A suggested Gish Build of My Own [Archive] - Wizards Community

A suggested Gish Build of My Own [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zodiacphoenix
04-18-06, 02:45 PM Mystical Knight of Celestia
1 fighter / 5 paladin / 4 sorcerer (or 3 Wizard) / 3 cleric (or druid) / 7 or 8 Mystic Theurge

Okay...so basically, fighter for the armor and weapon preference build, paladin (5 levels) for the special mount, and the sorcerer or wizard and cleric or druid for the Mystic Theurge.
This is my basic thoughts for the build. What feats, spells, and equipment woud you suggest? We are using the basic set of books (PHB, MM 1 & 2, DMG all 3.5e) with a few supplemental books. All other classes/prestege classes welcome, provided I have a reference...
Thanks, tell me your thoughts.
PhoenixInferno
04-18-06, 02:58 PM <shudder> Where to begin...oh, I know - XP penalty. Unless you can get two favored classes, you're guaranteed to have an XP penalty. You're way short on BAB - 13 BAB in 20 levels DOES NOT CUT IT. Second, you've only got 11 caster levels - granted, that's 11 caster levels both arcane and divine, but at 20th level you're just getting 6th level spells when full spellcasters are Time Stopping you, full melee attackers are carving you into ribbons, CoDzillas are pwn'ing you, and even "classic" Gishes can tear you a new one.

You basically can't do anything - and don't say that Persistant Divine Power is going to save you.
00_Whupass
04-18-06, 03:11 PM From an optimization standpoint this isn't really a gish build, its trying to be a triple treat build, combining the Martial, Arcane and Divine roles. If I'm recalling all of these classes correctly this build would have BAB +13, and 6th level arcane and divine spells (provided you use wizard over sorcrerer, else 5th level arcane).

My advice is go either fighter or paladin not both. Your reason for the fighter level was weapon and armor proficiency, but the paladin and fighter have the same proficiencies, so I don't understand your motivation.

Personally, if I were making a triple threat build like this I would probably start from Wizard 3/Cleric 3/MT 10/Eldritch Knight 4, which is possible with the Militia feat which a wizard can take at 1st level granting proficiency in martial weapons. This build has 13 Divine Caster Levels and 16 Arcane Caster levels, giving it 6th level divine spells and 8th level arcane spells, while still getting a BAB of +11 for that 3rd attack. Of course this is entirely off the top of my head with no access to my books so I could probably do better. Furthermore I would be reluctant to play a triple threat at all outside of a solo game, since such a build never really outshines any other party member in any particular role, but just kind of gets by in all of them.
Zodiacphoenix
04-18-06, 03:16 PM okay...so fighter 1 / wiz 3/ sor 3 / mystic theurge 10 and extra classes what?
00_Whupass
04-18-06, 03:21 PM The two benchmarks of a gish build are BAB +16, and 8th level spells, there's no way you can meet either of those benchmarks with the divine casting component, if what you want to play is a triple threat like the build your proposing there is a triple threat guidebook around here on the CO boards somewhere you should look at, I will try to find a link.
JosephKell
04-18-06, 03:24 PM okay...so fighter 1 / wiz 3/ sor 3 / mystic theurge 10 and extra classes what?(I assume you meant Wiz 3/Clrc 3) What are you trying to do? Why take the Fighter level at all? You are going to have piddly hit points. Look at those 17 levels: 1d10 + 3d4 + 3d8 + 10d4... You want to stand back and buff everyone!

I have a friend that plays a Clr 3/Wiz 3 who is heading to Theurge. Also, who cares about the last 4 levels? Worry about those as you get closer to them. Last game, what he did was cast Shield Other on the Warmage (Fighter 1/Warmage 5, heading for EK so he can really nail those touch attacks on guys with cover).
R2Keen2
04-18-06, 03:24 PM Wizard or Sorcerer, you can't be both because Mystic requires Divine Magic.

