Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Khan the Destroyer 07-04-06, 03:04 AM	I have played in a few games where our main bruiser gets toyed around with by caster types. My brother for instance played an orc barb/fighter/eye of gruumsh/half-orc paragon/berserk/frenzied berserker. He could dish out tremendous damage... when he wasn't getting dominated. Yeah, his measily like +3 will save did a lot to counter his awesome combat abilities. It wasn't until late game that we could salvage it with a Mind Blank effect. The same thing happened in a more recent game with my character and another Frenzied Berserker (I was a fighter barbarian that specialized in trips and bull rushes, he was the damage dealer). I figure a straight fighter will have an even tougher time against will saves, since he doesn't have a rage effect to boost it up (well, now he has Combat Focus). I have been toying around with a different fighter concept. One not so much about damage, but more about being able to withstand the enemy while the other party members deal with taking it out (sort of like, an opposite approach to the usual 'I want to deal a crapload of damage!'). Further, I wanted the fighter to be a viable tank even without the use of magical items. To that end, I came up with this build: (Just a simple warning... the Bull-Headed feat is a regional feat. So, part of this build (the will save) can only work in Faerun.) Soldier of Fortune Human Fighter 20 1. Iron Will (hum), Bull-Headed (level), Dodge (B) 2. Shield Specialization (B) 3. Cumbrous Will (level) 4. Shield Ward (B) 5. 6. Elusive Attack (class feature), Quick Recovery (level) 7. 8. Combat Expertise (B) 9. Lightning Reflexes (level) 10. Combat Focus (B) 11. 12. Combat Stability (B), Cumbrous Reflexes (level) 13. 14. Combat Vigor (B) 15. Combat Acrobat (level) 16. Combat Dodge (B) 17. 18. Close Quarters Fighting (B) 19. 20. Improved Combat Expertise (B) AC: 34 (This is without magic or factoring in dexterity. With Improved Combat Expertise, he could add another 15, making the AC 49) Touch AC: 29 (Improved Combat Expertise can increase his Touch AC to 44) 10 (base) 3 (fighting defensively, ranks in tumble) 3 (heavy shield, shield specialization) 6 (elusive attack) 2 (dodge, combat defense) 5 (breast plate) 5 (combat exertise) If we factor in magical items, both the armor and shield will have a +5 enhancement bonus, increasing his AC and Touch AC to 44 and 34 respectively (or 59 and 49 with Improved Combat Expertise). With the Defending magical property (on the spiked shield), that's another +5 bonus to both regular AC and Touch AC (49/64 and 39/54) Grapple: 31 (plus strength and any bonus from AoO damage) 20 (bab) 3 (shield ward) 8 (combat stability) Again, this is without magic. A +5 shield will increase the bonus from Shield Ward to +8. And a +8 strength modifier (doable by 20th level) will make the total bonus to resist grapples +44. This can be increased even further with the Close Quarters Fighting feat. Trip: Combat Acrobat He needs to roll a DC 20 balance check to negate any effect that would make him prone. So, with a maxed out Balance, he gets +11 in ranks and a +2 synergy bonus from tumble. Throw in some dexterity, and he should be able to make it most of the time. This is one of the areas I'm not satisfied with yet. In order to get Combat Acrobat, a human fighter with a 13 intelligence will have to spend every single skill point maxing these two skills out. On top of that, I would prefer bracers of armor to not only maintain speed, but avoid any armor check penalties. This will be the one ability most dependent on items. A skill boosting item can boost the check to an auto-success (though I didn't see an item in the DMG that boosted Balance checks). Saves: (These are the base saving throws and feat-based bonuses. These don't include ability score modifiers or any bonuses from a Cloak of Resistance.) Fortitude: 12 12 (base) Fortitude saves will be the average for a fighter. Meaning, you should be pretty good at them. Reflex: 14 6 (base) 2 (lightning reflexes) 6 (cumbrous reflexes) Cumbrous Reflexes adds a +6 bonus whenever you activate it to make a reflex saving throw. The price is being dazed and prone after the saving throw (regardless of the outcome of the roll). Combat Acrobat can negate the prone effect, and Quick Recovery can negate the dazing effect. Since your will save is so huge, chances are you will make it. Add a Ring of Evasion and you won't lose precious hit points to breath weapons and area of effect damage spells. Will: 20 6 (base) 2 (iron will) 2 (bull-headed) 6 (cumbrous will) 4 (combat focus) Cumbrous Will adds +6 to your will saving throw when you activate it, but it leaves you shakened for the rest of the encounter. Bull-Headed makes you immune to the shaken condition. Your will saving