Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rsweeney 07-31-05, 03:19 PM	I would like to see what you very intelligent and creative rules-mongers can do with creating a leader. Essentially, instead of building someone who can break the earth and rebuild the heavens.. what about someone who focuses on using leadership, cohorts, animal companions, special mounts, or familiars intelligently. My basic understanding is that with a high enough leadership score you can create a character with a cohort. It is my understanding that taking leadership again gains you another cohort. It then seems to me that a team of (your level-2) cohorts might be fun.
Siduakal 07-31-05, 03:36 PM	Sorcerer 20 (Yes, not Wizard) Feats: Whatever you want, but blend in Leadership NO FAMILIAR Base 18 Cha. Bump in all 5 levels to cha for a 23. Buy a +5 Tome for 28.. A +6 Item for 34 So a +12 Cha Mod and 20 levels for a Leadership Score of 32. Now buy a base of operations. (For that +2 to Leadership for follower stats) Now... Cohort Level: 17th (You have a leadership score of 32, but the table goes up to 25+.. I'd rule it to be 18th or 19th).. Make sure to get a fighter-sort to protect you. Shield user preferred. Followers by level: 135 1st Level, 13 2nd Level, 7 3rd Level, 4 4th Level, 2 5th Level, 2 6th Level That's as high as it goes.. 32 is far over the mod.. -shrug- may as well get a familiar, actually. The -2 to Cohort score only puts you down to 30.. won't hurt any..
~Black Knight~ 07-31-05, 04:00 PM	Why sorcerer? A marshal would make a far better leader.
Urnsk 07-31-05, 04:01 PM	That's as high as it gets? Are you kidding me? An Orc Horde Leader with the Extra Followers feat gets three times as many followers as that. What's more, there are strategies for making use of that many first-sixth level barbarians, fighter-barbarians, wizards, clerics, marshals, bards, and rogues. It's not just a cut-and-dry set up. How do you protect those hundreds of followers. Do you bother do? What about an Illithid Savant, pre-epic, who has sucked out the Epic Leadership feat? I've seen some pretty sick builds out there, and rarely seen a simple, tweakless build suggest the audacity that it was "As high as it goes."
rsweeney 07-31-05, 04:53 PM	Sorcerer 20 (Yes, not Wizard) Feats: Whatever you want, but blend in Leadership NO FAMILIAR Base 18 Cha. Bump in all 5 levels to cha for a 23. Buy a +5 Tome for 28.. A +6 Item for 34 So a +12 Cha Mod and 20 levels for a Leadership Score of 32. Now buy a base of operations. (For that +2 to Leadership for follower stats) Now... Cohort Level: 17th (You have a leadership score of 32, but the table goes up to 25+.. I'd rule it to be 18th or 19th).. Make sure to get a fighter-sort to protect you. Shield user preferred. Followers by level: 135 1st Level, 13 2nd Level, 7 3rd Level, 4 4th Level, 2 5th Level, 2 6th Level That's as high as it goes.. 32 is far over the mod.. -shrug- may as well get a familiar, actually. The -2 to Cohort score only puts you down to 30.. won't hurt any.. Now, that does seem to work. Simple and to the point. As a core class suggestion, the sorcerer does seem to be nicely outfitted for trying to have a bunch of followers by virtue of motivations for high stats. Our sorcerer would be a sorcerer-king who has taken land, established himself with lordly title, and gathered peasents under his banner. The followers would be ideally suited to protect his keep but sorcerers are unlikely to draw flocks of sorcerers in training. Sorcerers don't need training. The lack of a familiar isn't really all that important, however, because it only affects the level of the cohort which is capped at your level-2. I believe you've long exceeded that with your sorcerer. That of course begs the question of a druid. A druid would gain an animal companion who is quite powerful at 20th level in addition to the cohort(s) from leadership feats. Of course, a druid has no class-related reason for an ungodly high charisma score other than animal empathy. Focusing on a high Cha makes our druid suffer for lack of a high Wis. Wis determines the DC of saves for his spells. The druid would be sacrificing to concentrate so much resources on CHA instead of WIS. But, would he be sitting prettier than the Sorcerer if he did?
