A Tome of Battle Gish! [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Tome of Battle Gish! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Einvaldurinn_mikli
12-05-06, 01:36 PM In a game I will be playing in shortly, I decided I wanted to play a Gish. A few days ago I purchased Tome of Battle: Book of nine Swords. And naturally, I wanted to combine the two.
The game will be using a 31pt buy(strange value huh?) and starts at level two. Tiefling has been houseruled to LA +0(like it should be IMO)
This is what I came up with so far:
Race: Tiefling
1. Warblade Flaws: Murky Eyed, Shaky , Feats: Two Weapon fighting, Combat Expertise, Improved Intiative
2. Transmuter Scribe Scroll, Summon Familiar
3. Transmuter Practiced Spellcaster
4. Transmuter
5. Transmuter
6. Transmuter Feat: Steady Concentration,(substituted for Combat casting as a prereq for Abjurant Champ, ) Extend Spell
7.The Jade Phoenix Mage
8. The Jade Phoenix Mage
9. The Jade Phoenix Mage Empower Spell
10. Abjurant Champion
11. The Jade Phoenix Mage
12. The Jade Phoenix Mage ???
13. Abjurant Champion
14. The Jade Phoenix Mage
15. The Jade Phoenix Mage Quicken Spell
16. The Jade Phoenix Mage
17. Abjurant Champion
18. Abjurant Champion Martial study(???)
19. The Jade Phoenix Mage
20. The Jade Phoenix Mage

For starting stats I was thinking:
Str 14(16?) 6-10 pts
Dex 16 6pts
Con 14 6pts
Int 16(18?)
Wis 8 0pts
Cha 10 2pts(Cha penalty was waived) What should I raise?
As for Disciplines and chosen schools, I think I'll go for a Transmuter specializing in Tiger Claw manuevers(for the TWF goodness found there)
This gets me 17 bab, level 17 wizard casting and 7(??)th level manuevers. I want to TWF with a longsword and Dagger so if there are any TWF feats out there that I just can't miss out on please post them. I will have acess to the book.
What are good feat, spell and manuever choices for me?

Einvaldurinn_mikli
Daeger
12-05-06, 01:41 PM I recommend you splash a level of Swordsage in. You'll thank yourself for it when you have things the Concentration replacements for saving throws as well as that 2nd level short range teleport power in Shadow Hand that you can just keep using over and over and over.
Rashomon
12-05-06, 02:17 PM Warblade also gets Diamond Mind, he can get his save replacers from there instead.
grimreapercactus
12-05-06, 02:51 PM Unless you are starting from first level and want the melee abilities right from the get-go, i'd recommend moving the warblade level higher (say, 5th), to give you access to 2nd level manuevers pre-Jade Pheonix. Since Initiator Level still increases (albeit at 1/2) with non-martial-adept classes, you can manipulate the placement of your martial levels to maximize the manuevers you get.
Einvaldurinn_mikli
12-05-06, 03:11 PM I will be starting at second level and will need melee from the get go. Maybe I could use the retraining rules from PHB II to switch them out?
GaffeR
12-05-06, 03:14 PM Don't you need to keep the same level "spell" that you swap from?

Ugh, retraining.
Daeger
12-05-06, 03:14 PM Sure, Warblades get Diamond Mind - but you have so very little readied slots, believe me. Swordsage is definitely an appreciated addition.
+1 Longsword
12-05-06, 03:31 PM I think you're missing a 7th level. You can fit 1 more level of Abjurant Champion into the build.
Einvaldurinn_mikli
12-05-06, 03:40 PM Sure, Warblades get Diamond Mind - but you have so very little readied slots, believe me. Swordsage is definitely an appreciated addition.

But then I would lose ninth level spells(and a point of bab, but that is unimportant seeing as how I have 17), do you really think that's a fair trade? Because I sure don't.

How about some good manuever choices?
neceros
12-05-06, 03:49 PM But then I would lose ninth level spells(and a point of bab, but that is unimportant seeing as how I have 17), do you really think that's a fair trade? Because I sure don't.

How about some good manuever choices?

