A True Disciple of the Dragon [Archive] - Wizards Community

A True Disciple of the Dragon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
FeceMan
11-07-05, 12:54 PM After looking over the Dragon Disciple PRC--and nearly retching in absolute disgust, what with the complete lack of caster progression--I have decided to create a character who has dragon's blood flowing through his veins but doesn't, you know, suck at magic.

This character is based on roleplay, mind you, not some kind of God-build that can destroy anything. However, I would appreciate any suggestions and/or constructive criticism in order to help me optimize this build.

Race: Human

(I suppose I could go as a Half-Dragon, but I dislike the level adjustment and the “cheap” factor that is thrown in. Also, it would render much of the [Draconic] feats useless ;).)

Primary Role: Caster.
Casting Class: Sorcerer.

(Since the stereotyped Sorcerer is one who boasts of having a draconic bloodline, I figured that a Sorcerer was more fit for this class than a Wizard.)

Secondary Role: Melee Combatant.
Fighting Class: Eldritch Knight.

(I’ll be using a combination of Fighter and Eldritch Knight to maintain a caster level of 18; any less than that and our beloved Sorcerer loses out on his precious ninth-level spells. That would be an ‘oh, noes’ moment.)

The build is as follows:

Fighter (1): Combat Casting, Power Attack (bonus feat), Improved Counterspell.
Fighter (1)/Sorcerer (1): Summon Familiar.
Fighter (1)/Sorcerer (2): Draconic Heritage.
Fighter (1)/Sorcerer (3): +1 Charisma.
Fighter (1)/Sorcerer (5): Draconic Breath.
Fighter (1)/Sorcerer (7): +1 Charisma.
Fighter (1)/Sorcerer (8): Dragon Familiar.
Fighter (1)/Sorcerer (8)/Spellsword (1): Ignore ASF 10%.
Fighter (1)/Sorcerer (8)/Spellsword (1)/ Eldritch Knight (1): Weapon Focus: Longsword (bonus feat).
Fighter (1)/Sorcerer (8)/Spellsword (1)/ Eldritch Knight (2): Dragon Claw, +1 Charisma.

Fighter (1)/Sorcerer (8)/Spellsword (1)/ Eldritch Knight (5): Draconic Skin.
Fighter (1)/Sorcerer (8)/Spellsword (1)/ Eldritch Knight (8): Spell penetration.
Fighter (1)/Sorcerer (8)/Spellsword (1)/ Eldritch Knight (10): +1 Charisma.

Overall BAB: +16
Overall saves: +13/+5/+11

(Huzzah. Any suggestions regarding this build are welcome. However, I’m torn between this character’s draconic heritage, so, which are better: line spells or cone spells? I’m leaning towards cone and picking Silver as his heritage. Also, the Fighter bonus feats prove to be an ‘eh’ addition, as his taking some good ones early on is precluded by his low BAB and gish-dispersed stats.)
aod318
11-07-05, 02:03 PM "White Dragonspawn is widely recognized to be an excellent LA +1 template for sorcs."
ninjarabbit
11-07-05, 03:26 PM It may not what you are looking for but the battlesorcerer from Unearthed Arcana has a d8 hit dice, light armor casting, and 3/4 BAB in exchange for one less spell known per level and one less spell per day per level. This way you can start taking draconic feats from level 1 and not lose hps overall.

Otherwise I'd go battlesorcerer8/fighter1/spellsword1/eldritchknight10 for BAB 18 and CL 18
FeceMan
11-07-05, 03:53 PM It may not what you are looking for but the battlesorcerer from Unearthed Arcana has a d8 hit dice, light armor casting, and 3/4 BAB in exchange for one less spell known per level and one less spell per day per level. This way you can start taking draconic feats from level 1 and not lose hps overall.

Otherwise I'd go battlesorcerer8/fighter1/spellsword1/eldritchknight10 for BAB 18 and CL 18
*Nods.*

I was considering this, but my GM does not like Unearthed Arcana very much at all. So blech.

Can anyone link me some info for dragonspawn?
FeceMan
11-07-05, 04:34 PM Double-post (eep!)