rsweeney 07-31-05, 05:03 PM	That's as high as it gets? Are you kidding me? An Orc Horde Leader with the Extra Followers feat gets three times as many followers as that. What's more, there are strategies for making use of that many first-sixth level barbarians, fighter-barbarians, wizards, clerics, marshals, bards, and rogues. It's not just a cut-and-dry set up. How do you protect those hundreds of followers. Do you bother do? What about an Illithid Savant, pre-epic, who has sucked out the Epic Leadership feat? I've seen some pretty sick builds out there, and rarely seen a simple, tweakless build suggest the audacity that it was "As high as it goes." Oh, I guess everything needs limits. I'm thinking about not using Epic material. Something before Epic feats, 20th level.. I suppose. Where does the Extra Followers feat come from, if you don't mind my asking? I'm not aware of that one, but it is certainly appropriate. Where does the Orc Horde Leader come from? I think I recognize Illithid Savant as either a Psionic or Savage Species sort of thing. I'm guessing Orc Horde Leader is from Complete Warrior, but I've looked over that and I don't remember seeing an Orc Horde Leader. The warmaster class from Sword and Fist seems appropriate. They gain bonuses to their leadership score and an establishment. Of course, with leadership capping the level of your cohort, it isn't a direct race for the highest leadership score.. but more of a search for the cool builds that make use of it. First, I need to ask about a few rules. Does an item you wear increase your Charisma modifier for leadership? If you ever took it off, your score would drop.. and your followers would leave. Wouldn't you need some non-slot item that functions so long as you own it. Orb of Leadership (+6 charisma, slotless item x2 cost) Would a circlet of persuasion which gives you a +3 to charisma checks affect your leadership score? I should think not, but I wonder. Would it be possible to craft an item to grant a bonus to your leadership score? Not a charisma bonus, but a bonus to leadership? (I don't think this exists in the rules anywyere). By the Book of Vile Darkness, you could have a demon-possessing a evil character to grant +4 profane bonus to Chr. That would help with leadership score. Having a demon-spirit ally would also qualify as an unusual power, right? Rules... Can your cohort have the leadership feat? Can your followers have the leadership feat? I don't see any reason why they cannot.
rsweeney 07-31-05, 05:24 PM	There are certain easily-imagined iconic leaders... Fighters.. Paladins.. Clerics.. Wizards.. Rogues.. Fighters and Paladins would have castles and keeps with many peasents in addition to their loyal followers. Of the two, it seems more likely that the paladin will have a high charisma. A cleric (or druid) may have some motivation for a high charisma, but will need a 19 wisdom to cast their most powerful spells. That would be a +6 item with a 13 stat, but focusing on the stat other than their spellcasting one lowers the DC they could have had with saves against their spells. Clerics and Paladins have the added motivation of religion, which is handy when controlling large numbers of people. Organizing followers, that would be the hard part. Paladins and Clerics would be expected to use religious dogma to make that easier. Wizard schools could draw a large dedicated following of student wizards, producing alchemical goods to keep the school afloat financially. Organization would be based on not wanting to get kicked out of school. Thieves guilds are also common and iconic run by profit and fear of the leader rogue. They are harder to control, however, since individual profit is the reason for their existance. I suppose some attention would need to be paid to the iconic appeal of the type of followers and how they would be used by a character who is also going on quests and actively adventuring.
catharz 07-31-05, 06:10 PM	Dragon Rider [DLCS] coupled with Dragon cohort [Drc] makes for just about the best cohort out there. Be an Orc and grab the Orc Leadership feats and PrC. Grab Undead leadership too. Have a Thrallherd cohort. Give your dragon cohort Leadership too, if possible, and watch an infinite power loop develop. Have all of your undead cohorts be Fine-sized, and have the Aid Another.
Borin 07-31-05, 06:31 PM	My basic understanding is that with a high enough leadership score you can create a character with a cohort. It is my understanding that taking leadership again gains you another cohort. It then seems to me that a team of (your level-2) cohorts might be fun. You can't take Leadership more than once, if that is what you meant. Only feats that specifically state they can be taken more than once can be taken more than once :) Other options: Thrallherd from the Expanded PsiHB, which gives 2 cohorts (-1lvl and -2lvls) and followers, and allows you to pick up a new set in 24 hours unlike normal Leadership. Undead Leadership from Libris Mortis doesn't say you can't have normal Leadership as well, but the text seems to imply it.
