is that you can do the PRC that early but the levels before that PRC and the early PRC levels will suck compared to a core sorcerer. Given that most campaigns that start at level 1 spend most of their time in the 1-12 range, the idea that you defer fun today for fun tomorrow sounds like what your parents thought was strong moral character, but in practice is not always the best idea when you are playing a game where the journey is more important than the destination.
UltimateReality 06-20-05, 05:15 PM	First, thanks for your extensive reply. :) It's been quite helpful for me. Sandshaper loses a level of casting progression. Check with your DM about the spells known, it's ambiguous enough that you don't want to lose a caster level just to make pretty sand sculptures.I'm assuming this PrC is in the Sandstorm book? If so, I've got next to nil crack at getting it: besides it not being on the campaign's approved source material, I'm not sure anyone in our group even owns the book. I don't suppose there's a web excerpt I cook peek at online or something for the Sandshaper? As for the "a sorcererer should always PRC" I will deviate from the accepted norm and add "only if you don't play the lower levels."This campaign is starting from level 1 and going all the way up. My DM never has us start above lvl 3. With those two feats, you could pick metamagic that would expand the utility of the spells you do choose into a hell of a lot more options, and those options are available to you until you run out of spell slots. Which even for a baby sorc doesn't happen often.So sorcerers really depend on and should vary their options with metamagic feats? I'm assuming that the feat that lets you apply the MM feats without taking a full round action to cast is a no brainer level one feat, then... So I would say stop looking in the feat and PRC section when trying to make a sorcerer that "doesn't suck" and instead start with the spells known. That's the thing that matters. A sorc1-20 can be very strong with nothing but PHB metamagic and core spells, if you pick the right ones, and in the right order, with synergy.That would be the key with my DM -- picking the right spells in the right order. ;) What is true with many is that you can do the PRC that early but the levels before that PRC and the early PRC levels will suck compared to a core sorcerer.So basically we're aiming to smooth the power curve, which makes sense to me. I'm also assuming the best race to play in this whole deal would be a human (feat and skill points, mmm tasty). I can't find any allowed race with a bonus to Charisma that doesn't have an LA. :( I was thinking of playing a half-elf just for the flavour (and cuz our group maintains that half-elves suck and therefore doesn't play them), but losing that feat doesn't make me too happy...Perhaps I'll save that for another character. (I know the drow bard I made was a kick in the face, because previously both the class and the race were considered not powerful enough for the sacrifices made.)
spaceadet 06-20-05, 06:36 PM	For one of the most versatile Sorcerer builds I have seen, this thread http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=433442 came up with a build from solbergb I believe that most/all of this is from PHB and the Complete books. Spell selection is important, but mix it with the Metamagic: Because you will be casting them a lot. And they will define you. At level 5, my sorcereress can do quite a lot with her spells, but since she's only one or two adventures from 6, I'll show that build to see what you can do with 4/3/1 spells (and cantrips!), plus metamagic. I'll show the metamagicked stuff too, so you can see what she has at her fingertips This character is often the party "rogue" doing with spells what she lacks in trapfinding. The order is the order I chose them. Genearally it is a decent option for your first spell on a list to be not really metamagicable, since it is top tier, but your next spells should be picked with metamagic in mind since you'll have higher tiers to play with. Sometimes you have to think way ahead, as in my chained mage hand (I hardly ever use mage hand, but chain mage hand does stuff that my other spells don't, and is a useful "little brother" to telekenesis violent thrust). The character is a TK themed sorcereress, with a caveat that doing stuff "near surfaces" is easier (ie, tenser's disk is more powerful than unseen servant, which does similar things but away from surfaces, evard's tentacles