Every gish has to compromise somewhere. Would you rahter have spells or Meaneuvers? I'd go for the spells, personally, since meaneuvers return quickly and spells are only once a day.
Einvaldurinn_mikli
12-05-06, 03:54 PM Every gish has to compromise somewhere. Would you rahter have spells or Meaneuvers? I'd go for the spells, personally, since meaneuvers return quickly and spells are only once a day.

Yeah, compromise between ninth level spells or a few extra first level maneuvers? It's a given man.
Einvaldurinn_mikli
12-05-06, 04:49 PM Anyone have any ideas about where I should put the remaining 5 ability points?
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer
12-05-06, 06:07 PM It would help to know what tother books you have access to for sugesting Feats.
Einvaldurinn_mikli
12-05-06, 06:26 PM It would help to know what tother books you have access to for sugesting Feats.

Almost every single one out there. My group has over a hundred books when we pool them.
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer
12-05-06, 06:45 PM Then if your Twfing as a Gish you need to look into Somatic weponry from Complete Mage, lets you actualy cast spells with a weapon in each hand. and Cresent moon Weapin style feat was made for Longsword/dagger parings. Its in complete warior. Take a look at reserve feats too. Only others Id sugest are the No-braners, Imp and grtr Twfing.
Endarire
12-06-06, 02:57 AM How are you getting extra damage dice to make TWF viable? Rogues have sneak attack and rangers have favored enemies. I ask because I'm mostly unfamiliar with ToB.

-EE
neceros
12-06-06, 02:59 AM How are you getting extra damage dice to make TWF viable? Rogues have sneak attack and rangers have favored enemies. I ask because I'm mostly unfamiliar with ToB.

-EE

ToB breaks many, many 'known rules' when it comes to limits and optomizations. I love the book personally, but many see it as unbalancing. The maneuvers can become mind boggling, comparing to spells at times, and are all almost Ex.
Daeger
12-06-06, 03:07 AM Sure, swordsage wouldn't be as good for long term. But for short term, it's definitely a good investment. If you're starting at level 2, for instance.
Daeger
12-06-06, 03:10 AM ToB breaks many, many 'known rules' when it comes to limits and optomizations. I love the book personally, but many see it as unbalancing. The maneuvers can become mind boggling, comparing to spells at times, and are all almost Ex.
I think the point of the book was to make melee comparable to spells.
neceros
12-06-06, 03:12 AM I think the point of the book was to make melee comparable to spells.

And I agree.
ressurrector
12-06-06, 03:18 AM I'd second the suggestion to grab some reserve feats, for some big reasons.
They do not provoke AoOs upon use
They do not require an open hand or some such
They do not suffer ASF, so wear all the armor you want.

Also look into the polymorph one, it can give you some nice bonuses for a gish, as a swift action you can gain things like:
+2 damage
+5' speed
Temp HP=HD (do this every round and give yourself what is essentially DR)

The big decision in your build is going to be this:
Are you primarily melee with casting to improve your melee prowess?
or are you primarily a caster?

If it's the first, invest heavily into reserve feats, sac spell levels into your JPM abilities, what few spells you do actually cast make stilled, and wear all the armor you want.

If it's the latter, then focus your maneuver choices on those that will let you back up from combat and survive. Then beef your casting full bore.

Just wondering, is your DM allowing the Abjurant Champions AC bonus effect to add onto Mage Armor/Greater MA?
neceros
12-06-06, 03:19 AM I'd second the suggestion to grab some reserve feats, for some big reasons.
They do not provoke AoOs upon use
They do not require an open hand or some such
They do not suffer ASF, so wear all the armor you want.

Also look into the polymorph one, it can give you some nice bonuses for a gish, as a swift action you can gain things like:
+2 damage
+5' speed
Temp HP=HD (do this every round and give yourself what is essentially DR)

The big decision in your build is going to be this:
Are you primarily melee with casting to improve your melee prowess?
or are you primarily a caster?

If it's the first, invest heavily into reserve feats, sac spell levels into your JPM abilities, what few spells you do actually cast make stilled, and wear all the armor you want.