Remember: the goal of this character is to create one similar to the Dragon Disciple without the gimpiness. He gradually "discovers" his draconic abilities and becomes a dragon in likeness as time passes. I'm not sure how dragonspawn work with this idea.
PonTelon
11-07-05, 04:59 PM Just as a heads up, Dragon Breath feat is pretty much useless at higher levels, but kicks A-hole at low levels. I'd take Heritage and it at first level. Check my sig for Son of Dragons 20 level build who takes an unique look at a sorcerer discovering their dracconic heritage by eventually becoming one. It might spawn some ideas for you. =)

Good luck.
catharz
11-07-05, 05:00 PM Take a look at the breath weapon spells and feats in Draconomicon, they can actually work pretty well with Draconic Breath.

Also, there are sone good Dragon Disciple builds. Secondary casters, but still kick-ass.
FeceMan
11-07-05, 08:28 PM Just as a heads up, Dragon Breath feat is pretty much useless at higher levels, but kicks A-hole at low levels. I'd take Heritage and it at first level. Check my sig for Son of Dragons 20 level build who takes an unique look at a sorcerer discovering their dracconic heritage by eventually becoming one. It might spawn some ideas for you. =)

Good luck.
I had originally planned on taking Master Transmorgifist, but they lose three caster levels, which makes me sad. So no dice with that build, but I'll still look for ideas :). Also, I cannot take Draconic Heritage at first level, since I will be a Fighter :(.
20goingon1232
11-07-05, 09:03 PM Well, If you don't mind the LA or can buy it off, Aasimar or one of the Genasis (maybe), would give you the Martial Weapon Prof to get into EldKn (for being Outsider, as all Outsiders get all Simple and Martial profs).

I don't know the SpellSword thing, so I can't say, but a 1 level dip in Dragonslayer (from Dragonomicon) might help in the Immune Fear, full caster level, fighter BAB, bigger HD. Again, I don't have that book, but I have heard of the PrC.
PonTelon
11-07-05, 09:39 PM I had originally planned on taking Master Transmorgifist, but they lose three caster levels, which makes me sad. So no dice with that build, but I'll still look for ideas :). Also, I cannot take Draconic Heritage at first level, since I will be a Fighter :(.
Is there any reason you are doing Fighter at level 1? Seems kinda silly to me, but I'm sure you have your reason. Just curious at to what that reason is.
FeceMan
11-08-05, 10:20 AM Is there any reason you are doing Fighter at level 1? Seems kinda silly to me, but I'm sure you have your reason. Just curious at to what that reason is.
I need it for the proficiencies in martial weapons and armor. Spellsword = required proficiences in both, Eldritch Knight = proficiencies in all martial weapons.

Can anyone link me to information on dragonspawn? I was looking through the Draconomicon and it only had suggestions for playing as a dragon.

(You know, the descriptions and habits of the dragons are really fascinating to read. I really, really like the Silver and Blue dragons, though the Bronze's sense of justice piqued my interest :). Gold and Brass dragons have ugly wings, though...which makes me sad :(.)
PonTelon
11-08-05, 11:56 AM I need it for the proficiencies in martial weapons and armor. Spellsword = required proficiences in both, Eldritch Knight = proficiencies in all martial weapons.

Yes...that is why you are taking a level in Fighter, but that isn't a reason to take it at first level over Sorcerer. The only reason I could think of would be for 4 more HP(max HP at 1st level). But I'd much rather increase my damage output by crazy amounts with Dracconic Heritage>Breath. 4 HP isn't that big of a deal. That is one hit from a dagger with Str 14.(Average damage). If you had Dragon Breath, then they would be dead before they could get close enough to dagger you. =)
Khazra Reborn
11-08-05, 12:26 PM Can anyone link me some info for dragonspawn?
I don't have a link to it but its in the dragonlance campaign setting, it has small stat bonuses to cha/con, a fly speed, natural armour...and 1 level of sorcerer casting :eek: . Not so good for gishes as you lose a point of BaB. If you can buy off LA, it is (arguably) the most insane template around.
I have a suggestion for you and that is to take the phantom knight instead of EK. Its far better due to higher HD, having some abilities and being able to cast in light armour (which can be augumented by the battlecaster feat in CA). To fit with the PK's flavour, i would take shadow dragon heritage if available (although, for obvious reasons not in conjunction with white dragonspawn).
Im sorry, but dragon claw is a really poor feat in my opinion.

So i'd suggest:
white dragonspawn (la buyoff) battle sorcerer10*/PK10
*gets martial weapon proficiency through militia feat from PGtF.
17BaB & 20th level casting makes for an awesome gish, regardless of the feats you choose to take.