throw will be as good as the will saving throw of a cleric with a 30 wisdom. So... 1. Great Armor Class and Touch AC means monsters will keep swinging and won't hit. Casters will shoot rays and won't hit. This translates to enemies wasting actions, allies not getting hurt, and creating the opportunity for your party members to whup ass. 2. Great Saves will protect you from many different effects. Your fortitude will be average for a fighter, but poisons and many death effects should be no worry for you. Your reflex is on par with a rogue of equal level, so you shouldn't lose too much health to AoE spells, keeping you fit for melee (especially with a Ring of Evasion). Your will save will ensure you don't get dominated, tricked by illusions, imprisoned, etc. 3. Great modifiers against Trips, Grapples, and Bull Rushes. A simple skill check negates trip attempts, and your grapple modifier to resist being grappled is impressive. Your roll to resist bull rushes will be a d20 +strength + up to 16. That +16 can negate a colossal creature's size bonus, which will level the playing field quite a bit. 4. And don't forget, Fast Healing 4, for a bit more endurance in battle. Slowly, you can heal back the damage you take from the few attacks that do get through. The whole point behind this concept is to be a better barrier between the enemy and your allies. I think this build pulls it off pretty well. That said, he are some concerns: 1. MAD. This guy needs a 13 dexterity, intelligence, and wisdom. Then he needs strength and constitution. His only real dump stat is charisma (and I don't find Ego Whip too much of a threat with a 20+ will save). With 25 point buy, you're kind of... spread thin. 2. Not as tough as I'd like. I would love to add Endurance and Diehard in there, just for the theme. Further, the Enduring Life feat would help against the effects of a vampire's touch, or other negative level abilities that don't allow a saving throw (Energy Drain). I also couldn't fit in Elusive Target (though with such a high AC, any non- shock trooper power attacker shouldn't hit anyways). There just aren't enough feats. Improved Toughness would have been nice as well. 3. No offensive capabilities. I know, I said I wanted to focus on resisting attacks rather than dishing out the damage, but having a few options would be nice. As of now, his usual routine is to use Elusive Attack for one attack as a full-round action, getting the +6 boost to AC. His to-hit should be fine, assuming he doesn't have to dump it into Combat Expertise, but his damage will be piddly. Again though, this is a secondary concern. This guy plays a role slightly similar to the PHB2 Knight. Protect your allies. Then let them squash the opposition. Equipment (not needed, but nice to have): Ring of Evasion- This will actually be useful with that high reflex save. No longer fear dragon breath weapons, meteor swarms, or even dungeon traps. Avoid all damage from these effects to take it somewhere else :). Bracers of Armor- Though the AC boost from an enhanced armor is higher, the bracers won't have an armor check penalty, and the Ring of Evasion won't function in armor (I think). You can enhance bracers as armor (according to AaEG). Also, your speed won't be affected. Cloak of Resistance- You probably would have had one anyways. Mostly for your fortitude save in this instance, just keep pumping up those saving throws. Dancing Defending Shield of Arrow Deflection- If I could somehow get Power Attack in there (though I am loathe to get rid of any feat), a dancing shield would maintain the shield bonus and allow me to Power Attack with a longsword in both hands (if needed). Arrow Deflection is just more protection against ranged attacks. The Defending property on shield spikes will increase my AC without affecting my to-hit on the longsword attacks (though this needs to be enhanced seperately from the shield, which might get expensive). I know someone will most likely suggest to get rid of the feats that boost his reflex save. I know that reflex saves are usually considered to be the least important of the saving throws. But in this case, I am stressing his resilience to as much as possible. Hit points lost to AoE spells and breath weapons are still hit points lost. Further, two of the four feats needed to pull it off actually make him almost immune to tripping and stun/daze effects. So, any thoughts and suggestions? Is this sort of build viable? Does the fighter have to be the primary damage dealer, or can he simply soak up the hits and let the wizard and rogue filet the monsters? Assuming team tactics, the wizard can polymorph the fighter, making him even more beastly, and then the rogue can flank/SA and the wizard can maintain battlefield control and sling attack spells. Meanwhile the cleric takes care of buffs and healing.