Funny Slaughter 08-01-05, 02:53 AM	take a look at my evil leader, cleric section, build faq. 3 cohorts. gs Funny
Wellby the Fountain 08-01-05, 03:39 AM	i believe your leadership score goes up if you have a stronghold, if you are especially well known, etc, etc.... if you really want to lead an army, make sure your cohort and the rest of your followers that meet the prerequisits take leadership as well.... figure out what followers they have, and assign leadership to those people who qualify..... on and on. sure the level of followers goes down each time its removed from you, but you'll have a ton of them. and take that Prestige Class in the DMG that gives you a planar cohort for some extra goodies.
Urnsk 08-01-05, 03:51 AM	Getting your leadership score past 25, pre-epic, is pretty pointless. I mean, really. You get no further benefits. Your cohort doesn't improve, you don't get any more followers, and the followers you have don't get any better. As a stage for *EPIC*, then yeah: it has a lot of merrit. For normal play, though, it's pretty pointless.
DodgerJPS 08-01-05, 05:08 AM	Two things come to my mind: first is a psionic telepath->Thrallherd which would get u two cohorts and as stated above followers who are renewed every 24 hours plus some real nice psi powers plus if u like to get a little sicko dip into the constructor prestige class from wotc minds eye and put some nasty little constructs on the field for even more mayhem! If u do this I 'd suggest taking overchannel and talented so u can spend some more power points on the constructs per round. the other idea would be a druid beastmaster depending on if your dm allows natural bond to affect your effectiv druid level for the additional animal companions. If not take just a one level dip add leadership and become a natures warrior, warshaper anything. That would give you a level 23 and a level 20 animal companion plus a cohort and lots of followers ... sounds not to bad to me. Another thing u could have a look at is the evangelist from complete divine who can turn enemies to his side with a song ... sound stupid but can really kick ass. I somehow recall a feat that allows you to use your strengt score instead of charisma to determine leadership value ... but i can 't remember where I saw it.
Wizard Random 08-01-05, 06:04 AM	You could just go Leadership,Might Makes Right, Take that orc prestige class, and i belive there are 3 other feats Not including Undead Leadership. I belive Khann the Destroyer did the math. You end up with around 310,000-400,000 Living followers ranging from lvl 1-10 and around 380,000 Undead followers ASSUMING might makes right Doesnt apply to undead eladership, otherwise that number would be higher, and the undead range from lvl 1-13. If you go epic with the right feats these numbers Double ( or i doubles the afformentioned numbers , so just cut them in half if i am wrong) and you get a stronger cohort.
happymoocow 08-01-05, 06:44 AM	I like the leadership feat when I am a gnome bard. I get a barriar cohort that's a psychic warrior and I ride him! It's a medium sized creature so it makes sense - sort of.
rsweeney 08-02-05, 07:29 PM	Cohorts.. (You don’t consult the table to see if your cohort gains levels, however, because cohorts earn experience on their own.) Does this mean your cohort can gain experience enough to place him at your level -2 even if your leadership score doesn't allow you to attract a cohort that high? If you don't advance your cohort to match the chart.. it doesn't seem reasonable to limit him according to the chart instead of the explicitly stated level -2.
ksbsnowowl 08-02-05, 09:55 PM	The Improved Cohort feat and the Legendary Leader PrC from Heroes of Battle could be useful. The improved cohort feat raises the max level of your cohort to your level -1, rather than your level -2.