If it's the latter, then focus your maneuver choices on those that will let you back up from combat and survive. Then beef your casting full bore.

Just wondering, is your DM allowing the Abjurant Champions AC bonus effect to add onto Mage Armor/Greater MA?

Also, as supernatural abilities, they don't abide by spell resistance rules.
ressurrector
12-06-06, 03:21 AM Also, as supernatural abilities, they don't abide by spell resistance rules.

I thought SU abilities were affected by SR...
Isn't that why Desert Wind strikes won't work inside an AMF?
neceros
12-06-06, 03:23 AM I thought SU abilities were affected by SR...
Isn't that why Desert Wind strikes won't work inside an AMF?

Nope, supernatural is not affected by dispelling or Spell resistance. Anti Magic fields, however, supress anything magical. So yes, Su are still affected by AMF.
ressurrector
12-06-06, 04:55 AM Nope, supernatural is not affected by dispelling or Spell resistance. Anti Magic fields, however, supress anything magical. So yes, Su are still affected by AMF.

wow... eat your heart out warlock?
Einvaldurinn_mikli
12-06-06, 03:08 PM I think that I will be mainly a front line warrior using spellcasting to augment my melee and give me a vast array of options. I will of course use the Arcane Wrath ability almost every turn('cept when I cast a quickened spell or abjuration).

Any clue where I should put the remaining five ability points?

Also, what should I throw out for reserve feats then?
ressurrector
12-06-06, 04:06 PM I think that I will be mainly a front line warrior using spellcasting to augment my melee and give me a vast array of options. I will of course use the Arcane Wrath ability almost every turn('cept when I cast a quickened spell or abjuration).

Any clue where I should put the remaining five ability points?

Also, what should I throw out for reserve feats then?

Your primary stats look like Con, Int, and Str.
Not sure about the order, but these would be the ones to beef.