Ivarrius 07-04-06, 03:09 AM	A good tank? Play a paladin. Despite the fact that they suffer slightly from MAD, they can be some of the best tanks in the game. High Saves, Full BAB, Heavy Armor, Turning ability (which is where a lot of their power can come from). If you are worried about will saves, but want to be able to take a hit or nine, this is the easiest way to get there. I am no optimizer king, so I can only speak from personal, however limited, experience. Edit -- Find a way, either by feats or items or prc's to get blind fight, or blind sense. That always helps a Melee character.
Khan the Destroyer 07-04-06, 03:14 AM	Edit -- Find a way, either by feats or items or prc's to get blind fight, or blind sense. That always helps a Melee character. Very true. I was tempted to oust Dodge/Combat Defense for Blind-Fight/Combat Awareness. In the end, I opted for a higher AC/Touch AC. I know a paladin makes a good tank, but the point was to make a very resilient fighter. A fighter that focused more on defense than on offense.
marcus_antonius 07-04-06, 03:21 AM	Dwarven Ranger/Barbarian/Deepwarden Con to AC, Rage, 2 Good Saves, 6+Int Skills....just rocks (for more Info just ask ;))
Khan the Destroyer 07-04-06, 03:30 AM	Dwarven Ranger/Barbarian/Deepwarden Con to AC, Rage, 2 Good Saves, 6+Int Skills....just rocks (for more Info just ask ;)) Those are cool too :). But again, I'm going with straight fighter here. Not a ranger, not a barbarian, not a paladin. A fighter. That can shrug off a lot of attacks that standard parties usually see. The idea is basically like a soldier that relies on nothing but his own determination and skills to outlive his enemies and allies. No magical abilities, no supernatural effects, no limited use boosts.
Ivarrius 07-04-06, 03:30 AM	Very true. I was tempted to oust Dodge/Combat Defense for Blind-Fight/Combat Awareness. In the end, I opted for a higher AC/Touch AC. I know a paladin makes a good tank, but the point was to make a very resilient fighter. A fighter that focused more on defense than on offense. No problem, wasn;t sure if you were aware. Enjoy! I think the many feats of a fighter can make a crazy powerful defensive tank. Try Psychic Warrior as well. Manifesting some of their powers as swift actions can make a huge difference too. Some of which give DR 5/-, and some other fun abilities.
PhoenixInferno 07-04-06, 03:34 AM	The focus on survivability is admirable, but it seems to me you've got no feats for offense. A tank has to do two jobs - absorb damage and deal damage.
Khan the Destroyer 07-04-06, 03:48 AM	The focus on survivability is admirable, but it seems to me you've got no feats for offense. Yeah, not a single one. I was thinking of an AoO build that took advantage of Active Shield Defense (PHB2). You can take a full defense action and still make AoO's. With Robilar's Gambit, you get to hit them for attacking you. Chances are they won't hit, and you still get to attack. But I don't have enough feats open for Combat Reflexes, Robilar's, Deft Opportunist, etc. A tank has to do two jobs - absorb damage and deal damage. Agreed. I guess with the groups I play with, I see a difference in what might be considered sterotypical. Usually, our casters focus mostly on damage dealing spells, and our fighters are pretty much weak to everything that isn't HP damage (though sometimes that is pretty hard to deal with as well). Even our cleric complained that he had to dispel the fear effect on the barb and I because he wanted to wade into melee with his holy weapon. So, do you think that a caster and perhaps the rogue (flanking, assuming the target can be SA'ed) aren't enough to deal with higher level monsters? Also, what sort of offensive feats would you suggest for a sword and board fighter? Obviously, feats are at a premium :).