Borin 08-02-05, 10:00 PM	Cohorts.. (You don’t consult the table to see if your cohort gains levels, however, because cohorts earn experience on their own.) Does this mean your cohort can gain experience enough to place him at your level -2 even if your leadership score doesn't allow you to attract a cohort that high? If you don't advance your cohort to match the chart.. it doesn't seem reasonable to limit him according to the chart instead of the explicitly stated level -2. Generally, no. I think it is stated your cohort gets xp like you on a ratio of [his level] / [your level], so he will always remain the same number of levels behind and never overtake you.
rsweeney 08-02-05, 11:14 PM	6th level character with poor leadership score gets 1st level cohort. Level, Character xp vs. Cohort xp 6) 15,000 vs. 0 7) 21,000 vs 1,000xp (l2) 8) 28,000 vs 1,000xp+(7000*2/7)=3,000xp(l3) 9) 36,000 vs 3,000xp+(8000*3/8)=6,000xp(l4) 10) 45,000 vs 6,000xp+(9000*4/9)=10,000xp(l5) 11) 55,000 vs 10,000xp+(10000*5/10)=15,000xp(l6) 12) 66,000 vs 15,000xp+(11000*6/11)=21.000xp(l7) 13) 78,000 vs 21,000+(12000*7/12)=28000xp(l8) 14) 91,000 vs 28000+(13000*8/13)=36000xp(l9) 15) 105000 vs 36000+9000xp = 45,000xp(l10) 16) 120000 vs 55,000xp(l11) 17) Never catching up seems to hold very well for the worst possible leadership score.... I think I'll run a spreadsheet on this to see if it holdes for all valuse of "leadership".
rsweeney 08-04-05, 05:36 PM	If I am not mistaken, under normal usage, the cohort will never 'overtake you'. However, a leader with a leadership score of 2 who takes a cohort at 6th level will have a 15th level cohort if he manages to keep the fellow alive for the entire time. Level Leader xp LS 2 Cohort xp LS3 Cohort xp LS4-5 Cohort xp LS6 Cohort xp LS7-8+ Cohort xp 1 0- - 2 1000- - 3 3000- - 4 6000- - 5 10000- - 6 15000 1 0 2 1000 3 3000 4 6000 4 6000 7 21000 2 1000 3 3000 4 6000 5 10000 5 10000 8 28000 3 3000 4 6000 5 10000 6 15000 6 15000 9 36000 4 6000 5 10000 6 15000 7 21000 7 21000 10 45000 5 10000 6 15000 7 21000 8 28000 8 28000 11 55000 6 15000 7 21000 8 28000 9 36000 9 36000 12 66000 7 21000 8 28000 9 36000 10 45000 10 45000 13 78000 8 28000 9 36000 10 45000 11 55000 11 55000 14 91000 9 36000 10 45000 11 55000 12 66000 12 66000 15 105000 10 45000 11 55000 12 66000 13 78000 13 78000 16 120000 11 55000 12 66000 13 78000 14 91000 14 91000 17 136000 12 66000 13 78000 14 91000 15 105000 15 105000 18 153000 13 78000 14 91000 15 105000 16 120000 16 120000 19 171000 14 91000 15 105000 16 120000 17 136000 17 136000 20 190000 15 105000 16 120000 17 136000 18 153000 18 153000
rsweeney 08-04-05, 05:46 PM	If the leader (-4 chr mod) at 6th level attracts and keeps a cohort alive until he reaches 20th level, then he has a 15th level cohort. If, however, he attracts a cohort at 20th level, he will only get a 12th level cohort. Thus, it is helpful to attract a cohort at 6th level and keep him or her alive for your career. Higher leadership scores at 6th level than 6 (i.e. no charisma bonus to leadership) have no impact whatsoever unless you manage to kill your cohort and need to attract a new one. Conclusion, if you can keep your cohort alive.. leadership is for everyone. It is most helpful for someone who has no penalties to their leadership score, but a fighter or a bard will be the same if the fighter has a +0 cha mod and the bard has a +5!
PhaedrusXY 08-04-05, 10:25 PM	What about Undead Leadership (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6256550&postcount=28)? The best suggestion I've seen for improving it lately was to use a Ring Gate so your followers can safely command their contingent of Undead through it from the safety of your stronghold. :P
rsweeney 08-04-05, 10:42 PM	The pattern seems to hold pretty well as far as I can tell. The cohort goes up by levels as fast as you go up. They are always the same number of levels behind you as when you start. This does, as stated make us well aware that you need to pick up a cohort as soon as possible and cannot replace him. Thrallherd, then, requires a really good leadership score so that you 'replace' your cohorts at your level -2. Dreadmaster allows two additional cohorts. Obviously, it is probably difficult to have both Thrallheard and the last two levels of the Dreadmaster prestige class from Faiths and Pantheons. It might be possible to get a mount that has the leadership feat. Especially if you are commanding a special mount who commands other creatures of its type. Defenders of the Faith has details on attracting a Pegasi, I believe, which could easily be rationalized as trying to gain followers of other pegasi.