are more powerful than violent thrust TK, etc). It includes "breaking things" regardless of target type (magic missile, shatter, dispel magic) although the latter are later picks (L7 or 9, depending on how I feel at L7). Grease is a very weak evards tentacles, except they just pushes things away from the surface. Shadow binding is like grease, except the tentacles wrap you up and impair your movement instead of pushing other things away from you.) Feats are: Eschew Materials (flavor) Enlarge Spell (very useful on utility spells like unseen servant) Sculpt Spell (very useful on small area spells, of which I have several) Chain Spell (only for cantrips at L6, but it's there for chain grease at L8 to protect party members from my evard's tentacles) Cantrips: Read Magic (opening the entire spell list in scrolls to me) Prestidigitation (1001 uses) Open/Close (my most commonly used "rogue" spell) Mage Hand Dancing Lights (swapped out level 6 for detect poison, because I just have Unseen servants now 24x7 with bullseye lanterns) Mending (something my char likes away from adventuring, she's lazy) Detect Magic (trapfinding mostly) Detect Poison (trapfinding mostly) Level 1: Sculpted Prestidigitation (yes, everyone in 10' of me is dry, for an hour) Enlarged Open/Close (many traps have "close" range effects) Enlarged Mage Hand Sculpted Detect Poison (scan a 20' spread or 40' cone, not a 5x5x5 cube) Unseen Servant (many, many uses for my extra move action in a combat round, such as moving dropped items to allies, re-arming disarmed fighters, getting a potion into the hand of someone who will save the guy bleeding out, etc, plus it can lay down smokescreen, hold the bullseye lantern and drop caltrops. And out of combat....oh it is just lovely) Tenser's Disc (Unseen Servant's dumber brother, who is much stronger but much more limited. Avoiding balance checks for the party, transporting slow party members (including shifting them around in combat with spare move actions), transporting bodies, bulk goods and even once weilding a blind dwarf "swing left!" "no lower!".) Magic Missile (all purpose direct damage. Not powerful but steady and reliable and you will never run out. Most often used to finish off badly injured enemies) Grease (this is a trip spell, disarm spell, grapple protection spell and it also messes up charges, 5' steps etc if the enemy can't do DC15 balance checks reliably) Level 2: Enlarged, Sculpted Detect Poison Enlarged Tenser's Disc (longer leash before it winks out) Enlarged Unseen Servant (Ditto) Enlarged Magic Missile (yes I CAN shoot him from all the way over here) Enlarged Grease Sculpted Grease (if 5x5 grease is good, 20' spread of grease is BETTER!) Sudden Fly (my new favorite spell. Flight when you need it most, with no opportunity cost beyond spell slot burn) False Life (my one and only defense spell, other than distance between me and the other guys reflected in enlarge spell and Sudden Fly) Level 3 Chain Mage Hand (Throw your level in flasks of oil at a nearby enemy or swarm, manipulate many things in one concentration action, etc) Chain Open/Close ("In the surprise round the doors swing open revealing a bunch of monsters. They're all set to full attack when they get to go". "On my action all the doors swing shut again.") Chain Mending ("I only have so many cantrip slots....") Chain Detect Poison (it can detect on target object/creature instead of area) Enlarged, Sculpted Grease Shadow Binding (interrupts actions and entangles victims with a will save. Lowers dex for balance and reflex saves vs grease. Plus dazes for a round in a non-mind-affecting way, which is brutal when you can cast it over and over.) I feel I have plenty of options with this spell mix at level 6. I do carry about 20 first and second level scrolls (mostly first, with 3-4 second) for the rare situations where these don't get the job done, and I have a wand of enlarge person and access to buy a 2nd level wand from DMG list (rescued a crafter from a prison cell) which I'll be able to afford sometime in level 6 (probably going to take invisibility...it's good for the arcane caster to be able to screen the party in a more subtle way than obscuring mist sometimes)[/QUOTE]