The reason for fighter would be for heavy armor and martial weapon proficency to enter Spellsword. Paladin is a good alternate choice to fighter if your a sorcerer because 2 levels gains you Cha mod to saves which as a gish generally your Reflex is pretty weak.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zodiacphoenix 04-18-06, 02:45 PM	Mystical Knight of Celestia 1 fighter / 5 paladin / 4 sorcerer (or 3 Wizard) / 3 cleric (or druid) / 7 or 8 Mystic Theurge Okay...so basically, fighter for the armor and weapon preference build, paladin (5 levels) for the special mount, and the sorcerer or wizard and cleric or druid for the Mystic Theurge. This is my basic thoughts for the build. What feats, spells, and equipment woud you suggest? We are using the basic set of books (PHB, MM 1 & 2, DMG all 3.5e) with a few supplemental books. All other classes/prestege classes welcome, provided I have a reference... Thanks, tell me your thoughts.
PhoenixInferno 04-18-06, 02:58 PM	<shudder> Where to begin...oh, I know - XP penalty. Unless you can get two favored classes, you're guaranteed to have an XP penalty. You're way short on BAB - 13 BAB in 20 levels DOES NOT CUT IT. Second, you've only got 11 caster levels - granted, that's 11 caster levels both arcane and divine, but at 20th level you're just getting 6th level spells when full spellcasters are Time Stopping you, full melee attackers are carving you into ribbons, CoDzillas are pwn'ing you, and even "classic" Gishes can tear you a new one. You basically can't do anything - and don't say that Persistant Divine Power is going to save you.
00_Whupass 04-18-06, 03:11 PM	From an optimization standpoint this isn't really a gish build, its trying to be a triple treat build, combining the Martial, Arcane and Divine roles. If I'm recalling all of these classes correctly this build would have BAB +13, and 6th level arcane and divine spells (provided you use wizard over sorcrerer, else 5th level arcane). My advice is go either fighter or paladin not both. Your reason for the fighter level was weapon and armor proficiency, but the paladin and fighter have the same proficiencies, so I don't understand your motivation. Personally, if I were making a triple threat build like this I would probably start from Wizard 3/Cleric 3/MT 10/Eldritch Knight 4, which is possible with the Militia feat which a wizard can take at 1st level granting proficiency in martial weapons. This build has 13 Divine Caster Levels and 16 Arcane Caster levels, giving it 6th level divine spells and 8th level arcane spells, while still getting a BAB of +11 for that 3rd attack. Of course this is entirely off the top of my head with no access to my books so I could probably do better. Furthermore I would be reluctant to play a triple threat at all outside of a solo game, since such a build never really outshines any other party member in any particular role, but just kind of gets by in all of them.
Zodiacphoenix 04-18-06, 03:16 PM	okay...so fighter 1 / wiz 3/ sor 3 / mystic theurge 10 and extra classes what?
00_Whupass 04-18-06, 03:21 PM	The two benchmarks of a gish build are BAB +16, and 8th level spells, there's no way you can meet either of those benchmarks with the divine casting component, if what you want to play is a triple threat like the build your proposing there is a triple threat guidebook around here on the CO boards somewhere you should look at, I will try to find a link.
JosephKell 04-18-06, 03:24 PM	okay...so fighter 1 / wiz 3/ sor 3 / mystic theurge 10 and extra classes what?(I assume you meant Wiz 3/Clrc 3) What are you trying to do? Why take the Fighter level at all? You are going to have piddly hit points. Look at those 17 levels: 1d10 + 3d4 + 3d8 + 10d4... You want to stand back and buff everyone! I have a friend that plays a Clr 3/Wiz 3 who is heading to Theurge. Also, who cares about the last 4 levels? Worry about those as you get closer to them. Last game, what he did was cast Shield Other on the Warmage (Fighter 1/Warmage 5, heading for EK so he can really nail those touch attacks on guys with cover).
R2Keen2 04-18-06, 03:24 PM	Wizard or Sorcerer, you can't be both because Mystic requires Divine Magic. The reason for fighter would be for heavy armor and martial weapon proficency to enter Spellsword. Paladin is a good alternate choice to fighter if your a sorcerer because 2 levels gains you Cha mod to saves which as a gish generally your Reflex is pretty weak.