rsweeney 08-04-05, 10:52 PM	This was mentioned, and if I understand.. it greatly augments the necromantic warlord's forces. The link you provided was really freakish! Many posts on these boards can be overwhelming like that. At Mystic Theurge would be able to command undead as a cleric, wizard, and as his undead leadership feat allowed. Each of his followers can be a wizard or cleric or mystic theurge who can do the same. Yes, that get's very powerful very quickly. All the uberleaders seem to be evil...
SigmaJargon 08-04-05, 11:20 PM	Getting your leadership score past 25, pre-epic, is pretty pointless. I mean, really. You get no further benefits. Your cohort doesn't improve, you don't get any more followers, and the followers you have don't get any better. As a stage for *EPIC*, then yeah: it has a lot of merrit. For normal play, though, it's pretty pointless.Let me toss a what if out here. Say you are a 20th level chameleon with a bard cohort, a leadership score of 25 or higher, and a charisma of 25 or higher. Say the bardic cohort uses Inspire Greatness, granting the chameleon an additional 2 HD, temporarily boosting his ECL to 22 (By the official DnD glossary definition, ECL is the sum of your HD and your LA). Given this situation, what if - WHAT IF the chameleon uses his bonus feat to take Epic Leadership? Then is a leadership score of higher than 25 so very useless?
rsweeney 08-05-05, 11:04 PM	Ok, seems to me that if you have a wizard.. You can attract a cohort at 6th level that is 4th level. The xp he gains is 2/3rds of the xp that you gain. He must survive. So, you sacrifice your equipment to keep him competative. If you are an item crafter, for every 3xp you spent on crafting, he can spend 2xp. Thus, early on you can enhance your survival by crafting scrolls which you can try to sell to fellow party members or work on custom crafting wondrous items for your party members. You need to collect gold. When you get to 8th level, you have your cohort attract a cohort who is also a crafting wizard. Personally, I'd be angling all the characters to mystic theurge to have maximum spells at your disposal for crafting into items. If your cohort's cohort spends 4xp, your cohort spends 6 xp, you spend 9xp. You get to approximately double the xp you are spending on crafting items because your underlings are creating items with their own xp. As long as everyone remains in balance and you have time for crafting, you should have better equipment available than your fellow party members. When you get to 10th level, you are behind your fellow party members in exprience because of what you've sent on magic item creation along the way. However, you have a cohort of 8th level who has one of 6th level who has one of 4th level crafting stuff. You should have made money along the way as you craft for base price and sell for double price. Being blessed with relative wealth, then, would make your 'team' competative. At the very least, once you get to 10th level you can start making effect permenant.
Urnsk 08-05-05, 11:47 PM	Let me toss a what if out here. Say you are a 20th level chameleon with a bard cohort, a leadership score of 25 or higher, and a charisma of 25 or higher. Say the bardic cohort uses Inspire Greatness, granting the chameleon an additional 2 HD, temporarily boosting his ECL to 22 (By the official DnD glossary definition, ECL is the sum of your HD and your LA). Given this situation, what if - WHAT IF the chameleon uses his bonus feat to take Epic Leadership? Then is a leadership score of higher than 25 so very useless? Yes, because you would need Inspire Greatness on you permanently to gain those 2 HP, because you have to recruit your cohort and followers; they don't just magicly appear when you take the feat. When that Inspire Greatness goes away, so does your feat (You no longer meet the Epic requirement). Of course, this is assuming that temporary hit dice = hit dice, which I'm not convinced. Do you gain an extra feat (if you hit the next feat-granting level), skill points, of ability score for hitting the higher level? No, you don't, so there are obviously some differences. In fact, it only says that it counts as regular hit dice for spells such as sleep.
PhaedrusXY 08-06-05, 12:34 PM	The link you provided was really freakish!Why thank you! :tiphat: :P