PhoenixInferno 07-04-06, 04:00 AM	Immediately that comes to mind are the Shield related feats. +1 shield AC? C'mon - is that REALLY worth a feat? Yes, Shield Ward is cool, but I think you could do better if you could get Wilder 2/Paladin 2 - CHA to saves and touch AC, plus it opens up Heavy Armor Optimization -> Deflective Armor. Between the two of those, you get +1 armor AC, +1 max DEX bonus (potentially another point of AC) and lets you retain your Armor bonus vs Touch attacks. Downsides to this, now that I think about it - eats more feats and more MAD. But the Shield feats can go - trade it for Power Attack and...something else.
Disciple 07-04-06, 08:48 AM	Tanks doesnt have to deal damage, but they have to be annoying in some way or the other. The presented build does a great job surviving everything, but he has no way of harming the opposition. As far as I can see he has a base move of 20' and no other way of getting quickly into melee. And if he gets into melee he will have no way of harming the enemy. He will be worthless as a tank as the opposition will ignore him. Why hammer away at an invincible tower of steel when the squishy mage is lobbing fireballs at you? If mages really annoy you try putting 5 levels of "occult slayer" into some tankbuild...
Keldar 07-04-06, 11:53 AM	A few basic points. First, Cumberous Reflexes doesn't seem very efficent to me. Not only does it eat up two feats to make use of that +6 Reflex save, but actually using Quick Recovery nessecitates a move action, negating Elusive Attack for a round. Considering the relative necessity of Reflex Saves vs. AC, I'd say those feats aren't quite worth it. With all that MAD you've got going on your unlikely to have more than a 20 Dex, perfect for a +5 Mithril Breastplate, which cost a bit less than a +6 Bracers of Armor and give 4 more AC! Deflective Armor is a fairly good feat, though without dipping into a psionic class, eats up a feat for Wild Talent, and diverges a bit from your concept. Still in a world populated with supernatural abilities, its not unreasonable for even the most martial of characters to dabble. Psychic Warrior gives you Psionic Focus, and one more total feat. If you do decide to move around feats, Able Learner can give you Tumbe and Balance at half cost. Sticking to the Martial theme, though diverging from strict Fighter, the Knight can build up your Will save and give a minor bonus or two, though it cost feats (perhapse the one for Cumberous Reflexes). The big problem with this build is how easily ignoreable it is in a fight. Without any offensive tricks any bright foe is liable to ignore the cautious fighter any chew the wizard and cleric up. On the up side, you'll probably survive to haul thier corpses off to get resurected. ;) You definately need to sacrifice some defense for offense. I'd take it from Reflex, but thats me. A good change from the typical 'Brain of Pudding' Fighter though.
obtusehobbit 07-04-06, 02:15 PM	A Simple Solution to the inability to deal damage is to use the Goad Feat to force those Weak Willed Damage Machines to fight your character instead of the other Characters. The only problem is that is adds more MAD to the build Requiring a decent Chr. The another option is since you already have Shield Specialization use Agile Shield Fighter and Improved Shield Bash to fight with both your shield and sword increasing your combat potential.
moomooacow 07-04-06, 02:49 PM	You should think about picking up Improved Trip and/or Improved Disarm. Use your AoOs to either Disarm or Trip your opponents. Spring Attack would be extremely useful, but you only have a move of 20 so it isn't that great. Instead, think about taking Mounted Combat and Ride-By Attack. Fighting mounted will remove your main weakness - immobility - and make you a much more terrible force on the battlefield. Also, it increases the space that you occupy so you can cut off more angles between you and the squishies. I actually think that using a mount is definitely a must in this build, otherwise you'll just end up sluffing about the battlefield trying to cut off angles and challenge opponents - they'll run circles around you.