Definitely take Minor Shapeshift, since you're a transmutation specialist.
It's the best gish reserve feat.
Dimensional Jaunt might be worthwile, std action to teleport 5' per level of prepared spell.
For the others, decide if you need the minor blasting/buff/debuff powers they provide.
Einvaldurinn_mikli
12-07-06, 10:54 AM Okay, I'll go for minor shapeshift. Thank you.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Einvaldurinn_mikli 12-05-06, 01:36 PM	In a game I will be playing in shortly, I decided I wanted to play a Gish. A few days ago I purchased Tome of Battle: Book of nine Swords. And naturally, I wanted to combine the two. The game will be using a 31pt buy(strange value huh?) and starts at level two. Tiefling has been houseruled to LA +0(like it should be IMO) This is what I came up with so far: Race: Tiefling 1. Warblade Flaws: Murky Eyed, Shaky , Feats: Two Weapon fighting, Combat Expertise, Improved Intiative 2. Transmuter Scribe Scroll, Summon Familiar 3. Transmuter Practiced Spellcaster 4. Transmuter 5. Transmuter 6. Transmuter Feat: Steady Concentration,(substituted for Combat casting as a prereq for Abjurant Champ, ) Extend Spell 7.The Jade Phoenix Mage 8. The Jade Phoenix Mage 9. The Jade Phoenix Mage Empower Spell 10. Abjurant Champion 11. The Jade Phoenix Mage 12. The Jade Phoenix Mage ??? 13. Abjurant Champion 14. The Jade Phoenix Mage 15. The Jade Phoenix Mage Quicken Spell 16. The Jade Phoenix Mage 17. Abjurant Champion 18. Abjurant Champion Martial study(???) 19. The Jade Phoenix Mage 20. The Jade Phoenix Mage For starting stats I was thinking: Str 14(16?) 6-10 pts Dex 16 6pts Con 14 6pts Int 16(18?) Wis 8 0pts Cha 10 2pts(Cha penalty was waived) What should I raise? As for Disciplines and chosen schools, I think I'll go for a Transmuter specializing in Tiger Claw manuevers(for the TWF goodness found there) This gets me 17 bab, level 17 wizard casting and 7(??)th level manuevers. I want to TWF with a longsword and Dagger so if there are any TWF feats out there that I just can't miss out on please post them. I will have acess to the book. What are good feat, spell and manuever choices for me? Einvaldurinn_mikli
Daeger 12-05-06, 01:41 PM	I recommend you splash a level of Swordsage in. You'll thank yourself for it when you have things the Concentration replacements for saving throws as well as that 2nd level short range teleport power in Shadow Hand that you can just keep using over and over and over.
Rashomon 12-05-06, 02:17 PM	Warblade also gets Diamond Mind, he can get his save replacers from there instead.
grimreapercactus 12-05-06, 02:51 PM	Unless you are starting from first level and want the melee abilities right from the get-go, i'd recommend moving the warblade level higher (say, 5th), to give you access to 2nd level manuevers pre-Jade Pheonix. Since Initiator Level still increases (albeit at 1/2) with non-martial-adept classes, you can manipulate the placement of your martial levels to maximize the manuevers you get.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 12-05-06, 03:11 PM	I will be starting at second level and will need melee from the get go. Maybe I could use the retraining rules from PHB II to switch them out?
GaffeR 12-05-06, 03:14 PM	Don't you need to keep the same level "spell" that you swap from? Ugh, retraining.
Daeger 12-05-06, 03:14 PM	Sure, Warblades get Diamond Mind - but you have so very little readied slots, believe me. Swordsage is definitely an appreciated addition.
+1 Longsword 12-05-06, 03:31 PM	I think you're missing a 7th level. You can fit 1 more level of Abjurant Champion into the build.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 12-05-06, 03:40 PM	Sure, Warblades get Diamond Mind - but you have so very little readied slots, believe me. Swordsage is definitely an appreciated addition. But then I would lose ninth level spells(and a point of bab, but that is unimportant seeing as how I have 17), do you really think that's a fair trade? Because I sure don't. How about some good manuever choices?
neceros 12-05-06, 03:49 PM	But then I would lose ninth level spells(and a point of bab, but that is unimportant seeing as how I have 17), do you really think that's a fair trade? Because I sure don't. How about some good manuever choices? Every gish has to compromise somewhere. Would you rahter have spells or Meaneuvers? I'd go for the spells, personally, since meaneuvers return quickly and spells are only once a day.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 12-05-06, 03:54 PM	Every gish has to compromise somewhere. Would you rahter have spells or Meaneuvers? I'd go for the spells, personally, since meaneuvers return quickly and spells are only once a day. Yeah, compromise between ninth level spells or a few extra first level maneuvers? It's a given man.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 12-05-06, 04:49 PM	Anyone have any ideas about where I should put the remaining 5 ability points?
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 12-05-06, 06:07 PM	It would help to know what tother books you have access to for sugesting Feats.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 12-05-06, 06:26 PM	It would help to know what tother books you have access to for sugesting Feats. Almost every single one out there. My group has over a hundred books when we pool them.
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 12-05-06, 06:45 PM	Then if your Twfing as a Gish you need to look into Somatic weponry from Complete Mage, lets you actualy cast spells with a weapon in each hand. and Cresent moon Weapin style feat was made for Longsword/dagger parings. Its in complete warior. Take a look at reserve feats too. Only others Id sugest are the No-braners, Imp and grtr Twfing.