solbergb 06-20-05, 06:57 PM	First, thanks for your extensive reply. :) I'm also assuming the best race to play in this whole deal would be a human (feat and skill points, mmm tasty). I can't find any allowed race with a bonus to Charisma that doesn't have an LA. :( I was thinking of playing a half-elf just for the flavour (and cuz our group maintains that half-elves suck and therefore doesn't play them), but losing that feat doesn't make me too happy...Perhaps I'll save that for another character. (I know the drow bard I made was a kick in the face, because previously both the class and the race were considered not powerful enough for the sacrifices made.) Yeah. Human is a good race for sorcerer. The feat and the skill point really do help. Note however that I'm happy with my sorceress who took Eschew Materials for roleplay reasons. She could have just as easily been a half-elf without the feat and she'd only be shy 1 skill point a level and have bonuses to social skills and alertness stuff. Plus sword and bow proficiency heh, which would have been meaningless (she's fired a crossbow in anger once, missing. She threw a javelin once, missing. She wears a dagger but has never drawn it in combat, not even to make a flank. I should probably throw it away but it IS a tool. She has failed to fool anybody into thinking she was anything but a sorceress regardless of the battleaxes, whips or rapiers she carried at various times. The fact that she can't help using unseen servant and prestidigitation compulsively to make her life easier kind of gives it away). The only way you can really go wrong with a sorcerer is to take a race with LA (and I'm pretty down on losing caster levels for any reason too). If your sorcerer sucks, but you have full spell progression it is almost always your choice of spells known, not anything else (even feats) that makes you suck. Think about what you want to be able to do. Pick spells that let you do it. Pick metamagic to make it seem less like a wizard and more like you just do the power. Reshuffle. But be sure that the main spells you pick are spells you love to use, over and over, and that they are useful incombat, out of combat and versus a variety of foes and situations. Because...that's what you'll be doing. Casting a few spells over and over, to accomplish your goals. I tend to design sorcerers like I would design a superhero. Remember to have offense, defense and mobility, and utility or perception stuff is also nice to fit in if you have room. But mostly be true to the concept. The most failed sorcerer builds I've seen pick the spells their wizard buddy used most often when he first got a given spell tier. There is no synergy in the spells, way too much emphasis on variations of similar offensive tactics and zero flexibility. I have yet to see a "themed" sorcerer that actually sucked, because when you design around a concept you remember to fit in the "chrome" which usually means at the end of the day you have some offense, defense, mobility AND stuff to do when your character isn't killing orcs. (would YOU choose a list of all zaps if you had the ability to do magic? I don't think so. Almost everyone would want to fly, most folks would want some way of mitigating damage, and what about all those boring everyday tasks? Presditigitation at LEAST. Possibly other things)
UltimateReality 06-20-05, 08:53 PM	For one of the most versatile Sorcerer builds I have seen, this thread http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=433442 came up with a build from solbergbThanks for this link; there's a goldmine of information here I'm just starting to sift through...
EvilDuck 06-20-05, 09:55 PM	A few handy tidbits for playing a sorcerer: - Get extra spells known. In the past, this was accomplished by taking a class that granted a domain or taking MotAO, however those methods have been squelched by the merciless bastard that is errata. Now, the best ways are in Frostburn(frost mage) and Sandstorm(sand shaper). As I'm a little rusty on my min/max knowledge, there's prolly more, but I can't remember them. - Take advantage of high Charisma. Lots of miscellaneous useful abilities have save DC's based on CHA. If you can pick up divine grace, get it and push your saves through the roof. Also, get PrCs that expand your skill list so you can pick up stuff like UMD and Diplomacy. - Metamagic is your friend. How often have you had to chose between metamagicing a spell and moving? Does the fighter worry about spending a full-round action to get all of his attacks in? With metamagic, you can keep a low-level spell useful throughout your career. - The most important thing is spell selection. Choose spells that will be useful from the point you get them to twentieth level and beyond. Vary your spell selection.