Lastly, although its not great in most builds, if you go epic, 10 levels of Dragon Disciple is awesome on a gish! 7 extra 9th level spells per day, stat bonusese, natural armour bonuses & a D12 HD are not to be sniffed at.
FeceMan
11-08-05, 05:41 PM I don't have a link to it but its in the dragonlance campaign setting, it has small stat bonuses to cha/con, a fly speed, natural armour...and 1 level of sorcerer casting :eek: . Not so good for gishes as you lose a point of BaB. If you can buy off LA, it is (arguably) the most insane template around.
I have a suggestion for you and that is to take the phantom knight instead of EK. Its far better due to higher HD, having some abilities and being able to cast in light armour (which can be augumented by the battlecaster feat in CA). To fit with the PK's flavour, i would take shadow dragon heritage if available (although, for obvious reasons not in conjunction with white dragonspawn).
Im sorry, but dragon claw is a really poor feat in my opinion.

So i'd suggest:
white dragonspawn (la buyoff) battle sorcerer10*/PK10
*gets martial weapon proficiency through militia feat from PGtF.
17BaB & 20th level casting makes for an awesome gish, regardless of the feats you choose to take.

Lastly, although its not great in most builds, if you go epic, 10 levels of Dragon Disciple is awesome on a gish! 7 extra 9th level spells per day, stat bonusese, natural armour bonuses & a D12 HD are not to be sniffed at.
How exactly do you do LA buyoff?

Thank you for the information, though :).

However, assuming I'm not going epic and this is just a twenty level build, I'm going to have many of the bonuses offered by the Dragon Disciple (claws, breath weapon) before that time. I'm not sure if those stack or what.
FeceMan
11-08-05, 10:14 PM Unfortunately, Phantom Knight loses one casting level :(. And I'm afraid that it wouldn't work with my dragon concept so well... Also, I would have to sacrifice a spell slot for Phantom Steed; I don't know how great that is.

(Can anyone post me a link with the Dragonspawn?)

(Oh, derpiderpiderp...would the +1 Sorc level from Dragonspawn balance out the Phantom Steed loss of a caster level?)
incubus
11-09-05, 12:54 AM Just a response to the initial post:

Normal dragons have far more hit dice than caster levels. So the DD isn't entirely undragon-like. In fact, to my mind, the only thing it really needs changed is for the 1/day breath weapon to be changed to have a recharge of 1d4+1 rounds like real dragon breath.
Tempest Stormwind
11-09-05, 03:51 AM To add on Catharz' post, note that with Draconic Breath and the Dragon Breath spell, you can now cast the otherwise dragon-only Breath Component spells, and take Metabreath feats, from the Draconomicon.

Furthermore, Phantom Steed isn't the cost of going in to Knight Phantom (since it's a great spell and could easily be described as a shadowy mist dragon). The cost is Still Spell.
FeceMan
11-09-05, 09:23 AM Just a response to the initial post:

Normal dragons have far more hit dice than caster levels. So the DD isn't entirely undragon-like. In fact, to my mind, the only thing it really needs changed is for the 1/day breath weapon to be changed to have a recharge of 1d4+1 rounds like real dragon breath.
I do understand this, but why have a character with mediocre combat skills and poor magical ability when you can have a character with above average combat skills and strong magical ability?

:)
Fwib
11-09-05, 06:02 PM Dragons (for their HD) have strong combat and weak spellcasting.
FeceMan
11-10-05, 02:14 PM Dragons (for their HD) have strong combat and weak spellcasting.
This is true. See my above post for clarification.
Khazra Reborn
11-10-05, 02:39 PM Oh, derpiderpiderp...would the +1 Sorc level from Dragonspawn balance out the Phantom Steed loss of a caster level?)
thats kind of the point of my build. It losese nothing by taking PK ecept the need for still spell. If you want your feats EK would do though.
ChrisAsmadi
11-10-05, 02:48 PM I need it for the proficiencies in martial weapons and armor. Spellsword = required proficiences in both, Eldritch Knight = proficiencies in all martial weapons.

Can anyone link me to information on dragonspawn? I was looking through the Draconomicon and it only had suggestions for playing as a dragon.

(You know, the descriptions and habits of the dragons are really fascinating to read. I really, really like the Silver and Blue dragons, though the Bronze's sense of justice piqued my interest :). Gold and Brass dragons have ugly wings, though...which makes me sad :(.)