Endarire 12-06-06, 02:57 AM	How are you getting extra damage dice to make TWF viable? Rogues have sneak attack and rangers have favored enemies. I ask because I'm mostly unfamiliar with ToB. -EE
neceros 12-06-06, 02:59 AM	How are you getting extra damage dice to make TWF viable? Rogues have sneak attack and rangers have favored enemies. I ask because I'm mostly unfamiliar with ToB. -EE ToB breaks many, many 'known rules' when it comes to limits and optomizations. I love the book personally, but many see it as unbalancing. The maneuvers can become mind boggling, comparing to spells at times, and are all almost Ex.
Daeger 12-06-06, 03:07 AM	Sure, swordsage wouldn't be as good for long term. But for short term, it's definitely a good investment. If you're starting at level 2, for instance.
Daeger 12-06-06, 03:10 AM	ToB breaks many, many 'known rules' when it comes to limits and optomizations. I love the book personally, but many see it as unbalancing. The maneuvers can become mind boggling, comparing to spells at times, and are all almost Ex. I think the point of the book was to make melee comparable to spells.
neceros 12-06-06, 03:12 AM	I think the point of the book was to make melee comparable to spells. And I agree.
ressurrector 12-06-06, 03:18 AM	I'd second the suggestion to grab some reserve feats, for some big reasons. They do not provoke AoOs upon use They do not require an open hand or some such They do not suffer ASF, so wear all the armor you want. Also look into the polymorph one, it can give you some nice bonuses for a gish, as a swift action you can gain things like: +2 damage +5' speed Temp HP=HD (do this every round and give yourself what is essentially DR) The big decision in your build is going to be this: Are you primarily melee with casting to improve your melee prowess? or are you primarily a caster? If it's the first, invest heavily into reserve feats, sac spell levels into your JPM abilities, what few spells you do actually cast make stilled, and wear all the armor you want. If it's the latter, then focus your maneuver choices on those that will let you back up from combat and survive. Then beef your casting full bore. Just wondering, is your DM allowing the Abjurant Champions AC bonus effect to add onto Mage Armor/Greater MA?
neceros 12-06-06, 03:19 AM	I'd second the suggestion to grab some reserve feats, for some big reasons. They do not provoke AoOs upon use They do not require an open hand or some such They do not suffer ASF, so wear all the armor you want. Also look into the polymorph one, it can give you some nice bonuses for a gish, as a swift action you can gain things like: +2 damage +5' speed Temp HP=HD (do this every round and give yourself what is essentially DR) The big decision in your build is going to be this: Are you primarily melee with casting to improve your melee prowess? or are you primarily a caster? If it's the first, invest heavily into reserve feats, sac spell levels into your JPM abilities, what few spells you do actually cast make stilled, and wear all the armor you want. If it's the latter, then focus your maneuver choices on those that will let you back up from combat and survive. Then beef your casting full bore. Just wondering, is your DM allowing the Abjurant Champions AC bonus effect to add onto Mage Armor/Greater MA? Also, as supernatural abilities, they don't abide by spell resistance rules.
ressurrector 12-06-06, 03:21 AM	Also, as supernatural abilities, they don't abide by spell resistance rules. I thought SU abilities were affected by SR... Isn't that why Desert Wind strikes won't work inside an AMF?
neceros 12-06-06, 03:23 AM	I thought SU abilities were affected by SR... Isn't that why Desert Wind strikes won't work inside an AMF? Nope, supernatural is not affected by dispelling or Spell resistance. Anti Magic fields, however, supress anything magical. So yes, Su are still affected by AMF.
ressurrector 12-06-06, 04:55 AM	Nope, supernatural is not affected by dispelling or Spell resistance. Anti Magic fields, however, supress anything magical. So yes, Su are still affected by AMF. wow... eat your heart out warlock?
Einvaldurinn_mikli 12-06-06, 03:08 PM	I think that I will be mainly a front line warrior using spellcasting to augment my melee and give me a vast array of options. I will of course use the Arcane Wrath ability almost every turn('cept when I cast a quickened spell or abjuration). Any clue where I should put the remaining five ability points? Also, what should I throw out for reserve feats then?
ressurrector 12-06-06, 04:06 PM	I think that I will be mainly a front line warrior using spellcasting to augment my melee and give me a vast array of options. I will of course use the Arcane Wrath ability almost every turn('cept when I cast a quickened spell or abjuration). Any clue where I should put the remaining five ability points? Also, what should I throw out for reserve feats then? Your primary stats look like Con, Int, and Str. Not sure about the order, but these would be the ones to beef. Definitely take Minor Shapeshift, since you're a transmutation specialist. It's the best gish reserve feat. Dimensional Jaunt might be worthwile, std action to teleport 5' per level of prepared spell. For the others, decide if you need the minor blasting/buff/debuff powers they provide.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 12-07-06, 10:54 AM	Okay, I'll go for minor shapeshift. Thank you.