Khan the Destroyer 07-04-06, 03:55 PM	But the Shield feats can go - trade it for Power Attack and...something else. Well, I could get rid of Shield Specialization and Shield Ward for Power Attack and Parrying Shield. I would still have my shield bonus to touch AC, and now I have Power Attack. I could also trade in Dodge and Combat Defense for Combat Strike and some other feat. That is a bit more offensive power, and I have another feat open. First, Cumberous Reflexes doesn't seem very efficent to me. Not only does it eat up two feats to make use of that +6 Reflex save, but actually using Quick Recovery nessecitates a move action, negating Elusive Attack for a round. Considering the relative necessity of Reflex Saves vs. AC, I'd say those feats aren't quite worth it. I know. Originally, this ws just a fighter build with all good saves. I used my fighter feats to specialize in AoO's and tripping. I took that concept, threw out the AoO's, and added in more defense. Cumbrous Reflexes is in there for the sake of completeness. The big problem with this build is how easily ignoreable it is in a fight. Without any offensive tricks any bright foe is liable to ignore the cautious fighter any chew the wizard and cleric up. On the up side, you'll probably survive to haul thier corpses off to get resurected. You definately need to sacrifice some defense for offense. I'd take it from Reflex, but thats me. A good change from the typical 'Brain of Pudding' Fighter though. Well, I could manage two feats by switching out Shield Specialization and Combat Defense. A Simple Solution to the inability to deal damage is to use the Goad Feat to force those Weak Willed Damage Machines to fight your character instead of the other Characters. The only problem is that is adds more MAD to the build Requiring a decent Chr. I had considered this as well. But it doesn't seem like it would be at all viable. I would have to increase charisma significantly to even hope of forcing creatures to fail their saves against it. You should think about picking up Improved Trip and/or Improved Disarm. Use your AoOs to either Disarm or Trip your opponents. Spring Attack would be extremely useful, but you only have a move of 20 so it isn't that great. Instead, think about taking Mounted Combat and Ride-By Attack. Fighting mounted will remove your main weakness - immobility - and make you a much more terrible force on the battlefield. Also, it increases the space that you occupy so you can cut off more angles between you and the squishies. I actually think that using a mount is definitely a must in this build, otherwise you'll just end up sluffing about the battlefield trying to cut off angles and challenge opponents - they'll run circles around you. That doesn't sound half bad. But I can't afford ranks in ride. I could: 1. Grab Able Learner, but I need to swap out another feat. 2. Use Prone Attack instead of Combat Acrobat to negate Cumrbous Reflexes' prone effect. Prone Attack is pretty conditional though. By getting rid of Shield Ward, I lose out on my bonuses against Bull Rushes and Grapples. The grapple bonus can be salvaged by Close Quarters Fighting. And as far as I can tell, not many monsters use bull rushes. This may not be such a big loss, especially since Parrying Shield keeps me the shield bonus to touch AC's. The Shield Specialization feat can be swapped out for Mounted Combat. Getting rid of Dodge and Combat Defense lowers my overall AC (and touch AC) by 2. In return, I gain a +4 bonus to attack and damage for 1 turn. Not terrific in my opinion, especially since it rids you of your other combat form benefits. But it is an option. Also, I can grab Ride-By-Attack. Then the fighter can harass the opponent and deal double damage with a lance.
CygnusDarius 07-04-06, 04:02 PM	Goliath Ranger3/Barbarian4/Wildrunner 3/ Champion of Gwinhargwiff 9. The build is deadly (IMHO) and good for taking damage as well as dealing it. Pick a couple of scimitars (or a scimitar and a kukri) and you'll hit almost every time.
PhoenixInferno 07-04-06, 04:05 PM	I could also trade in Dodge and Combat Defense for Combat Strike and some other feat. That is a bit more offensive power, and I have another feat open. Don't do that - you lose the Elusive Target + Combat Defense synergy, which is too good to lose.