As suggested, Dragonslayer(it grants weapon profs...) could replace the fighter level, if you're willing to trade a bonus feat for a caster level and immune to fear.
FeceMan
11-13-05, 02:21 PM Okay, I talked with my DM and he said that Battle Sorcerer would be okay. Which makes me happy. This then leads to two variations of the build I'm considering: one has his martial weapon as a Greatsword or some other two-handed weapon while the other uses a one-handed weapon (probably a longsword). With one-handed weapon character, I would be doing my best to take Spellsword so I could use a shield without ASF; I would not be doing so with the two-handed weapon character.

Any suggestions for that? (I'll be reworking the character build based off of that.)
ninjarabbit
11-13-05, 02:34 PM For a shield just use an animated shield.
Lafing Cat
11-13-05, 03:43 PM In 3.5 Animated Shields still incur all the normal penalties associated with shield use, noteably in this case, ASF.
Sang-Drax
11-13-05, 04:16 PM Okay, I talked with my DM and he said that Battle Sorcerer would be okay. Which makes me happy. This then leads to two variations of the build I'm considering: one has his martial weapon as a Greatsword or some other two-handed weapon while the other uses a one-handed weapon (probably a longsword). With one-handed weapon character, I would be doing my best to take Spellsword so I could use a shield without ASF; I would not be doing so with the two-handed weapon character.

Any suggestions for that? (I'll be reworking the character build based off of that.)