Sentient 06-20-05, 10:37 PM	For one of the most versatile Sorcerer builds I have seen, this thread http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=433442 came up with a build from solbergb I believe that most/all of this is from PHB and the Complete books. Spell selection is important, but mix it with the Metamagic: Because you will be casting them a lot. And they will define you. At level 5, my sorcereress can do quite a lot with her spells, but since she's only one or two adventures from 6, I'll show that build to see what you can do with 4/3/1 spells (and cantrips!), plus metamagic. I'll show the metamagicked stuff too, so you can see what she has at her fingertips This character is often the party "rogue" doing with spells what she lacks in trapfinding. The order is the order I chose them. Genearally it is a decent option for your first spell on a list to be not really metamagicable, since it is top tier, but your next spells should be picked with metamagic in mind since you'll have higher tiers to play with. Sometimes you have to think way ahead, as in my chained mage hand (I hardly ever use mage hand, but chain mage hand does stuff that my other spells don't, and is a useful "little brother" to telekenesis violent thrust). The character is a TK themed sorcereress, with a caveat that doing stuff "near surfaces" is easier (ie, tenser's disk is more powerful than unseen servant, which does similar things but away from surfaces, evard's tentacles are more powerful than violent thrust TK, etc). It includes "breaking things" regardless of target type (magic missile, shatter, dispel magic) although the latter are later picks (L7 or 9, depending on how I feel at L7). Grease is a very weak evards tentacles, except they just pushes things away from the surface. Shadow binding is like grease, except the tentacles wrap you up and impair your movement instead of pushing other things away from you.) Feats are: Eschew Materials (flavor) Enlarge Spell (very useful on utility spells like unseen servant) Sculpt Spell (very useful on small area spells, of which I have several) Chain Spell (only for cantrips at L6, but it's there for chain grease at L8 to protect party members from my evard's tentacles) Cantrips: Read Magic (opening the entire spell list in scrolls to me) Prestidigitation (1001 uses) Open/Close (my most commonly used "rogue" spell) Mage Hand Dancing Lights (swapped out level 6 for detect poison, because I just have Unseen servants now 24x7 with bullseye lanterns) Mending (something my char likes away from adventuring, she's lazy) Detect Magic (trapfinding mostly) Detect Poison (trapfinding mostly) Level 1: Sculpted Prestidigitation (yes, everyone in 10' of me is dry, for an hour) Enlarged Open/Close (many traps have "close" range effects) Enlarged Mage Hand Sculpted Detect Poison (scan a 20' spread or 40' cone, not a 5x5x5 cube) Unseen Servant (many, many uses for my extra move action in a combat round, such as moving dropped items to allies, re-arming disarmed fighters, getting a potion into the hand of someone who will save the guy bleeding out, etc, plus it can lay down smokescreen, hold the bullseye lantern and drop caltrops. And out of combat....oh it is just lovely) Tenser's Disc (Unseen Servant's dumber brother, who is much stronger but much more limited. Avoiding balance checks for the party, transporting slow party members (including shifting them around in combat with spare move actions), transporting bodies, bulk goods and even once weilding a blind dwarf "swing left!" "no lower!".) Magic Missile (all purpose direct damage. Not powerful but steady and reliable and you will never run out. Most often used to finish off badly injured enemies) Grease (this is a trip spell, disarm spell, grapple protection spell and it also messes up charges, 5' steps etc if the enemy can't do DC15 balance checks reliably) Level 2: Enlarged, Sculpted Detect Poison Enlarged Tenser's Disc (longer leash before it winks out) Enlarged Unseen Servant (Ditto) Enlarged Magic Missile (yes I CAN shoot him from all the way over here) Enlarged Grease Sculpted Grease (if 5x5 grease is good, 20' spread of grease is BETTER!) Sudden Fly (my new favorite spell. Flight when you need it most, with no opportunity cost beyond spell slot burn) False Life (my one and only defense spell, other than distance between me and the other guys reflected in enlarge spell and Sudden Fly) Level 3 Chain Mage Hand (Throw your level in flasks of oil at a nearby enemy or swarm, manipulate many things in one concentration action, etc) Chain Open/Close ("In the surprise round the doors swing open revealing a bunch of monsters. They're all set to full attack when they get to go". "On my action all the doors swing shut again.") Chain Mending ("I only have so many cantrip slots....") Chain Detect Poison (it can detect on target object/creature instead of area) Enlarged, Sculpted Grease Shadow Binding (interrupts actions and entangles victims with a will save. Lowers dex for balance and reflex saves vs grease. Plus dazes for a round in a non-mind-affecting way, which is brutal when you can cast it over and over.) I feel I have plenty of options with this spell mix at level 6. I do carry about 20 first and second level scrolls (mostly first, with 3-4 second) for the rare situations where these don't get the job done, and I have a wand of enlarge person and access to buy a 2nd level wand from DMG list (rescued a crafter from a prison cell) which I'll be able to afford sometime in level 6 (probably going to take invisibility...it's good for the arcane caster to be able to screen the party in a more subtle way than obscuring mist sometimes)[/QUOTE] This post is inspiring!