Belldandy 07-04-06, 04:28 PM	Elusive Attack (class feature), what is this? A class feature? I am confused. Paladin 4-6 Fighter 6-4 PRC 10 a Nice base. You'll have feats and specialisation. Full BA Cha to saves, as well a turning to add to Divine might or Divine vigor... The world is a fun place! :D Alternatively, depending on the level of the game, if it's level 8+ (or so) PLAY A DRUID! AND MASH THINGS IN BEAR FORM! - you may have to give up diplomacy... not that you had hat as a fighter anyhows. But i you're scared of wills aves, I agree with him up there. Paladins are the way to go! :D
Khan the Destroyer 07-04-06, 04:34 PM	Don't do that - you lose the Elusive Target + Combat Defense synergy, which is too good to lose. This guy doesn't actually have Elusive Target. He has the class feature Elusive Attack, in PHB2. He makes one attack as a full-round action, and (by level 20) gains a +6 dodge bonus to AC. Paladin 4-6 Fighter 6-4 PRC 10 a Nice base. You'll have feats and specialisation. Full BA Cha to saves, as well a turning to add to Divine might or Divine vigor... The world is a fun place! Alternatively, depending on the level of the game, if it's level 8+ (or so) PLAY A DRUID! AND MASH THINGS IN BEAR FORM! - you may have to give up diplomacy... not that you had hat as a fighter anyhows. But i you're scared of wills aves, I agree with him up there. Paladins are the way to go! I probably should have been more clear in my first post. I'm aware that other options can be great tanks. And yes, if I want good will saves with great tanking abilities I could play a druid. The point here is to try and optimize a straight fighter build to the point where it is very difficult to get him out of your hair. A fighter that all day can avoid effects that target his fort saves, ref saves, will saves, can evade regular attacks and touch attacks, and is difficult to push around on the battlefield. The problem is of course, that right now, he isn't dangerous enough to warrant wanting him out of your hair.
Senevri 07-04-06, 04:41 PM	Bear Druids have touch AC problems. With a build like that, and putting some to the usual - IE, magic shield + armor and whatnot... you can invest more money on your weapon. Make it a quad-elemental, and that 4 dice starts to hurt. Also, strenght items. You can put off getting that bit higher armor enchantment for a bit later. On a different note, what's the AC a Fighter/Duelist can get?
PhoenixInferno 07-04-06, 04:59 PM	You should get Elusive Target - it'll help you out with non-AC defenses. For instance, you could become completely immune to Power Attack. And of course, Cumbrous Reflexes + Quick Recovery is a little bit of overkill. I would say Close Quarters Fighting could be replaced by Weapon Supremacy (PHBII) but then you'd have to replace like...5 additional feats. Too big of a deviation.
Eidolon Faer 07-05-06, 01:34 PM	If I might make a recommendation: 1. The Hexblade class is what you're looking for. Arcane Resistance + Mettle + good Will save progression means nobody's likely to land a Hold Person or Dominate on you. 2. Since you've mentioned an Eye of Gruumsh, it appears that alignment is not a huge issue. Thus I suggest the following: Rogue 2 / Hexblade 14 / Blackguard 4. Feats: Power Attack and Improved Sunder (for Blackguard entry) Force of Personality (CAdv, to make your Will Saves unassailable) Goad, Combat Panache, and Robilar's Gambit (trust me, it's sick) Arterial Strike (for when you get Cursed Blade) Items: Weapon with the Sudden Stunning feature (DMG-2 page 261.) Cloak of Resistance (best you can afford) Luckstone Wand of Mirror Image Circlet of Persuasion As much Charisma as you can possibly afford.
cvazi 07-05-06, 03:59 PM	IIRC, MoI is one of the fighter's best friends. "Shape Soulmeld: Planar Ward" grants all the mental protections of the "Protection from Evil" spell. Add a psionic race (like the Maened or the Elan) or taking "Hidden Talent: Adenaline Boost" will allow you to qualify for the psionic requirement for "Deflect Armor." I am away from my notes on my fighter build, but I will try to find and post it when I get home today.