I would suggest dropping Battlesorcerer, if you plan to play the role of caster. The loss of a spell known and a spell per day per level is quite a major hit... personally, I think Battlesorcerer is not a good deal, unless you're really restricted on books - say, a core + UA only campaign. Otherwise, stick to sorcerer... I played with a battlesorcerer once, and it's so not worth it.
FeceMan
11-13-05, 07:52 PM I would suggest dropping Battlesorcerer, if you plan to play the role of caster. The loss of a spell known and a spell per day per level is quite a major hit... personally, I think Battlesorcerer is not a good deal, unless you're really restricted on books - say, a core + UA only campaign. Otherwise, stick to sorcerer... I played with a battlesorcerer once, and it's so not worth it.
Yes, I was talking with a friend of mine and we were discussing this. However, I plan to do a bit of melee fighting and having roughly twice the hitpoints of a normal Sorcerer plus no ASF for light armor whatsoever is helpful. I'm kinda torn between the two, right down the middle, to be honest :).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FeceMan 11-07-05, 12:54 PM	After looking over the Dragon Disciple PRC--and nearly retching in absolute disgust, what with the complete lack of caster progression--I have decided to create a character who has dragon's blood flowing through his veins but doesn't, you know, suck at magic. This character is based on roleplay, mind you, not some kind of God-build that can destroy anything. However, I would appreciate any suggestions and/or constructive criticism in order to help me optimize this build. Race: Human (I suppose I could go as a Half-Dragon, but I dislike the level adjustment and the “cheap” factor that is thrown in. Also, it would render much of the [Draconic] feats useless ;).) Primary Role: Caster. Casting Class: Sorcerer. (Since the stereotyped Sorcerer is one who boasts of having a draconic bloodline, I figured that a Sorcerer was more fit for this class than a Wizard.) Secondary Role: Melee Combatant. Fighting Class: Eldritch Knight. (I’ll be using a combination of Fighter and Eldritch Knight to maintain a caster level of 18; any less than that and our beloved Sorcerer loses out on his precious ninth-level spells. That would be an ‘oh, noes’ moment.) The build is as follows: Fighter (1): Combat Casting, Power Attack (bonus feat), Improved Counterspell. Fighter (1)/Sorcerer (1): Summon Familiar. Fighter (1)/Sorcerer (2): Draconic Heritage. Fighter (1)/Sorcerer (3): +1 Charisma. Fighter (1)/Sorcerer (5): Draconic Breath. Fighter (1)/Sorcerer (7): +1 Charisma. Fighter (1)/Sorcerer (8): Dragon Familiar. Fighter (1)/Sorcerer (8)/Spellsword (1): Ignore ASF 10%. Fighter (1)/Sorcerer (8)/Spellsword (1)/ Eldritch Knight (1): Weapon Focus: Longsword (bonus feat). Fighter (1)/Sorcerer (8)/Spellsword (1)/ Eldritch Knight (2): Dragon Claw, +1 Charisma. Fighter (1)/Sorcerer (8)/Spellsword (1)/ Eldritch Knight (5): Draconic Skin. Fighter (1)/Sorcerer (8)/Spellsword (1)/ Eldritch Knight (8): Spell penetration. Fighter (1)/Sorcerer (8)/Spellsword (1)/ Eldritch Knight (10): +1 Charisma. Overall BAB: +16 Overall saves: +13/+5/+11 (Huzzah. Any suggestions regarding this build are welcome. However, I’m torn between this character’s draconic heritage, so, which are better: line spells or cone spells? I’m leaning towards cone and picking Silver as his heritage. Also, the Fighter bonus feats prove to be an ‘eh’ addition, as his taking some good ones early on is precluded by his low BAB and gish-dispersed stats.)
aod318 11-07-05, 02:03 PM	"White Dragonspawn is widely recognized to be an excellent LA +1 template for sorcs."
ninjarabbit 11-07-05, 03:26 PM	It may not what you are looking for but the battlesorcerer from Unearthed Arcana has a d8 hit dice, light armor casting, and 3/4 BAB in exchange for one less spell known per level and one less spell per day per level. This way you can start taking draconic feats from level 1 and not lose hps overall. Otherwise I'd go battlesorcerer8/fighter1/spellsword1/eldritchknight10 for BAB 18 and CL 18
FeceMan 11-07-05, 03:53 PM	It may not what you are looking for but the battlesorcerer from Unearthed Arcana has a d8 hit dice, light armor casting, and 3/4 BAB in exchange for one less spell known per level and one less spell per day per level. This way you can start taking draconic feats from level 1 and not lose hps overall. Otherwise I'd go battlesorcerer8/fighter1/spellsword1/eldritchknight10 for BAB 18 and CL 18 Nods. I was considering this, but my GM does not like Unearthed Arcana very much at all. So blech. Can anyone link me some info for dragonspawn?
FeceMan 11-07-05, 04:34 PM	Double-post (eep!) Remember: the goal of this character is to create one similar to the Dragon Disciple without the gimpiness. He gradually "discovers" his draconic abilities and becomes a dragon in likeness as time passes. I'm not sure how dragonspawn work with this idea.
PonTelon 11-07-05, 04:59 PM	Just as a heads up, Dragon Breath feat is pretty much useless at higher levels, but kicks A-hole at low levels. I'd take Heritage and it at first level. Check my sig for Son of Dragons 20 level build who takes an unique look at a sorcerer discovering their dracconic heritage by eventually becoming one. It might spawn some ideas for you. =) Good luck.
catharz 11-07-05, 05:00 PM	Take a look at the breath weapon spells and feats in Draconomicon, they can actually work pretty well with Draconic Breath. Also, there are sone good Dragon Disciple builds. Secondary casters, but still kick-ass.
FeceMan 11-07-05, 08:28 PM	Just as a heads up, Dragon Breath feat is pretty much useless at higher levels, but kicks A-hole at low levels. I'd take Heritage and it at first level. Check my sig for Son of Dragons 20 level build who takes an unique look at a sorcerer discovering their dracconic heritage by eventually becoming one. It might spawn some ideas for you. =) Good luck. I had originally planned on taking Master Transmorgifist, but they lose three caster levels, which makes me sad. So no dice with that build, but I'll still look for ideas :). Also, I cannot take Draconic Heritage at first level, since I will be a Fighter :(.
20goingon1232 11-07-05, 09:03 PM	Well, If you don't mind the LA or can buy it off, Aasimar or one of the Genasis (maybe), would give you the Martial Weapon Prof to get into EldKn (for being Outsider, as all Outsiders get all Simple and Martial profs). I don't know the SpellSword thing, so I can't say, but a 1 level dip in Dragonslayer (from Dragonomicon) might help in the Immune Fear, full caster level, fighter BAB, bigger HD. Again, I don't have that book, but I have heard of the PrC.
PonTelon 11-07-05, 09:39 PM	I had originally planned on taking Master Transmorgifist, but they lose three caster levels, which makes me sad. So no dice with that build, but I'll still look for ideas :). Also, I cannot take Draconic Heritage at first level, since I will be a Fighter :(. Is there any reason you are doing Fighter at level 1? Seems kinda silly to me, but I'm sure you have your reason. Just curious at to what that reason is.
FeceMan 11-08-05, 10:20 AM	Is there any reason you are doing Fighter at level 1? Seems kinda silly to me, but I'm sure you have your reason. Just curious at to what that reason is. I need it for the proficiencies in martial weapons and armor. Spellsword = required proficiences in both, Eldritch Knight = proficiencies in all martial weapons. Can anyone link me to information on dragonspawn? I was looking through the Draconomicon and it only had suggestions for playing as a dragon. (You know, the descriptions and habits of the dragons are really fascinating to read. I really, really like the Silver and Blue dragons, though the Bronze's sense of justice piqued my interest :). Gold and Brass dragons have ugly wings, though...which makes me sad :(.)
PonTelon 11-08-05, 11:56 AM	I need it for the proficiencies in martial weapons and armor. Spellsword = required proficiences in both, Eldritch Knight = proficiencies in all martial weapons. Yes...that is why you are taking a level in Fighter, but that isn't a reason to take it at first level over Sorcerer. The only reason I could think of would be for 4 more HP(max HP at 1st level). But I'd much rather increase my damage output by crazy amounts with Dracconic Heritage>Breath. 4 HP isn't that big of a deal. That is one hit from a dagger with Str 14.(Average damage). If you had Dragon Breath, then they would be dead before they could get close enough to dagger you. =)
Khazra Reborn 11-08-05, 12:26 PM	Can anyone link me some info for dragonspawn? I don't have a link to it but its in the dragonlance campaign setting, it has small stat bonuses to cha/con, a fly speed, natural armour...and 1 level of sorcerer casting :eek: . Not so good for gishes as you lose a point of BaB. If you can buy off LA, it is (arguably) the most insane template around. I have a suggestion for you and that is to take the phantom knight instead of EK. Its far better due to higher HD, having some abilities and being able to cast in light armour (which can be augumented by the battlecaster feat in CA). To fit with the PK's flavour, i would take shadow dragon heritage if available (although, for obvious reasons not in conjunction with white dragonspawn). Im sorry, but dragon claw is a really poor feat in my opinion. So i'd suggest: white dragonspawn (la buyoff) battle sorcerer10/PK10 gets martial weapon proficiency through militia feat from PGtF. 17BaB & 20th level casting makes for an awesome gish, regardless of the feats you choose to take. Lastly, although its not great in most builds, if you go epic, 10 levels of Dragon Disciple is awesome on a gish! 7 extra 9th level spells per day, stat bonusese, natural armour bonuses & a D12 HD are not to be sniffed at.
FeceMan 11-08-05, 05:41 PM	I don't have a link to it but its in the dragonlance campaign setting, it has small stat bonuses to cha/con, a fly speed, natural armour...and 1 level of sorcerer casting :eek: . Not so good for gishes as you lose a point of BaB. If you can buy off LA, it is (arguably) the most insane template around. I have a suggestion for you and that is to take the phantom knight instead of EK. Its far better due to higher HD, having some abilities and being able to cast in light armour (which can be augumented by the battlecaster feat in CA). To fit with the PK's flavour, i would take shadow dragon heritage if available (although, for obvious reasons not in conjunction with white dragonspawn). Im sorry, but dragon claw is a really poor feat in my opinion. So i'd suggest: white dragonspawn (la buyoff) battle sorcerer10/PK10 gets martial weapon proficiency through militia feat from PGtF. 17BaB & 20th level casting makes for an awesome gish, regardless of the feats you choose to take. Lastly, although its not great in most builds, if you go epic, 10 levels of Dragon Disciple is awesome on a gish! 7 extra 9th level spells per day, stat bonusese, natural armour bonuses & a D12 HD are not to be sniffed at. How exactly do you do LA buyoff? Thank you for the information, though :). However, assuming I'm not going epic and this is just a twenty level build, I'm going to have many of the bonuses offered by the Dragon Disciple (claws, breath weapon) before that time. I'm not sure if those stack or what.
FeceMan 11-08-05, 10:14 PM	Unfortunately, Phantom Knight loses one casting level :(. And I'm afraid that it wouldn't work with my dragon concept so well... Also, I would have to sacrifice a spell slot for Phantom Steed; I don't know how great that is. (Can anyone post me a link with the Dragonspawn?) (Oh, derpiderpiderp...would the +1 Sorc level from Dragonspawn balance out the Phantom Steed loss of a caster level?)
incubus 11-09-05, 12:54 AM	Just a response to the initial post: Normal dragons have far more hit dice than caster levels. So the DD isn't entirely undragon-like. In fact, to my mind, the only thing it really needs changed is for the 1/day breath weapon to be changed to have a recharge of 1d4+1 rounds like real dragon breath.
Tempest Stormwind 11-09-05, 03:51 AM	To add on Catharz' post, note that with Draconic Breath and the Dragon Breath spell, you can now cast the otherwise dragon-only Breath Component spells, and take Metabreath feats, from the Draconomicon. Furthermore, Phantom Steed isn't the cost of going in to Knight Phantom (since it's a great spell and could easily be described as a shadowy mist dragon). The cost is Still Spell.
FeceMan 11-09-05, 09:23 AM	Just a response to the initial post: Normal dragons have far more hit dice than caster levels. So the DD isn't entirely undragon-like. In fact, to my mind, the only thing it really needs changed is for the 1/day breath weapon to be changed to have a recharge of 1d4+1 rounds like real dragon breath. I do understand this, but why have a character with mediocre combat skills and poor magical ability when you can have a character with above average combat skills and strong magical ability? :)
Fwib 11-09-05, 06:02 PM	Dragons (for their HD) have strong combat and weak spellcasting.
FeceMan 11-10-05, 02:14 PM	Dragons (for their HD) have strong combat and weak spellcasting. This is true. See my above post for clarification.
Khazra Reborn 11-10-05, 02:39 PM	Oh, derpiderpiderp...would the +1 Sorc level from Dragonspawn balance out the Phantom Steed loss of a caster level?) thats kind of the point of my build. It losese nothing by taking PK ecept the need for still spell. If you want your feats EK would do though.
ChrisAsmadi 11-10-05, 02:48 PM	I need it for the proficiencies in martial weapons and armor. Spellsword = required proficiences in both, Eldritch Knight = proficiencies in all martial weapons. Can anyone link me to information on dragonspawn? I was looking through the Draconomicon and it only had suggestions for playing as a dragon. (You know, the descriptions and habits of the dragons are really fascinating to read. I really, really like the Silver and Blue dragons, though the Bronze's sense of justice piqued my interest :). Gold and Brass dragons have ugly wings, though...which makes me sad :(.) As suggested, Dragonslayer(it grants weapon profs...) could replace the fighter level, if you're willing to trade a bonus feat for a caster level and immune to fear.
FeceMan 11-13-05, 02:21 PM	Okay, I talked with my DM and he said that Battle Sorcerer would be okay. Which makes me happy. This then leads to two variations of the build I'm considering: one has his martial weapon as a Greatsword or some other two-handed weapon while the other uses a one-handed weapon (probably a longsword). With one-handed weapon character, I would be doing my best to take Spellsword so I could use a shield without ASF; I would not be doing so with the two-handed weapon character. Any suggestions for that? (I'll be reworking the character build based off of that.)
ninjarabbit 11-13-05, 02:34 PM	For a shield just use an animated shield.
Lafing Cat 11-13-05, 03:43 PM	In 3.5 Animated Shields still incur all the normal penalties associated with shield use, noteably in this case, ASF.
Sang-Drax 11-13-05, 04:16 PM	Okay, I talked with my DM and he said that Battle Sorcerer would be okay. Which makes me happy. This then leads to two variations of the build I'm considering: one has his martial weapon as a Greatsword or some other two-handed weapon while the other uses a one-handed weapon (probably a longsword). With one-handed weapon character, I would be doing my best to take Spellsword so I could use a shield without ASF; I would not be doing so with the two-handed weapon character. Any suggestions for that? (I'll be reworking the character build based off of that.) I would suggest dropping Battlesorcerer, if you plan to play the role of caster. The loss of a spell known and a spell per day per level is quite a major hit... personally, I think Battlesorcerer is not a good deal, unless you're really restricted on books - say, a core + UA only campaign. Otherwise, stick to sorcerer... I played with a battlesorcerer once, and it's so not worth it.
FeceMan 11-13-05, 07:52 PM	I would suggest dropping Battlesorcerer, if you plan to play the role of caster. The loss of a spell known and a spell per day per level is quite a major hit... personally, I think Battlesorcerer is not a good deal, unless you're really restricted on books - say, a core + UA only campaign. Otherwise, stick to sorcerer... I played with a battlesorcerer once, and it's so not worth it. Yes, I was talking with a friend of mine and we were discussing this. However, I plan to do a bit of melee fighting and having roughly twice the hitpoints of a normal Sorcerer plus no ASF for light armor whatsoever is helpful. I'm kinda torn between the two, right down the middle, to be honest :).